Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
sorry thought you were indicating that only breaking ITF rules should be considered cheating. There’s a whole lot in the code thats Pretty much considered “rules”.
Science says grunting makes your tennis better. Do you do it?
- Thread starter HunterST
- Start date
sorry thought you were indicating that only breaking ITF rules should be considered cheating. There’s a whole lot in the code thats Pretty much considered “rules”.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
No, he even does it during practice [vs Thiem in a recent vid]. "Bweh!"
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
I grunt very occasionally on 1st serves. I almost inaudibly exhale right before I really go for it on backhands. If an opponent grunts even when not exerting himself, say 2nd weak serve, drop shots, lobs, regular routine groundstrokes, for every single shot, I make sure I grunt too, but only when I drop shot and I grunt really loudly.
weelie
Professional
I do grunt when I am very tired. When serving or hitting winners seem to require the extra effort. I don't know if it is conscious or not, but I guess when tired not much is really all that conscious.
Also, when I serve platform (usually don't), I grunt. But I serve my usual pinpoint way grunt-less. Less effort needed, again.
Also, when I serve platform (usually don't), I grunt. But I serve my usual pinpoint way grunt-less. Less effort needed, again.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
"The King wanted to put all undesireable people on an island. But his list kept growing longer and longer. Finally, he simply built a moat around the castle."
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Sabalenka, Sharapova, Muguruza = shriekers
Azarenka & Halep = grunters
Cibulkova = karate [hi-yah!]
Barty = slience
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Left out Serena. She has to be amongst the most obnoxious annoying loudest grunters.
She likely does not do it in practice so it is just intimidation.
Just try to listen to this for even 30 seconds!
Vinci OTOH is dead silent.
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S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I'd rank her below SSM in annoyance. It's the high pitch of the trio that grates on my ears.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
QRaul's issue with Serena is not the grunting...
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I do it on serve but it's more like an exhale than a grunt. And sometimes when I lunge for a ball at the extreme end of my range.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
OP claims there is scientific evidence for grunting. Do you buy this? How to explain great players like Fed and Vinci that never grunt.
Was WTA shrieking prevalent in the 1970s? This seems like a recent phenomenon.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes. I've seen it in tennis, volleyball, martial arts, etc. I've also seen the effects of holding one's breath.
The article only concluded evidence exists for the benefit of grunting. It didn't say that if you don't grunt, you aren't any good. Nor do we know how good Fed and Vinci would have been if they did grunt [maybe they'd have been worse].
I could claim that hitting TS would improve your game but if you only know how to slice, maybe it would make things worse for such a long time that you wouldn't be willing to change. That doesn't mean TS doesn't work.
I don't recall it. When I first heard Sharapova, I thought "That's gotta be illegal!".
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Do not see the difference, in the context of tennis, between grunting and quietly EXHALING.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Perhaps not high-pitch shrieking but grunting, mostly moderate level grunting, was around in the 1970s. According to tennis historian, Bud Collins, grunting came to high-level tennis around the late 1950s / early 1960s. Victoria Palmer, a contemporary of Billie Jean King, may have been the first if these grunters.
Jimmy Connors, who played pro tennis from the mid/late 1960s to the early 90s was a prolific grunter. Fairly loud. I recall pro & amateur players grunting in the 1970s but JC was probably the loudest of that era.
High dB grunting (and shrieking) began to become a widespread problem with the generation after JC. In the late 80s, high-dB grunter, Monica Seles hit the scene. Her grunting was often measured over 90 dB. Andre Agassi, another player who started in the 1980s was also fairly loud.
Quite a lot of the loud grunters and shriekers came out of Nick B's Academy in the 80s & 90s. Nick claimed that they did not teach nor encourage the high-dB grunting at their academy. Maybe, maybe not. But it is very clear that they did not discourage the practice. When developing junior players at this & and other academies see the elite players there grunting and shrieking, they are often inclined to do the same.
Some of the high-dB players who trained at Nick's academy includes Seles, Agassi, Latched de Brito (109 dB), Sharapova and the Williams sisters.
Victoria Heinicke, tennis' first grunter. Plus: Notes on the evolution of grunting.
Novak Djokovic's four-set win over Rafael Nadal in Monday's U.S. Open final was brutal, lengthy, and loud. As Nadal strained to match Djokovic's power ...
www.slate.com
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Television should adjust the audio to lower the grunting. Have heard many fans say that they cannot bare to watch on TV due to the grunting.
Who could possibly bear to hear Serena shrieking for two hours? It is also quite suspicious that Serena does not do the loud grunting when chasing balls in practice.
Not a single loud grunt to be found here.
Along with Richey, retired greats Evert and Navratilova have both spoken out about the game's rising noise level, with the latter saying that grunting "is cheating, pure and simple."
It's no coincidence that Navratilova was the one to call out Seles: By 1992, she was 35 years old, a relic from a more peaceful age.
