Seles should be considered the womens GOAT

[insideoutforehanders]

I know the women's GOAT debate is mostly between Serena and Graf, with Navratilova, Evert, and Court receiving some less proportioned consideration. Lenglen, Connolly, Wills record wise should be strongly considered but don't seem to be. All these are amazing players with amazing records. But the real GOAT is Monica Seles. Without the stabbing it is obvious she wins minimum 25 slams, and maybe as much as 30. And is world #1 a minimum of 8 years from 91 to 98. And would have had the toughest competition ever with prime Graf, who is as good or better as prime Evert who Navratilova faced, but a way deeper field overall as well than Navratilova ever had. Serena had by far the toughest overall field ever 99-2008 but very weak the tail end of her career when she won many slams after wasting some of her prime she was capable of always dominating even given the strongest ever field but didn't always perform up to potential for periods. Now the one drawback is she likely wins Wimbledon only 0-1 times, but Federer would have been considered the GOAT by most until atleast 2022 even if he had never won the French. So Seles is the real womens tennis GOAT.

 

[jrepac]

We have no way of knowing that. I think she would have won more slams, certainly. Not so sure about 25, as others were emerging.

 

[toth]

One of the best for sure
Just my opinion

 

[buscemi]

I think she wins 18-20 Majors without the stabbing while Graf wins 17-19. Overall, this would give them very similar statute to Evert and Navratilova in terms of singles success.

 

[Dropshot777]

Can’t really be proven though

 

[insideoutforehanders]

I think she wins 18-20 Majors without the stabbing while Graf wins 17-19. Overall, this would give them very similar statute to Evert and Navratilova in terms of singles success.

But both would have played in a tougher era than Navratilova/Evert considering they each have an atleast equally tough top opponent, but outside of Hana the Evert and Navratilova era was a total wasteland after Austin fell off which already had happened completely by early 82. Sanchez, Sabatina, Novotna, Pierce, Capriati, young pre prime Hingis, Martinez aren't amazing but are all way better than Shriver, Turnbull, Kohde Kilsch, Hanika, Rinaldi, Jaeger, etc....Sukova was the best of the rest after Hana probably and even she is weaker than every single person I just named, and only on par or a bit above with say Fernandez who I didn't even mention. Atleast Evert had a decent field when on top in the 70s (minus clay) but never Martina. Look at all the 83 slam finals, semis, and quarters, they look more like draws of a tier 3 tournament Evert or Navratilova happened to enter than a slam. Minus the US Open which had an Evert vs Navratilova final, and even that was a lame match.

 

[buscemi]

But both would have played in a tougher era than Navratilova/Evert considering they each have an atleast equally tough top opponent, but outside of Hana the Evert and Navratilova era was a total wasteland after Austin fell off which already had happened completely by early 82. Sanchez, Sabatina, Novotna, Pierce, Capriati, young pre prime Hingis, Martinez aren't amazing but are all way better than Shriver, Turnbull, Kohde Kilsch, Hanika, Rinaldi, etc....Atleast Evert had a decent field when on top in the 70s (minus clay) but never Martina.

But with Evert especially, you need to take into account the missed French Opens and Australian Opens. Her Major haul could have been higher if she played a full slate.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

But with Evert especially, you need to take into account the missed French Opens and Australian Opens. Her Major haul could have been higher if she played a full slate.

This is true. The thing is if people take into account that (Chris would have way more slams than Martina had everyone played Aussie and French in the 70s), and the quality of field there whole careers, and how many slams Chris lost via Martina vs Martina losing via Chris (again a ton more for Chris) Evert should 200% rank higher than Martina, atleast in singles, even with peak Martina of 82-84 likely having the higher overall peak. Yet most just rank Martina higher anyway, which is why I have a hard time giving that much consideration. Since even the people who make that valid point clearly don't factor it into their actual rankings on Martina vs Chris, thus by extension makes no sense to do for Chris or Martina vs anyone else either.

