Sampras Serve Vs Soderling's

[fed_rulz]

1996. rg sampras had 92 aces in 24 sets, 3.83 per set

last year soderking 54 aces in 25 sets, 2.16 per set
this year 57 in 17 sets, 3.35 per set...not done yet, go soderking

del potro last year 59 aces in 21 set, 2.81 per set

federer last year 80 aces in 27 sets, 2.96 per set
this year 38 aces in 19 sets, 2 per set


great serving performance by sampras on clay - vs courier '96 (have the match) 29 aces, broken only twice in a match, both times in second set...courier was pretty pissed about sampras...his exact words " it's ****ing wimbledon all over again...the guy is in his grave and ****ing still serving bullets"...sampras was pretty green in the face in the last set


by the way sampras served 100+ aces in gs tournaments 16 times...next is goran with 8...roddick has 6 or so...federer served for the first time 100+ in last year wimbledon

also sampras still holds the record in most aces for us open, 144, also has the second best, 141...and the record for australian open, 132

goran holds the record for wimbledon, 213
martin verkerk for the rg, 124

thanks; great work. this is the kind of response i was looking for.

I'm not disputing that Sampras served great on other surfaces. It is specifically clay that I'm referring to.

1996 was hot and dry, and balls were flying, and the court behaved like a hard court. So no surprise that Sampras did well; and incidentally, his serve clicked and he was in the SF that year.

What about times when the conditions were slow and heavy? did sampras still have the same success? The central point of my post is that as great a server as sampras was, there seems to be a strong dependence on the surface; if the surface was slow, his performance suffered. where as beasts like Soderking, JMDP, Karlovic etc., seemed to serve more effectively on clay than sampras. Hence, is it fair to call him the GSOAT?

 

[fed_rulz]

McEnroe and several other players have expressed similar opinion about Agassi's returning ability. You may start a poll on greatest returner of serve on this board and see for yourseleves .

Agassi was a great returner, no doubt. however, there has been a debate on whether he is the greatest.. he gets aced so many times.

If we were to take McEnroe's words, then surely Pete fans would have no problem conceding that Federer is GOAT-- McEnroe has said that himself many times (I'm not specifically referring to you, but there are a bunch of Pete-fans/****s who dismiss McEnroe's views on Fed as being more populist, with very little substance)

That is just one data point what parameter or statistic would convince you about him being GSOAT ?

According to you who is GSOAT ?

I can tell me what does not convince me about Pete sampras as GSOAT -- his serving performance on clay. His serve could not bail him out of trouble on clay, unlike on other surfaces.

Not more than oh he served only 125 mph as against Soderling's 140mph.

i did not make it, so not sure why you brought it up.

Go easy on font sizes unless you think higher font size translates into more credibility ...LoL.

thanks for the lecture on credibility. the bigger font was not just for you; many posters who poster earlier seemed to think I was claiming that Soderking was a better server than sampras (though on clay, he certainly has a case).

 

[fed_rulz]

What do we make of the numbers posted by "Slice Serve Ace' ?

Please see my response to "slice serve ace".

 

[fed_rulz]

Sampras's serve is undoubtedly better overall than Soderling's, but only the most die-hard Pete fan would say that his serve is more POWERFUL. Soderling consistently has 10-15 mph on his serve that Sampras was unable to generate. On other surfaces, placement and spin seem to be more important factors, but on clay Soderling's superior raw power is able to cut through the court in a way that Sampras's serve (despite being the better shot) could not.

great post. precisely what I'm arguing -- Sampras serve was not as effective on clay. If that's the case, why bestow the GSOAT on him? It appears that his serving numbers were greatly helped by the surface.

 

[powerslave]

The central point of my post is that as great a server as sampras was, there seems to be a strong dependence on the surface;

You can replace 'Sampras' with any tom dick and harry and the statement will be as specific or vague as it is right now.

if the surface was slow, his performance suffered.

I agree

where as beasts like Soderking, JMDP, Karlovic etc., seemed to serve more effectively on clay than sampras.

Nope check the stats posted by 'slice serve ace' .

Hence, is it fair to call him the GSOAT?

