Sampras vs Roddick - who has the better overall serve?

Who has got the better overall serve?

  • Andy Roddick

    Votes: 10 37.0%
  • Pete Sampras

    Votes: 16 59.3%
  • Both have equally good overall serves

    Votes: 1 3.7%

  • Total voters
    27

Heuristic

Hall of Fame
I'm sure many would say Sampras but concider this:

Mature Roddick served more aces and had a more imposing serve against the same opponent- see Roddick-Hewitt compared to Sampras-Hewitt.

Sampras himself stated that his serve got better with time, and that he was at his peak in 99 (for those thinking he played hewitt late in his career).

Roddick had a conciderably more powerful serve, even taking racket technology into account.

Who do you think most players would answer? I'm pretty sure Agassi would say Roddick... Fed probably Sampras (though 2002 Federer got aced by Roddick 14 times in just over 60 mins in Basel).
 
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Jannick

Rookie
I would say Sampras but it's hard to tell. He has one of the best second serves, if not the best second serve ever. Roddick had huge first serves, second one was okay.

Also Sampras lived in a serve and volley era, where serve was a different tool then it is in modern tennis.

Two of the best servers ever nevertheless.
 

Heuristic

Hall of Fame
I would say Sampras but it's hard to tell. He has one of the best second serves, if not the best second serve ever. Roddick had huge first serves, second one was okay.

Nah, Roddicks second serves were very good. He would be dead in the water if it wasn't. When I watch them both serve at their very best, I see very little difference aside from speed - so I would have to give it to Roddick. Both employed every aspect of the serve equally well - spins out wide, body serves, down the T aces... Hard to argue for Sampras IMO.
 

thrust

Legend
Who is the most overrated player here, Roddick or Nalbandian? Roddick had a great serve, but it only helped him win one slam. Also, not all the slams in the prime Roddick era were won by Federer, so why then did Andy only win one slam?
 

Jannick

Rookie
Roddick had new racquet technology, extended frame, would be weird if his serves were slower than Samps.
 

Jannick

Rookie
He also had far slower courts, yet aced more

Coming into this thread I thought you wanted to debate differences but it seems like you think Roddick is vastly superior to Sampras due to 'more aces, higher serve speed'.

That's not entirely what serve is about, also with new racquet technology and stiffer more powerfull frames it's hard to compare.
 

Heuristic

Hall of Fame
Coming into this thread I thought you wanted to debate differences but it seems like you think Roddick is vastly superior to Sampras due to 'more aces, higher serve speed'..

I adressed that. There is very little difference aside from power, and I don't for a moment think Pete would get up to 152 mph by a mere racket switch. Roddicks technique has to be said is better. I have seen sampras hit forehands just as hard as Andy, so I don't think it's down to size.
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
Roddick leads Sampras in hold% on EVERY SINGLE SURFACE.

Unless we assume that Roddick is the better overall player who holds more often despite having a worse serve, Roddick is easily the better server.

Since Sampras leads Roddick in break% by a healthy margin on every surface, we can safely conclude Sampras has the better ground game.

Ergo.

Roddick is easily the better server than Sampras.

It's not close.

The only reason to think Sampras is a better server is "erhmagherdd eye test" and being mouthbreathing idiot
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
Do you think Isner has better serves than Roddick?
Undoubtedly.

It's very clear that Karlovic>Isner is the top 2, then probably Raonic going by stats but then you get into an area where there's a few absolutely dreadful players who can do nothing but serve so apart from hitting a lot of aces their stats are still not great.
 

Jannick

Rookie
Obviously this is the one thing that determines serve prowess.

Let's just ignore that Roddick's 2nd serve points won% is more than 3% higher.

I think your statistics clearly prove that Roddicks serve is better. Do you have a source, they're pretty interesting.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm sure many would say Sampras but concider this:

Mature Roddick served more aces and had a more imposing serve against the same opponent- see Roddick-Hewitt compared to Sampras-Hewitt.

Players serve more aces now, showing that improved equipment beats surface slowdown as far as ace % is concerned. Extra spin helps, pace is not the only ace factor. Gathering stats on unreturned serve % would be more telling...

