Sampras Says Nadal Challenges Federer's GOAT Claim

Does Nadal's GS H2H have any affect on Fed's goat claim?


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This was posted by babbette, but it got last in a thread about mono and knees :cry:

From his prominent perch in the Royal Box behind a pair of stylish shades, Pete Sampras joined Hall of Famers Rod Laver, Bjorn Borg and Manolo Santana in watching Roger Federer break the Grand Slam record they shared.

The second-seeded Federer withstood an inspired Andy Roddick rally in the fourth set, then scored his sole service break in the last game to earn a dramatic 5-7, 7-6(6), 7-6(5), 3-6, 16-14 triumph to regain the Wimbledon championship, recapture the World No. 1 ranking and re-write tennis history in stirring style. After the match, Sampras and John McEnroe were among the former champions who dubbed Federer with the mythical Greatest of All Time title.

"I have to give it to him," Sampras said after the record-breaking 77-game final. "The critics say Laver. And (Rafael) Nadal has beaten him a few times at majors. He's won all the majors, he's won 15 now, he's going to win a few more here. So in my book he is (the GOAT)."

Yet, Sampras concedes there is one player who threatens the Federer's status as GOAT — Rafael Nadal. The World No. 2 owns a 13-7 career record vs. Federer, including three consecutive wins in major finals.

In a conference call with the media today to promote his exhibition match against Marat Safin on July 27 at UCLA on opening night of the L.A. Tennis Open, Sampras conceded the quandary Federer faces is that while many champions have named the Swiss stylist the Greatest Of All Time, you can make a clear the case he is not even the best of this time.

Skeptics point to Nadal's mastery of Federer in their head-to-head series and the fact Nadal has won six of their eight meetings in major finals — including victories on three different surfaces in the Australian Open final, Roland Garros final and Wimbledon final — as a sign the strong-willed Spaniard has the World No. 1's number.

While Sampras himself has bestowed the GOAT on Federer, he suggested today Federer must find a way to beat Nadal consistently in order to truly be called the GOAT.

"Tough question to answer. I do understand the argument as being the best ever you have to be the best of your generation and he has come up short against Nadal," Sampras said. "I can see the point and it's hard to answer it. It's not done yet. Roger's careeer isn't done yet and he has to beat (Nadal) and he's got to beat him in the final of majors. In my book he is (the greatest of all time), but he has to figure this kid out. He has to beat him. You've gotta be the man of your generation. Roger certainly is the man of his generation, but he's got to figure out how to beat Nadal."

Federer can play shots that only a tennis genius can produce. While Federer's brilliance is undeniable, his losing streak to Nadal makes me wonder: was his genius magnified by the fact he was playing people like Hewitt and Roddick in major finals who could not take advantage of his vulnerabilities the way Rafael Nadal can?

That's one of the challenges of rating players beyond their generation as I did in statistically examining the greatest players of all time: Federer is unquestionably a great champion, but was his dominance due in part to the fact that there was no one to push him except Nadal?

Sampras, for example, had Andre Agassi at his best (at least most years), Boris Becker, Jim Courier, Stefan Edberg, Gustavo Kuerten, Richard Krajicek, Michael Stich, Goran Ivanisevic, Michael Chang, Marcelo Rios, Ivan Lendl, Petr Korda and Thomas Muster.

It seems to me that the competition was a lot stronger than the competition Federer has played over the years. Now I think it's changing with Nadal pursuing his own career Grand Slam and Andy Murray, Novak Djokovic and Roddick all improving. Federer's foes in the top four are all quick and Nadal, Murray and Djokovic all have better backhands.

Sampras and Andre Agassi are two of the greatest Grand Slam champions of all time and over the years their riveting rivalry has produced some timeless tennis — and tireless debate among fans over which will own the more prominent place in history.

The archrivals began the 2002 U.S. Open as the two oldest seeded players in the draw and concluded it with a climactic clash that saw Sampras capture his 14th and final career Grand Slam crown with a 6-3, 6-4, 5-7, 6-4 victory over archrival Agassi. It was the 34th and final professional meeting between the old rivals with Sampras holding a 20-14 career edge.

Recalling his rivalry with Agassi, Sampras said if Agassi had led their head-to-head series, it would have caused the 14-time Grand Slam champion to question his own status as his generation's top player.

