Screwed over by the USTA rating system, PLEASE HELP!

Morch Us

Hall of Fame
Haha.... there are more cheating ideas....

Signup for 5.0 team wherever it is available (even if it is 2000 miles away), and get someone at 3.5 level to play "as you" in their local league.... you dont even have to travel... haha. You may have to find a "corky" captain though. Hell.... you can even be a captain yourself... and create that team.

Use your buddies USTA account to play some matches for him at 3.5 league. You don't even have to pay the annual USTA fee. Two players one account. Obviously your buddy better be a non-college legit 3.5 player. Maybe find some folks who just got injured... or folks who are stuck at 3.5, and wanting to get to 4.0 so bad......

Revenge the guy who filed "grievance against you" by influencing his future opponents to tank their matches at 6-0, 6-0.. and then get them to file a grievance against him, trapping him to 5.0

According to other posters here, USTA is not very tech savvy. So just get one of your computer science buddies at college to hack into their database and rate you at 3.5.

Then tank all your 3.5 matches and get bumped down to 3.0.

If you get caught just say you have a multiple personality disorder and this particular personality never played tennis before.
 

LocNetMonster

Professional
The 5.0 was likely punishment for creating a second/false USTA account. Be thankful you weren't suspended from USTA completely (although it sounds like being a 5.0 is effectively that). .... Actions have consequences. The USTA could have banned you for one year but what they did instead is pretty much ban you for much longer.

I'm surprised the USTA didn't DQ your wins. That would pissed off a lot of your teammates.
 

OrangePower

Legend
Haha.... there are more cheating ideas....

Signup for 5.0 team wherever it is available (even if it is 2000 miles away), and get someone at 3.5 level to play "as you" in their local league.... you dont even have to travel... haha. You may have to find a "corky" captain though. Hell.... you can even be a captain yourself... and create that team.

Use your buddies USTA account to play some matches for him at 3.5 league. You don't even have to pay the annual USTA fee. Two players one account. Obviously your buddy better be a non-college legit 3.5 player. Maybe find some folks who just got injured... or folks who are stuck at 3.5, and wanting to get to 4.0 so bad......

Revenge the guy who filed "grievance against you" by influencing his future opponents to tank their matches at 6-0, 6-0.. and then get them to file a grievance against him, trapping him to 5.0
Fun ideas, but a few years ago there was someone in my area who impersonated another person for a match, got caught, USTA investigated, and then four people ended up getting suspended from USTA for 3 years. The captain, co-captain, player doing the impersonation, and player being impersonated. I don't know all the details but apparently USTA concluded that they were all in the know about it. Your results may vary.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Sorry for using your incident for some fun talks/jokes in above comments.

But in all seriousness, if you love tennis, your best options are outside USTA.

In some areas that is more difficult and/or requires a lot more work. In my area, clubs seem to provide very little in terms of club ladders/leagues, just clinics and perhaps a quarterly adult social.
Finding your own group of playing buddies takes work and time.
Many people really enjoy the league and team experience that seems to only be found in USTA ... at least in my area.

I enjoyed your fun jokes a great deal ... makes me wonder how often some of them happen!
 

TennisCJC

Legend
whoa dude, creating a false account was not cool.

do you have internet flex leagues in your area? you could self-rate into these. even if they require you to play 5.0, you'll lose and get bumped down after 1 season usually about 3 months. other than that, maybe take weekly hitting clinics and find some friends you can practice with or even a 4.0 usta team you could practice with.

Also, if you're 21 years old, have access to college level hitting partners and practicing regularly; you should be a strong 4.0 or weak 4.5 by the end of your senior season.
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
D1 tennis must be different today than it used to be. It is impossible to imagine anyone playing D1 tennis in the past 10-20 years ever being a legit 3.5 or 4.0. Maybe back in the 1980s it just wasn't that competitive.
problem is that usta does not distinguish between d1/d2/d3, ranked/unranked, club/team, etc...
while i agree that no college *team* player should be less than 4.0... there are plenty of college players that i know that were definitely no more than 4.0
definitely have known some "club" players that were 3.5's (or less).

player from ranked d1 is probably 6.0+

imo the real weenies in the usta system, are the folks that complain, crying sandbagger, blah, blah, blah, "you're stealing my 3.5 national trophy chance"...

i'd welcome any sandbagger for chance to play better competition.

[edit] if i were in same situation, i probably would have created a second account too... not saying it's right (only way to circumvent a poor system), but that'd be the only way to play (ie. no 4.5/5.0 team would take me - so i couldn't get a "proper rating from match losses"). either way, the OP ended up in the same situation regardless of whether he appealed the right way or not... that is, he's not gonna be able to play.

