It's my turn to cherry pick. Nadal is 0-6 off clay against Fed in the last 5-6 years.
And 0-16 against Fedovic off clay in the same period.
It's my turn to cherry pick. Nadal is 0-6 off clay against Fed in the last 5-6 years.
Well you are right, Federer is starting to get old. Maybe he will stop dying his hair and let the beautiful gray show?
I am not sure why you are getting annoyed over this. I like Djokovic. But simple matter is outside Australia outdoors over 5 sets Nadal 8-3 Djokovic and outside of grass Nadal 9-1 Federer. All i am saying is for my money with those stats i would be backing Nadal over Djokovic and Federer anywhere but their pet slams.How generous of you for not including USO 2018. If statistics was the way to predict then Federer would not be leading your boy 6-1 after training him 23-10.
2011 Wimbledon was not outdoor but still Nadal lost. If an inform Nadal could not take out a Novak who was still low in confidence and coming back from a prolonged slump, that speaks of his chances against him there.
Outside Roland Garros in any condition, indoor or outdoor, Novak has a 5-3 h2h lead of Nadal. Deal with it.
How many have been b05? Only 2 one of which on grass. The other at an event Nadal has beaten federer 3 times. Outside of grass over bo5 it is Nadal 9-1 federer. That is why i would bet my money on Nadal outside of wimbledon.It's my turn to cherry pick. Nadal is 0-6 off clay against Fed in the last 5-6 years.
Nadal leads Federer on clay and outdoor hard something like 21-6 i think. I am puzzled why the anti-Nadal brigage, and there seems a lot of them which perhaps gives away true feelings, say 'off clay...' but object if Nadal fans say 'off grass...' . When i look at stats all i can see is Nadal is way more competitive v Federer and Djokovic outside their pet slams than they are v Nadal outside theirs. The combined h2h is Nadal 17-4 Djokerer. B03 it is a lot more competitive buy overall at the Majors Nadal is dominant.Off grass includes clay as well, nice cherry picking there.
Times change. Federer is undefeated vs Nadal off clay in the last 5-6 years winning their last 6 matches, which wasn't the case before.
He won 5 matches in a row at one point, which he had never done before.
Nadal was up 8-2 on outdoor HC at one point until Fed won the last 4 matches there.
Plus, Nadal doesn't play the way he used to trouble Federer in the past.
If Nadal does beat Fed in the future, it will be because Fed will be close to 40 years old, not because of the AO H2H.
If they met more at USO, by far and away Nadals 2nd best slam the h2h surely would favour Nadal more as he is a better decoturf hardcourt player. Djokovic better on plexi and green set. I do not think there is any argument about the above. Where i think there is an argument is on grass. At w 2018 had that match been played outdoors Nadal would have won no doubt given it was over 100f. We know Djokovic really struggles in the heat and sun. Obviously at W it usually is much cooler. We do not know for sure match up wise who is better on grass. Yes Djokovic better against the field but as an individual match up, in the same way federer struggles v djokovic on grass and Murray does v Nadal even though Federer and Murray are better on grass respectively, nadal v djokovic on grass at their best would be a toss up as Nadal is very good on grass unless up against a huge server.Problem with 9-6 is 7 out of 15 at Nadals strongest slam, which is disproportionate. Yes he does also lead Novak 2-1 at USO but the numbers would obviously be more in Novak's favor if there was a fair distribution of meeting at all slams.
Nonetheless Rafa did win 9 out of the 15 times they met so credit to him. Can only play on what surface you're on. Rafa is the best big match player ever, but I do think the two are even in a head to head sense across all 4 slams averaged out and this would reflect if they had met proportionally.
Just slams. I forgot when the started m1000 finals were 5 sets so cannot remember the statsAre you counting Masters or just slams?
2017 is hardly recent is it. I think one can only judge over a 12 month period and even that is probably not overly reliable given how often the winner of the Australian Open has not won another slam the rest of the year over the past 25 years.It's a match up. I also said "most" recent.