Who do you think most players would answer? I'm pretty sure Agassi would say Roddick... Fed probably Sampras (though 2002 Federer got aced by Roddick 14 times in just over 60 mins in Basel).

Roddick more consistent, Sampras peaked higher though.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Obviously this is the one thing that determines serve prowess.

Let's just ignore that Roddick's 2nd serve points won% is more than 3% higher.

That tells us Roddick had better average quality so he was better at botting mugs away. Sampras was better against non-mugs, check out his botting against top returners Courier and Agassi in non-RG slems.
 

Heuristic

Hall of Fame
That tells us Roddick had better average quality so he was better at botting mugs away. Sampras was better against non-mugs, check out his botting against top returners Courier and Agassi in non-RG slems.

Agassi who got aced a storm by Federer.. Ehm.. no... Let's not take him into it.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
As could Federer. Do you think Federers serve is better than Roddick too? I was talking about Isner compared Roddick..

Federer didn't exactly face peak movement Agassi, and really only served through him in 05 when Andre's movement declined further compared even to 04. 03 TMC final was an exception as Federer was serving unusually aggressive, leading to a high ace rate but also low 1st serve % - Federer could get away with it since he was winning rallies as well, that's not old stonefeeterer who'd get in huge trouble serving 50% against any top opponent.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Agassi was never a fast player. He was about average, if not slightly below.

You aren't refuting my statement, and that's right 'cause it's true.

Agassi took an aggressive returning strategy so he was a bit easier to ace but his returns were more devastating when they connected. Sampras regularly getting strings of quick service points against Agassi, especially under duress, is testament to his service clutchness.

Roddick was generally a clutch server as well, sure, but not as consistently, as we can see by many Slam losses where he had even or better stats than the opponent (AO 04, USO 04, USO 05, AO 06, Wim 07, Wim 08, USO 09, Wim 10 - those happen for every player, but 8 in 7 years is a darn lot).
 

Heuristic

Hall of Fame
You aren't refuting my statement, and that's right 'cause it's true.

Agassi took an aggressive returning strategy so he was a bit easier to ace but his returns were more devastating when they connected. Sampras regularly getting strings of quick service points against Agassi, especially under duress, is testament to his service clutchness.

Roddick was generally a clutch server as well, sure, but not as consistently, as we can see by many Slam losses where he had even or better stats than the opponent (AO 04, USO 04, USO 05, AO 06, Wim 07, Wim 08, USO 09, Wim 10 - those happen for every player, but 8 in 7 years is a darn lot).

What does clutch server mean?
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
What does clutch server mean?

Maintaining (or even improving) serving level under pressure compared to match average, and not allowing lapses (underperformance relative to match average).

For example, 1995 AO final is clutch for Sampras even though he lost, because Agassi was generally the better player in every set yet Sampras stole the first (being clutch saving 3 BPs at 4-4, and Agassi being unclutch by DFing twice to get broken in the next game) and nearly won the third (again saving multiple BPs and going from 0-3 to 6-4 in the breaker, this time though Agassi came up with a perfect 1st serve return winner). At the same time, the 08 Wimbledon loss to Tipsarevic is totally unclutch for Roddick, as he held serve dominantly for much of the match but got broken as soon as he faced trouble (according to ATP stats Roddick won 76% on serve - usually that means not getting broken at all, instead he saved 0/2 BPs while converting 0/9, 100% BP failure).
 

Heuristic

Hall of Fame
Maintaining (or even improving) serving level under pressure compared to match average, and not allowing lapses (underperformance relative to match average).

For example, 1995 AO final is clutch for Sampras even though he lost, because Agassi was generally the better player in every set yet Sampras stole the first (being clutch saving 3 BPs at 4-4, and Agassi being unclutch by DFing twice to get broken in the next game) and nearly won the third (again saving multiple BPs and going from 0-3 to 6-4 in the breaker, this time though Agassi came up with a perfect 1st serve return winner). At the same time, the 08 Wimbledon loss to Tipsarevic is totally unclutch for Roddick, as he held serve dominantly for much of the match but got broken as soon as he faced trouble (according to ATP stats Roddick won 76% on serve - usually that means not getting broken at all, instead he saved 0/2 BPs while converting 0/9, 100% BP failure).

