S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
"The King wanted to put all undesireable people on an island. But his list kept growing longer and longer. Finally, he simply built a moat around the castle."
Science says grunting makes your tennis better. Do you do it?
- Thread starter HunterST
- Start date
"The King wanted to put all undesireable people on an island. But his list kept growing longer and longer. Finally, he simply built a moat around the castle."
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Sabalenka, Sharapova, Muguruza = shriekers
Azarenka & Halep = grunters
Cibulkova = karate [hi-yah!]
Barty = slience
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Left out Serena. She has to be amongst the most obnoxious annoying loudest grunters.
She likely does not do it in practice so it is just intimidation.
Just try to listen to this for even 30 seconds!
Vinci OTOH is dead silent.
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S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I'd rank her below SSM in annoyance. It's the high pitch of the trio that grates on my ears.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I do it on serve but it's more like an exhale than a grunt. And sometimes when I lunge for a ball at the extreme end of my range.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
OP claims there is scientific evidence for grunting. Do you buy this? How to explain great players like Fed and Vinci that never grunt.
Was WTA shrieking prevalent in the 1970s? This seems like a recent phenomenon.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes. I've seen it in tennis, volleyball, martial arts, etc. I've also seen the effects of holding one's breath.
The article only concluded evidence exists for the benefit of grunting. It didn't say that if you don't grunt, you aren't any good. Nor do we know how good Fed and Vinci would have been if they did grunt [maybe they'd have been worse].
I could claim that hitting TS would improve your game but if you only know how to slice, maybe it would make things worse for such a long time that you wouldn't be willing to change. That doesn't mean TS doesn't work.
I don't recall it. When I first heard Sharapova, I thought "That's gotta be illegal!".
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Do not see the difference, in the context of tennis, between grunting and quietly EXHALING.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Perhaps not high-pitch shrieking but grunting, mostly moderate level grunting, was around in the 1970s. According to tennis historian, Bud Collins, grunting came to high-level tennis around the late 1950s / early 1960s. Victoria Palmer, a contemporary of Billie Jean King, may have been the first if these grunters.
Jimmy Connors, who played pro tennis from the mid/late 1960s to the early 90s was a prolific grunter. Fairly loud. I recall pro & amateur players grunting in the 1970s but JC was probably the loudest of that era.
High dB grunting (and shrieking) began to become a widespread problem with the generation after JC. In the late 80s, high-dB grunter, Monica Seles hit the scene. Her grunting was often measured over 90 dB. Andre Agassi, another player who started in the 1980s was also fairly loud.
Quite a lot of the loud grunters and shriekers came out of Nick B's Academy in the 80s & 90s. Nick claimed that they did not teach nor encourage the high-dB grunting at their academy. Maybe, maybe not. But it is very clear that they did not discourage the practice. When developing junior players at this & and other academies see the elite players there grunting and shrieking, they are often inclined to do the same.
Some of the high-dB players who trained at Nick's academy includes Seles, Agassi, Latched de Brito (109 dB), Sharapova and the Williams sisters.
Victoria Heinicke, tennis' first grunter. Plus: Notes on the evolution of grunting.
Novak Djokovic's four-set win over Rafael Nadal in Monday's U.S. Open final was brutal, lengthy, and loud. As Nadal strained to match Djokovic's power ...
www.slate.com
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Television should adjust the audio to lower the grunting. Have heard many fans say that they cannot bare to watch on TV due to the grunting.
Who could possibly bear to hear Serena shrieking for two hours? It is also quite suspicious that Serena does not do the loud grunting when chasing balls in practice.
Not a single loud grunt to be found here.
Along with Richey, retired greats Evert and Navratilova have both spoken out about the game's rising noise level, with the latter saying that grunting "is cheating, pure and simple."
It's no coincidence that Navratilova was the one to call out Seles: By 1992, she was 35 years old, a relic from a more peaceful age.
Serena Williams, by contrast, grew up idolizing Seles. "I loved her game. I loved her grunt," Williams told ESPN.com's Darren Rovell in 2005. "So my grunt is kind of like hers a little bit, where it's like a double-grunt."
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Wurm
Professional
I played a guy in his 60s once who kept grunting despite his half-arsed pace shots. I spent most of my time somewhere between baffled and giggling... and a bit too distracted by the comical nature of it all.