Perhaps people should ask you how 'LOGICAL' is it to judge one's serve based on showing in one particular GS (French Open in this case) ? How about doing a more objective analysis of all his titles and the role his serve played in his game and do the same for Sodering.

 

[powerslave]

If that's the case, why bestow the GSOAT on him? It appears that his serving numbers were greatly helped by the surface.

Yeah these surfaces in question somehow conspire against likes of Karlovic and Soderling.

By the way what do you make of this ?

Since posting in bold is in vogue.

1996. rg sampras had 92 aces in 24 sets, 3.83 per set

 

[fed_rulz]

You can replace 'Sampras' with any tom dick and harry and the statement will be as specific or vague as it is right now.

what does that even mean? Karlovic can serve regardless of the surface. His best ace numbers are on clay. So if I replace "Sampras" with Karlovic, it won't make much sense. However, for Sampras, it does make perfect sense.

[/quote]

Nope check the stats posted by 'slice serve ace' .

nope, check my response.

Perhaps people should ask you how 'LOGICAL' is it to judge one's serve based on showing in one particular GS (French Open in this case) ? How about doing a more objective analysis of all his titles and the role his serve played in his game and do the same for Sodering.[/QUOTE]

I don't get why you insist on bringing Soderling into the picture; maybe you should read the bolded part again!! I never claimed Soderling was a better server than Sampras. I just used him as an example of how a big serve can be effective even in damp, slow, heavy conditions, something that a Sampras serve wasn't.

It is very logical to judge one's serve based on a particular GS (one out of 4), especially, if you're going to anoint him the GSOAT. all the hype about the sampras serve comes from his performances in two of the 4 GS -- wimby and USO, where he was helped by lightning fast conditions. Not as much as RG. Perhaps, if you gave the same surfaces to the servers today, they would look even more impressive. So tell me again, why shouldn't Pete's status as GSOAT be disputed?

 

[fed_rulz]

Yeah these surfaces in question somehow conspire against likes of Karlovic and Soderling.

By the way what do you make of this ?

Since posting in bold is in vogue.

1996. rg sampras had 92 aces in 24 sets, 3.83 per set

1996 was hot and dry, and balls were flying, and the court behaved like a hard court. So no surprise that Sampras did well; and incidentally, his serve clicked and he was in the SF that year.

It would definitely help if you can read before you post.

 

[TMF]

Sampras’s serve is not as effective as Soderling on clay. I think Roger would stand much better chance against Pete’s serve than Soderling. Adding 15 more mph makes a huge difference.
There’s plenty of guys serving 120 mph against roger and he didn’t have much problem(unlike against Soderling yesterday).

 

[Chadwixx]

Pete had fatigue problems due to his blood condition, by the second or third tough match he was spent.

There are two types of his blood condition, he has the one that many people have and has no affect on them. The other one is like constant mono, he wouldnt of been able to play at all with it.

 

[Chadwixx]

Sampras’s serve is not as effective as Soderling on clay. I think Roger would stand much better chance against Pete’s serve than Soderling. Adding 15 more mph makes a huge difference.
There’s plenty of guys serving 120 mph against roger and he didn’t have much problem(unlike against Soderling yesterday).

Fed didnt have any problems with pete's serve in their match at wimbledon when it was +10mph (on avg) faster than it was in the mid-late 90's. He was taking full swings off it for winners.

 

[TMF]

Fed didnt have any problems with pete's serve in their match at wimbledon when it was +10mph (on avg) faster than it was in the mid-late 90's. He was taking full swings off it for winners.

Yep, it was on FAST grass. I didn’t want to bring it up b/c they might say I’m bragging despite it’s true.

 

[ChrisCrocker]

Yep, it was on FAST grass. I didn’t want to bring it up b/c they might say I’m bragging despite it’s true.

I'm pretty sure they changed the grass in either 2000 or 2001. Either way it was SLOW(er) grass.

And there's really nothing to brag about. That the person you praise does good?

 

[UncleRico.]

Why didn't Pete do better at the French? The court and the balls were slower, blunting the serve. Pete had fatigue problems due to his blood condition, by the second or third tough match he was spent. Also, his groundstrokes were not as big as Soderling's. His forehand was big, but comparatively his backhand was significantly weaker.

I like this post a lot.

