Sampras serve: elbow up high?

tennisdad65

Hall of Fame
Take a look at this clip of sampras's serve:
http://www.dono.com.cn/tujie/sampras01.htm

Set the frame rate to 1 fr/s
Look at frame 16..
Pay attention to his right elbow which is already above his head and his forearm is just starting to launch the racquet up :)

Going through my serve motion in front of a mirror:
1) In my serve, my right elbow is up to my chin, then the elbow goes up the rest of the way while I throw my forearm up.
2) Sampras gets his right elbow up over his head, then throws his forearm up.


How the hell does he manage that? do other pro's also do this? what are the benefits of this? obviously this has to be good since it is Sampras :) ( unless it hurts the shoulder )

Also, it seems like his shoulder is locked up between frames 10-16 :) and he holds his right elbow high around frame 10..
 
Last edited:

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Take a look at the Djokovic serve in this clip >>> Hi-TechTennis sample

Pause the action when the slider control is between the two n's.

Part of the key for both servers is the orientation of the shoulders. The head has tilted off to the left side somewhat to accommodate the right shoulder coming up and thru in this manner. With the upper arm pointing upward as you have noticed, it enables whole arm to act like a catapult - launching the forearm upward. In fact, it is somewhat of a double-catapult action -- as forearm is extended straight up, we see that the racquet itself is launched upward to the ball.

.
 
Last edited:

5263

G.O.A.T.
Take a look at this clip of sampras's serve:
http://www.dono.com.cn/tujie/sampras01.htm

Set the frame rate to 1 fr/s
Look at frame 16..
Pay attention to his right elbow which is already above his head and his forearm is just starting to launch the racquet up :)

Going through my serve motion in front of a mirror:
1) In my serve, my right elbow is up to my chin, then the elbow goes up the rest of the way while I throw my forearm up.
2) Sampras gets his right elbow up over his head, then throws his forearm up.


How the hell does he manage that? do other pro's also do this? what are the benefits of this? obviously this has to be good since it is Sampras :) ( unless it hurts the shoulder )

Also, it seems like his shoulder is locked up between frames 10-16 :) and he holds his right elbow high around frame 10..

This is what I was describing in the post to help TonLars increase his serve speed.
1. deep racket drop where the elbow is bent more than 90 degrees (took for granted the elbow will be high as basic form)
2. delayed elbow extension as the leg drives further aids the racket drop

longer dist over shorter time equals faster stick speed
 
Last edited:

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
...

1. deep racket drop where the elbow is bent more than 90 degrees (took for granted the elbow will be high as basic form)
2. delayed elbow extension as the leg drives further aids the racket drop

longer dist over shorter time equals faster stick speed

Yes, a good racquet drop is unquestionably very important to get you to the loaded catapult position that I mentioned above.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Yes, a good racquet drop is unquestionably very important to get you to the loaded catapult position that I mentioned above.

Agreed,
I like that catapult term for describing it as well. As the legs drive upward, it can add to the loading of the catapult, sort of liking cranking down the lever by raising the platform.
 

tennisdad65

Hall of Fame
thanks for the feedback guys.

Am I right in the following observations?

1) The humerus is motionless relative to the shoulder when the torso moves up, and also motionless relative to the shoulder, when the head moves to the side to accomadate the shoulder. i.e. Not a triple catapult with humerus, forearm, and racquet moving together.

By motionless relative to the shoulder, I mean that if you draw a line from left shoulder to right shoulder, and through the humerus to the right elbow, this straight line is pretty much unchanged for both sampras & novak, during the launch up and well into the double catapult

2) rotator cuff does not move (too much) when the double catapult action occurs?

3) Seems like even though it is very difficult to achieve this position/sequence for me, this is the sequence with least shoulder (rotator cuff) stress?
 
Last edited:

5263

G.O.A.T.
thanks for the feedback guys.

Am I right in the following observations?

1) The humerus is motionless relative to the shoulder when the torso moves up, and also motionless relative to the shoulder, when the head moves to the side to accomadate the shoulder. i.e. Not a triple catapult with humerus, forearm, and racquet moving together.

By motionless relative to the shoulder, I mean that if you draw a line from left shoulder to right shoulder, and through the humerus to the right elbow, this straight line is pretty much unchanged for both sampras & novak, during the launch up and well into the double catapult

2) rotator cuff does not move (too much) when the double catapult action occurs?

3) Seems like even though it is very difficult to achieve this position/sequence for me, this is the sequence with least shoulder (rotator cuff) stress?

Almost if I understand you. The elbow is high by the time the legs are straight, but still on the ground. This happens with Pete at about the same time. I agree that this is where a pause takes place relative to the elbow being high as the racket gets maybe that last touch of depth due to loading as the torso rises from the leg drive taking him off the ground, driving at a 7-15 degree body angle up to the CP. This pause of the elbow with the stick staying or getting lower, is what I refer to as the "delayed extension" of the elbow.