IMO a better system would be to allow self rates, but if they have any red flags about their matches, their matches get DQ'd, and they get bumped up (which deters captains from playing sandbaggers)

i've had to deal with a few LC's and every time it feels like they are clueless... like 3.0 players themselves, that have no clue about ratings... and also bucket all "college" players together.

my $0.02
 
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kylebarendrick

Professional
I'm fully on board with the "no self rated players allowed in the post season" approach. That eliminates the motivation for captains to recruit above level players and is consistent with the published (although ignored) rating guideline that says when in doubt, pick the higher level. If you are good enough to be in a playoff line-up, then you should have rated at the next level.

Once that system is in place, then I am fine with welcoming sandbaggers for some better competition. I just don't want to reward dirtbag captains for gaming the system.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
I just don't see how anyone who played college tennis would struggle with 4.0s. It's not like 4.0 is particularly strong athletic tennis. Guys with beer guts and knee braces abound at 4.0. No reason even a scrub on a college team shouldn't smoke them.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
I just don't see how anyone who played college tennis would struggle with 4.0s. It's not like 4.0 is particularly strong athletic tennis. Guys with beer guts and knee braces abound at 4.0. No reason even a scrub on a college team shouldn't smoke them.
Again, "college" isn't a level. There are college teams in weak conferences who have guys who've been playing competitively maybe 2 or 3 years and still struggle to keep balls in the court. Guys with beer guts and knee braces, but 20+ years of experience and a variety of slices and spins will beat inexperienced but athletic bashers. In your mind, you're thinking of "typical" college play, and typical college play is 4.5-5.0 even in D3, but at the bottom of the distribution, there are people playing for college varsity teams who are much weaker than that. Just because 98% of varsity college players are 4.5 or higher doesn't mean that there aren't 2% who aren't.
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
I just don't see how anyone who played college tennis would struggle with 4.0s. It's not like 4.0 is particularly strong athletic tennis. Guys with beer guts and knee braces abound at 4.0. No reason even a scrub on a college team shouldn't smoke them.
agreed, no college guy should struggle at 4.0... but very possible that's the right level for them

women's tennis on the other hand, given title ix, can easily have 3.5's playing on a college team.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Again, "college" isn't a level. There are college teams in weak conferences who have guys who've been playing competitively maybe 2 or 3 years and still struggle to keep balls in the court. Guys with beer guts and knee braces, but 20+ years of experience and a variety of slices and spins will beat inexperienced but athletic bashers. In your mind, you're thinking of "typical" college play, and typical college play is 4.5-5.0 even in D3, but at the bottom of the distribution, there are people playing for college varsity teams who are much weaker than that. Just because 98% of varsity college players are 4.5 or higher doesn't mean that there aren't 2% who aren't.

Perhaps you are right, and I just haven't been around the weaker schools with 3.5/4.0 level college players. In my experience, even JUCO players smoke 4.0s and shouldn't even be on the same court with them. But maybe my sample size isn't large enough.
 

Startzel

Hall of Fame
imo the real weenies in the usta system, are the folks that complain, crying sandbagger, blah, blah, blah, "you're stealing my 3.5 national trophy chance"...

Does anyone actually complain like this about this other than other sandbaggers?

While you may enjoy getting waxed by better competitions, most people sign up to play somewhat competitive league matches. That's why we're playing handicapped matches instead of open level events.

We had a singles league match nearly an hour away from home earlier this year and my two teammates both lost 0,0 and 0,1 to two self rated guys in less than 30 minutes. It was a terrible experience for them because they probably hit more balls warming up than they did in the match. To add insult to injury one of them lost to a guy rated a level below our level.

It also ruined my match because I'm tied 4,4 in the first set and suddenly I have two miserable teammates sitting there brooding, waiting so we can ride home together. So I just had to throw the rest of the match to be a good teammate instead of making them wait an hour and a half for it to be over.

It was a complete waste of our time.
 

kylebarendrick

Professional
Does anyone actually complain like this about this other than other sandbaggers?

While you may enjoy getting waxed by better competitions, most people sign up to play somewhat competitive league matches. That's why we're playing handicapped matches instead of open level events.

We had a singles league match nearly an hour away from home earlier this year and my two teammates both lost 0,0 and 0,1 to two self rated guys in less than 30 minutes. It was a terrible experience for them because they probably hit more balls warming up than they did in the match. To add insult to injury one of them lost to a guy rated a level below our level.

It also ruined my match because I'm tied 4,4 in the first set and suddenly I have two miserable teammates sitting there brooding, waiting so we can ride home together. So I just had to throw the rest of the match to be a good teammate instead of making them wait an hour and a half for it to be over.

It was a complete waste of our time.
Sounds like an excuse to tank your match and preserve your rating!

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Does anyone actually complain like this about this other than other sandbaggers?

While you may enjoy getting waxed by better competitions, most people sign up to play somewhat competitive league matches. That's why we're playing handicapped matches instead of open level events.

We had a singles league match nearly an hour away from home earlier this year and my two teammates both lost 0,0 and 0,1 to two self rated guys in less than 30 minutes. It was a terrible experience for them because they probably hit more balls warming up than they did in the match. To add insult to injury one of them lost to a guy rated a level below our level.

