Sampras thinks players are better today...

35ft6

Legend
moose malloy, excellent post about becker. yes, becker was the first player to truly revolutionize the game.
I think Lendl is the person who truly revolutionized tennis at that time. Incredible fitness... huge serve that you don't necessarily follow into the net... a huge forehand you use to control the center of the court by hitting inside out... etc.

I don't know if Becker's bigger hitting was his main advantage over Lendl. I think it had more to do with Becker's superior natural talent for moving to the ball and knowing when to attack. Lendl truly was robotic when it came to point construction, and a guy like Becker will just zero in on those patterns and T off all day. He could never do that with Sampras, who was even more of an explosive mover and had better natural instincts than Becker. It wasn't just sheer power.
 
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The Gorilla

Banned
Lendl had the better forehand but Agassi's was bigger back then ('87-'89) . Everyone said it. Lendl himself said it. But he also said that when he was younger and went for more that is forehand was equal to Agassi's in pace. As for Gonzo's, I think his has more pace then the both Agassi and Lendl.

lendl's forehand got more powerful as he got older, gonzalez' coack says that lendl hit as big as gonzalez.Lendl's forehand was bigger than Fed's is now, Agassi never had the best forehand on the world, in his entire career.
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
Gorilla, Lendly had an awesome forheand>>> there is no doubt about that>>>> for his time.

However, his forehand is nowehere near that of Gonzalez, Fed, or even Agassi's when he retired.
 

Mick

Legend
Gorilla, Lendly had an awesome forheand>>> there is no doubt about that>>>> for his time.

However, his forehand is nowehere near that of Gonzalez, Fed, or even Agassi's when he retired.

The way Lendl hit the forehand is quite unique. Nobody else would wind it up and hit it the way he did.
 

35ft6

Legend
^ I think Federer has a bigger forehand than Lendl did. I think Blake, Berdych, and Safin do, too. And Roddick definitely used to, and as for the clay courters, it's tougher to tell. Lendl hit pretty flat so I'm not sure about guys like Verdasco, Nadal, and Gonzalez if we're talking sheer speed.
 

BeckerFan

Rookie
Lendl had one of the great forehands. He pretty much wrote the book on the inside-out FH. It was not as natural as Borg's, though, and I certainly wouldn't rate it as high as Federer's.
 

TheTruth

G.O.A.T.
I'm almost positive he said this about Agassi. It may have been after a match against Andre in the former Mt. Vermont tournament. It's possible he said about Becker, too, a few years before meeting Agassi. Mac, being a serve and volleyer, probably meant it in the context of Agassi's returns, the likes of which he'd probably never seen before. Yeah, Connors had a great return, too, but he didn't rip it like Andre did. Just want to point out that this is a self defeating argument. If we're to believe the bolded part, we must disregard the bolded part. Who cares? Of course former players who become coaches, who get to run tennis federations and coach Davis Cup teams -- of course their opinions are better informed. Nobody asks a drunken TW poster to give an impromptu interview the way Wilander was.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, because there are many "experts" whose opinions vary greatly, whose do you believe? Is Wertheim's opinion better than Tignor's? Evert's better than Shriver's? Is the majority of your opinion coming from one source? There are too many factors involved, so I respectfully disagree with your logic and stand by my statement!
 

Zimbo

Semi-Pro
lendl's forehand got more powerful as he got older, gonzalez' coack says that lendl hit as big as gonzalez.Lendl's forehand was bigger than Fed's is now, Agassi never had the best forehand on the world, in his entire career.

Gorrila. If you read my post carefully I never said that Agassi had the best forehand. I said Lendl had the best. But I did say Agassi's was bigger. I know you don't agree with me but Lendl even said it. So I guess I'll take Lendl's words over yours. Lendl also said he was hitting harder off the forehand side when he was younger so again I'll take his words over yours. Maybe Lendl was hitting harder late in his career. It's probably when he switched rackets so I'll give you that. But the argument was during the period of '87-'89 when Lendl was still using that puny racket. How come you are so hell bent in your theory that Lendl had the biggest forehand? Where do you get this idea? I'm guessing from watching him play. Was it just on TV or was it live? Well I watch both Agassi and Lendl live and my opinion was Agassi's forehand was bigger during '87-'89. So, your opinion differs from mine. That's cool, because it's our opinion. The tie break is that Lendl himself said Agassi hits harder off that wing. Nuff said.
 