"It would bother me if I had a losing record against Andre in majors," Sampras said. "Does it mean I was the greatest or not the greatest? The greatest of all time is (a label) we want to pin it on someone. With the numbers you have to give it to Roger; with (Federer's) record against Nadal you might not give it to him. If I was 7-13 against Andre it would be hard to say I was the best of my generation. It's hard to give a definitive answer when he's not done yet. Roger knows he has to figure out this kid, but it's a tough match up. Nadal is one of the few guys who believes he is better than him."

Sampras said he believes Federer's most formidable foe on Wimbledon's Centre Court could be himself — a big server who could bring the heat, attack net and pressure the multi-talented Swiss into hitting shots from defensive positions on court. Laver himself said he would give Sampras the edge on grass over Federer because of Sampras' searing serve and his ability to attack.

"A true serve and volleyer that's willing to come in and put the pressure on him (would be a threat)," Sampras said. "As big as Andy serves I don't think anyone really scares him. I think my game would make him a little bit more uncomfortable. I would obviously come in on both serves and put the pressure on his backhand. Would I beat him? I felt at my best on grass I was unbeatable there. It's a flattering comment (Laver made). Do I think I could have beaten Roger in my prime? Sure, I don't think anyone could beat me in my prime on grass. Roger probably feels unbeatable now. He'd be a tough guy to break, especially if he was hitting 50 aces. It would be a great match up."
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
he's not saying anything that hasn't been mentioned before. He makes a valid point. lmao@ the " I don't think any could beat me in my prime on grass." Boy if roger had said that, everyone would have a field day. And the samprastards get on roger's case for arrogance.
 
he's not saying anything that hasn't been mentioned before. He makes a valid point. lmao@ the " I don't think any could beat me in my prime on grass." Boy if roger had said that, everyone would have a field day. And the samprastards get on roger's case for arrogance.

Sampras never lost a Wimbledon final at his best he was unbeatable on grass.
 

egn

Hall of Fame
Spot on by Sampras. Fed needs to score some more wins against Nadal to claim his GOAT status. Win some big matches against him and score some wins on hardcourts against him. Nothing more needs to be said.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
What's the flattering comment that laver made? Pete alludes to it at the end of the article.

Laver said he gives the edge to sampras on grass over federer because of his serve and ability to attack.

I bet sampras and federer would have been one hell of a rivalry, would have been really great to see.
 

JeMar

Legend
It's extremely short-sighted to take two player's H2H as the end-all measuring stick between the two.

The fact is that Federer has performed much better against the field than Nadal has. Nadal has been taken out by so-so players on multiple occasions at the game's biggest stages after winning his maiden slam, while Federer has raised to the occasion in just about every instance.

There's a reason why the first and second seed have to go through six opponents before they get to play their opposite in the draw. THE FIELD MATTERS. If you just look at their simple H2H and say that Nadal is clearly the better player, you're missing a huge portion of what makes tennis so fun to follow. If the field didn't matter, we could just have entire grand slams decided by one match at the very beginning, and the rest of the players wouldn't have to bother to show up.

This game is about match ups, and Nadal's (fortunately for him) matches up extremely well against someone like Federer, but just the same, it also matches up badly against big, strong, flat hitters like a Blake and Berdych. Federer's game matches up badly against Nadal, but it matches up very well against the same kinds of players that Nadal struggles against.

Again, RECORDS AGAINST THE FIELD MATTER.
 

tintin

Professional
Pete I'd focus more on why you never made the finals in Paris or won more tournaments on the red clay in Europe :roll:
 

bolo

G.O.A.T.
Laver said he gives the edge to sampras on grass over federer because of his serve and ability to attack.

I bet sampras and federer would have been one hell of a rivalry, would have been really great to see.

There would have been some great matches Their only match is probably in the top 5 matches I have seen.
 
It's extremely short-sighted to take two player's H2H as the end-all measuring stick between the two.

The fact is that Federer has performed much better against the field than Nadal has. Nadal has been taken out by so-so players on multiple occasions at the game's biggest stages after winning his maiden slam, while Federer has raised to the occasion in just about every instance.