It also ruined my match because I'm tied 4,4 in the first set and suddenly I have two miserable teammates sitting there brooding, waiting so we can ride home together. So I just had to throw the rest of the match to be a good teammate instead of making them wait an hour and a half for it to be over.

It was a complete waste of our time.

lol. Solid gold poast.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Perhaps you are right, and I just haven't been around the weaker schools with 3.5/4.0 level college players. In my experience, even JUCO players smoke 4.0s and shouldn't even be on the same court with them. But maybe my sample size isn't large enough.
Personally, I don't think that any college players should be allowed to self-rate or appeal all the way down to 3.5, but 4.0 is reasonable IF the sectional appeals committee reviews the case and judges that 4.0 is appropriate. But, like I said, we had a D3 team appeal to 4.0 as a team to play in a men's league and half the guys were bumped down to 3.5 after the season. I played against this team. We played two kids who couldn't volley and hit huge topspin forehands that landed in about 30% of the time tops. We won 6-0 6-1.

As for Juco, the local juco is really a mixed bag. Their #1 is usually at least 4.5 and sometimes higher, but once you get down to 4th or 5th in their singles lineup, it's often no better than 3.5.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
While you may enjoy getting waxed by better competitions, most people sign up to play somewhat competitive league matches. That's why we're playing handicapped matches instead of open level events.

I got waxed by a 5.0 and I had a good time trying to figure out any way I could stay on the court longer. I even pulled off a couple of ridiculous drop volleys simply because I didn't have anything to lose.

I'm with @nytennisaddict: I'll take whatever competition comes my way and won't spend much time bemoaning my lot in life.

We had a singles league match nearly an hour away from home earlier this year and my two teammates both lost 0,0 and 0,1 to two self rated guys in less than 30 minutes. It was a terrible experience for them because they probably hit more balls warming up than they did in the match. To add insult to injury one of them lost to a guy rated a level below our level.

Yeah, that does suck. Getting injured while playing also sucks. Getting rained out sucks. Having to forfeit a doubles line because your partner can't make it sucks. How often does each occur? Often enough to make you want to quit the game? Not for me.

Even if there was no sandbagging, one might still lose 0 & 0 when having a bad day. Try to identify what went wrong and move on.

It also ruined my match because I'm tied 4,4 in the first set and suddenly I have two miserable teammates sitting there brooding, waiting so we can ride home together. So I just had to throw the rest of the match to be a good teammate instead of making them wait an hour and a half for it to be over.

It was a complete waste of our time.

You let it ruin your match by the way you reacted; you have no control over how the circumstances developed.

By throwing the match, you're artificially suppressing your rating [ie sandbagging]. Ironic, isn't it?
 

Startzel

Hall of Fame
I got waxed by a 5.0 and I had a good time trying to figure out any way I could stay on the court longer. I even pulled off a couple of ridiculous drop volleys simply because I didn't have anything to lose.

I'm with @nytennisaddict: I'll take whatever competition comes my way and won't spend much time bemoaning my lot in life.



Yeah, that does suck. Getting injured while playing also sucks. Getting rained out sucks. Having to forfeit a doubles line because your partner can't make it sucks. How often does each occur? Often enough to make you want to quit the game? Not for me.

Even if there was no sandbagging, one might still lose 0 & 0 when having a bad day. Try to identify what went wrong and move on.



You let it ruin your match by the way you reacted; you have no control over how the circumstances developed.

By throwing the match, you're artificially suppressing your rating [ie sandbagging]. Ironic, isn't it?

Why do you try so hard to make nonsensical arguments? You’re literally arguing against playing handicapped tennis.

If someone stole your credit card do you enjoy the challenge of paying for someone else’s stuff? Of course not, you report it to the bank to get your money backs

I just can’t imagine thinking it’s a good thing when someone breaks the law/rules.

“I just love mass shootings when someone kills 58 people and injures 500+ people. I can’t believe the families of the victims bemoan life and whine so much about it. It was just a great opportunity for the victims to practice dodging bullets!!!”

- @S&V-not_dead_yet


And no it isn’t ironic because singles matches here don’t count against your rating. But don’t let being rational get in the way of another flawed argument.
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
You’re literally arguing against playing handicapped tennis.
i’m arguing for letting the occasional ringer beat me on the tennis court for a season, knowing he will eventually get bumped up and out of my level eventually.

i’m all for handicapped tennis, but a few beatings along the way really get me motivated to improve, practice, train, etc,... it’s not like we’re boxing or some other striking art, where level/weight discrepancies can result in major injury.

it’s hard (without paying) to get a regular diet of much better players to hit against, so I welcome the occasional sandbagger (or whatever you want to call him) as an opportunity to learn/practice against.

imo folks that complain about sandbaggers do so because it forces them to adjust, highlight their weaknesses, etc,... but instead of using that loss as motivation to fight to improve, they’d rather fight (pine) for status quo.

