Meles
Bionic Poster
No wonder his game has regressed. JCF is a clown if this was his advice.
Sascha Zverev and Carlos Ferrero in a war of words over their coaching split.
- Thread starter Aussie Darcy
- Start date
Alba Barragan
Professional
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Regardless of who is right and who is wrong in the Z vs JCF little feud, you can't really give much credit to JCF for the title in Washington when he was barely part of Z's team at that point, wasn't there in person (if I recall correctly), and just advised via phone calls. As you have said, there’s only so much blame you can put on a coach, and this also applies to the positive impact he may have had in such a short period of time. I do give him credit for Montreal, though.
The truth is Zverev was having not brilliant, but at least pretty good results the first half of 2017 (wins in Montpellier, Munich, Rome, finals in Halle), then JCF arrived, Z peaked and then completely crashed. Apart from the initial weeks, result-wise, it hasn't been the most productive partnership. It makes sense they, or at least Z, wanted to part ways. This doesn't necessarily mean JCF is a bad coach and/or Zverev is a bad person/athlete, both of them have proved they know and respect the sport, and have what it takes to win titles (had in the case of JCF, and Z to a lesser level, but still).
Other players have split with their coaches with the same or even worse kind of comments being exchanged, yet people in this forum have barely given them attention or tried to find who is the good and the bad guy in the situation. When Z is involved though, most users are eager to crucify him
Ok, let’s watch Zverev have a great few months without JCF, win Indian Wells or Miami, defend his Rome Masters title and finally make a slam QF and SF. If he fails to do so, maybe people will get their heads out and realise that JCF wasn’t the problem and that Zverev is.Regardless of who is right and who is wrong in the Z vs JCF little feud, you can't really give much credit to JCF for the title in Washington when he was barely part of Z's team at that point, wasn't there in person (if I recall correctly), and just advised via phone calls. As you have said, there’s only so much blame you can put on a coach, and this also applies to the positive impact he may have had in such a short period of time. I do give him credit for Montreal, though.
The truth is Zverev was having not brilliant, but at least pretty good results the first half of 2017 (wins in Montpellier, Munich, Rome, finals in Halle), then JCF arrived, Z peaked and then completely crashed. Apart from the initial weeks, result-wise, it hasn't been the most productive partnership. It makes sense they, or at least Z, wanted to part ways. This doesn't necessarily mean JCF is a bad coach and/or Zverev is a bad person/athlete, both of them have proved they know and respect the sport, and have what it takes to win titles (had in the case of JCF, and Z to a lesser level, but still).
Other players have split with their coaches with the same or even worse kind of comments being exchanged, yet people in this forum have barely given them attention or tried to find who is the good and the bad guy in the situation. When Z is involved though, most users are eager to crucify him
I can’t believe how much blame you are putting on JCF and yet staying silent about Zverev’s role. Alba, you say that Zverev isn’t the only one to blame and yet at no point in your post did you lay any blame on him. ‘JCF wasn’t there when he won titles, he was new, his results fell. It’s just excuse after excuse after excuse for Zverev. I can’t wait to quote your posts every single time Zverev loses before the QF of a tournament.
I’m sure you’ll respond now trying to somehow justify any potential upcoming early losses because you seem to love the excuses.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Ok, let’s watch Zverev have a great few months, win Indian Wells or Miami, defend his Rome Masters title and finally make a slam QF and SF. If he fails to do so, maybe people will get their heads out and realise that JCF wasn’t the problem and that Zverev is.
I can’t believe how much blame you are putting on JCF and yet staying silent about Zverev’s role. It’s just excuse after excuse after excuse. I can’t wait to quote your posts every single time Zverev loses before the QF of a tournament.
I’m sure you’ll respond now trying to somehow justify any potential upcoming early losses because you seem to love the excuses.
I am still waiting for Federer to defend his Rome title.
Oh, wait, he hasn't won one in the first place.