If they met more at USO, by far and away Nadals 2nd best slam the h2h surely would favour Nadal more as he is a better decoturf hardcourt player. Djokovic better on plexi and green set. I do not think there is any argument about the above. Where i think there is an argument is on grass. At w 2018 had that match been played outdoors Nadal would have won no doubt given it was over 100f. We know Djokovic really struggles in the heat and sun. Obviously at W it usually is much cooler. We do not know for sure match up wise who is better on grass. Yes Djokovic better against the field but as an individual match up, in the same way federer struggles v djokovic on grass and Murray does v Nadal even though Federer and Murray are better on grass respectively, nadal v djokovic on grass at their best would be a toss up as Nadal is very good on grass unless up against a huge server.
I am not sure why you are getting annoyed over this. I like Djokovic. But simple matter is outside Australia outdoors over 5 sets Nadal 8-3 Djokovic and outside of grass Nadal 9-1 Federer. All i am saying is for my money with those stats i would be backing Nadal over Djokovic and Federer anywhere but their pet slams.
Fact is, Fed won both of their slam matches off clay, so he has that in his favor in this debate.How many have been b05? Only 2 one of which on grass. The other at an event Nadal has beaten federer 3 times. Outside of grass over bo5 it is Nadal 9-1 federer. That is why i would bet my money on Nadal outside of wimbledon.
I agree. There isn't really much to go by in terms of H2H though, hence the 2017 AO Final was brought up.2017 is hardly recent is it. I think one can only judge over a 12 month period and even that is probably not overly reliable given how often the winner of the Australian Open has not won another slam the rest of the year over the past 25 years.
2005 Miami was where Fed beat Nadal best of 5, and Nadal beat Fed in MC 2006 and Rome 2006. Your point still stands.Just slams. I forgot when the started m1000 finals were 5 sets so cannot remember the stats
No, please. I just ate
The first four Grand Slam matches of Novak-Rafa took place before Nole found out that he had celiac disease, which hampered his potential. After eliminating his problem (thanks to the transition to a gluten-free diet), he began to dominate tennis and also began to control the rivalry with Rafa. Since 2011, Nole has won most of the mutual matches on the ATP Tour and also on the grandslams. He managed to turn the overall H2H, not the Grand Slam H2H, but what is not can be. More confrontations at AO, Wimbledon and USO and Rafa loses his lead in Grand Slam H2H.The best part of your post was the bit about the change of surface at USO which i was not aware of and is significant. You cannot say 9-6 is not the whole story. They are a year apart in age they are the exact same era. A direct comparison is easier than say with Federer. Most Rafa fans like Djokovic you know. That may change if Djokovic overtakes Nadal at m1000 level or Major level but currently Nadal fans are probably more smug if that is the right word.
As an aside the change in surface makes Murray a real threat this year. If he ever can sneak out a Major it will be in 4 weeks time. No wonder he was the first to commit there.
Novak managed to beat Bull at Wimbledon 2018 without his BH DTL shot (it should be noted that Nole returned back from his game crisis). If Nole having this shot at the time, would not help Nadal even the outdoor environment.If they met more at USO, by far and away Nadals 2nd best slam the h2h surely would favour Nadal more as he is a better decoturf hardcourt player. Djokovic better on plexi and green set. I do not think there is any argument about the above. Where i think there is an argument is on grass. At w 2018 had that match been played outdoors Nadal would have won no doubt given it was over 100f. We know Djokovic really struggles in the heat and sun. Obviously at W it usually is much cooler. We do not know for sure match up wise who is better on grass. Yes Djokovic better against the field but as an individual match up, in the same way federer struggles v djokovic on grass and Murray does v Nadal even though Federer and Murray are better on grass respectively, nadal v djokovic on grass at their best would be a toss up as Nadal is very good on grass unless up against a huge server.
What an effort from Tomic! That really was an impressive comeback win.
Yes maybe. Nadal v djokovic on grass both playing well i would argue is the match we would all love to see the most?Novak managed to beat Bull at Wimbledon 2018 without his BH DTL shot (it should be noted that Nole returned back from his game crisis). If Nole having this shot at the time, would not help Nadal even the outdoor environment.