In previous years I paid quite a bit of time/money to play open tourneys, exactly for the opportunity to sometimes go up against a ranked d1 or atp guy (generally test myself against people much better,... for the experience/growth benefits/etc,...). having a ringer play through my level means I get that experience for free [emoji4]

now if I had to pay a decent amount for travel hotel etc,.... (ie nationals), I don’t think it’d be worth my time/money to get beat up by ringers,... but in general i’m not a fan of nationals - because there are plenty of much better competition within a 30 min radius of me that I don’t need to travel.
 
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Jim A

Professional
Singles league doesn't count in our section so I didn't even get to pull at @Jim A so it was merely a waste of time and money.

Yep. Appealed Down already as we all did in our secret lab here in our section where we have a willing doctors and enhanced computer bot that gets it automatically done. The same people who prescribe medical marijuana prescriptions are the ones we get for medical appeals. It’s a 2-4-1 deal. Guessing 7 of us will be approved by Christmas so we can play in the last tourney of the year and reset for 2018 pretty soon. I’d sent you our LLC info but guessing you already have his email.

Nothing better than a youngster with time on their hands and an internet connection. This is why we can’t have nice things

FWIW. and those unfamiliar with Startzel. He is our resident NTRP troll who thinks a few of us mastermind our dntrp. There is a long thread where I shared my 2016 match results and even 2015. The winter is tough on him so go easy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Startzel

Hall of Fame
Yep. Appealed Down already as we all did in our secret lab here in our section where we have a willing doctors and enhanced computer bot that gets it automatically done. The same people who prescribe medical marijuana prescriptions are the ones we get for medical appeals. It’s a 2-4-1 deal. Guessing 7 of us will be approved by Christmas so we can play in the last tourney of the year and reset for 2018 pretty soon. I’d sent you our LLC info but guessing you already have his email.

Nothing better than a youngster with time on their hands and an internet connection. This is why we can’t have nice things

FWIW. and those unfamiliar with Startzel. He is our resident NTRP troll who thinks a few of us mastermind our dntrp. There is a long thread where I shared my 2016 match results and even 2015. The winter is tough on him so go easy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This bump really has you shook.
 

Sakkijarvi

Semi-Pro
I'm not going to go after the low-hanging fruit and point some 'internet style' finger of judgement at the OP.

What I will say is that I, as a mid-50 year old male, have beaten the pants off of D3 singles players when matched up against them at a club that mainly serves youth tennis as an academy. The owner, also the head pro, would match me up with young players for match play. I am a longtime USTA 4.0.

I have also played against mid major D1 - entirely different animal - have not taken a set. Played this summer against a runner up, state 18 and under singles - did not take a set.

My daughter was recruited, if you call it that at D3 - with my experience around D1 and 2 sports circles, I call it more of an 'inducement' to matriculate - another conversation. Nevertheless, 2 D3 coaches had a place for her on their teams and she is a female 3.5 without a shred of doubt.

So in my personal experience, any system with a one size fits all, check the boxes bureaucracy is flawed - it keeps bureaucratic humans from ever having to think outside the box or make decisions, yes. But please, if you think every "college" player is at 4.5 or better, well you've just never spent any court time with one.
 

DBH

New User
We had a singles league match nearly an hour away from home earlier this year and my two teammates both lost 0,0 and 0,1 to two self rated guys in less than 30 minutes. It was a terrible experience for them because they probably hit more balls warming up than they did in the match. To add insult to injury one of them lost to a guy rated a level below our level.

It also ruined my match because I'm tied 4,4 in the first set and suddenly I have two miserable teammates sitting there brooding, waiting so we can ride home together. So I just had to throw the rest of the match to be a good teammate instead of making them wait an hour and a half for it to be over.

It was a complete waste of our time.

Hmm ... "being a good teammate" would have been your teammates being happy to watch you and cheer you on in your competitive match, not your intentionally losing the rest of your match.
 

Startzel

Hall of Fame
Hmm ... "being a good teammate" would have been your teammates being happy to watch you and cheer you on in your competitive match, not your intentionally losing the rest of your match.

Yeah I’m not going to fault them for being disheartened after a couple sandbaggers wasted their time to make the trip.
 