Must be super easy to defend it, then.
SQA333
Hall of Fame
Here is the five time sportsman of the year and the 13 time sportsmanship winner.
Once a jerk, always a jerk?
That’s just one occasion in the last 12 years.
Zverev on the other hand breaks racquets almost every match he loses.
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
And none of them are as glorious as the one single Fed break.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Cool? I’m not basing my entire decision on his potential title defence in Rome. We’ve got like 3 Masters til then anyway, let’s see if Zverev can actually win one without JCF and prove that the coach was the issue and not Zverev.I am still waiting for Federer to defend his Rome title.
Oh, wait, he hasn't won one in the first place.
Must be super easy to defend it, then.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Zverev has his whole career to prove his salt.
Requiring from a player that has been in a slump under the tutelage of his last trainer, and who ultimately just fired him/switched to bring his absolute best career results is not only unreasonable. It reeks of willingness to bash the said player, because he is set to fail due to unreasonable expectations.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Oh look another excuse. Wonder how long that’ll be used for.Zverev has his whole career to prove his salt.
Requiring from a player that has been in a slump under the tutelage of his last trainer, and who ultimately just fired him/switched to bring his absolute best career results is not only unreasonable. It reeks of willingness to bash the said player, because he is set to fail due to unreasonable expectations.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
If you find that to be an "excuse" do not wonder next time, why am I questioning your motivation to intervene in many a conversations the way you do.
The truth is that I am objectively commenting on the situation, as far as future results are concerned, and you are the one who is looking to attack a player when he is down.
Zverev might have personal shortcomings, but whatever results he might have, will not be indicative of absolutely anything, as it takes time to learn new things and execute different game plan than the one he has been taught in the last months.
Usually the success doesn't come instantly; that is a well known fact (for anyone who knows how these things work anyway) and not an "excuse" as you like to think.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
‘It just takes time’. I wonder how long it’ll take. Couple months? Couple years? Never?If you find that to be an "excuse" do not wonder next time, why am I questioning your motivation to intervene in many a conversations the way you do.
The truth is that I am objectively commenting on the situation, as far as future results are concerned, and you are the one who is looking to attack a player when he is down.
Zverev might have personal shortcomings, but whatever results he might have, will not be indicative of absolutely anything, as it takes time to learn new things and execute different game plan than the one he has been taught in the last months.
Usually the success doesn't come instantly; that is a well known fact (for anyone who knows how these things work anyway) and not an "excuse" as you like to think.
Hopefully it doesn’t take too long, blaming JCF for everything has an expiry date.
George Turner
Hall of Fame
Zverev is still only 20, still figuring out how to get the most out of his talents, still hasn't peaked and is in the sort of slump that happens to most young players. Federer lost to Ancic the year after beating Sampras at Wimbledon!
A bit of perspective is needed here. Y'all writing Zverev off aged 20. (except Meles.) I highly doubt Nishikori got written off aged 20 (he was already having injury problems then) and i don't see the likes of Chung getting written off either. Heck some people still believe Gulbis will come good!
Obviously this player-coach partnership didn't work. Now it's ended i think Zverevs results will improve, any player needs the right coach.
A bit of perspective is needed here. Y'all writing Zverev off aged 20. (except Meles.) I highly doubt Nishikori got written off aged 20 (he was already having injury problems then) and i don't see the likes of Chung getting written off either. Heck some people still believe Gulbis will come good!
Obviously this player-coach partnership didn't work. Now it's ended i think Zverevs results will improve, any player needs the right coach.
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
I doubt many people are writing off Zverev. I think many are just expecting him to drop slightly in the rankings.Zverev is still only 20, still figuring out how to get the most out of his talents, still hasn't peaked and is in the sort of slump that happens to most young players. Federer lost to Ancic the year after beating Sampras at Wimbledon!