35ft6

Legend
We'll have to agree to disagree then, because there are many "experts" whose opinions vary greatly, whose do you believe? Is Wertheim's opinion better than Tignor's? Evert's better than Shriver's? Is the majority of your opinion coming from one source? There are too many factors involved, so I respectfully disagree with your logic and stand by my statement!
That's fine. But I was just pointing out that your thoughts on opinions aren't very logical.
 
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The Gorilla

Banned
Gorrila. If you read my post carefully I never said that Agassi had the best forehand. I said Lendl had the best. But I did say Agassi's was bigger. I know you don't agree with me but Lendl even said it. So I guess I'll take Lendl's words over yours. Lendl also said he was hitting harder off the forehand side when he was younger so again I'll take his words over yours. Maybe Lendl was hitting harder late in his career. It's probably when he switched rackets so I'll give you that. But the argument was during the period of '87-'89 when Lendl was still using that puny racket. How come you are so hell bent in your theory that Lendl had the biggest forehand? Where do you get this idea? I'm guessing from watching him play. Was it just on TV or was it live? Well I watch both Agassi and Lendl live and my opinion was Agassi's forehand was bigger during '87-'89. So, your opinion differs from mine. That's cool, because it's our opinion. The tie break is that Lendl himself said Agassi hits harder off that wing. Nuff said.



but I know for a fact that he hit bigger as he got older, we all do, look at his us open final against mcenroe and his aus open final against becker, the difference is incredible.
 

TheTruth

G.O.A.T.
That's fine. But I was just pointing out that you're thoughts on opinions isn't very logical.

Don't know what you mean, but it's quite simple. I take my own insights and form my own opinions from the world around me, rather than (a.) jump on the bandwagon, or (b.) believe everything that I hear. Rather, I take into account as many factors as I can to come up with my particular take on a situation. The reason being, most people's opinions to me sound like regurgitated bile from the ESPN booth, unoriginal and unresearched. Also, I wouldn't dare side with commentators that I already have a low opinion of.
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
And that, is a matter of technology, not technique.

I disagree. Just look at the force in their swings compared to Lendl's.

In fact, just looks at Sampras' forehand which had way more pace than Lenlds, and he used a racquet equal to Lendls.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
I disagree. Just look at the force in their swings compared to Lendl's.

how?

In fact, just looks at Sampras' forehand which had way more pace than Lenlds
,

no.

and he used a racquet equal to Lendls.

He used a racquet that was at least ten inches bigger, possibly 15 I'm not sure, Lendl's racquet was 70-75 inches squared, his racquet is the size of a modern day squah racquet.Federer's 90 inch racquet has 15-20 inches squared greater area.




Not having seen Lendl play in years I thought, like everyone, that Federer's forehand was the best I had ever seen, but Laurie posted the Sampras v Becker '91 Australian open up on her site and I was shocked by how hard he hit the ball.It was incredible.


furthermore:

''
Article : Mr Forehand

Mr Forehand by Jake Niall
January 26, 2007


Fernando Gonzalez, or “Signor Derecha” - Spanish for “Mr Forehand” - in action at the Australian Open. I know I have one of the best forehands on tour, but I need to improve my backhand, my net game, my return of serve.

In his decades of coaching, playing and watching the greats, Larry Stefanki has seen only one forehand as potent as that of his pupil Fernando Gonzalez.

Stefanki is on the run to his man’s final major practice session before Gonzalez plays Tommy Haas for a berth in the Australian Open final. The interview, thus, is done busy West Wing style, rushing down the corridor, interrupted by the sagacious coach’s conversations with Jimmy Connors and others.

Is there another forehand like Fernando’s? “No, he has the best forehand in the game,” said Stefanki, who coached John McEnroe in Mac’s dotage, dual slam winner Yevgeny Kafelnikov, Tim Henman, and guided another Chilean, Marcelo Rios, to the No. 1 ranking. Historically, there was only one forehand in the league of Gonzalez: “Lendl”. That’s the only one? “Yeah.” ''

http://fernandogonzalez.wordpress.com/tag/fernandos-articles/
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru

Just look at a video of Lendl hitting a forehand and then Sampras. You could clearly see Sampras swung much faster.

Although I personally feel Lendl had the better forehand.

He used a racquet that was at least ten inches bigger, possibly 15 I'm not sure, Lendl's racquet was 70-75 inches squared, his racquet is the size of a modern day squah racquet.Federer's 90 inch racquet has 15-20 inches squared greater area.

Lendl used a racquet between 75-80 square inches. (There has been much discussion of this board about his racquet). Later in his career he switched to a 90 inch, and possibly even played with a 95 inch.