Sorry if this a long post but the backstory is important to the story. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I am a 3.5 to 4.0 level player. I play on a DIII college tennis team, however I am not a starter and have played in just 4 meets my whole college tennis career (I'm currently a senior). Because I wasn't playing a ton on my college team and I wanted more competitive tennis, I decided to join a 7.0 mixed team at my local club last fall. I went to self rate and because I was on the college roster i was automatically made a 5.0 (despite my actual ability being 3.5-4.0), which meant I was ineligible to play on the 7.0 team. I had multiple phone conversations with my regional USTA office (Missouri Valley) and each time they told me that because I'm "still young and training" that they anticipate I'll get to that level (it's been over a year and I still couldn't compete with 4.5s let alone 5.0s). I also filed and appeal in which they moved me to 4.5 (still ineligible for 7.0). After this I created a new USTA account and re self rated saying I did not play college tennis. I got a 3.5 rating and played on the 7.0 team, a 3.5 men's team this past spring and a 7.0 mixed again this fall. Well last week someone filed a grievance against me saying I was rated too low because I'm in college. I provided a statement pointing out the major logical flaws of saying every DIII player is a 5.0 and that it was not supporting their mission ( "to promote and develop the growth of tennis") to over rate weaker players so they can't play at a level that is competitive for them. The USTA still ruled against me and when ratings came out yesterday I was up to a 5.0 without the ability to appeal. Not only does it make me ineligible for the 7.0 mixed and 3.5 men's teams, but there are no 9.0 mixed teams or 5.0 men's teams in my area. And even if there were i would get destroyed every time. It also takes a long time to get these rating down just by losing matches and I think it's rather unfair that I should have to pay money to play and lose just to get my rating down to where it should be in the first place. The main thing that's troubling me is that this means I will have no opportunity for any competitive tennis after I graduate because I won't be able to play any USTA leagues. So I am currently trying to think of any possible way that I can argue to get my rating down to at least a 4.0 so I can continue to play the game. Has anyone had a similar thing happen to them or any other suggestions? Any help would be appreciated.
Which Missouri valley section is that
 

norcal

Legend
I was playing this guy in a league match, nice competitive first set tied 4-4. Suddenly the guy gets all pouty and tanks the rest of the match. He said he had to go because he drove and his teammates' matches were done already and he didn't want to make them wait.

I'm pretty sure he was just scared he was going to lose a tough match so he decided to put the blame on his teammates, like a little b**ch.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Why do you try so hard to make nonsensical arguments? You’re literally arguing against playing handicapped tennis.

I try hard when arguing, nonsensical or otherwise.

Clearly I'm not arguing that because then I'd play Open. Since I don't want to get plastered 95% of the time [there's a slight chance I'll run into someone else whose playing Open for the heck of it], I stick to my NTRP bracket. I accept the fact that I will get plastered occasionally but not anywhere near 95%. If I somehow get bumped to 5.0, I will definitely be getting plastered a lot more but not because others are sandbagging.

If someone stole your credit card do you enjoy the challenge of paying for someone else’s stuff? Of course not, you report it to the bank to get your money backs

That's a revealing analogy: in the CC instance, the thief is stealing your credit rating [potentially]. In the sandbagger example, he's stealing your NTRP rating. That says something about how you view your NTRP.

And no it isn’t ironic because singles matches here don’t count against your rating. But don’t let being rational get in the way of another flawed argument.

How can singles matches not count against your rating? What does count against your rating? Doubles only? I wasn't aware there was any region where singles matches didn't count [unless you play mostly Mixed and have an "M" rating].
 

Morch Us

Hall of Fame
I agree, sandbaggers does play the system. But which law are they breaking?

someone breaks the law/rules

Disclaimer: I am not recommending sandbagging, or really don't have anything against sandbagging. I cannot sandbag anyway. I keep a USTA membership for other/business reasons, and I only play a couple of USTA open tournaments or challengers per year. So my rating will most probably will remain same irrespective of the results (had been same for long).
 

Startzel

Hall of Fame
I try hard when arguing, nonsensical or otherwise.

Clearly I'm not arguing that because then I'd play Open. Since I don't want to get plastered 95% of the time [there's a slight chance I'll run into someone else whose playing Open for the heck of it], I stick to my NTRP bracket. I accept the fact that I will get plastered occasionally but not anywhere near 95%. If I somehow get bumped to 5.0, I will definitely be getting plastered a lot more but not because others are sandbagging.



That's a revealing analogy: in the CC instance, the thief is stealing your credit rating [potentially]. In the sandbagger example, he's stealing your NTRP rating. That says something about how you view your NTRP.



How can singles matches not count against your rating? What does count against your rating? Doubles only? I wasn't aware there was any region where singles matches didn't count [unless you play mostly Mixed and have an "M" rating].

It was singles season where every point is a singles point.

Only spring counts here.
 

Startzel

Hall of Fame
That's a revealing analogy: in the CC instance, the thief is stealing your credit rating [potentially]. In the sandbagger example, he's stealing your NTRP rating. That says something about how you view your NTRP.

That's not how I view my NTRP. A comparison doesn't have to be a 100% match. Otherwise it wouldn't be a comparison.

The comparison is for the logic you're using. Clearly you don't truly believe it's ok to break rules.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah I’m not going to fault them for being disheartened after a couple sandbaggers wasted their time to make the trip.

All depends on what they choose to focus on.

I played a non-sanctioned tourney and in the semis met the son of an ex-pro. I was playing A and this kid should have been playing Open. I got smoked 1 & 1 and those games were more because he was messing around a bit. I took it as a learning experience and moved on. Sometimes you're the bug and sometimes you're the windshield; this time, I was definitely the bug. And I survived with no appreciable scar tissue.

If you want to be the Guardian of the Galaxy against sandbagging, have at it. People will probably benefit from your efforts to keep competition more level. The ones that are left, anyway.
 

