Second greatest clay courter in the Nadal Era

[Eren]

This thread is about Djokovic and Federer against good clay courters in general (>= 2 final appearances at RG) and at RG in particular. I chose the thread title poorly, but I can't change it.

We all know who the best is on clay since 2005. Just to list the obvious:

RG Titles: 11 (99.9% chance of it being 12 after tomorrow)
H2H vs. Fed: 6-0 at RG and 8-0 in a BO5 format, 14-2 in total on clay
H2H vs. Djokovic: 6-1 at RG and 7-1 in a BO5 format, 17-7 in total on clay
Etc.

The best clay courters after Nadal have been Federer, Djokovic, Wawrinka (they all won RG), Thiem (defeated Nadal 4 times on clay and made it to his second consecutive RG final) and perhaps Soderling who reached 2 finals in a row beating defending RG champs along the way in both his final runs.

Now, a lot of people consider Djokovic to be the second best right after Nadal.

Djokovic, in fact, has not a winning record at RG against any of these good clay courters. I thought it was remarkable since a lot of people think Djokovic is the distinct number two on clay after Nadal.

RG Titles: 1 + 3 RUs
H2H vs. Fed: 1-1 at RG, 4-4 on clay
H2H vs. Wawrinka: 0-1 at RG, 1-2 in clay finals and 5-2 in total on clay
H2H vs. Soderling: 0-0 at RG, 2-0 on clay
H2H vs. Thiem: 1-2 at RG, 3-3 on clay

For Federer

RG Titles: 1 + 4 RUs
H2H vs. Djokovic: 1-1 at RG, 4-4 on clay
H2H vs. Wawrinka: 3-1 at RG, 0-1 in clay finals and 5-3 in total on clay
H2H vs. Soderling: 1-1 at RG, 1-0 in clay finals, 4-1 on clay
H2H vs. Thiem: 0-0 at RG, 0-2 on clay
H2H vs. Kuerten: 0-1 at RG, 1-1 on clay

As you can see, there is not a lot that separates Fed and Djoke vs. other good clay courters than Nadal.

Djokovic has done well vs. Nadal in a BO3 but in a BO5 format, he has been owned just like Fed. The difference is pretty small with one petty victory for Djokovic in 2015.

Djokovic and Federer after their first 6 matches against Nadal at RG
Both: 0-6 at RG (no difference)
Federer: Sets won: 4 in 6 matches
Djokovic: Sets won: 4 in 6 matches

Again, nothing that really separates the two.

In the end, we have a distinct number one. The number two is very debatable. Djokovic has done well in a BO3 and pretty poor in a BO5.

As things stand:

RG legacy: Fed > Djoke (1 + 4 RUs > 1 + 3 RUs)
Vs. good clay courters other than Nadal: Fed > Djoke (Federer one losing record at RG, Novak a losing record against 2)
Vs. Nadal: Djoke > Fed

Regarding H2H (which a lot of people use to downplay Fed's achievements) at RG Djokovic is not a distinct number two on clay at all.

Djokovic vs. good clay courters other than Nadal at RG: 2-4 losing record
Federer vs. good clay courters other than Nadal at RG: 5-4 winning record

Djokovic vs. good clay courters including Nadal at RG: 3-10 losing record
Federer vs. good clay courters other than Nadal at RG: 5-10 losing record

Who is better at RG between the good clay courters other than Nadal:

My pick:
1. Federer,
2. Wawrinka/Djokovic (can't ignore the final beating Wawrinka gave to Djokovic)
3. Soderling/Thiem

 

[Towny]

I would be inclined to say Federer and Djokovic are on a somewhat similar level. Both clay careers have been hampered by playing against Nadal. That said, Djokovic deserves the edge given he's won more masters than Federer and has had more success against Nadal

 

[tennisaddict]

Not too much to differentiate between Fed and Djoker

Fed lesser in achievement relatively but was in a more competitive Nadal

 

[Eren]

I would be inclined to say Federer and Djokovic are on a somewhat similar level. Both clay careers have been hampered by playing against Nadal. That said, Djokovic deserves the edge given he's won more masters than Federer and has had more success against Nadal

This thread is about H2H on clay in general and at RG in particular (Perhaps I did not state this clearly in the OP). Looking at H2H (which most Fed haters use to downplay his achievements) I don't see how Djokovic deserves the edge? For what? Having a losing H2H against 2/3 remaining good clay courters he faced at RG? A winning H2H at RG against not even a single good clay courter, being it Wawrinka, Federer, Thiem (or Nadal).

 

[Eren]

Not too much to differentiate between Fed and Djoker

Fed lesser in achievement relatively but was in a more competitive Nadal

Please have a look at my reply to Towny's post. It's about H2H at RG vs. good clay courters (I know the title of my thread was poorly chosen, but I can't seem to change it).