Sampras always stayed with the PS 85.

As I said, there racquets were very comparable. So Nick Irons saying it was due to the technology is BS.
 

Nick Irons

Semi-Pro
So Nick Irons saying it was due to the technology is BS.

The only BS is you thinking you're a tennis player Draculie and with each and every post by you that I have to siphon through, it reminds me of the staggering number of kooks in the sport.

You stated:

However, his forehand is nowehere near that of Gonzalez, Fed, or even Agassi's when he retired.

I then replied with

And that, is a matter of technology, not technique.

Gonzo, Fed and Andre are using insanely quantam developed racquets compared to Ivans little 80 sq inchers.

Where you started talking about Pistol Pete's Wilson 85 is beyond me. On that note, the reality is that Petes racquet was bigger, lighter, it's graphite composition was different (as oppossed to Ivan's Kevlar mix for example) among other variables (using shared holes).

See, me making a remark about technology isn't saying IVAN IS THE GREATEST EVER; it is merely an observation on Agassi, Gonzo and Federer's current fh's compared to Lendl's; nothing more, nothing less.

Please try and stay on course in these discussions and not try and turn every reply into a flamefest.
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
Please try and stay on course in these discussions and not try and turn every reply into a flamefest.

Hmm??? Interesting. And what does the following comment have to do with this discussion? The only one repeatedly "flaming" is you, and in more ways than one.

The only BS is you thinking you're a tennis player Draculie and with each and every post by you that I have to siphon through, it reminds me of the staggering number of kooks in the sport.

I know what I stated. And I stand by my observation/opinion. Lendls forehand-regardless of technology is:

1. Nowhere near Feds, Gonzo's, or Agassis.
2. Regardless of technology, it did not have as much pace as Sampras'. They both used compareable racquets.
3. Lendl, as I already pointed out, used a 90+ square inch racquet later in his career. Which is bigger than Pete's 85. By the way, in case you haven't noticed--Fed hits with a 90 square inch racquet.


Don't be mad because you have a 65 mph serve, and got "owned" in your nadal thread.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=119518
 
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35ft6

Legend
Don't know what you mean,
Here's what I mean:
The fact is, we all have an opinion, and all opinions are subjective. Therefore, no one's opinion is any better than anyone else's.
This is a self defeating proposition, similar to a person saying (A) "the only thing that is objectively true is that everything is subjective." But if A is true, and EVERYTHING is subjective, than A is not objective as it claims.
but it's quite simple. I take my own insights and form my own opinions from the world around me, rather than (a.) jump on the bandwagon, or (b.) believe everything that I hear.
Bravo. You and everybody else here.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
Hmm??? Interesting. And what does the following comment have to do with this discussion? The only one repeatedly "flaming" is you, and in more ways than one.



I know what I stated. And I stand by my observation/opinion. Lendls forehand-regardless of technology is:

1. Nowhere near Feds, Gonzo's, or Agassis.
2. Regardless of technology, it did not have as much pace as Sampras'. They both used compareable racquets.
3. Lendl, as I already pointed out, used a 90+ square inch racquet later in his career. Which is bigger than Pete's 85. By the way, in case you haven't noticed--Fed hits with a 90 square inch racquet.


Don't be mad because you have a 65 mph serve, and got "owned" in your nadal thread.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=119518



just to put paid to this, could you measure the speed in mph of lendl's flat out forehand using your frame counting method drakulie?
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
just to put paid to this, could you measure the speed in mph of lendl's flat out forehand using your frame counting method drakulie?

Interesting. You may want to contact Maverick1. He is the one who worked on those calculations/formula with Mike Cotrill, and he may be able to do it. Not sure.
 

Zimbo

Semi-Pro
but I know for a fact that he hit bigger as he got older, we all do, look at his us open final against mcenroe and his aus open final against becker, the difference is incredible.

Gorilla I don't want to continue debating with you if you don't read my posts clearly. The argument is not if Lendl hit harder later in his career, which by the way he probably did (due to switching rackets) as I stated in my previous post, but the argument is wheather he hit a bigger forehand compared to Agassi during '87-'89. You still haven't answer my questions.
1. Did you see both Lendl and Agassi play live during that time? Watching them on TV doesn't count. If you did watch them on TV, did you watch the '88 US Open semi's and the '88 Masters. Yes Lendl won both matches but you could see that Agassi's forehand was bigger. (Again I am not saying better.)
2. What's your response on Lendl's own admission that Agassi's forehand was harder. (Again I am not saying better, I'm saying bigger).
3. This a new question. How do you know for a fact that he hit bigger as he got older? He may have, but how do you know for a fact?