Morch Us

Hall of Fame
ATP tour has specific rules in place, and "failing to give a full effort" on a match is a violation.

Please educate me: Are there any such rules in place for USTA ? Are you really breaking a USTA rule if you "fail to give a full effort" on a match?
Working the system, and breaking the rules are different things.


Laws and rules are the same thing. Just different governing bodies.
 

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
So in my personal experience, any system with a one size fits all, check the boxes bureaucracy is flawed - it keeps bureaucratic humans from ever having to think outside the box or make decisions

This much I agree with you on!

Before 2002 or 2003, the USTA had rating clinics. In order to play League Tennis, you'd have to go to your local club and you'd get paired up with 3 random people on a court and a Certified Teaching Pro would watch you and decide whether you were "allowed" to have the Rating you were going for. I was running a 3.0 team in 1999 and I actually had one player that they didnt let play 3.0.

Sure, sometimes it was a joke, and people would sandbag the Rating Clinic, and then there is the idea of how you can rate 4 people in 30 minutes when you have a 3.0 guy, a 4.5 guy, a lady and a tennis playing chicken on the same court....

But at least they had a human being with a brain there that was responsible.

The thing I liked besides the Rating part of it, was that it was a great way to start the league and it was a good way for new players to get involved and sometimes captains would roam these things looking for players. (not captains that wanted to go to Nationals, but back in the day MOST of the teams didnt care about that)

But no, the USTA is LAZY and NOT RESPONSIBLE, so now we have a situation where we all "Rate Ourselves" and when someone rates themselves wrong we sit around and point fingers and cry and whine that they cheated instead of the USTA being responsible for this part of it.....
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
This much I agree with you on!

Before 2002 or 2003, the USTA had rating clinics. In order to play League Tennis, you'd have to go to your local club and you'd get paired up with 3 random people on a court and a Certified Teaching Pro would watch you and decide whether you were "allowed" to have the Rating you were going for. I was running a 3.0 team in 1999 and I actually had one player that they didnt let play 3.0.

Sure, sometimes it was a joke, and people would sandbag the Rating Clinic, and then there is the idea of how you can rate 4 people in 30 minutes when you have a 3.0 guy, a 4.5 guy, a lady and a tennis playing chicken on the same court....

But at least they had a human being with a brain there that was responsible.

The thing I liked besides the Rating part of it, was that it was a great way to start the league and it was a good way for new players to get involved and sometimes captains would roam these things looking for players. (not captains that wanted to go to Nationals, but back in the day MOST of the teams didnt care about that)

But no, the USTA is LAZY and NOT RESPONSIBLE, so now we have a situation where we all "Rate Ourselves" and when someone rates themselves wrong we sit around and point fingers and cry and whine that they cheated instead of the USTA being responsible for this part of it.....
IMO at ratings clinic would be a huge obstacle to those on the fence about playing or not. It's a lot easier to pay $40, self-rate and show up and play your first match than it is to pay $40, carve an hour out of your schedule at a time not of your choosing to go and hit tennis balls with strangers while someone is judging you, then go play your first match.

I'd be interested to see if there was a bump in the number of league players for the first few years after these self-ratings clinics ended.
 

Sakkijarvi

Semi-Pro
This much I agree with you on!

Before 2002 or 2003, the USTA had rating clinics. In order to play League Tennis, you'd have to go to your local club and you'd get paired up with 3 random people on a court and a Certified Teaching Pro would watch you and decide whether you were "allowed" to have the Rating you were going for. I was running a 3.0 team in 1999 and I actually had one player that they didnt let play 3.0.

Sure, sometimes it was a joke, and people would sandbag the Rating Clinic, and then there is the idea of how you can rate 4 people in 30 minutes when you have a 3.0 guy, a 4.5 guy, a lady and a tennis playing chicken on the same court....

But at least they had a human being with a brain there that was responsible.

The thing I liked besides the Rating part of it, was that it was a great way to start the league and it was a good way for new players to get involved and sometimes captains would roam these things looking for players. (not captains that wanted to go to Nationals, but back in the day MOST of the teams didnt care about that)

But no, the USTA is LAZY and NOT RESPONSIBLE, so now we have a situation where we all "Rate Ourselves" and when someone rates themselves wrong we sit around and point fingers and cry and whine that they cheated instead of the USTA being responsible for this part of it.....