 

[NoleFam]

Djokovic -- 82.93% at RG
Federer -- 80.46% at RG

The extra RU is trivial since Federer would have lost in those SFs just like Djokovic if he had to play Nadal in 2007 and 2008. Djokovic has been to the SF or better 9 times and Federer 8 times, Djokovic has a better winning percentage on clay, better overall head to head records and more big titles. Nothing here to suggest Federer > Djokovic on clay. This thread has been beaten to death over and over.

And Djokovic is 3-3 against Thiem on clay.

 

[Eren]

Djokovic -- 82.93% at RG
Federer -- 80.46% at RG

The extra RU is trivial since Federer would have lost in those SFs just like Djokovic if he had to play Nadal in 2007 and 2008. Djokovic has been to the SF or better 9 times and Federer 8 times, Djokovic has a better winning percentage on clay, better overall head to head records and more big titles. Nothing here to suggest Federer > Djokovic on clay. This thread has been beaten to death over and over.

And Djokovic is 3-3 against Thiem on clay.

Changed it thanks, did not know that it was 3-3.

About the bold, this thread is about Djokovic and Federer against good clay courters in general (>= 2 final appearances at RG) and at RG in particular. I chose the thread title poorly, but I can't change it. I have not seen anyone make the analysis of Fed/Djoke vs other good clay courters than Nadal at RG.

The stat you mentioned does not incorporate only good clay courters.

 

[helterskelter]

This thread is about H2H on clay in general and at RG in particular (Perhaps I did not state this clearly in the OP). Looking at H2H (which most Fed haters use to downplay his achievements) I don't see how Djokovic deserves the edge? For what? Having a losing H2H against 2/3 remaining good clay courters he faced at RG? A winning H2H at RG against not even a single good clay courter, being it Wawrinka, Federer, Thiem (or Nadal).

That's not what the thread title says, though. The title asks who is the second greatest claycourter in the Nadal era. I think that that is clearly Djokovic. His record at Roland Garros remains marginally behind Federer after today, but is ahead of Wawrinka, Soderling, or Thiem. His record in MS events is better than the others: 9 titles for Djokovic, 6 for Federer, 1 for Wawrinka, 0 for Thiem or Soderling. MS titles matter much more than head to head records. So, Djokovic is ahead of them all. Federer is clear #3, far further ahead of the other three than Djokovic is of him.

 

[Eren]

That's not what the thread title says, though. The title asks who is the second greatest claycourter in the Nadal era. I think that that is clearly Djokovic. His record at Roland Garros remains marginally behind Federer after today, but is ahead of Wawrinka, Soderling, or Thiem. His record in MS events is better than the others: 9 titles for Djokovic, 6 for Federer, 1 for Wawrinka, 0 for Thiem or Soderling. MS titles matter much more than head to head records. So, Djokovic is ahead of them all. Federer is clear #3, far further ahead of the other three than Djokovic is of him.

Yes I changed my post at the start and at the end. Now please answer the question no?

 

[NoleFam]

Changed it thanks, did not know that it was 3-3.

About the bold, this thread is about Djokovic and Federer against good clay courters in general (>= 2 final appearances at RG) and at RG in particular. I chose the thread title poorly, but I can't change it. I have not seen anyone make the analysis of Fed/Djoke vs other good clay courters than Nadal at RG.

The stat you mentioned does not incorporate only good clay courters.

Look, Federer is awesome but this topic has been beaten to death and I don't feel anything changed after this tournament. Federer is up there, probably top 7 in the Open Era on clay along with Djokovic but it's hard to try to rate him over Djokovic. Comparing them against good claycourters is different but then you left off Tsonga who Federer is 0-1 against and Djokovic is 2-0 against at RG. Federer also lost to Kuerten there in 2004 so that's 2 players instead of zero. I think you can try to argue they are equal but not that Federer is greater than him on clay.

 

[Towny]

This thread is about H2H on clay in general and at RG in particular (Perhaps I did not state this clearly in the OP). Looking at H2H (which most Fed haters use to downplay his achievements) I don't see how Djokovic deserves the edge? For what? Having a losing H2H against 2/3 remaining good clay courters he faced at RG? A winning H2H at RG against not even a single good clay courter, being it Wawrinka, Federer, Thiem (or Nadal).

If it is just about H2H and RG specifically, that's fine and I'm happy to stick to that but you can't determine the player who comes out on top as being the second greatest in the Nadal era without also looking at masters tournaments. You may not share my view.

The reality is, Soderling doesn't really belong in the same category as Federer and Djokovic. 2 RG finals, zero masters wins. Wawrinka is closer but is again quite far behind. Thiem has yet to win a masters. He may well win a slam tomorrow but it's unlikely.

In terms of head to head between Federer and Djokovic, they're even. In terms of the others:

Djokovic barely played Soderling. When they played, he won. Federer beat him at RG but also lost to him there. Can't say there's much in it here. Fed gets the edge purely because he's played him more.

Wawrinka: Fed gets the edge.

Thiem: Federer has never beaten Thiem on clay. Djokovic gets the edge here.

Murray (worth considering given a RG final with 3 SF plus 2 masters wins): Federer never played him. Djokovic is 6-1 against him, 2-0 at RG. Advantage Djokovic.