Please answer these questions on your next reply.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
Gorilla I don't want to continue debating with you if you don't read my posts clearly. The argument is not if Lendl hit harder later in his career, which by the way he probably did (due to switching rackets) as I stated in my previous post, but the argument is wheather he hit a bigger forehand compared to Agassi during '87-'89. You still haven't answer my questions.
1. Did you see both Lendl and Agassi play live during that time? Watching them on TV doesn't count. If you did watch them on TV, did you watch the '88 US Open semi's and the '88 Masters. Yes Lendl won both matches but you could see that Agassi's forehand was bigger. (Again I am not saying better.)
2. What's your response on Lendl's own admission that Agassi's forehand was harder. (Again I am not saying better, I'm saying bigger).
3. This a new question. How do you know for a fact that he hit bigger as he got older? He may have, but how do you know for a fact?

Please answer these questions on your next reply.


(1)I didn't see them playing live at the time, but the camera angle on all matches is the same, allowing for easy and accurate comparison.


(2)ok first of all, the original question was which of the two had bigger forehands, agassi may have hit the ball harder at lendl than he had ever experienced, however I know that the ball travelled at a greater speed from lendl's racquet than agassi's as I watched them play on tv;the same way I know Federer hits bigger than Lendl, by comparing the two with my eyes.


(3)Because, using my eyes I noticed that it took less time for the ball to travel from on point to another, the same way I can tell if a car is a safe distance away from me to cross the road.
 

Zimbo

Semi-Pro
(1)I didn't see them playing live at the time, but the camera angle on all matches is the same, allowing for easy and accurate comparison.


(2)ok first of all, the original question was which of the two had bigger forehands, agassi may have hit the ball harder at lendl than he had ever experienced, however I know that the ball travelled at a greater speed from lendl's racquet than agassi's as I watched them play on tv;the same way I know Federer hits bigger than Lendl, by comparing the two with my eyes.


(3)Because, using my eyes I noticed that it took less time for the ball to travel from on point to another, the same way I can tell if a car is a safe distance away from me to cross the road.

Fair enough. I still disagree but what can you do? Still it's been a pleasure debating with you. Even though we disagree I am glad we still kept it civil and respectful. By the way, is Lendl you fav player? Even though I think Agassi's forehand was bigger I would take Lendl's over Agassi's any day. Lendl was able to do more things with it and knew when to unleash that beast at the perfect time.
 
Article : Mr Forehand

Mr Forehand by Jake Niall
January 26, 2007


Fernando Gonzalez, or “Signor Derecha” - Spanish for “Mr Forehand” - in action at the Australian Open. I know I have one of the best forehands on tour, but I need to improve my backhand, my net game, my return of serve.

In his decades of coaching, playing and watching the greats, Larry Stefanki has seen only one forehand as potent as that of his pupil Fernando Gonzalez.

Stefanki is on the run to his man’s final major practice session before Gonzalez plays Tommy Haas for a berth in the Australian Open final. The interview, thus, is done busy West Wing style, rushing down the corridor, interrupted by the sagacious coach’s conversations with Jimmy Connors and others.

Is there another forehand like Fernando’s? “No, he has the best forehand in the game,” said Stefanki, who coached John McEnroe in Mac’s dotage, dual slam winner Yevgeny Kafelnikov, Tim Henman, and guided another Chilean, Marcelo Rios, to the No. 1 ranking. Historically, there was only one forehand in the league of Gonzalez: “Lendl”. That’s the only one? “Yeah.” ''

http://fernandogonzalez.wordpress.com/tag/fernandos-articles/


So your proof that Federer's forehand is not as good as Lendl's is the fact Stefanki, the biased Gonzalez coach chose to say his pupil's forehand and Lendl's are the two best in history? Well the credability of his statement is already gone by the simple fact Federer has proven his own forehand to be superior to Gonzalez every single time they have played, producing better stats of that side in every match.
 

35ft6

Legend
^ Wow, Stefanki just lost some credibility with me. For him to really sit there and say Gonzalez has a better forehand than Federer...? Wow.
 