There's a reason why the first and second seed have to go through six opponents before they get to play their opposite in the draw. THE FIELD MATTERS. If you just look at their simple H2H and say that Nadal is clearly the better player, you're missing a huge portion of what makes tennis so fun to follow. If the field didn't matter, we could just have entire grand slams decided by one match at the very beginning, and the rest of the players wouldn't have to bother to show up.

This game is about match ups, and Nadal's (fortunately for him) matches up extremely well against someone like Federer, but just the same, it also matches up badly against big, strong, flat hitters like a Blake and Berdych. Federer's game matches up badly against Nadal, but it matches up very well against the same kinds of players that Nadal struggles against.

Again, RECORDS AGAINST THE FIELD MATTER.


Thats the problem the rest of the field aint great.
 

380pistol

Banned
he's not saying anything that hasn't been mentioned before. He makes a valid point. lmao@ the " I don't think any could beat me in my prime on grass." Boy if roger had said that, everyone would have a field day. And the samprastards get on roger's case for arrogance.

The difference is that's Sampras' personal belief. Sampras has said "Agassi made me a better player", while Federer said (after French Open win) "No. Maybe cuz he's a lefty, but I don't think he's made me better. I think I made him (and everyone) else better".

See the difference?? 4-1 vs 2-5.
 

フェデラー

Hall of Fame
how does it tarnish fed? if fed never had nadal he would just have been goat 3 years ago and sampras would just say no one challenged him. Sampras IS bitter. I mean Federer is what like 120-0 against people out of the top 5 in slams? Nadal gets beaten by people like Tsonga, Soderling, Murray (before being 4 in the world) etc. Plus I feel that Fed wont lost to anyone inside the top 5, excluding Nadal, this summer.
 
So if Nadal's H2H challenges Fed's claim to goatness, what about Borg and McEnroe? Borg was owned by McEnroe in his last year, and probably retired because of that (did he ever say why, btw?).

Fed is probably the greatest (expect maybe Laver), but one thing that Sampras can claim is that no one in his generation could dominate him. But then again he needed 15 years for his record.
 

JeMar

Legend
Thats the problem the rest of the field aint great.

That's your opinion. Anyone of any consequence has stated that the field these days is stronger than it is in the past. People on this site that claim otherwise always say, "WELL WHERE ARE ALL THERE[sic] SLAMS," which is equally as short-sighted as the H2H comparisons. Yes, two guys have been hogging up all the slams, but we're experiencing an era in which two of maybe the best players ever are competing. During the 80s and 90s, you had 5-6 guys that were great players, but even Sampras had holes in his game. The top 20 of today is filled with all-around better, more complete athletes than ever before.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
The difference is that's Sampras' personal belief. Sampras has said "Agassi made me a better player", while Federer said (after French Open win) "No. Maybe cuz he's a lefty, but I don't think he's made me better. I think I made him (and everyone) else better".

See the difference?? 4-1 vs 2-5.

yeah. That's why I said he makes a valid point. I'm not going to deny that the H2H against rafa does not look good. It would be nice if roger did beat rafa atleast once in a slam final. I don't know if that would cement his goat status. I don't believe in all that goat stuff and imo the 15 slams speak for themselves.
 

Rippy

Hall of Fame
Bear in mind, sampras still says he thinks Fed is the GOAT.

But anyway, yes, the Nadal H2H is a disadvantage. BUT, Fed's other achievements make up for it. No player is perfect in every way, and Fed's one weakness is Nadal. However, when you take into account Fed's other achievements, he is the GOAT.

Aside from Nadal H2H, Fed's resume is perfect. I'd be interested to hear who people think is GOAT if they think the Nadal H2H prevents the GOAT from being Federer.
 
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Gonzo

Rookie
Most of Nadals wins are on Clay. Nadal is prob the GOAT on clay. On other surfaces its not one sided. Would be even worse if Sampras played Nadal in all those matches, Sampras would never win a match vs Nadal on Clay. Infact Sampras would never get far enough in tourneys to play Nadal on Clay. Atleast Fed has 2 wins vs Nadal on clay. Who else can say that?
 

JeMar

Legend
I had a similar discussion with GameSampras over the strength of the field, and since I don't feel like writing it all over again, I'll just quote it:

It's not just talent, it's a combination of new training methods, more effective ways of striking the ball, better nutrition, etc. Laver is more talented than Federer, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't wipe the floor with him if the two were to play today.