Other than that I've not come across anyone who habitually grunts and have come across plenty who can hit every bit as hard, at least with their forehands, as the pros do (merely hitting as hard as the average pro is not *that* difficult when the ball is in the strike zone). One player I know will let out the occasional grunt when contorting himself for one of the absurd retrieving shots he pulls off but that's more an Andy Murray style "oh god, why am I doing this to myself?" noise.
Aside from the fact that I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself when I'm on court I find the whole business unsavoury.
Other than that I've not come across anyone who habitually grunts and have come across plenty who can hit every bit as hard, at least with their forehands, as the pros do (merely hitting as hard as the average pro is not *that* difficult when the ball is in the strike zone). One player I know will let out the occasional grunt when contorting himself for one of the absurd retrieving shots he pulls off but that's more an Andy Murray style "oh god, why am I doing this to myself?" noise.
Aside from the fact that I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself when I'm on court I find the whole business unsavoury.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
In real matches it is when he goes for winners/big shots/aggressive shots even if he doesnt always get a clean winner, on more neutral rally balls he is slient as a church mouse. So you are incorrect.
Often practice has little to do with how a player plays a match. Sampras was famous for phoning it in on practice time and Courier hated practicing with him for this reason.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
TV broadcasts might actually be doing the opposite... hot miking (or enhanced audio) to pick up courts sounds like ball impacts (on the court & off the rackets), footwork sounds, chair umpire & linespersons calls, etc.Television should adjust the audio to lower the grunting. Have heard many fans say that they cannot bare to watch on TV due to the grunting.
Who could possibly bear to hear Serena shrieking for two hours? It is also quite suspicious that Serena does not do the loud grunting when chasing balls in practice.
Not a single loud grunt to be found here.
3 decades ago, I was watching Monica Seles matches on TV with the sound off. Don't recall Connors or Agassi ever being as loud as Seles.
Serena's auditory behavior is not really all that suspicious. I've seen Sharapova, Larcher de Brito (the ultimate scream Queen) and others grunters or shriekers start off pretty quiet in practice. But after 1/2 hour or so of practice, they start making noise on their shots. During a match, I've seen Maria fairly quiet for the first set or so. But, as the match wears on, she starts vocalizing her shot exhalations.
Azarenka is one of the few players I've seen grunting from the very start of practice (and matches). From any players, the noise doesn't start until they've been exerting themselves for a while. Or, with some, the noises starts as they start to feel the pressure of a match. Doesn't seem all that suspicious at all. It's just a habit, a pattern, they've developed from their Junior years.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Yes, but it may be possible to filter the specific frequencies of the grunting and make it less loud and annoying to the television viewers, while still picking up the ball and racquet sounds.
Think this is commonly done with music where the vocals are compressed to bring down the parts where the singer gets louder.
If the guy is grunting at contact then the grunt can be used as a great cue to split step.
Heinicke "was probably the loudest." Still, Richey says "it wasn't anything you would complain about," explaining that her contemporary's decibel level doesn't compare to today's piercing shrieks. In fact, she found her opponent's grunting beneficial. "You know she's doing it at the moment of contact with the ball," Richey says. "In a sense, it helps your timing."
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Don't know if it would be as simple as a notch filter or a band pass filter. Different players would undoubtedly produce sounds in different parts of the spectrum. Or the vocalizations from one specific player might vary or might be comprised of a wide range of frequencies. The "attack" portion of a vocalization might have a much higher frequency content than the sustain part of that grunt
If a player starting their grunt / shriek just prior to contact, that might be a better SS cue. If the sound does not happen until contact or just after contact, the cue would be too late for a SS. My preference is to be at the top of the SS hop at contact. So the SS is actually initiated shortly before that.
If a loud grunt or shriek is happening right at contact, this would likely obscure the sound of the opponent's contact. A good deal of important auditory information about the contact could be buried / hidden by a simultaneous grunt / shriek.
junior74
Bionic Poster
Most absurde situation.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Azarenka has an interesting pattern on her vocalizations. On most shots she appears to make a moderate "inhale" sound when the ball bounces and a louder "exhale" sound after she has commenced her forward swing.
I have taught a much quieter version of this to students. "Ah" on the inhale and "Ha" on the exhale. Many players find a quieter variation like this will work quite well for them.
I have taught a much quieter version of this to students. "Ah" on the inhale and "Ha" on the exhale. Many players find a quieter variation like this will work quite well for them.
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sredna42
Hall of Fame
Stopped reading at the invocation of "muh science"
If it makes players better, then why do they stop doing it when truly under the pump
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Fair enough; your original post made no distinction between matches and practice.