Well I can understand since even though as outsiders we wouldnt judge Gonzalez to have a better forehand then Federer. However if Gonzalez cant outdo Federer on the forehand, he wont be able to outdo him on anything. So to make Gonzalez feel he has any shot whatsoever to beat Federer, which a good coach has to do, he has to believe Gonzalez has a better forehand and convey that belief to his player somehow. Since Lendl is not a current opponent of Gonzalez it is more manageable to be objective.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
Fair enough. I still disagree but what can you do? Still it's been a pleasure debating with you. Even though we disagree I am glad we still kept it civil and respectful. By the way, is Lendl you fav player? Even though I think Agassi's forehand was bigger I would take Lendl's over Agassi's any day. Lendl was able to do more things with it and knew when to unleash that beast at the perfect time.


actually I ated Lendl, he was boring, but his groundstrokes were undoubtedly the best.
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
I agree with those who describe Agassi hitting the ball harder earlier in his career. He was flashy and overhit early. His game could be great or a self-destruct button and his results reflected that, up and down. Then came Gilbert's and Gil Reyes influence which enabled his transformation into his "Punisher" incarnation where he reigned in his propensity for blasting and which allowed him to rely on his superior level of fitness. In his last couple of years, increasingly so, Agassi was forced to up the pace simply because he had lost a step plus and in a baseline game predicated on the ability to set up and grind that step or step in a half is the difference between dominating or being dominated by an opponent. Especially v. Federer Agassi couldn't grind anymore. His serve did improve throughout his career but it still was never a noteworthy weapon compared to the rest of his game nor his peers. And toward the end of his career he took his "puncher's chance" going for more haymakers, against Roger in particular, than he did in his prime but it was still not the point to point, shot to shot, power off the ground he demonstrated at the very beginning of his professional career.

It's not at all unusual. Sampras ratcheted down the power in his ground game under Gullickson who harped on him adding topspin off the ground. More recently Roddick and Gonzo have improved their own games dialing down their own ground games and employing their improved movement and fitness levels. Late, as Sampras aged losing a tick in quickness and footspeed his inate ability to generate power crept back into his game and we'll likely see ARod and Gonzalez return to hitting harder than they are now as there core athletic skills begin to slip with age.
 
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drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
^^^^^Agassi undoubtedly went for more earlier in his career. He tried to finish points quick.

However, it is very evident he hit much harder and cleaner later in his career. Even he states he was hitting much harder off both wings. This wasn't necessarily because of him losing a step.

In addition, Gullickson worked with Sampras on the backhand side, wanting him to hit more Topspin on that side, rather than slicing so much.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
^^^^^Agassi undoubtedly went for more earlier in his career. He tried to finish points quick.

However, it is very evident he hit much harder and cleaner later in his career. Even he states he was hitting much harder off both wings. This wasn't necessarily because of him losing a step.

In addition, Gullickson worked with Sampras on the backhand side, wanting him to hit more Topspin on that side, rather than slicing so much.


yeah, in the US open '06 he was just crushing the ball.It reminded me of Rocky Balbos, where to paraphrase the coach:You've no movement, no flexibilty and you have calcium deposits(sciatic nerve).we're gonna focus on making hurtin' bombs.
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
^^^^ I'm not talking about his last match-- rather his last few years. And quite frankly, against Baghdatis he WAS crushing the ball.
 

BeckerFan

Rookie
If pressed, I would probably have to agree that Sampras's opponents were a bit tougher. There certainly seemed to be more guys with a winning formula for grass.

The difference is pretty insignificant though, if you ask me. Sure, Sampras played with a number of Hall of Famers ... but the Hall of Fame includes a lot of guys who aren't exactly all-time greats. Hell, some of Federer's supporting cast will probably end up there one day (Nadal, Safin, Hewitt, Roddick, and who knows about the younger guys). History's not exactly going to look back 50 years from now and perceive a HUGE disparity between the competition in the 1990s and the competition in the 2000s.

The main issue for me is that neither had a fellow all-time great to push them throughout their careers. The closest they both had was Agassi. Agassi was very on-and-off during Sampras's best years, and never really found the answer to playing Sampras on the big stages. And he didn't even come CLOSE to finding the answer against Federer. Nothing like Connors/Borg/McEnroe or Lendl/Wilander/Becker/Edberg ... those were eras with some genuine strength at the top.
 