What these people are talking about is that the power, the speed, and what players are capable of doing today is much greater than what players were capable of in the past. It's not a question of talent. What is your frightening obsession with 90s tennis? I can show my girlfriend and her little sisters a side-to-side comparison of two of today's journeymen playing a match and a tape of Borg playing Connors and they will tell me that the two journeymen are playing the game at a higher level than the two legends. If they get it, why can't you?

Laver, and pretty much anyone of any consequence says the game is the best it's ever been. Even Sampras will tell you that there's a lot more good players in the top 50 today, there's just a difference in the mettle of these players, which is why he doesn't consider them "great." The average level of players these days is better than it was when Sampras, Laver, and Borg were around. This is a fact.

Well.... The power, thats where these new graphite rackets with the polyester strings come into use. I mean put a player out there say... Bruguera with today's racket technology.. imagine the topspin he produces on the red dirt. Probably moreso than what Nadal is generating.

There no doubt in mind that guys like Edberg, Becker, Wilander, Lendl, Pete, Mac and all the greats couldnt be successful in this era.



Top 50.. We dont know how much stronger it is really... Give players from 10-20 years ago with the same access to racket technology, entourage of trainers, nutrionists and everything else.. and their games increase as well IMO. Its not really the players, just what the players today have more access to

Well, sure, but can he volley as well as Nadal? No. Federer has forced the best players in the world to get better. It's not enough to just bash from the baseline, you must also be able to finish points at the net, and moreover, you must be a great mover.

There were a lot of talented players in the 80s and 90s, but many of those had huge holes in their games, whether it was movement, net skills, a weak forehand/backhand, but they got away with it and were able to carve out a pretty good career in the top 20 or so.

If you look at the top 10 today, just about all of those players can play from anywhere in the court, the exception being maybe Del Potro, and all are great movers. The top 5 are amazing movers.

Compare that to the top 10 on 12/7/99. You have Agassi and Moya who really only went up to net to shake hands; Rafter and Rusedski that had weak strokes; and Krajicek and Martin who were pretty lousy movers.

Let's look at the top 10 on 17/7/89. Edberg and McEnroe were great movers, but they were not winning titles from the back of the court (yes, I know Edberg had a wonderful backhand, but remember that his forehand was pretty pathetic); Andre Agassi, Michael Chang, and Thomas Muster had lousy volleys; McEnroe couldn't play on clay, Agassi couldn't play on grass (back then), Thomas Muster couldn't play on anything but clay. I'm not familiar with Alberto Mancini, but since he's from Argentina, let's assume he was a dirt devil.

Now, you can say that the current top 10 hasn't won anything special, and that's true. I'm not going to argue that, even though there's factors that are the reason for that. What I'm asking you to look at is at the players themselves, not their accomplishments. Today's top 10 have more complete games than other top 10s have had. This is what people are talking about when they say the bar has been raised.

If you ignore this post and choose ONE line that you don't agree with and go off on a tangent about that one insignificant line, I will figure out a way to kick you in the nuts TPC/IP. Capice?

You want to say greatly these top players are from all around and their movement.. So what is special about say Roddicks overrall game then? And what about HIS movement? Which is pretty limited at best. This is a guy who outside a nasty big serve has been able to create quite a dang career for himself for not being this insanely talented all around. In fact he has LESS WEAPONS then someone like Edberg or Becker if you compare and contrast their games. So does someone like Roddick kind of contradict your statement? And hes been a consistent top 10'er for almost a decade

That's one player. Moya had a serve and a forehand, and that's about it. Oh, nevermind, he also moved well in one direction: TO HIS LEFT. All generations have a few players that are different from the norm. It's just that during Moya's era, those two-shot players tended to be more successful. There's a reason that Roddick will probably never get past #5 in the world, and he's only up that high because of his improved movement and all-around game.
 
Notice how Pete doesn't mention his woeful French Open record(only one semi!) and then bashes Roger for losing to Nadal on clay at the biggest stages.

Comparing Clay records

Fed - Won RG, 3 finals, semi, 5 clay masters and 6 other finals

Sampras - semi at RG, won Rome and NO other finals.

My god Pete, you should just STFU and let Borg do the talking.
 