A bit of perspective is needed here. Y'all writing Zverev off aged 20. (except Meles.) I highly doubt Nishikori got written off aged 20 (he was already having injury problems then) and i don't see the likes of Chung getting written off either. Heck some people still believe Gulbis will come good!
Obviously this player-coach partnership didn't work. Now it's ended i think Zverevs results will improve, any player needs the right coach.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
I’m not expecting him to drop off. Just disagreeing with the people solely putting blame on JCF and accepting no responsibility for Zverev. I’m sure Zverev will stick around the top 20.Zverev is still only 20, still figuring out how to get the most out of his talents, still hasn't peaked and is in the sort of slump that happens to most young players. Federer lost to Ancic the year after beating Sampras at Wimbledon!
A bit of perspective is needed here. Y'all writing Zverev off aged 20. (except Meles.) I highly doubt Nishikori got written off aged 20 (he was already having injury problems then) and i don't see the likes of Chung getting written off either. Heck some people still believe Gulbis will come good!
Obviously this player-coach partnership didn't work. Now it's ended i think Zverevs results will improve, any player needs the right coach.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Yes, but, but, Fed did beat Sampras. Which took him to a QF. Do you see a slam QF in Z's CV yet? Kyrgios earned it when he was 19. Chung got to a semi. And your last sentence "will improve" is way too affirmartive, you don't know that he will. It's a hope and even with his stinky silky attitude, I hope he will do well. As for Gulbis, don't see anybody wishing he will come good except Meles the Menace who desperately wants Gulbis to back up Meles' claim that he is better than Safin.Zverev is still only 20, still figuring out how to get the most out of his talents, still hasn't peaked and is in the sort of slump that happens to most young players. Federer lost to Ancic the year after beating Sampras at Wimbledon!
A bit of perspective is needed here. Y'all writing Zverev off aged 20. (except Meles.) I highly doubt Nishikori got written off aged 20 (he was already having injury problems then) and i don't see the likes of Chung getting written off either. Heck some people still believe Gulbis will come good!
Obviously this player-coach partnership didn't work. Now it's ended i think Zverevs results will improve, any player needs the right coach.
George Turner
Hall of Fame
In the short term a ranking dip is possible, with Rome points to defend. Zverev is a victim of his own success, winning 2 masters has raised expectations that in the short term have proved to be unrealistic.
I don't really blame Ferrero, he was just the wrong coach for Zverev. I had a job meeting two weeks ago, the person i met i didn't like their attitude at all and i walked out after five minutes. I later explained to them that i cannot work with this person. These things happen to everyone, you have to have people who are compatible with you.
You're putting too much focus on majors there when judging a players potential. Tomic reached a quarter final aged 17 and look what happened there!
The Gulbis hype machine got started when he got to a QF in 2008Having a run in a major is a sign of potential but Zverev still has great potential even though he hasn't had a good major run. In the next couple of years i would expect to see him having a proper impact in majors.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I can find a recent post of mine, where I showed your selective (actually completely opposite) approach to the tolerance towards setting a certain age as a benchmark for improvement/success.
It wasn't pretty at all, and if need be (i. e. If you continue to insist that you are doing this in a consistent manner), I will post it again.
EDIT: Post #92 in this thread
Last edited:
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
a) majors are what players are remembered for; b) so far Zverev has failed miserably at them; c) no one is saying Zverev will never do well at majors, but after his last 2 losses - Coric at the USO and Chung at the AO, who happen to be in the same age group and didn’t win 2 M1000s - it’s not outrageous to wonder when his breakthrough is going to happen or if he can’t handle the pressure.
This boils down to who do you believe? A major winner and guy who carried himself with class for his entire career or a brash 20 year old?