In the first rally alone, Rublev hit 5 shots and grunted on 3 of them. None of them were winners or big shots although you could argue they were aggressive. Then again, Rublev is an aggressive player so he's going to hit more aggressive shots. If you classify those 3 as aggressive, then why not the return also where he was silent?
2nd rally: 5 shots, 5 grunts. I would classify all of them except the last as closer to neutral than winner/big/aggressive.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
We disagree which is good.
FiddlerDog
Hall of Fame
I found myself grunting naturally as I became a stronger player. I only do it on certain shots, most likely if awkward shot.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Look up the meaning of "acceptable".
Of course anything can get out of hand, grunting is no exception, but I find the unacceptable level is rather rare and specific to individual, situation. Much like pro level. Hence, organizers cannot enforce it across the board, ie because it's fine in 95% of the time!
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Acceptable is in the eye [or ear, as it were] of the beholder.
When I shared my match video vs Max with a friend, his immediately reply was not about the play but the loud crowd on the adjacent court, which I barely noticed at the time I was playing. Clearly to him, their noise was unacceptable.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I already take into account of the fact that it is arbitrary to individuals.
But for all intents and purposes -- the general understanding of "acceptable" so we all know enough to function in society -- it's understood that the noise was acceptable to Max if he chose to play through it. He did accept it and move on to play. If he chose NOT to go thru with the play then you can say it was unacceptable. Third-grade logics here.
Likewise, Chaez played "just fine" through the grunts but said it was unacceptable to him. Hmm... Convoluted logics.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
There is a difference between grunting that is annoying and grunting that is a hindrance. Don't like either but only one will affect my play. If I have a choice I will not choose to play with either player.
And it does largely come down to frequency, pitch, duration and decibel level of the grunting behavior. A low volume, infrequent, short low pitched grunt isn't going to bother most people. A loud high pitched shriek that extends well past the follow through is a hindrance and should be called out as such.
And until it's removed from the code, no one should be encouraged to grunt while playing even if they feel it makes them play better.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I already take into account of the fact that it is arbitrary to individuals.
But for all intents and purposes -- the general understanding of "acceptable" so we all know enough to function in society -- it's understood that the noise was acceptable to Max if he chose to play through it. He did accept it and move on to play. If he chose NOT to go thru with the play then you can say it was unacceptable. Third-grade logics here.
Likewise, Chaez played "just fine" through the grunts but said it was unacceptable to him. Hmm... Convoluted logics.
My point was that it was acceptable to me the player but not to my friend the watcher which means just having a definition of acceptable isn't enough since the standard varies.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
The sound of speed: How grunting affects opponents’ anticipation in tennis
Grunting in tennis is a widespread phenomenon and whether it influences opponents’ predictions of ball trajectory—and if so, why—is subject of ongoing debate. Two alternative hypotheses have been proposed to explain why grunting may impede opponents’ predictions, referred to as the distraction...
journals.plos.org
Grunting in tennis is a widespread phenomenon and whether it influences opponents’ predictions of ball trajectory—and if so, why—is subject of ongoing debate. Two alternative hypotheses have been proposed to explain why grunting may impede opponents’ predictions, referred to as the distraction...
journals.plos.org
The sound of speed: How grunting affects opponents’ anticipation in tennis
- Florian Müller ,
- Lars Jauernig,
- Rouwen Cañal-Bruland
[The paper specifically mentions "These findings resonate with complaints from tennis professional Martina Navratilova that “the grunting prevented her from hearing [emphasis added] the ball”]
Abstract
Grunting in tennis is a widespread phenomenon and whether it influences opponents’ predictions of ball trajectory—and if so, why—is subject of ongoing debate. Two alternative hypotheses have been proposed to explain why grunting may impede opponents’ predictions, referred to as the distraction account (i.e., grunts capture attentional resources necessary for anticipation) and the multisensory integration account (i.e., auditory information from the grunt systematically influences ball trajectory prediction typically assumed to rely on visual information). To put these competing hypotheses to test, in the current study we presented tennis players with a series of temporally occluded video clips of tennis rallies featuring experimentally amplified, attenuated, or muted grunting sounds. Participants were asked to predict the ball landing position. Results indicated that higher grunt intensities yielded judgments of longer ball trajectories whereas radial prediction errors were not affected. These results are clearly at odds with the distraction account of grunting, predicting increased prediction errors after higher intensity grunts. In contrast, our findings provide strong support for the multisensory integration account by demonstrating that grunt intensity systematically influences judgments of ball trajectory.