Zimbo

Semi-Pro
I agree with those who describe Agassi hitting the ball harder earlier in his career. He was flashy and overhit early. His game could be great or a self-destruct button and his results reflected that, up and down. Then came Gilbert's and Gil Reyes influence which enabled his transformation into his "Punisher" incarnation where he reigned in his propensity for blasting and which allowed him to rely on his superior level of fitness. In his last couple of years, increasingly so, Agassi was forced to up the pace simply because he had lost a step plus and in a baseline game predicated on the ability to set up and grind that step or step in a half is the difference between dominating or being dominated by an opponent. Especially v. Federer Agassi couldn't grind anymore. His serve did improve throughout his career but it still was never a noteworthy weapon compared to the rest of his game nor his peers. And toward the end of his career he took his "puncher's chance" going for more haymakers, against Roger in particular, than he did in his prime but it was still not the point to point, shot to shot, power off the ground he demonstrated at the very beginning of his professional career.

It's not at all unusual. Sampras ratcheted down the power in his ground game under Gullickson who harped on him adding topspin off the ground. More recently Roddick and Gonzo have improved their own games dialing down their own ground games and employing their improved movement and fitness levels. Late, as Sampras aged losing a tick in quickness and footspeed his inate ability to generate power crept back into his game and we'll likely see ARod and Gonzalez return to hitting harder than they are now as there core athletic skills begin to slip with age.

I've been waiting for someone to back me up. Glad it's someone who actually knows what he's talking about.
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
^^^^^ So because he agrees with you, he knows what he is talking about, and everyone in this thread who does not agree with you doesn't know what they are talking about?

In addition, Agassi (who disagrees with you), doesn't know what he is talking about? I'm quite certain, Agassi who happens to be the one who is hitting the ball, could make a determination of when he hit harder. >>>>>He said he hit much harder later in his career.
 

!Tym

Hall of Fame
I agree with Moose Malloy entirely. Players often times get the feeling that they're playing better now than before if they're like Agassi and Sampras and relatively able to continue with their careers too abruptly halted by injuries. Then, you have guys like Rios, Kuerten, and Bruguera who will point to matches way long ago as being, wow, wish I could play that well again. It's just a natural human psychology in my opinion to think that way, which is why guys like Agassi and Sampras will always believe that they're continuing to be such superior players as they continue. Yet, what did Rusedski say about him during his decline? He said that he had clearly lost a step. What did Stich say about Edberg when he declined? He said the guy's lost his speed, he's too slow, and he needs to retire. Guys, Edberg played at his peak in that Open final vs. Courier. Stich was in the zone that day against Becker at Wimbledon, etc. It happens. I honestly believe it is NOT the highest level of play that improves, it's players decline and they either do or don't realize it. I mean if you were to believe Agassi, you'd think he hit cream puffs or something in his earlier days. I remember bringing a former decently ranked junior who had quit the game cold turkey for five years because of burn out and just plain hating the game. He didn't even touch a racket during that time and couldn't even find his old ones anymore. I had been hitting with open players during that time, and got him to try it again. First 15 minutes he was whiffing at balls, literally swinging and missing, and very nervous and tentative. Then, I just started bashing balls at him, forcing him to just react again, and use his natural ability, within five minutes, he was banging balls back with me. After twenty minutes more, you would NOT have been able to tell that he wasn't an open player. He was going toe to toe with me, and hardly missing a beat. That summer, he ended up training one of the elite juniors on the east coast, and again did not miss a beat. That told me VOLUMES.

It truly showed me how much of this "perceived improvement" and oh my God, I'd never be able to keep up now, improvement is in our HEADS and PERCEPTION. That's why Gene Mayer did what he did as a forty something year old on vacation, when asked to fill in at the last second as a favor at a challenger. He smoked the guy who months later took Sampras to the brink of defeat at the French, and had he not got tired and basically thrown in the towel, was routining Mike Bryan (back then the Bryan's actually tried to play some singles as well). He had NOT been training seriously AT ALL. Now what does that tell you? We're not even talking about some legend of the game here.

I'm telling you Agassi can say what he wants, but a lot of this IS in our heads. If you're playing a lot and not overly taken out of the game by injury (which Agassi wasn't until the tail end...and there you saw suddenly how he too suddenly "looked his age" when he too couldn't fight off the injury bug anymore), then it's human nature to be thinking yeah, wow, I'm improving each and every day. But the fact is, these guys hit soooo much, in my opinion, there really isn't that much more they can do better than their best days from before. As I said, you're best days just become less likely as you get older and/or more injured or burnt out. This does not mean that a grown old man like Agassi who later in life stopped taking as wild cuts at the ball, suddenly hits harder than he did before. It's about racket head speed, and the young Agassi was far from gun shy. I mean look Olivier Rochus is a small guy, but he generates a lot of racket head speed, he can still paste the ball pretty good. Things do not change that much in my opinion.