Why isn't just break points saved a good enough statistic? The funny thing is that they both have 68%. Just goes to show you just how close their serves are.
 

Heuristic

Hall of Fame
That tells us Roddick had better average quality so he was better at botting mugs away. Sampras was better against non-mugs, check out his botting against top returners Courier and Agassi in non-RG slems.

Roddick had 68% second serve points won against Federer in Montreal 2003. 48% second serves won in 2004. 48% US open quarters 2007. Excellent numbers for a player light years away in playing strength, which Sampras of course wasn't against his peers.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Why isn't just break points saved a good enough statistic? The funny thing is that they both have 68%. Just goes to show you just how close their serves are.

Over the whole career BP saved % aligns closely with overall SPW%, unsurprisingly. I'm stressing big/top matches - Roddick was fairly clutch, but Sampras is something else.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Roddick had 68% second serve points won against Federer in Montreal 2003. 48% second serves won in 2004. 48% US open quarters 2007. Excellent numbers for a player light years away in playing strength, which Sampras of course wasn't against his peers.

<50% excellent, LOL!

03 Canada was a huge outlier, Roddick played a great first set but Federer choked big time in the end (would've become #1 had he won and couldn't handle it). Roddick's best against prime Fed is 53% on 2nd serve.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Roddick's 1st serve win % against Fedr was actually more problematic: he ony cleared 75% in 7 of their 24 matches, which isn't cool for a server of his top caliber. PETE managed that in 23 of his 32 matches against Agassi (not counting a retirement).
 

Heuristic

Hall of Fame
Roddick's 1st serve win % against Fedr was actually more problematic: he ony cleared 75% in 7 of their 24 matches, which isn't cool for a server of his top caliber. PETE managed that in 23 of his 32 matches against Agassi (not counting a retirement).

Can't compare the two. Federer was a far better big serve returner than Agassi.
 

Heuristic

Hall of Fame
How do you know?
Circular logic incoming?

Because I have seen Agassi returning throughout his career! He was one the biggest targets to ace. Most big servers over performed against him. Henman barely let any serves by him and was much better at handling both the Roddick and Sampras serve.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Because I have seen Agassi returning throughout his career! He was one the biggest targets to ace. Most big servers over performed against him. Henman barely let any serves by him and was much better at handling both the Roddick and Sampras serve.

TIL Henman is a better returner than Agassi :laughing:
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Superior footwork, returns, transition game, positioning, volley, forehand, backhand, touch, consistency. I'd say that's light years away.

Serve & FH are the most important though and Roddick's peak serve+FH combo was as good as Federer's so less of a difference - though that's also what made him a cozy match-up. Return+BH (lefty FH in Nadal's case) players bothered Federer the most relative to their abilities (Nalbandian, Davydenko, Djokovic), though the former two were ultimately let down by lack of elite serve+FH.
 

Heuristic

Hall of Fame
TIL Henman is a better returner than Agassi :laughing:

Henman got more big serves into play. He was a much weaker player once that happened though. Federer got more balls into play and was a better tennis player than Andre agassi. Compare the data yourself, it's not even close. Agassi was one of the worst. You would have thought sampras was karlovic based on how his serve looked against agassi.
 

Heuristic

Hall of Fame
Serve & FH are the most important though and Roddick's peak serve+FH combo was as good as Federer's.

No it wasn't. Roddicks old flat forehand was a hit or miss shot, and usually only good for inside out or straight down the pipe. It was not a great cross court forehand. I loved watching him back then but it was nowhere near as consistent of a shot as the federer forehand.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Henman got more big serves into play. He was a much weaker player once that happened though. Federer got more balls into play and was a better tennis player than Andre agassi. Compare the data yourself, it's not even close. Agassi was one of the worst. You would have thought sampras was karlovic based on how his serve looked against agassi.

Compare what data, % of serves returned? And where would that be available en masse?
 
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