If you look back at Agassi, Hewitt and Rafa when they were serving slower (they all served pretty fast at times later) , you can see how their elbow is starting to extend even before the elbow is at full height and is often 1/3 of the way extended by the time the elbow is high. They didn't usually get more than 90 degrees of bend to begin with either. I'm convinced this is a big part of what most of do that sucks valuable mph off our serve in an effort to be more accurate, much like using a shorter motion to throw something as accurately as possible.
 

anchorage

Rookie
The Djokovic sequence is absolutely brilliant.

I think it's very important that after the racket drop, the elbow is high so that the 'V' formed by the arm through the elbow is pointing upwards (see the Djokovic clip if that isn't clear). The high elbow stretches the tricepts - that is the key to generating racket head speed. You want to be able to release, or fire, those muscles in a linear motion, as straight upwards as possible, which you can only do if the elbow is pointing up.

It takes some practice to get this down, and it's easy to get lazy with this aspect of the service motion, but it's certainly worth persevering.

The other important thing to note from the clip is how stable Djokovic's spine angle is through the swing. If you look at the point of rotation as he actually moves into the ball, it's very stationary, as is his head height as a result. Absolutely brilliant.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I thought I could ask here instead of opening a new thread.
Can someone explain how and why Sampras gets the elbow up and bent in the swing/ follow through?
Most other players end up with a straight arm in the follow through.
 

PilotPete

Hall of Fame
I thought I could ask here instead of opening a new thread.
Can someone explain how and why Sampras gets the elbow up and bent in the swing/ follow through?
Most other players end up with a straight arm in the follow through.

I would say it's akin to stopping the torso when it faces the net on the FH and letting the arm whip thru. Stopping at the elbow is one link further that is abruptly stopped to let the racquet whip thru even faster on the serve.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I would say it's akin to stopping the torso when it faces the net on the FH and letting the arm whip thru. Stopping at the elbow is one link further that is abruptly stopped to let the racquet whip thru even faster on the serve.
Stopping the elbow sounds counterintuitive but I see what you mean. Maybe slowing down. I was wondering if it could be that he uses internal shoulder rotation to the maximum and doesn’t rely on/avoids forward swing of the whole arm, hence the upper arm mainly rotates instead of moving forward which results in the elbow literally hanging in the air for several moments so to speak.
 

PilotPete

Hall of Fame
Stopping the elbow sounds counterintuitive but I see what you mean. Maybe slowing down. I was wondering if it could be that he uses internal shoulder rotation to the maximum and doesn’t rely on/avoids forward swing of the whole arm, hence the upper arm mainly rotates instead of moving forward which results in the elbow literally hanging in the air for several moments so to speak.

Yeah, I think stopping the elbow wasn't worded properly. It's still stopping the torso, but instead of the loose joint that flings the arm forward being the shoulder, it's the elbow instead. And that stoppage results in a more powerful ISR at the shoulder due to the swing path, leaving the elbow higher in the air for longer.
 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame
When I added a ton of lead to the hoop of a PS85, my natural service follow through became the same as Sampras'. My theory is that the racket head had so much inertia that it just goes there as long as you don't fight it. If you take a 16 oz. ball peen hammer and (carefully) experiment, you may find the same thing.

By the way, I've never hit better serves in my life than with that axe. But I couldn't play a match with the thing.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, I think stopping the elbow wasn't worded properly. It's still stopping the torso, but instead of the loose joint that flings the arm forward being the shoulder, it's the elbow instead. And that stoppage results in a more powerful ISR at the shoulder due to the swing path, leaving the elbow higher in the air for longer.
He’s sideways nearly the whole time during the swing. I’ve been comparing with mine. Could that also be playing a role as to why I’m not getting the elbow up part?

 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame
I think you could get there with a little more leg drive and a little bit quicker pronation. It's kind of like the racket snaps over the top so fast that it's already pointed down while your arm is finishing going up.
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
He’s sideways nearly the whole time during the swing. I’ve been comparing with mine. Could that also be playing a role as to why I’m not getting the elbow up part?

Two things. I have a hard time hitting a good serve when my leg goes to the pinpoint and my arm still has so much work to do. You are in the pp stance, left hip forward and then right arm is doing all that waving around putting forces on the rest of your body and giving you time to do other incorrect things. I believe it is a contributor to the next thing. Your left shoulder stars going left, your left arm drops and this cuts your power, flattening your serve. I have come to the conclusion that a serve is limited by how much the right shoulder travels from the time the racquet head is in full drop to contact with ball. The farther the right shoulder travels from drop to contact the faster the serve can be. Yours seems to move up a lot before upward striking motion because left shoulder drops before you attack the ball. I am no pro. Just trial and error things I have noticed and from watching pros. But experiment with letting the racquet get a good start up to trophy and then step to pp stance and let us know what happens. And keep that left shoulder still until the upward swing.
 