JeMar

Legend
yeah. That's why I said he makes a valid point. I'm not going to deny that the H2H against rafa does not look good. It would be nice if roger did beat rafa atleast once in a slam final. I don't know if that would cement his goat status. I don't believe in all that goat stuff and imo the 15 slams speak for themselves.

He has. Twice.
 
T

TheMagicianOfPrecision

Guest
Notice how Pete doesn't mention his woeful French Open record(only one semi!) and then bashes Roger for losing to Nadal on clay at the biggest stages.

Comparing Clay records

Fed - Won RG, 3 finals, semi, 5 clay masters and 6 other finals

Sampras - semi at RG, won Rome and NO other finals.

My god Pete, you should just STFU and let Borg do the talking.
Totally agree with you
 
J

Jchurch

Guest
The difference is that's Sampras' personal belief. Sampras has said "Agassi made me a better player", while Federer said (after French Open win) "No. Maybe cuz he's a lefty, but I don't think he's made me better. I think I made him (and everyone) else better".

See the difference?? 4-1 vs 2-5.

Can you please me provide me a link to that quote?
 

380pistol

Banned
yeah. That's why I said he makes a valid point. I'm not going to deny that the H2H against rafa does not look good. It would be nice if roger did beat rafa atleast once in a slam final. I don't know if that would cement his goat status. I don't believe in all that goat stuff and imo the 15 slams speak for themselves.

The difference is that's Sampras' personal belief. Sampras has said "Agassi made me a better player", while Federer said (after French Open win) "No. Maybe cuz he's a lefty, but I don't think he's made me better. I think I made him (and everyone) else better".

See the difference?? 4-1 vs 2-5.

I was responding to....

he's not saying anything that hasn't been mentioned before. He makes a valid point. lmao@ the " I don't think any could beat me in my prime on grass." Boy if roger had said that, everyone would have a field day. And the samprastards get on roger's case for arrogance.

... this.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
Notice how Pete doesn't mention his woeful French Open record(only one semi!) and then bashes Roger for losing to Nadal on clay at the biggest stages.

Comparing Clay records

Fed - Won RG, 3 finals, semi, 5 clay masters and 6 other finals

Sampras - semi at RG, won Rome and NO other finals.

My god Pete, you should just STFU and let Borg do the talking.

ouch!! I don't think pete is bitter. Btw, agassi mentioned the same thing earlier this year and he won FO. He's not bashing roger either, unless pointing out the obvious is called bashing. Calm down.
 
Nadal is 4-0 against Fed in clay slams. Federer is 2-2 off clay. I'd say while it'd be nice if Fed could pick up a Roland Garros win against Nadal, not vital to legacy at all.
 

hyogen

Hall of Fame
Poor Sampy just can't handle the fact that he's not #1 in the GOAT race anymore... Very sad to see such bitterness!

wow, lost some respect for sampras too. neither Federer or Sampras can be called classy anymore.

Agassi...he was sheer class
 

MichaelChang

Hall of Fame
I think it is the media/author stirring the pot, taking Samrpas's words from context and put them into an article like this. Why didn't anyone mention the consecutive slam-semi and slam-final streaks Federer has made? That to me shows the dominace that nobody else has ever come close.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
He has. Twice.

I mean now. I know he has twice, but he hasn't since 2007 and since then, nadal has beaten federer 3 times in slam finals. I'm hoping for a fedal final at the USO, and that feddie beats nadal, or that safin gets to the final and wins, hoping for the latter is kind of pointless.
 

380pistol

Banned
Can you please me provide me a link to that quote?

It was an interview he did with Dick Ennberg for NBC, a ono on one sit down, I believe after the French Open.

Collins was referring he and Nadal to Sa,pras and Agassi, where Sampras said Agassi made him a better player. When asked if Nadal has made him a better player, he said.....

"No. Maybe cuz of the lefty thein, cuz he's a lefty, but no, not really. If anything I've made him and everyone else better players. They had to catch up to me". (Paraphrasing)

He flat out said no. Then said maybe cuz Nadal plays lefthanded and then said no. He even went on to say the rest of the field hasn't made him, better, that he made them better.
 

Rippy

Hall of Fame
I think it is the media/author stirring the pot, taking Samrpas's words from context and put them into an article like this. Why didn't anyone mention the consecutive slam-semi and slam-final streaks Federer has made? That to me shows the dominace that nobody else has ever come close.