Serena Williams, by contrast, grew up idolizing Seles. "I loved her game. I loved her grunt," Williams told ESPN.com's Darren Rovell in 2005. "So my grunt is kind of like hers a little bit, where it's like a double-grunt."
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Wurm
Professional
I played a guy in his 60s once who kept grunting despite his half-arsed pace shots. I spent most of my time somewhere between baffled and giggling... and a bit too distracted by the comical nature of it all.
Other than that I've not come across anyone who habitually grunts and have come across plenty who can hit every bit as hard, at least with their forehands, as the pros do (merely hitting as hard as the average pro is not *that* difficult when the ball is in the strike zone). One player I know will let out the occasional grunt when contorting himself for one of the absurd retrieving shots he pulls off but that's more an Andy Murray style "oh god, why am I doing this to myself?" noise.
Aside from the fact that I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself when I'm on court I find the whole business unsavoury.
Other than that I've not come across anyone who habitually grunts and have come across plenty who can hit every bit as hard, at least with their forehands, as the pros do (merely hitting as hard as the average pro is not *that* difficult when the ball is in the strike zone). One player I know will let out the occasional grunt when contorting himself for one of the absurd retrieving shots he pulls off but that's more an Andy Murray style "oh god, why am I doing this to myself?" noise.
Aside from the fact that I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself when I'm on court I find the whole business unsavoury.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
In real matches it is when he goes for winners/big shots/aggressive shots even if he doesnt always get a clean winner, on more neutral rally balls he is slient as a church mouse. So you are incorrect.
Often practice has little to do with how a player plays a match. Sampras was famous for phoning it in on practice time and Courier hated practicing with him for this reason.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
TV broadcasts might actually be doing the opposite... hot miking (or enhanced audio) to pick up courts sounds like ball impacts (on the court & off the rackets), footwork sounds, chair umpire & linespersons calls, etc.Television should adjust the audio to lower the grunting. Have heard many fans say that they cannot bare to watch on TV due to the grunting.
Who could possibly bear to hear Serena shrieking for two hours? It is also quite suspicious that Serena does not do the loud grunting when chasing balls in practice.
Not a single loud grunt to be found here.
3 decades ago, I was watching Monica Seles matches on TV with the sound off. Don't recall Connors or Agassi ever being as loud as Seles.
Serena's auditory behavior is not really all that suspicious. I've seen Sharapova, Larcher de Brito (the ultimate scream Queen) and others grunters or shriekers start off pretty quiet in practice. But after 1/2 hour or so of practice, they start making noise on their shots. During a match, I've seen Maria fairly quiet for the first set or so. But, as the match wears on, she starts vocalizing her shot exhalations.
Azarenka is one of the few players I've seen grunting from the very start of practice (and matches). From any players, the noise doesn't start until they've been exerting themselves for a while. Or, with some, the noises starts as they start to feel the pressure of a match. Doesn't seem all that suspicious at all. It's just a habit, a pattern, they've developed from their Junior years.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Yes, but it may be possible to filter the specific frequencies of the grunting and make it less loud and annoying to the television viewers, while still picking up the ball and racquet sounds.
Think this is commonly done with music where the vocals are compressed to bring down the parts where the singer gets louder.
If the guy is grunting at contact then the grunt can be used as a great cue to split step.
Heinicke "was probably the loudest." Still, Richey says "it wasn't anything you would complain about," explaining that her contemporary's decibel level doesn't compare to today's piercing shrieks. In fact, she found her opponent's grunting beneficial. "You know she's doing it at the moment of contact with the ball," Richey says. "In a sense, it helps your timing."
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Don't know if it would be as simple as a notch filter or a band pass filter. Different players would undoubtedly produce sounds in different parts of the spectrum. Or the vocalizations from one specific player might vary or might be comprised of a wide range of frequencies. The "attack" portion of a vocalization might have a much higher frequency content than the sustain part of that grunt
If a player starting their grunt / shriek just prior to contact, that might be a better SS cue. If the sound does not happen until contact or just after contact, the cue would be too late for a SS. My preference is to be at the top of the SS hop at contact. So the SS is actually initiated shortly before that.
If a loud grunt or shriek is happening right at contact, this would likely obscure the sound of the opponent's contact. A good deal of important auditory information about the contact could be buried / hidden by a simultaneous grunt / shriek.
junior74
Bionic Poster
Most absurde situation.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Azarenka has an interesting pattern on her vocalizations. On most shots she appears to make a moderate "inhale" sound when the ball bounces and a louder "exhale" sound after she has commenced her forward swing.
I have taught a much quieter version of this to students. "Ah" on the inhale and "Ha" on the exhale. Many players find a quieter variation like this will work quite well for them.
I have taught a much quieter version of this to students. "Ah" on the inhale and "Ha" on the exhale. Many players find a quieter variation like this will work quite well for them.