Bagumbawalla
Talk Tennis Guru
I grunted at a scientist for several hours yesterday.
He locked me out and told ne to go home.
I don't think it helped.
He locked me out and told ne to go home.
I don't think it helped.
I don't watch a lot of sports, but it's difficult to imagine golf or basketball or table tennis or anything else in life really, where somebody raises their exertion level ever so slightly and lets out a loud grunt or even worse, the prolonged, whining, oscillating exhale where they're engaging their vocal cords almost the entire time.
I didn't watch that often but I do remember one instance of Serena Williams returning a drop shot, basically screaming from the baseline, almost all the way to the net at Wimbledon, I believe. Even the commentators were asking if anybody was going to do anything but it's basically been okayed. If you're not screaming an expletive when your opponent is serving or returning the ball, then it seems to okay. Every once in awhile they talk about enforcing the rules. They did leave it open to interpretation, maybe some folks do have some odd physical condition but I don't think all these random people can't control their vocal cords when they exhale, like all mammals do, even under duress. It's mostly not enforced because they think it makes it more engaging on television. Most people that do it, it is at least somewhat random. They of course do everything that they have to do to return the ball every time. Sometimes they get caught up in the moment and actual focus and strike the ball without grunting or whining, like they forgot to do it.
It's one thing when your center Court at a large facility and you're somewhat isolated and your single opponent isn't protesting. I help out at the local Junior college with eight courts and I can't imagine what it would be like if everyone was doing this. We've been fairly lucky and there's only been one time a guy, not from the college, was playing on a court that was doing it and it was distracting. It was almost every hit and it was the long, oscillating, whiny exhales kind.
There's a new guy that's trying to join the team that's doing it. The head coach asked him about it and he says nobody taught him to do it. He just naturally does it. But like most it's very inconsistent and very distracting when you're on the next court over trying to discuss stuff with the other students. I just have a hard time believing it's not intentional when anyone does it and don't believe it's fair to everyone playing on all the courts that are trying to discuss points, call the ball in or out, get ready to serve or call the score etc.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
I understand your point because he is quieter than most, but it is not nothing. He does grunt on all serves, and on a fair amount of topspin forehands. The footage on TV isn't reflective of the noise he does make, and everyone should emulate his level of exhaling/grunting imo, which is just the right amount to aid performance but not upset the opponent. From the other end you wouldn't or shouldn't notice and it is certainly not an issue for nearby courts.
To my mind the takeaway is that even Fed grunts on every serve so that is OK. Sabalenka on the other hand has a major issue, but because no-one is willing to do anything about THAT, you will always see players on the tour replicating it. When your grunt is still audible as the opponent is hitting the ball, there is absolutely no way that aspect (length of the grunt) wasn't trained. By whom or when, I have no clue.
Then you are in accordance with one of the greatest players ever!
I do miss watching him play. I remember one of the times (I think) he played Djokovic and and I think it was the serve that he aced him on and Djokovic got them to do it over because he said he saw something moving in the stands. Isn't that kind of your job, to remain focused?
He is grunting a little in the video but I still don't think you need to, to exhale. But the video also sounds like the mic's right on him. I can hear every footfall and his regular breathing.
I would agree that it's a learned, taught, mimicked behavior. They don't stop folks from doing it and then you end up with people being crazy loud and drawn out. My favorite is when they do it before they strike the ball, even in part of the backswing and then something happens and they don't need to strike the ball but they've already started there prolonged grunt.
If we accept the exhaling on every stroke or certain strokes is extremely important. I believe it's a timing, sync, flow issue. You're not holding your breath like deadlifters trying to protect their spine and keep their core rigid. It's not physically changing how you swing your arm, twist your body and in the end, strike the ball.
Breathing is totally natural and required, but there's also a very good reasons that animals can do it without engaging their vocal cords. There's all kinds of sports and physical activities where breathing is important and they don't make big loud grunts every time they exert themselves a little or do the long oscillating whining exhale.
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Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
Do the rules let them use noise cancelling earbuds now that coaching is allowed? Certainly players could argue the grunting is ruining their game
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Multiple complaints have been made in the past and dismissed. So now we know where we all stand. Scream as loud as you want and point to the best woman player as your mentor!
ProStaffFanatic
Semi-Pro
I grunt apparently. Didn't even really realize I did until someone filmed me and watched it later. 