I am with you there - IMO things were better when a club pro would hit with you and get you a baseline level. Now overall there seems to have less investment - outside of swiping your card at a USTA match (noting I see clubs behind the local supermarket and not into the chipped cards yet - along with usually failing to provide a detailed printout of billing unless one 'asks' - another conversation).
 

chatt_town

Hall of Fame
Sorry if this a long post but the backstory is important to the story. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I am a 3.5 to 4.0 level player. I play on a DIII college tennis team, however I am not a starter and have played in just 4 meets my whole college tennis career (I'm currently a senior). Because I wasn't playing a ton on my college team and I wanted more competitive tennis, I decided to join a 7.0 mixed team at my local club last fall. I went to self rate and because I was on the college roster i was automatically made a 5.0 (despite my actual ability being 3.5-4.0), which meant I was ineligible to play on the 7.0 team. I had multiple phone conversations with my regional USTA office (Missouri Valley) and each time they told me that because I'm "still young and training" that they anticipate I'll get to that level (it's been over a year and I still couldn't compete with 4.5s let alone 5.0s). I also filed and appeal in which they moved me to 4.5 (still ineligible for 7.0). After this I created a new USTA account and re self rated saying I did not play college tennis. I got a 3.5 rating and played on the 7.0 team, a 3.5 men's team this past spring and a 7.0 mixed again this fall. Well last week someone filed a grievance against me saying I was rated too low because I'm in college. I provided a statement pointing out the major logical flaws of saying every DIII player is a 5.0 and that it was not supporting their mission ( "to promote and develop the growth of tennis") to over rate weaker players so they can't play at a level that is competitive for them. The USTA still ruled against me and when ratings came out yesterday I was up to a 5.0 without the ability to appeal. Not only does it make me ineligible for the 7.0 mixed and 3.5 men's teams, but there are no 9.0 mixed teams or 5.0 men's teams in my area. And even if there were i would get destroyed every time. It also takes a long time to get these rating down just by losing matches and I think it's rather unfair that I should have to pay money to play and lose just to get my rating down to where it should be in the first place. The main thing that's troubling me is that this means I will have no opportunity for any competitive tennis after I graduate because I won't be able to play any USTA leagues. So I am currently trying to think of any possible way that I can argue to get my rating down to at least a 4.0 so I can continue to play the game. Has anyone had a similar thing happen to them or any other suggestions? Any help would be appreciated.


They don't care bro. I'm pretty sure here they had some 5.0 playing with 3.0's. I thought they had like a 1.0 min but I don't think so. I'm really not sure but that's what I heard. I really don't play any mixed usta because of how flawed it is. It encourages people to do things they shouldn't be doing. You are pretty much screwed. Probably would have been better to consult with someone. I'm pretty sure I've played several d111 players in usta. All D1 players aren't that good. Just because you were on a team doesn't mean you play that level. I'm almost 50 got two wins over a so called D1 player, but I get what usta is doing by having a standard because if you didn't you'd have all kinds of d1 players as well as good d3 players all down in 3.5 hitting people in the face or eye with ground strokes. It is what it is man. Your best bet is to move to atl and get into a Alta league. Its all doubles but it's what most people do when they get the death sentence(moved to 4.5) especially at my age. :) Good luck.
 

stevenymets

New User
Responding to the OP

Where I haven't read every response to this thread, I have read most. This was a good post OP. Any post that engenders impassioned responses, that get's people engaged is a good thread.

Excuse me if anything I say here has already been covered, as I said, I read most, but not all responses. As is the case with almost any situation, there are two sides to every story, which doesn't mean that one side doesn't have right more on their side than the other, but things are usually a certain shade of gray, sometimes darker, sometimes lighter.

Let's get some "housecleaning" out of the way.....
  1. If league tennis had existed when I graduated from college I would have been in a very similar situation as you, so I empathize. The "one size fits all" rating of all college players is inaccurate and not the best way to handle this by the USTA. There are approximately 442 Division 3 schools in the United States, there are approximately 312 Division 2 schools and there are approximately 347 Division 1 schools. (Rough numbers) How many schools out of those approximately 1,101 schools have tennis teams? I don't know, let's estimate conservatively that 50% do, which puts us at 550.5 (look out for the half of school, I hear their number one player is awesome!) And by the way, this doesn't include JUCOs or NAIA schools. I think we could all agree, that across 550 schools, there is probably a wide range of tennis talent. Everything from, I don't know, 3.0 (I am being pretty arbitrary here) to world class players are playing. So, to label everyone as a 5.0 (if that is what the USTA is doing, and I am taking the OPs word for it) seems inaccurate at the least, and downright wrong needing to be fixed at the worst.
  2. However, as is often the case, and the OP will learn this as he graduates and starts working if he hasn't learned this already, quite often, a process, or a decision is made where the principals know it isn't the best way to do things, but there are no better alternatives at that time. Maybe the USTA realized that it just wasn't cost effective to do this any other way simply due to the diversity of players. For example, I attended the Division 3 national championships about 10 years ago.........these guys were not players I played against at Division 3 when I was in college. They looked like pros, literally, could be playing Sattelite level tennis (no need to look any further than Eric Butorac to see an example of this.) And I am sure nowadays, the lowest of the low D3 schools have some pretty novice players, so even within D3 it would be very difficult to just apply a blanket rating. But what is the USTA supposed to do? Maybe rate everyone at 5.0 but give you the option to show up at a certain place at a certain time to go through a rating session like the USTA used to do for the "general population" years ago? Interesting thought, but not posting to solve this problem.