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sredna42
Hall of Fame
Stopped reading at the invocation of "muh science"
If it makes players better, then why do they stop doing it when truly under the pump
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Fair enough; your original post made no distinction between matches and practice.
In the first rally alone, Rublev hit 5 shots and grunted on 3 of them. None of them were winners or big shots although you could argue they were aggressive. Then again, Rublev is an aggressive player so he's going to hit more aggressive shots. If you classify those 3 as aggressive, then why not the return also where he was silent?
2nd rally: 5 shots, 5 grunts. I would classify all of them except the last as closer to neutral than winner/big/aggressive.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
We disagree which is good.
FiddlerDog
Hall of Fame
I found myself grunting naturally as I became a stronger player. I only do it on certain shots, most likely if awkward shot.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Look up the meaning of "acceptable".
Of course anything can get out of hand, grunting is no exception, but I find the unacceptable level is rather rare and specific to individual, situation. Much like pro level. Hence, organizers cannot enforce it across the board, ie because it's fine in 95% of the time!
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Acceptable is in the eye [or ear, as it were] of the beholder.
When I shared my match video vs Max with a friend, his immediately reply was not about the play but the loud crowd on the adjacent court, which I barely noticed at the time I was playing. Clearly to him, their noise was unacceptable.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I already take into account of the fact that it is arbitrary to individuals.
But for all intents and purposes -- the general understanding of "acceptable" so we all know enough to function in society -- it's understood that the noise was acceptable to Max if he chose to play through it. He did accept it and move on to play. If he chose NOT to go thru with the play then you can say it was unacceptable. Third-grade logics here.
Likewise, Chaez played "just fine" through the grunts but said it was unacceptable to him. Hmm... Convoluted logics.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
There is a difference between grunting that is annoying and grunting that is a hindrance. Don't like either but only one will affect my play. If I have a choice I will not choose to play with either player.
And it does largely come down to frequency, pitch, duration and decibel level of the grunting behavior. A low volume, infrequent, short low pitched grunt isn't going to bother most people. A loud high pitched shriek that extends well past the follow through is a hindrance and should be called out as such.
And until it's removed from the code, no one should be encouraged to grunt while playing even if they feel it makes them play better.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I already take into account of the fact that it is arbitrary to individuals.
But for all intents and purposes -- the general understanding of "acceptable" so we all know enough to function in society -- it's understood that the noise was acceptable to Max if he chose to play through it. He did accept it and move on to play. If he chose NOT to go thru with the play then you can say it was unacceptable. Third-grade logics here.
Likewise, Chaez played "just fine" through the grunts but said it was unacceptable to him. Hmm... Convoluted logics.
My point was that it was acceptable to me the player but not to my friend the watcher which means just having a definition of acceptable isn't enough since the standard varies.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
The sound of speed: How grunting affects opponents’ anticipation in tennis
Grunting in tennis is a widespread phenomenon and whether it influences opponents’ predictions of ball trajectory—and if so, why—is subject of ongoing debate. Two alternative hypotheses have been proposed to explain why grunting may impede opponents’ predictions, referred to as the distraction...
journals.plos.org
Grunting in tennis is a widespread phenomenon and whether it influences opponents’ predictions of ball trajectory—and if so, why—is subject of ongoing debate. Two alternative hypotheses have been proposed to explain why grunting may impede opponents’ predictions, referred to as the distraction...
journals.plos.org
The sound of speed: How grunting affects opponents’ anticipation in tennis
- Florian Müller ,
- Lars Jauernig,
- Rouwen Cañal-Bruland
[The paper specifically mentions "These findings resonate with complaints from tennis professional Martina Navratilova that “the grunting prevented her from hearing [emphasis added] the ball”]
Abstract
Grunting in tennis is a widespread phenomenon and whether it influences opponents’ predictions of ball trajectory—and if so, why—is subject of ongoing debate. Two alternative hypotheses have been proposed to explain why grunting may impede opponents’ predictions, referred to as the distraction account (i.e., grunts capture attentional resources necessary for anticipation) and the multisensory integration account (i.e., auditory information from the grunt systematically influences ball trajectory prediction typically assumed to rely on visual information). To put these competing hypotheses to test, in the current study we presented tennis players with a series of temporally occluded video clips of tennis rallies featuring experimentally amplified, attenuated, or muted grunting sounds. Participants were asked to predict the ball landing position. Results indicated that higher grunt intensities yielded judgments of longer ball trajectories whereas radial prediction errors were not affected. These results are clearly at odds with the distraction account of grunting, predicting increased prediction errors after higher intensity grunts. In contrast, our findings provide strong support for the multisensory integration account by demonstrating that grunt intensity systematically influences judgments of ball trajectory.
Bagumbawalla
Talk Tennis Guru
I grunted at a scientist for several hours yesterday.
He locked me out and told ne to go home.
I don't think it helped.
He locked me out and told ne to go home.
I don't think it helped.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
Silent bad tennis players in the next court over is unacceptable to me. What can be done about that?
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