Has Djokovic controlled the rivalry? After 2011 Nadal won 6 out of next 7. Only place i see Djokovic truly dominant is at the O2 and Australia over Nadal. If Djokovic truly had an edge he would not have lost arguably the most important m1000 match of all time with two sets being a bagel and breadstick. Also while many claim pre 2011 should be discounted, the flip side of that coin is Djokovic could never break the duopoly of Fedal until both declined. Nadal post 2010 a significantly slower player than pre 2010. These hypotheticals can run forever. However what we know for sure is 9 years on from 2011 Nadal still leads the Major count and m1000 count.The first four Grand Slam matches of Novak-Rafa took place before Nole found out that he had celiac disease, which hampered his potential. After eliminating his problem (thanks to the transition to a gluten-free diet), he began to dominate tennis and also began to control the rivalry with Rafa. Since 2011, Nole has won most of the mutual matches on the ATP Tour and also on the grandslams. He managed to turn the overall H2H, not the Grand Slam H2H, but what is not can be. More confrontations at AO, Wimbledon and USO and Rafa loses his lead in Grand Slam H2H.
Well if Djokovic was so confident of taking Nadal outdoors why did he insist the roof remain closed? If both players agree it could have been opened. As for outside the FO, Nadal has a winning h2h over Djokovic at the Us Open. Outside AO Djokovic does not have a winning H2h v Nadal outdoors at the Majors. I have never disputed Djokovic is a better bo3 set player than Nadal which is why i want him to win Cincinatti.Not annoyed. I am simply countering you when you said that only reason of Nadal losing Wim 2018 is because it was indoors. And if you want to give a stat that is outside of AO and outdoors, I am simply giving you another that is outside of FO.
It is academic now. Federer will be a mere shadow of what he was if we ever see him again. It is a tragedy we never got a USO final with both at or near their best. Ok some people do not like Ashe. But it is the biggest most atmospheric stadium in the best City of all the Majors. We have been robbed. Murray ruined it in 2008!!I agree. There isn't really much to go by in terms of H2H though, hence the 2017 AO Final was brought up.
AO i think does not help your argument, Nadal was spent after his SF. The AO needs to have semis on same day.Fact is, Fed won both of their slam matches off clay, so he has that in his favor in this debate.
The bolded bit is the key. And i agree. Nadal and Djokovic are the two greatest players of the last decade. It is therefore natural they are so close rivalry wise. They both are worthy successors to Federer who was the player of the decade before. We have these fan wars, not such a bad thing at the moment to take our minds off the reality of life currently, but at the end of the day these 3 are glorious champions on all surfaces who have been a pleasure to watch. As time marches on these intrinsic forensic debates will be long gone. All three will be revered and have statues at all the Majors.There are 2 slams Novak is better at and 2 Rafa in a H2H sense (and overall actually) . We agree on that. We can debate the hypothetical H2H back and forth, I could make similar arguments about the US Open as you did about Wimbledon but we won't agree so let's just accept the bolder facts. 2 where one is better and 2 where the other is. They've met exactly 3 times at 3 of the slams and 7 at the 4th.
If the slam where they've met 7 times is one of the two where one is better, then obviously it favors them in the H2H. I'm granting you your point about the USO(many would say it is debatable), but I'm granting it. Nonetheless there is no way around the fact that if the slam they met 7 times is the one where one is better (FO, USO for Nadal) or (AO, WIM) for Djokovic it will skew the H2H obviously in favor of the better player at that slam (yes im thinking of it in a H2H sense not just overall).
Think of it this way, the USO and WIM seem a bit contentious, each one of us thinks our guy could have led the H2H there if circumstances were different; it is sort of a wash. However the 7 meeting happened at RG, by far and away Rafas best slam. What if instead of 7 meeting there and 3 at RG, it was reversed? 7 at AO and 3 at RG. Would the H2H look the same?
Actually regarding statues, might be best they do not have any as in 150 years they may be deemed offensive for some reason, their dominance of the sport these past 20 years , in 150 years may be considered bullying and a bad thing!!!There are 2 slams Novak is better at and 2 Rafa in a H2H sense (and overall actually) . We agree on that. We can debate the hypothetical H2H back and forth, I could make similar arguments about the US Open as you did about Wimbledon but we won't agree so let's just accept the bolder facts. 2 where one is better and 2 where the other is. They've met exactly 3 times at 3 of the slams and 7 at the 4th.
If the slam where they've met 7 times is one of the two where one is better, then obviously it favors them in the H2H. I'm granting you your point about the USO(many would say it is debatable), but I'm granting it. Nonetheless there is no way around the fact that if the slam they met 7 times is the one where one is better (FO, USO for Nadal) or (AO, WIM) for Djokovic it will skew the H2H obviously in favor of the better player at that slam (yes im thinking of it in a H2H sense not just overall).