There's little doubt that Zverev does struggle with pressure. I remember he lost to Nadal in early 2016 after having match points, but barely won a point after Nadal saved Zverev's match point. The commentator at the time remarked that Zverev had a reputation for losing matches from winning positions. His last two Grand Slam losses have been indicative of a player struggling with pressure/expectation. At the USO Zverev's side of the draw had completely fallen away but he lost to Coric after seemingly being up 0-30 in almost every game Coric served. At the AO he completely imploded in the 5th against another contemporary in Chung after Chung won a tight 4th set. If he has the ascendancy in a match then the opponent fights back Zverev has a tendency to melt away.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Physically Chung is better developed than Zverev and that has little to do with motivation or resilience under pressure.
That is what won Chung the match in Australia.
They are also not the same age and that is huge at this stage of development.
That is what won Chung the match in Australia.
They are also not the same age and that is huge at this stage of development.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
You don’t even know how stupid you are do, do you? If you go and read my post from that Tomic thread I was responding to someone who said 22 was immature but 24 isn’t. I didn’t say that. Can’t you read? Here it is again for you, find the words ‘according to you’. Tennis addict doesn’t dictate what age is a grown up and neither do you.I can find a recent post of mine, where I showed your selective (actually completely opposite) approach to the tolerance towards setting a certain age as a benchmark for improvement/success.
It wasn't pretty at all, and if need be (i. e. If you continue to insist that you are doing this in a consistent manner), I will post it again.
EDIT: Post #92 in this thread
Also, love how suddenly 24 is the deciding factor for when he's a grown up and has to take responsibility. 22 is fine but 24 isn't according to you
Maybe if you got over your obsession with me you could actually try to post something that makes sense. These two topics are completely different anyway. My issue was with people solely blaming JCF for Zverev’s failures and not putting any blame on the actual player. You wouldn’t know though cause all you seem to do is stalk whatever I post and then take an opposing view. It’s really becoming quite disturbing.
Physically Chung is better developed than Zverev and that has little to do with motivation or resilience under pressure.
That is what won Chung the match in Australia.
Ably assisted by abject capitulation from Zverev.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Maybe, but it is always easy to be mentally strong when everything is in your favour.
As former heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey said "The champion is the man who gets up when everybody knows that he can't." It's in adversity you find out who has mental strength.
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
Agree. Tree trunk legs alone don’t win matches. If they did Berdych would be GOAT.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I quoted both instances to show that you object against other people setting the age as a factor of "maturity", yet allowing yourself the same privilege, by insinuating that people, who say a certain age to be still acceptable for the mistakes some players do, are wrong, thus implying that that at that age it is clearly too late for those players to do those mistakes.
In short, you deny the others the possibility to apply age as an indicator for maturity, but you yourself do it in regard to others' opinions (by saying that at this or that age the said players should be mature enough).
Clearly, if your contention is that age cannot be a deciding factor, then you should also stop quoting it as a reason for expectations or set clear rules as to how maturity and age are connected.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
That is a beautiful way of saying that those "everybody" do not know all that much.
However, miracles are just that: miracles.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Yes, but tree trunk legs versus lack of such, plus acclimatisation, plus further development etc win matches.
Also, Zverev did much better in that match than in their previous encounter.
Also Chung is not a nobody.
Yes, but tree trunk legs versus lack of such, plus acclimatisation, plus further development etc win matches.
Also, Zverev did much better in that match than in their previous encounter.
Also Chung is not a nobody.
There is a match that's useful for comparison. In 2017 Zverev lost in 5 to Nadal at the AO, losing the 5th 6-2 having lost the 4th 6-3. In 2018 he lost the 4th to Chung 6-3 then lost the 5th 6-0, winning only 5 points in the set, 3 of those points being aces. There's no question Nadal's a superior player to Chung, yet with a year more of physical development Zverev's 5th set performance was much worse against Chung than Nadal. That's almost certainly psychology not physiology.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Discussing a 5 set match against a very good player really limits the amount of speculation about the mental fragility of the losing player.
Really.
Discussing a 5 set match against a very good player really limits the amount of speculation about the mental fragility of the losing player.
Really.