Straight, to the point, and factually correct.

 

[fed_rulz]

I like this post a lot.

Straight, to the point, and factually correct.

and tangential to my original question. We all know why Pete did not do well on clay; my question was why wasn't he winning as many free points on serve as some others seem to be able to..

 

[coloskier]

I disagree. Delpo, Soderling, and Fed do not win that many cheap points of their serves. Remember we are talking about greatest serves of all time. Nothing else. Today's players move, return, and ground stroke better than the 90s players. But the quality of servers and volleyers has diminished. Pete could win cheap points of his serve in his prime from 92 to 96 other than 95. Afterwards, players took advantage of his stamina and played out long points
to tire him out.

One of the reasons Sampras had so many cheap points on his serve was technology, except in the last few years of his career. You couldn't wail on returns back then and basically had no choice but to try an block it back because of string technology. If you tried to hit a topspin return against Sampras, you were likely to either shank it or hit it into the fence. Plus, Sampras even now gets more kick on his serve than anyone except Karlovic and Isner.

 

[World Beater]

its no secret really. sampras is arguably the most overrated player on this forum. his serve has reached mythical proportions...as if nobody in the history of tennis could return it.

 

[jigar]

I vote for Pete. This new serving generation is just because of him.

 

[BeHappy]

Sampras was never the best server, Ivanisevic used to hit twice as many aces a season as him. Sampras's game was based around hitting flat, clean winners. He couldn't hit those shots over and over again on as clay demands.

 

[slice serve ace]

Fed didnt have any problems with pete's serve in their match at wimbledon when it was +10mph (on avg) faster than it was in the mid-late 90's. He was taking full swings off it for winners.

sampras had 26 aces
normal number for him in a 5-setter

more important, he had 85 unreturned serves of 189 service points
unreturned serve = every serve not returned in, includes aces of course
85/189 = 44.97%

against goran in 98
only 12 aces (goran has pretty big reach)
71 unreturned serve of 155 service points
71/155 = 45.81%

against henman in 98
16 aces
46 unreturned serves of 114 service points
46/114 = 40.35%

sampras problems in that match against federer were on the return like in whole 2001
in 2001 won only 17.57% of return games played
in 1994 won 29.38% of return games played

 

[Cesc Fabregas]

Soderling was serving in the 140's mph while Sampras only served in the 120's mph. BIG difference.

Different speed guns. If Sampras played today his first serves would be regulary in the 130's and 140's.

 

[fed_rulz]

sampras had 26 aces
normal number for him in a 5-setter

more important, he had 85 unreturned serves of 189 service points
unreturned serve = every serve not returned in, includes aces of course
85/189 = 44.97%

against goran in 98
only 12 aces (goran has pretty big reach)
71 unreturned serve of 155 service points
71/155 = 45.81%

against henman in 98
16 aces
46 unreturned serves of 114 service points
46/114 = 40.35%

sampras problems in that match against federer were on the return like in whole 2001
in 2001 won only 17.57% of return games played
in 1994 won 29.38% of return games played

Sampras served at 69% first serves during the Fed match.. that was much higher than his normal serving %. what were the serving % for the goran and henman matches?

 

[fed_rulz]

its no secret really. sampras is arguably the most overrated player on this forum. his serve has reached mythical proportions...as if nobody in the history of tennis could return it.

This!! QFT......

 

[powerslave]

Ha so worthies on this fora now yapping about Pete being overrated ?

Overrated by whom ? How did you get to this conclusion ?

Despite all that data being posted by Slice_Serve_Ace I see whiners crying oh 96 Roland Garros was fast , for crying out loud , how fast ? Can someone quantify that ?

If court , weather and other varaibles need to be accounted for then why leave out newer rackets and strings ?

There was lot more to Sampras's game than just his serve when it came to playing on grass or hard courts similarly it was not just his serve which was responsible for his poor showing in French open, his forehand and backhand had relatively less topspin than the clay court specialists of his time so his running forehand did not have as much sting as on grass .

Who was stopping worthies like Soderling & Co from sending aces down the T or out wide on other 3 open surfaces all this time ?

Despite that 140mph serve how many aces did Soderling serve in his match against Federer ?