Then Djokovic is 17-7 against Nadal as opposed to 14-2. There Bo5 is a wash, but on Bo3, it is 10-6 vs 6-2. Significant edge to Djokovic.

Overall, Djokovic definitely better against Nadal and Murray (lack of sample for Fed). Fed better against Wawrinka and Soderling. Djokovic better against Thiem.

I give Djokovic the overall edge

 

[Eren]

Look, Federer is awesome but this topic has been beaten to death and I don't feel anything changed after this tournament. Federer is up there, probably top 6 or 7 in the Open Era on clay along with Djokovic but it's hard to try to rate him over Djokovic. Comparing them against good claycourters is different but then you left off Tsonga who Federer is 0-1 against and Djokovic is 2-0 against at RG. Federer also lost Kuerten there in 2004 so that's 2 players instead of zero. I think you can try to argue they are equal but not that Federer is greater than him on clay.

I should have added Kuerten and I will. That is a fair point. Thanks for the suggestion.

Nothing has changed after this tournament, you're absolutely right. I chose the thread title so poorly that this thread has already failed before it started.

My main point is not to prove that Federer is greater than Djokovic on clay. My main point is to prove that Djokovic in no way is a distinct number two at RG or Clay. But you're right about this topic being beaten to death.

 

[Pantera]

Statistics say Djokovic is as he has been more competitive v Nadal.

However Federer at his peak had to face Clay court peak Nadal pre 2010 all the time. Post 2011 Nadal was never quite as strong on clay which is when Peak djokovic played him most.

Its close to call. Nadal would be the best to answer.

 

[NoleFam]

I should have added Kuerten and I will. That is a fair point. Thanks for the suggestion.

Nothing has changed after this tournament, you're absolutely right. I chose the thread title so poorly that this thread has already failed before it started.

My main point is not to prove that Federer is greater than Djokovic on clay. My main point is to prove that Djokovic in no way is a distinct number two at RG or Clay. But you're right about this topic being beaten to death.

No worries and I didn't mean to make you feel bad about your thread. I now get the point you were trying to make and understand where you were going. Federer's record at RG is very impressive so you actually have a case. It's just these threads never end well and always turn into fan wars.

 

[Pantera]

No worries and I didn't mean to make you feel bad about your thread. I get the point you were trying to make and understand where you were going. Federer's record at RG is very impressive so you actually have a case. It's just these threads never end well and always turn into fan wars.

I maybe wrong but on this site at least the fan wars seem to have subsided a bit.

Im seeing alot of mutual respect between the 3 GOAT fanbases..

 

[NoleFam]

I maybe wrong but on this site at least the fan wars seem to have subsided a bit.

Im seeing alot of mutual respect between the 3 GOAT fanbases..

Maybe you are just visiting the good threads.

 

[King No1e]

Not too much to differentiate between Fed and Djoker

Fed lesser in achievement relatively but was in a more competitive Nadal

Debatable. Nadal was a clay beast post 2009 just as he was pre 2009. Both had to deal with Primedal.

 

[Eren]

Debatable. Nadal was a clay beast post 2009 just as he was pre 2009. Both had to deal with Primedal.

Yeah, I never got that point as well. Djokovic has faced 2006-2007-2008 Nadal at RG just like Federer.

 

[MeatTornado]

Debatable. Nadal was a clay beast post 2009 just as he was pre 2009. Both had to deal with Primedal.

2005-2008 Rafa vs 2010-2013 Rafa is just one of those things Fed & Nole fans will probably never agree on.

 

[King No1e]

Yeah, I never got that point as well. Djokovic has faced 2006-2007-2008 Nadal at RG just like Federer.

Also did Nadal not exist in 2010-13? 2012 was peak Claydal at the M1000s and up there with 08 at RG. Even his 2011 was underrated, the only player who beat him was peak GOATing Ultron.

 

[King No1e]

2005-2008 Rafa vs 2010-2013 Rafa is just one of those things Fed & Nole fans will probably never agree on.

Agreed.

 

[KINGROGER]

Djokovic slightly more accomplished due to inflation weak Nadal era of 14-16.
Federer the better player at peak.

 

[Incognito]

Federer 1 major + RU

 

[Sport]

I would be inclined to say Federer and Djokovic are on a somewhat similar level. Both clay careers have been hampered by playing against Nadal. That said, Djokovic deserves the edge given he's won more masters than Federer and has had more success against Nadal

And Thiem in the future will also be in this unfortunate "Nadal hampered my clay career" category. Federer, Djokovic and Thiem, all of them would be multiple RG winners if not for Nadal.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Really tough to say. Both are great clay court players even if people like to down play their achievements because of their lack of RG's. I think Federer was better at his absolute peak, but I think overall Djokovic is the better clay court player. Not just because of his better success against Nadal (granted this success came against a much weaker Nadal), but because he has achieved more on clay than Roger has.

 

[Sabrina]

Djokovic >= Federer >>>>>>>> The rest.