Think of it this way, the USO and WIM seem a bit contentious, each one of us thinks our guy could have led the H2H there if circumstances were different; it is sort of a wash. However the 7 meeting happened at RG, by far and away Rafas best slam. What if instead of 7 meeting there and 3 at RG, it was reversed? 7 at AO and 3 at RG. Would the H2H look the same?
Had Nadal played Djokovic at USO in 2017 and 2019 Nadal would have won and not lost more than a set each time. You may wish to airbrush tennis history pre 2014 but it is not how it works. Playing three times at a Major is more than the average amount players meet. Statistically Nadal wins 2 out every 3 matches he plays with Djokovic there. 2018 Nadal may have lost as final was indoors. Only reason he lost W 2018 was because it was indoors. Outside Australia in a best of 5 set format in outdoor conditions Nadal has an 8-2 h2h lead over Djokovic.
The bolded bit is the key. And i agree. Nadal and Djokovic are the two greatest players of the last decade. It is therefore natural they are so close rivalry wise. They both are worthy successors to Federer who was the player of the decade before. We have these fan wars, not such a bad thing at the moment to take our minds off the reality of life currently, but at the end of the day these 3 are glorious champions on all surfaces who have been a pleasure to watch. As time marches on these intrinsic forensic debates will be long gone. All three will be revered and have statues at all the Majors.
Well if Djokovic was so confident of taking Nadal outdoors why did he insist the roof remain closed? If both players agree it could have been opened. As for outside the FO, Nadal has a winning h2h over Djokovic at the Us Open. Outside AO Djokovic does not have a winning H2h v Nadal outdoors at the Majors. I have never disputed Djokovic is a better bo3 set player than Nadal which is why i want him to win Cincinatti.
Djokovic is on a 9 match winning streak against Nadal on HC. Before their '19 AO F match, every one of Rafans were sure Nadal was going to win. And he got the smack of his tennis life!
Everytime they meet at HC at Slams from now on, I'm sure Djokovic will smack Nadal just efficiently, if Rafa somehow manages to not lose 3 tiebreaks in an earlier round!
Nadal is likely to skip the FO. And there is a global pandemic so Nadal is not keen on playing tennis. Do not blame him do you?Didnt Djokovic defeat Nadal at Wim 2011 which was outdoor? And there is a difference between wanting the match to be indoor and insisting it to be indoor. Heck, given a choice even Federer would want to play Nadal indoors at Wimbledon. Who doesnt want to maximize their chances. Truth is that indoor or outdoor, it was a golden chance for Rafa to beat Novak who still hadn't regained his confidence and form after tough 18 months or so. And still he was unable to beat him.
Also if Nadal is so confident of winning against him outdoors why is he not participating in USO but is available for French?
We will learn alot in next three weeks. The threat to Nadal and Djokovic will be from the Next Gen, who while not threats when the pressure is on, with no crowds will definitely feel way more relaxed. As weird as this sounds for Nadal and even federer it probably helps them if Djokovic can dominate next two events. Keep the Next Gen frozen out. I am not predicting anything though until i see some tennis. With the first covid 19 case reported already today at the Bubble at Flushing i do have grave concerns.Yeah also my brain is fried that's 2 meetings at AO not 3 lol. Nonetheless Rafa has an argument to be more dominant at FO obviously than Novak at AO which would tip it in his favor if you assume USO and WIM are equal in a H2H sense. I think if equal meetings happened at all 4 slams then the slam H2H would be very close.
I think winning the slam race is more important than the H2H overall though all I do think Novak will lead the H2H and Rafa the slam H2H still at the end of their careers.
Not sure who will win the all important slam race!
Dude, all you are citing is Australia. Not one Nadal fan would claim Rafa is better there. We have been talking outside Australia! Also the one Major where Thiem should beat Nadal is Australia. It is the only event outside Wimbledon over 5 sets where Nadal cannot get the ball spitting to his BH. The bigger surprise was Thiem not beating Djokovic in the final. The Djokovic of today is way off his 2011 form. For 30 mins in the SF against Federer he was being outplayed and Federer was injured.Djokovic is on a 9 match winning streak against Nadal on HC. Before their '19 AO F match, every one of Rafans were sure Nadal was going to win. And he got the smack of his tennis life!