I don't think it does. If you go in to a match as world number 4 against world number 50 who's a similar age to you, if the match goes to a 5th set you should at the very least compete. Zverev gave up....that's mental fragility.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
If he didn't compete successfully, the match wouldn't have gone to 5. That is the gist of my previous post, and competing successfully also means mental fortitude.
Also, people that deny that players go through phases of uncertainty during their matches obviously choose to ignore their own experience, as I am yet to hear about a player that didn't display that ( hell, the "mental rock" Nadal got bageled on clay).
At this point it is clear that ranking has little to do with anything here.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
You're putting too much focus on majors there when judging a players potential. Tomic reached a quarter final aged 17 and look what happened there!
Having a run in a major is a sign of potential but Zverev still has great potential even though he hasn't had a good major run. In the next couple of years i would expect to see him having a proper impact in majors.
I am not. I am only using his majors performance as a counterpoint to the Zverev hypetrain. That the performance so far belies the hype. Yes, he has potential and so does Dimitrov. And I think Dimitrov has a much better head on his shoulders so if HE has failed to make an impact at the majors, I or others are right to be cautious about Zverev.
If he didn't compete successfully, the match wouldn't have gone to 5. That is the gist of my previous post, and competing successfully also means mental fortitude.
Also, people that deny that players go through phases of uncertainty during their matches obviously choose to ignore their own experience, as I am yet to hear about a player that didn't display that ( hell, the "mental rock" Nadal got bageled on clay).
At this point it is clear that ranking has little to do with anything here.
Zverev did compete successfully...up until the point when the match was in the balance at 2 sets all, when he gave up. It threatens to become a feature of his career, but may not if he addresses it. I don't think he should pretend it didn't happen.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
That is pretty unsatisfactory reading of what transpired.
I must say that.
In the last set he won 5 points, 3 of them on aces. So he won 2 points in 26 when the ball was in play. Either his level can drop to alarmingly low levels or he stopped competing properly. I don't necessarily mean a Kyrgios/Tomic style tank where he let balls go by that were in easy reach, more that his state of mind prevented him playing to a professional level.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Actually, that he won so few points should show you how he was being grinded in the ground by Chung.
Indeed, there were a lot of unforced errors, and Zverev's frustration clearly showed that he does care.
My comment was pointed at the idea that Zverev somehow gave up in the 5th, when his frustration that he cannot hit through the surface with shots that would have been clear winners or at least a set up for successfully finishing the points has only been amplified by the fact that as the match went on he didn't even have that option, as he was tiring himself to the point that he cannot keep himself in the rallies.
Chung knew that and put his mind into grinding Zverev down, with the occasional burst of aggression to keep him honest.
The whole thing started with Zverev's physical condition being gradually brought down starting somewhere in the middle of the third set.
Actually, that he won so few points should show you how he was being grinded in the ground by Chung.
Indeed, there were a lot of unforced errors, and Zverev's frustration clearly showed that he does care.
My comment was pointed at the idea that Zverev somehow gave up in the 5th, when his frustration that he cannot hit through the surface with shots that would have been clear winners or at least a set up for successfully finishing the points has only been amplified by the fact that as the match went on he didn't even have that option, as he was tiring himself to the point that he cannot keep himself in the rallies.
Chung knew that and put his mind into grinding Zverev down, with the occasional burst of aggression to keep him honest.
The whole thing started with Zverev's physical condition being gradually brought down starting somewhere in the middle of the third set.
Problem for Zverev is that I read very similar analyses of Coric's win over him at the USO. Coric was (according to some on this site) Djokovic like in his ability to retrieve that day leaving Zverev playing against a wall he couldn't penetrate and was eventually worn down. Clearly his contemporaries reserve their best for Zverev because they've generally been less formidable against other opponents.