I mean if I'm playing everyday and start getting in a groove, I start to think wow, I've never hit better. Why? Because by human nature you remember the SENSATION of being in the zone of a more RECENT zone experience. It by nature will "feel" more alive and vivid in your head, and like you're just so much better than before. Yet, what does that mean, Agassi's old best tennis was chump change by comparison? NO. That was world class tennis and ability still, and we only remember the latest though.

And furthermore, the broadcast quality does make a HUGE difference as Moose points out. He points to the the final game of the Bruguera-Courier final where Courier was swinging from his pantyhose with absolutely ZERO fear...cough-cough, now compare that to the so-called "modern" Coria vs. Gaudio "epic" final game...cough-cough.

Moose has a copy of the Bruguera-Leconte French match from that same 93 tourny. The broadcast quality on that match was just soooo bad though, the sound and colors soooo washed out and muted, that it was like NOT ONE single shot "felt" alive or hard or smoked...NOT ONE for an entire match; you would think they were in the nerf ball age vs. the modern age they played at it in the finals...just, gasp, a few matches later. Then, I have the tape of the 96 US Open between Stich and Bruguera, and again the same washed out/muted broadcast feed from Eurosport, and again NOT ONE single ball struck that entire match felt "live" or hard hit or "modern." You're telling me two guys that tall, and NOT ONE single ball or point "felt" or "seemed" modern? I don't think so, when fast forward just gasp...a few months, and you have the 97 Lipton finals between between Muster and Bruguera and the 97 Wimbledon semis between Stich and Pioline. In these matches, the sound quality was very good and MODERN. In that they had that "gun shot," you're right there on the court, "live" sound quality and feel to them. That makes/made ALL the difference in terms of perception. Watch and hear those BROADCAST FEEDS right now, and I have no doubt that many would say wow, that actually surprisingly does APPEAR to be fairly "modern" play. IF, however, you point to the horrible broadcast feeds, you'll hear oh my God, a 4.5 could take them, my uncle Harry could take them, Conchita Martinez' modern newphew could take them, etc. Those guys are hitting less harder than moi!

YET, I GUARANTEE you take your local great hack, and let's see them do what Gene Mayer did. It would not happen in a MILLION years. The Gene Mayer story is reality and it does not even surprise me because what I saw with my old friend. That experience proved to me right there how much of it is in our head, heck in my friend's head. He was like oh no, I can't hit anymore...the game has passed me by for sure. Then, wouldn't you know.... Once he stopped being tentative and second guessing himself and relying on his PERCEPTION and "logic" of how well he should be playing, in other words, when I just said, this isn't working, and on a hunch started stuffing the ball down his throat thinking that would "help" him find his form much quicker and more naturally because it'd make him just start REACTING out there and using his own natural ability and HAND-EYE coordination to guide him. And it worked, and it worked almost INSTANTLY. You wouldn't believe it unless you were there to see the AMAZING transformation in a matter of minutes that just went on, from a guy who hadn't touched a racket in five years or so.

Someone just posted a Muster Bruguera from the 97 Lipton finals, and it is a good example of just how "modern" these old guys could hit WHEN they were given the benefit of not modern technology and strings so much as modern SOUND and a modern feeling broadcast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3xovDYu8Wk&mode=related&search=

This is the 5th clip out of eight which takes you through the first set. The tie break (clips 7 and 8) go out of sink, unfortunately, by several seconds half way a quarter of the way through. It was so hot that day, that Bruguera basically threw in the towel at the end of the tiebreak, because Muster's fitness was so crazy. However, you'll not amazing topspin, athleticism, speed, and explosiveness right up there with today's best in my opinion, and *without* any Babolats or Luxilon either. I think clips 5, 6, 7, and 8...i.e. NOT just an isolated highlight...go a long way to proving Moose's "theory." The game was STILL modern back then too, the difference, however, is that PERCEPTIONS are much more likely to change than reality in my opinion. The technique is PLENTY modern in these clips and so too is the at times gasp...racket head speed. Yes, people back then too could gaps at racket head speed, they did NOT swing THAT slowly, the techniques have NOT been revolutionized since.
 

35ft6

Legend
^ Aside from the players, and retired players, what do you say of all the commentators and coaches who say the same thing?
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
Aside from the players, and retired players, what do you say of all the commentators and coaches who say the same thing?

It's a difficult argument either way, really. The pace of the game was faster 10 years ago, but today's game is noticeably heavier. If the game was as flat as it was 15 years ago, Sampras probably would have a dominant 1H BH.