 

[fed_rulz]

Ha so worthies on this fora now yapping about Pete being overrated ?

Overrated by whom ? How did you get to this conclusion ?

Despite all that data being posted by Slice_Serve_Ace I see whiners crying oh 96 Roland Garros was fast , for crying out loud , how fast ? Can someone quantify that ?

If court , weather and other varaibles need to be accounted for then why leave out newer rackets and strings ?

There was lot more to Sampras's game than just his serve when it came to playing on grass or hard courts similarly it was not just his serve which was responsible for his poor showing in French open, his forehand and backhand had relatively less topspin than the clay court specialists of his time so his running forehand did not have as much sting as on grass .

Who was stopping worthies like Soderling & Co from sending aces down the T or out wide on other 3 open surfaces all this time ?

Despite that 140mph serve how many aces did Soderling serve in his match against Federer ?

Search function is your friend. The fact that 96 RG was dry and fast has been mentioned on many occasions by various members in this forum.

So explain why Sampras was not able to replicate his serving performance in other editions of RG? All you make are excuses for sampras' poor showing on clay; never giving a reason why his serve was not as effective as some of the other guys today.

 

[TMF]

Soderling is on the verge of making 2 consecutive FO finals. His humongous serve is the reason why. If Sampras's serve was such a factor on clay, then he would have done alot better instead of only making one semifinal in his entire career.

It's not that Sampras was losing to a great cc like Rafa, guga. He lost to weak players that he shouldn't have. But Robin has beaten Nadal and Federer. You guys keep listing all the number of aces by Sampras, but where's the result? That's what really count.

On clay, Robin's serve is more lethal. Deal with it.

 

[The Godfather]

I would like to see some of the best servers have a few serving sessions on different surfaces with a full gut setup and compare it their serves with current setups.
Something tells me the speed,spin and kick will drop dramatically.

 

[fed_rulz]

I would like to see some of the best servers have a few serving sessions on different surfaces with a full gut setup and compare it their serves with current setups.
Something tells me the speed,spin and kick will drop dramatically.

The newer strings and surfaces favor the receiver...

 

[powerslave]

Soderling is on the verge of making 2 consecutive FO finals. His humongous serve is the reason why. If Sampras's serve was such a factor on clay, then he would have done alot better instead of only making one semifinal in his entire career.

If tennis was all about serving then Karlovic would have been GOAT as well as GSOAT; the argument is about Pete's serve vs Soderling's , however Soderling's game is not as dependent on his serve as Pete the former won against Federer because he could break Fed's serving game and not just because he was bombing 140mph serves.So evaluating and comparing Pete's serve with Soderling's based on the match result and showing in french open is misleading.

It's not that Sampras was losing to a great cc like Rafa, guga. He lost to weak players that he shouldn't have. But Robin has beaten Nadal and Federer. You guys keep listing all the number of aces by Sampras, but where's the result? That's what really count.

This is even more absurd ; Nadal has 4 french open GS titles Soderling has ZERO so as per your logic Nadal has a more effective serve on clay than Soderling ? :shock:

On clay, Robin's serve is more lethal. Deal with it.

How do we quantify that ? As per the stats posted on this thread Pete has more aces in a given match in FO.

 

[TMF]

^
Of course Nadal success is evolved around his ground game…the movement, defense, consistent, spins, etc. However Robin and Pete are not Rafa. Their primary weapon is the huge serve. Soderling is cruising his way to the final but Pete wasn’t able to do in his entire life. I don’t believe for second that Robin can beat Rafa and Roger had not for his great serve. If you don’t think there’s a gap between Robin and Pete’s serve on clay, then Robin must be a lot better than Pete in other areas...fh, bh, movements, volley, speed, touch. Is that what you want us to believe? Pete won 14 GS and there’s no way he’s that inferior to Soderling all around game. The only explanation is the serve that made the difference.

 

[Kobble]

People who were in diapers in the 90's should watch more tapes. Sampras' serve was much superior in pace and disguise to Soderling. Not to mention spin, and he did it with a Pro Staff 6.0 85 square inch racquet.

I also believe Soderling has a better backhand for clay. Take into consideration that he is European, and the grow up playing more clay tournaments, so he probably has a better feel on clay.