Last edited:

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
Yes, a good racquet drop is unquestionably very important to get you to the loaded catapult position that I mentioned above.
Correct, because it is what sends the racquet up to the ball. The arm does IMO absolutely nothing to start the racquet up to strike the ball. Only after it is sent on its way from the legs/jump do the arms add to and then take over in striking the ball. If you are contracting any muscles in the arm at full racquet drop you are sabotaging the whole catapult deal.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Correct, because it is what sends the racquet up to the ball. The arm does IMO absolutely nothing to start the racquet up to strike the ball. Only after it is sent on its way from the legs/jump do the arms add to and then take over in striking the ball. If you are contracting any muscles in the arm at full racquet drop you are sabotaging the whole catapult deal.
Unfortunately I don’t understand your points fully.
 

PilotPete

Hall of Fame
He’s sideways nearly the whole time during the swing. I’ve been comparing with mine. Could that also be playing a role as to why I’m not getting the elbow up part?


Yes, somewhat related. I think more accurately though it's that you are rotating your torso so it ends up facing the net when contact is made. But if you watch Sampras, at contact his torso is more facing the net post (i.e. at around 45 deg., whereas 90 deg. would be facing the net), he's putting on the brakes there and that brake is not isolated to the torso, it include the upper arm so it remains in the plane of the torso. Consequently, the elbow bends and stays at the top.
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
Unfortunately I don’t understand your points fully.
What about post #18? That is the stuff that will help. Post #19, which you quoted, was just the why of how some things work. Apparently, I need to work on my descriptive English. I get the “I don’t get it” response often.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Yes, somewhat related. I think more accurately though it's that you are rotating your torso so it ends up facing the net when contact is made. But if you watch Sampras, at contact his torso is more facing the net post (i.e. at around 45 deg., whereas 90 deg. would be facing the net), he's putting on the brakes there and that brake is not isolated to the torso, it include the upper arm so it remains in the plane of the torso. Consequently, the elbow bends and stays at the top.
Spot on. I’d noticed that afterwards. He’s doing side on shoulder over shoulder cartwheeling motion whereas I’m rotating more at the vertical axis. Will fix it today.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Wow! Easier said than done. I’m so used to throwing the whole arm forward with the elbow. This proper ISR will take some time to get it right.
I guess I made a small progress though.


 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
Wow! Easier said than done. I’m so used to throwing the whole arm forward with the elbow. This proper ISR will take some time to get it right.
I guess I made a small progress though.


You went platform! That can help with potential problem of timing the racquet arm and back leg moving to pinpoint. Nothing stands out as a major problem to my eye. Super hard to tell from behind, but your body position at contact looks like the toss may not be far enough out into court. Any idea where it lands if you toss and don’t hit it?
 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame
If you close your stance more to start, you'll basically be there. You start with your feet perpendicular to the baseline. Sampras started with his feet aligned about to the right netpost.

And then you'll naturally pretty much show your back to the court with your current takeback.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
If you close your stance more to start, you'll basically be there. You start with your feet perpendicular to the baseline. Sampras started with his feet aligned about to the right netpost.

And then you'll naturally pretty much show your back to the court with your current takeback.
You saw my recent thread ‘shoulder turn overrated’ ?
Well I believe it’s overrated for an average low level rec player. It requires a lot of coordination and balance.
But here I’m trying to emulate his shoulder over shoulder and excellent ISR. And I even find this difficult to do properly. Don’t wanna make it more difficult by showing my back to the opponent.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
I thought I could ask here instead of opening a new thread.
Can someone explain how and why Sampras gets the elbow up and bent in the swing/ follow through?
Most other players end up with a straight arm in the follow through.
I read somewhere it was because he completed rapid ISR earlier than most and it allowed him to decelerate his arm in that fashion. Don't have the source sorry, just putting it out there. Krajicek was another who often had this finish.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I read somewhere it was because he completed rapid ISR earlier than most and it allowed him to decelerate his arm in that fashion. Don't have the source sorry, just putting it out there. Krajicek was another who often had this finish.
Interesting. Makes sense. I was actually wondering yesterday if I could do it better with a lighter racket.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
If you look back at Agassi, Hewitt and Rafa when they were serving slower (they all served pretty fast at times later) , you can see how their elbow is starting to extend even before the elbow is at full height and is often 1/3 of the way extended by the time the elbow is high. They didn't usually get more than 90 degrees of bend to begin with either. I'm convinced this is a big part of what most of do that sucks valuable mph off our serve in an effort to be more accurate, much like using a shorter motion to throw something as accurately as possible.
Very interesting. So how does a decent amateur server train to help obtain this extra bend and delay the elbow extension to get more power? is it even possible? I hope so!
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Very interesting. So how does a decent amateur server train to help obtain this extra bend and delay the elbow extension to get more power? is it even possible? I hope so!
The way I address it is to have focus on the 3rd phase of the serve, which is the 'launch phase", to develop a solid launch while working to employ a pause or waiting before letting the hand go for contact.
 
Top