Not that loud, luckily, but not really quiet either... Nobody every complained about it though, so I guess I'm within reasonable levels.
I'm so in the zone while playing, I tend to see and hear nothing but the ball and my opponent.
Not that loud, luckily, but not really quiet either... Nobody every complained about it though, so I guess I'm within reasonable levels.
I'm so in the zone while playing, I tend to see and hear nothing but the ball and my opponent.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Yes I agree, that's why I think he has the right mix. I don't really grunt on serves, but after seeing this I'm going to work on it (just a small noise).
I exhale on serves and groundstrokes at contact and it may get loud enough to be a low grunt. It isn't too loud and over quickly. I think it helps and I don't plan to change it. I am surprised that rule 37 of the code says grunting is not allowed. Many of my opponents do it too and I don't have a problem as long as it isn't super loud and it's over before I am playing my shot. But, the rule says only an official can call a hindrance so an opponent could only ask to tone it down which I would accommodate within reason. Reason being I am still going to exhale/grunt a low volume and it will be over before the ball is played by opponent.
The rules the rules and if nobody stops them, folks get to do it.
I just don't see how engaging your vocal cords when exhaling helps or changes anything about your shot. I'm more than happy to be wrong but I just don't see it. I think it definitely helps to focus on the ball, focus on your steps to the ball, your stroke, your breathing, the timing of all of it can help you strike the ball more consistently.
Some people like to engage their vocal chords when stretching or yawning or even burping but its pretty easy not to.
They have talked about more stringent enforcement over the years a few times but again, I think some people feel like watching pro matches would be too boring if the opponents weren't yelling and screaming and grunting. I've actually seen commentators complain when players make a really good shot and then just go set up for the next one without shouting into the stands etc.
Yelling and screaming or throwing and breaking rackets when some feel like they've messed up, enough and the grunting or whiny exhales just seem performative and or shows a lack of control or consideration for people. Especially playing at a facility with many different courts with many different games going on at the same time. No one wants to hear someone scream about how bad their shot was or a bunch of grunting or whining while they're trying to focus on their serve. Like how it's accepted to do a little fist pump when you make a good shot but yelling and screaming directly at your opponent is not.
It feels like folks do it to annoy their opponent or try to disguise how they're striking the ball and when. The head coach goes over breathing when teaching new students, we've had many people through the program at the college and none of them had problems exhaling without grunting, that anybody could notice. Especially the long drawn out whiny ones that are rare but we've got one of them trying out for the team now. They weren't there the other day and many brought it up and a few were making fun of it and mimicking it when they struck the ball.
I still catch myself making pirate like Arrr sounds when I hit an easy shot out or something but I shouldn't be and I'm working on it. We once had a guy in a class that would yell and berate himself when he messed up and we tried to talk to him a couple times about it but he ended up just leaving the class. It wasn't during the point or anything but it still affected everybody playing with him, against him or on the court next to him.
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enishi1357
Semi-Pro
I'm a rec player playing on public courts in a community primarily asians. I do speak to myself when I made a mistake but grunting is too much in my opinion. That's why I chose to play like a certain who don't grunt instead of Alcaraz. I'm not saying I can play like Alcaraz but I do wonder if he can play just as well without the grunting. If he can then I will consider changing my style to his for fun.
ballmachineguy
Legend
Ninety-nine percent of the people at my gym, regardless of amount of weight being lifted, don’t grunt. If you can stay quiet squatting 300lbs you can hitting a 2oz tennis ball. Totally unnecessary copycat behavior.
Spielgame
Hall of Fame
I don't grunt loudly, I just do a short "uh". I think it helps with breathing out when you hit the ball, and also I find it helps with grooving your timing. It's like guitar players or drum players who vocalise their beat while strumming their guitar or striking their drum. It helps your mind to deliberately measure the timing.
It's like when you count down from 3 before you're doing a race, it's easier to vocalise the count down instead of count down silently in your mind. Also, when you count hundreds of bank notes, it's easier to vocalise the count to help your mind to remember the counting.
It's like when you count down from 3 before you're doing a race, it's easier to vocalise the count down instead of count down silently in your mind. Also, when you count hundreds of bank notes, it's easier to vocalise the count to help your mind to remember the counting.
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Spielgame
Hall of Fame
That should be called as hindrance.
Mahboob Khan
Hall of Fame
If it's done unintentionally it's good, if it's done intentionally to distract others it's bad. One has to be natural with it.
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