In terms of modern stroke and service technique, I don't think it's changed all that much in the past 10 years except for a handful of elite players. And even then, it's largely the forehand.
 

35ft6

Legend
It's a difficult argument either way, really. The pace of the game was faster 10 years ago, but today's game is noticeably heavier. If the game was as flat as it was 15 years ago, Sampras probably would have a dominant 1H BH.

In terms of modern stroke and service technique, I don't think it's changed all that much in the past 10 years except for a handful of elite players. And even then, it's largely the forehand.
My personal feeling is that the top 10 of today and top 10 of 5, 10, 15, maybe even 20 years ago, it's close, but vast difference between guys ranked 20 to 150, the difference becoming greater with time. Maybe that's what Sampras meant. I mean, do we all agree on that? For instance, if you had the guys ranked 50 to 100 play their rankings counterpart of 1990, today's 50 players would win? Like maybe 40 to 10 or something?
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
If the game was as flat as it was 15 years ago, Sampras probably would have a dominant 1H BH.

Sampras didn't have a "dominant" backhand 15 years ago. So what leads you to the conclusion that he would have a dominant backhand now?
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
Great post !Tym. Agreed with you %100.
Then you're confused? !Tym covered every possibility in his post:
They ARE better.
They're NOT better.
They only THINK they're better.
They compare their game to their peak performance.
Their peaks cannot be surpassed.
Their "baseline" game/level doesn't improve.
Their "baseline" level does improve.

!Tym - You could be in politics....

- KK
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Pete is a class act end of story, as of how good the players are you can not deny the win/lose and rankings

Fact is Andy is only now getting back up on his feet and still is no where near what he once was, same for Hewitt, same for Safin, ect.

So how are these tennis players better now days when all the numbers say they are worse?

All of the real competitors are either not up to par or for the young guys not yet up to par.

The rest of the people like Nadal ect are really only great on one surface and that is clay, while we have a really really strange line up where Nalbandian, Davydanko, Lubicic ect are at the top.

When players like that are at the top you know something is wrong.


We are in a transition and have been for quite some time, all the true possbile champions have been out of the picture for a very long time and are only now getting back.

While all the young guys are not yet full matured ect to rise to the top.

So you end up with a lot of good but not great players in the top 5.

Once the past GS winners come back into form the like of Lubicic, Robredo, ect will not be in the top 10 any more, and they will be pushed out even further as the young players get better and then take over in the next 2-3 years.
 
The transition period was when Hewitt and Roddick were on top. They were only keeping a seat warm until Federer was ready, once he was he killed them all the time. In 2004 and 2005 Hewitt and Roddick were 2nd and 3rd in the world alot of the time and Federer kept beating them in semis and finals because he is way better then them. If Federer was in his prime sooner Hewitt would never have been #1 and probably won zero slams, same with Roddick. Lucky for them they got the transition period before Federer took over.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
That is one shot. You dont have a dominant shot with one shot. Sampras's backhand is nowhere near the backhands of Agassi or Federer for example, a youtube highlight doesnt show anything different. Maybe Rusedski even hit a spectacular backhand on a youtube clip for all we know, maybe his backhand is spectacular.

watch the clip m8, before he changed his backhand it was up there with edbergs, much better than Federer.
He used to play Federer's game, and played it better than Federer, in every department, but back in those fast Grass days it was impossible to win on grass with that game.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
Gorilla, Sampras NEVER, in his entire Career had a dominant backhand. In fact, his backhand was better towards the end of his career.>>> It had more variety, from slice to topspin, and he drove thru the ball more. This is one of the things Gullickson specifically worked with him to improve.

that's not true, watch the youtube clip, it is an entire match with Gilbert in 1990.
 
Gorilla, Sampras NEVER, in his entire Career had a dominant backhand. In fact, his backhand was better towards the end of his career.>>> It had more variety, from slice to topspin, and he drove thru the ball more. This is one of the things Gullickson specifically worked with him to improve.

It is amazing what crap people think some of us will buy isnt it. The older Sampras lovers think that those of us who are Federer fans are teeny boppers or something who never saw Sampras play for almost his entire career, when we have, and think we will buy whatever nonsense they throw at us. Sampras and Edberg a much better backhand then Federer, Sampras a dominant backhand, etc....We werent born yesterday.

Also youtube clip to prove a point is annoying, people thinking 1 or 2 shots prove something, you have to hit a quality shot over and over for it to mean something.
 
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