Now for the fun....
  1. Let's get back to the gray for a sec here.....OP, I would love to know what your record was playing your one year at 3.5. It strikes me that someone isn't going to file a grievance against a player, or even notice a player that is middle of the pack or losing at a certain level. On the other hand, if someone is obviously better and/or dominating, league participants might look into the player's background. Your initial post strikes me as a bit disingenuous, why would people file a grievance? Were you kicking butt at 3.5? Did you self rate at 3.5 because you really believed you were a 3.5, or was it because you had friends, or knew people on a team, and they told you "hey, self rate at 3.5 and you can play with us and we will dominate."
  2. While I already agreed that the USTA policy of a blanket rating of 5.0 for NCAA players is probably not the best way to do things, the USTA came back and granted you a 4.5 rating. They compromised. For arguments sake, let's say that this is still above your playing level............OK........soooooooooo.......GO FOR IT!!!!! OP, you're a college tennis player, D3, this is technically "open" tennis", no ratings here. I am sure in the 4 matches or however many you have played, you played people that were worse than you and played players that were better. You're playing open tennis, but you don't want to test yourself at 4.5? I would think a competitor such as yourself, who is currently playing open tennis, would want to go against the best they could. What is the downside, so let's say you get pummeled for a season. Ok, how many matches does someone play on three USTA league teams (mixed and mens) in a year......what, maybe 18 matches? (total guess, but that might be generous.) So, you lose 18 matches over the course of a year, but you gain the great experience of playing against excellent competition and probably become a better player for it. Great experience! Now, after one year of playing, you are probably a better player than you were, and you are dropped to 4.0, where you should be. That sounds pretty good to me.
  3. Instead, you went ahead and tried to "game" the system by self rating and misrepresenting yourself. I think it has been established here that the general consensus was this was not a great idea. I don't know what emotions you were feeling, or what your thought process was, so I won't judge, but you broke the rules. Even if the rule you broke was wrong (the blanket rating of 5.0s for all NCAA players), you still broke it. And while I have sympathy for you, and the rule should be improved, breaking rules by misrepresenting yourself within the paradigm that is USTA ratings is not the way to fix the situation or get the rules changed. Now you have to be held accountable, and that is playing as a 5.0. You say there are no 5.0 teams in your area, well, that is part of the punishment, you will have to go travel to find a team to play on. You will have to spend a season getting lumped up at 5.0, but this is the price you will have to pay.
In summary.........

OP, look on the bright side of things. Go out, play your 5.0 season of penance, (really, how many matches will that be, 4 or 5?) take pride in the fact that you're playing against great competition, embrace it and make yourself a better player. And every time you have to drive an hour or 2 to get to a match, or your putting more gas in your car, take that time to remember that there is a price to pay for breaking the rules, even if the rules are bad or inequitable. But also use that time wisely, think about how best to get that bad USTA rule changed. Work toward that instead of coming up with ways to circumvent or break the rules. Yes, the system is broken, but by breaking the rules you're making it more broken rather than trying to fix it.

In summary part 2........

Not to get deep, but I think USTA league tennis is a great petri dish for sociological and psychological observation. There is a lot of great people who play league tennis, but I see many high character people doing low character things when it comes to playing league tennis. What I would love to see is people being accountable, embracing competition and wanting to test themselves to be the best they can be. Does that sound ridiculously idealistic and a bit naive possibly, probably yes, but c'mon, we are adults here, this is just tennis, it ain't life, have some perspective......
  1. If the ball is out, or even if it is close and you aren't sure, give the point to your opponent. Do you really want to win by stealing questionable points? Does that feel good to win that way?
  2. Does sandbagging, appealing (not sure if you can even do this anymore), combining matches across type in a certain way (I played only 3 men's matches this season, but 5 mixed, 8 combo, and 6 interspecies matches), self rating inaccurately, etc, etc, so you can play at a level below what you really are feel good? Does pummeling inferior competition feel like an accomplishment?
Or, does getting bumped up, going out and finding a team, embracing the new challenge, taking your lumps along the way, problem solving, working to improve, being disciplined and becoming a better player feel good? Knowing that you are testing yourself to the best of your capabilities.

Sport is about embracing the challenge and being the best you can be. Even if you get crushed at a certain level, it beats playing at a low level and crushing everyone because you are artificially representing yourself. I would rather finish in last place, playing at the appropriate level, or a level above, knowing that I am improving as a player and working hard, and being pushed to be the best that I can be, than win a national championship on a team where I am playing a level down. I would rather lose a match, than win knowing I called a ball out that was really in. I would rather play solid, sportsmanlike tennis and lose than push the limits of the hindrance rule by doing whatever these people do on court to try to distract their opponent.

Just sayin, it might be harder, but doin the "right" thing is also more rewarding......
 
OP didn't get screwed over; the USTA granted his appeal down to 4.5. He could have played a few 4.5 matches, gone 1-4, and been bumped down to 4.0, where he belongs. Instead he cheated the system and got a well-deserved punishment bump to 5.0.
 
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