Alba Barragan
Professional
In which part of my post did I blame Ferrero solely for the failed partnership with Zverev? Or for all the bad results? If you actually read my post you will (maybe) realize I made a point about both of them being good players (JCF in the past), compromised and responsible people, and JCF being a good coach. I'm not looking for someone to blame or someone to defend, I think they simply didn't work out together. People in this forum are the ones who (in all their right) dislike Zverev, which is okay, but most of them are using this split as an excuse to bash him even further, forgetting JCF also played a role in the whole thing, which I pointed out. I wasn't going after JCF, but the objectivity of some users in this forum.
Go ahead, spam me. I'm pretty sure more losses are about to come. Just as there were before JCF was part of Z's team.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I have a feeling that your last statement is a bit of a tongue in cheek.
Let's not forget who Chung beat after his match with Zverev.
Keizer
Hall of Fame
Amen, he's definitely ahead of the curve with his M1000 wins, but he's a long way from a slam. I thought the Chung fifth set bagel in the AO would knock some sense into him, but I guess I was wrong.
I have a feeling that your last statement is a bit of a tongue in cheek.
Let's not forget who Chung beat after his match with Zverev.
I haven't forgotten who Chung beat, but his opponent that day did undergo surgery after the match so it's hard to get a line on the strength of it. I suspect Chung was playing to the level of a fringe top 10 player at the AO. If that's the case it also tells us where Zverev is at the moment, ranked 5 but playing more like 20. Not bad for a 20yo but worse than he was playing in late 2016.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Gotta give credit where credit is due.
Djokovic walzed through his draw with the loss of one set to Monfils. It was a hard fought win for Chung and not a walk in the park as you would expect against a player that "got a surgery after that".
Also top 20 is really pushing it.
Which players are playing better than Zverev right now in your opinion?
I think Federer, Nadal, Cilic, Del Potro and Chung do.
Who else?
Gotta give credit where credit is due.
Djokovic walzed through his draw with the loss of one set to Monfils. It was a hard fought win for Chung and not a walk in the park as you would expect against a player that "got a surgery after that".
Also top 20 is really pushing it.
Which players are playing better than Zverev right now in your opinion?
I think Federer, Nadal, Cilic, Del Potro and Chung do.
Who else?
It's hard to say because he's only played 3 tournaments this year without getting to a final. Seppi beat him 2 weeks ago...so he played better than him that day. Zvervev beat Deminaur in a cliffhangher in Davis Cup so Zvervev was marginally better than Deminaur that day. We find out more about where they're all at in the next fortnight.
clayqueen
Talk Tennis Guru
I hope it's not pride before a fall with Sasha. They haven't done him any favours by proclaiming him the future #1 before he actually won anything and it's gone to his head. He is no child prodigy of the likes of Nadal, Agassi, Sampras or Becker. Beating top players once or twice, especially when they are not at their best doesn't make you a great player.
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, Nadal shouldn't have hyped him up as a possible #1 player.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Wow, rare is the day that I agree with you but today's a beautiful day or must be because I went for a slam dunk on the courts and nailed it and my smash is about a thousand times worse than Djokovic's. Jokes apart, yes, the premature hype. It skewed Bouchard and it could skew Zverev too. He hasn't earned it in a big bout yet. Like Fed against Sampras, Safin/Hewitt against Sampras, Nadal/Djokovic against Federer, etc.
BHServe
Semi-Pro
His drop off occurred right after that Win over Fed in Canada. Soon after that he lost to Coric in the USO and has done little since.
I'm one of the few here who defends the Zedbot so i say it's a slump and he's a future major winner
One thing I have wondered every now and then is how Federer got his act completely together and became very stable and able to handle his temper in a way that he very rarely shows negative emotions on court. I think Fed’s case is pretty much exception to the rule, and more often than not if you are a brat and whiner early it is in your temper and it’s very hard to change.
Zverev by all means is allowed to prove me wrong, but watching his act, tantrums and general attitude I’m not holding my breath for that to happen.