Exactly. Even with 7-13, Federer is the GOAT. Nobody comes close to his other achievements.

Besides this is just silly... if Federer has lost before the finals of the FO (like sampras) people would consider him BETTER?! That's just stupid.
 

JeMar

Legend
I mean now. I know he has twice, but he hasn't since 2007 and since then, nadal has beaten federer 3 times in slam finals. I'm hoping for a fedal final at the USO, and that feddie beats nadal, or that safin gets to the final and wins, hoping for the latter is kind of pointless.

Federer beat him in Madrid and then Nadal went out at the French Open to a lesser player, it's not Federer's fault. Then Nadal dropped out of Wimbledon, which (again) was not Federer's fault.

You can't beat what's not good enough to stand in front of you.
 

vbranis

Professional
Some pretty arrogant comments by Pete there, surprising. Anyway, most of Fed and Nadal's H2H meetings were on clay, Rafa's best surface. It's not Fed's fault that Rafa wasn't good enough on hard courts to make it to the finals, which would've improved Fed's record against him.

Fed WAS good enough to make it to the finals of clay tournaments, where he worsened his record.

Let's take a hypothetical scenario: suppose Sampras was good enough to get to the finals of clay court tournaments consistently. He would've inevitably run up against Bruguera many times. What would've happened? Bruguera would've probably won MOST of those matches. In other words, Sampras would be OWNED by Bruguera, with a poor H2H record against him. BTW, Bruguera is 3-2 against Sampras, having played 3 times on clay. So you do the math and figure out what the record would be if they played 5 more times on clay. But, unfortunately, Sampras wasn't good enough on clay to make it deep to get a chance to play Bruguera.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Exactly. Even with 7-13, Federer is the GOAT. Nobody comes close to his other achievements.

Besides this is just silly... if Federer has lost before the finals of the FO (like sampras) people would consider him BETTER?! That's just stupid.

Exactly. Fed is getting ripped for being too good and having insane consistency.

21 straight GS semis
16/17 GS finals

ridiculous!
 

JeMar

Legend
It was an interview he did with Dick Ennberg for NBC, a ono on one sit down, I believe after the French Open.

Collins was referring he and Nadal to Sa,pras and Agassi, where Sampras said Agassi made him a better player. When asked if Nadal has made him a better player, he said.....

"No. Maybe cuz of the lefty thein, cuz he's a lefty, but no, not really. If anything I've made him and everyone else better players. They had to catch up to me". (Paraphrasing)

He flat out said no. Then said maybe cuz Nadal plays lefthanded and then said no. He even went on to say the rest of the field hasn't made him, better, that he made them better.

lol, that's taking quite some liberties in the paraphrasing.
 

380pistol

Banned
Exactly. Even with 7-13, Federer is the GOAT. Nobody comes close to his other achievements.

Besides this is just silly... if Federer has lost before the finals of the FO (like sampras) people would consider him BETTER?! That's just stupid.

You do realize that Nadal is 3-1vs Federer on outdoor hardcourts, with his only loss was him at 18 blowing 6-2,7-6,4-1 lead. And he has beaten Federer on clay, gras and hard in slam finals.
 
N

nikdom

Guest
Somebody please slaughter this mythical GOAT discussion!!! Haven't we discussed this to death already? Sampras/Laver/Federer.... this is getting pretty sick. Just pick who you like and they're the GOAT.
 

nn

Hall of Fame
Pete is spot on so was laver because still Roger is playing and so Nadal who is just 23. Pete won his first major at 22 or 23.

Laver and Roger said the same that to call all time great you have to wait till retirement.

If Nadal can maintain his form and fitness he can surpass Roger even he can be call great if he wins USOPEN which will complete his four slam at age of 23 or 24.

time will tell..only answer is time
 

Rippy

Hall of Fame
You do realize that Nadal is 3-1vs Federer on outdoor hardcourts, with his only loss was him at 18 blowing 6-2,7-6,4-1 lead. And he has beaten Federer on clay, gras and hard in slam finals.

I do indeed realise that. But overall on hardcourt, they are even.

Fed was playing past his prime at the AO, with Nadal in his ultimate prime.
 
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