Everytime they meet at HC at Slams from now on, I'm sure Djokovic will smack Nadal just efficiently, if Rafa somehow manages to not lose 3 tiebreaks in an earlier round!
We will learn alot in next three weeks. The threat to Nadal and Djokovic will be from the Next Gen, who while not threats when the pressure is on, with no crowds will definitely feel way more relaxed. As weird as this sounds for Nadal and even federer it probably helps them if Djokovic can dominate next two events. Keep the Next Gen frozen out. I am not predicting anything though until i see some tennis. With the first covid 19 case reported already today at the Bubble at Flushing i do have grave concerns.
If crowds are absent next season im not sure Nadal will be winning Majors. He feeds off the crowd even when they are against him. Djokovic also seems to feed off the energy of the crowd he loves giving it back to the crowd if they are against him. This is one aspect i think is crucial. Tennis in an empty stadium will be so weird for the players. Some will handle it way better than others. I feel we have been robbed a Djokodal battle royal this year. I felt they were going to have an epic rivalry, with thiem challenging both. Really disappointing.Maybe yeah if they can be locked out heading into RG then their confidence will be down and Rafa will obviously be the huge favorite there. then further loss of confidence for them heading into next year as things resume a more normal schedule possibly.
At some point they well overtake djokodal but confidence is key as to whether it will be a few months or a couple years.
Nadal is likely to skip the FO. And there is a global pandemic so Nadal is not keen on playing tennis. Do not blame him do you?
On grass Federer would not care indoors our outdoors as he considers his best game on grass better than anyone. 2011 is the only year Djokovic has had Nadal's number outside Australia. After that Nadal won 6 out of next 7. Maybe 2015-2016 Djokovic had a streak but Nadal was being beaten by all the top guys. Since 2016 ended Nadal has been the dominant player. YE1 2 out of 3 years.
As it happens if Nadal plays FO given how bad covid cases apparently are in Europe ill be disappointed as for me he would have shown disrespect to the USO. I agree with Djokovic saying he felt an obligation to play. A lot of people are working damn hard to get the event on. If Nadal skips FO then all good as obviously it means he is reluctant to leave home in a pandemic. If he plays FO ill be very disappointed in him. If he then won no.20 ill be honest and say it would mean little to me as i dont think a 4 time defending champion of any event should skip it to increase chances at another event. As for thanking Federer last year, why? When did Federer beat Djokovic? Or do you mean the WTF? If so it was Thiem who did for Nole not Roger.If he is going to play French while skipping USO what is your argument gonna be?
And you may say whatever you want, irrespective of playing on their best surface or not, top players would want to play in conditions that give them max advantage.
Finally Novak's streak against Nadal started after USO 2013 and not 2015 as you suggest. And so convenient of you to quote Nadal's 2015-16 weak seasons but include 2017 as a great year for him when Novak was absent. 2019 was a super close year between the two with only 600 points separating them. Infact Nadal should thank Federer for doing him a favor.
As it happens if Nadal plays FO given how bad covid cases apparently are in Europe ill be disappointed as for me he would have shown disrespect to the USO. I agree with Djokovic saying he felt an obligation to play. A lot of people are working damn hard to get the event on. If Nadal skips FO then all good as obviously it means he is reluctant to leave home in a pandemic. If he plays FO ill be very disappointed in him. If he then won no.20 ill be honest and say it would mean little to me as i dont think a 4 time defending champion of any event should skip it to increase chances at another event. As for thanking Federer last year, why? When did Federer beat Djokovic? Or do you mean the WTF? If so it was Thiem who did for Nole not Roger.
London is not the nicest of places for Nole and after Wimbledon to have to face hostility every match, and some of it v Thiem was pretty bad is tough mentally for him. Anyway would he want YE1 or the AO which he got a couple of months later? I think the no.1 ranking is icing on the cake but players value winning events more.![]()
Rafael Nadal Clinches Year-End No. 1 ATP Ranking For Fifth Time | Nitto ATP Finals
Rafael Nadal has clinched the year-end No. 1 ATP Ranking for a fifth time. At 33, Nadal is the oldest player to finish year-end No. 1 in the history of the ATP Rankings (since 1973).www.nittoatpfinals.com
Read first paragraph. Although Novak still had to win the title which I will admit, like you have done graciously, was not a lock.