 

[Chris Wilson]

I don't think Seles would have reached that many, to be honest. Certainly in '93 she probably would take the French, but not the others, and maybe in '94 she would have picked up a few, but none of those wins would affect Graf all that much. It's impossible to know, of course, but the problem with Seles is that she had no variety, and once people could hit with her (as was increasingly the case in the mid-'90s), she tended to falter. She was never going to be as fit or quick as Graf or many of the later big hitters, and her lack of a plan B really showed in her later match-ups against the Williamses and Hingis. (I realize that her fitness after '99 wasn't the best, but there's no reason to think her fitness would have been any better without the stabbing.) As for Graf, by '95 Graf definitely had picked up her game and gotten out of her '91-'92 doldrums, so I don't think Seles would have had too much effect on her. Seles would always have a slight edge on slow courts and Graf on faster courts, but I don't think the numbers would be affected much.

 

[RS]

Is this trolling or real?

No dig I just can't tell.

 

[buscemi]

I don't think Seles would have reached that many, to be honest. Certainly in '93 she probably would take the French, but not the others, and maybe in '94 she would have picked up a few, but none of those wins would affect Graf all that much. It's impossible to know, of course, but the problem with Seles is that she had no variety, and once people could hit with her (as was increasingly the case in the mid-'90s), she tended to falter. She was never going to be as fit or quick as Graf or many of the later big hitters, and her lack of a plan B really showed in her later match-ups against the Williamses and Hingis. (I realize that her fitness after '99 wasn't the best, but there's no reason to think her fitness would have been any better without the stabbing.) As for Graf, by '95 Graf definitely had picked up her game and gotten out of her '91-'92 doldrums, so I don't think Seles would have had too much effect on her. Seles would always have a slight edge on slow courts and Graf on faster courts, but I don't think the numbers would be affected much.

Seles was developing good variety as a new 19 year-old when she was stabbed. She was showing an increasing willingness to come into net with good results, and she was playing with her court positioning, allowing her to play more defensively from behind the baseline or step into the court and be much more aggressive (something she did to great effect in the 1993 AO final against Graf).

When Seles returned from the stabbing, she was much more of a one dimensional baseline ball basher. But the Seles we would have seen without the stabbing would have had many more options at her disposal.

 

[Pheasant]

When you are at that high of a level, you cannot afford to miss 2 years during your prime. I also won’t even pretend to understand what kind of trauma that an on-court stabbing can inflict on a teenage girl.

Unfortunately, we won’t ever know what Seles would have done. She was still improving at the time of her stabbing. She had recently beefed up her serve; enough to make a Wimbledon final at age 18; despite missing her entire age-17 year on grass.

That said, I cannot see placing Seles above Martina, Serena, Graf, Evert, and Court. I just can’t see it. I can see an argument for Seles being ranked 6th.

I have Seles somewhere in the 6-8 range.

 

[Chris Wilson]

Seles was developing good variety as a new 19 year-old when she was stabbed. She was showing an increasing willingness to come into net with good results, and she was playing with her court positioning, allowing her to play more defensively from behind the baseline or step into the court and be much more aggressive (something she did to great effect in the 1993 AO final against Graf).

When Seles returned from the stabbing, she was much more of a one dimensional baseline ball basher. But the Seles we would have seen without the stabbing would have had many more options at her disposal.

Nah, I don't agree. Seles wasn't developing any variety, and certainly wasn't developing the ability to come forward in 1993 or before. She was always willing to hit the swinging put away volley when she got the chance, but she wasn't ever intending to come forward to net for volleys. (Look at Wimbe '92; her net game wasn't present.) Seles was always pretty good on defense in the early '90s; if she got to the ball, she could usually do something remarkably effective with it, but this just became harder and harder against power hitters. Against Graf, Seles' defense was pretty effective because the slice backhand often allowed Seles to get back to neutral with a single defensive shot to Graf's backhand. That tactic would never work against Hingis, the Williamses, or the other power hitters.

Anyway, none of this is intended as a knock on Seles; I just don't think it's accurate to say that she would've walked the field or that she was somehow developing a multifaceted game. For that matter, for all the talk, Graf (who volleyed far better than Seles) also never developed any comfort coming forward, except for the easy put away, or otherwise ever showed any real variety in her game. Both were baseliners through and through. Seles kept switching to bigger and more powerful rackets when she came back because the power game was the only real game she had. And as for the 1993 AO final, it was a great final, but remember that the AO in '93 was a slow surface; they sped it up only at the end of the '90s to try to help Rafter. I still think Seles was stronger than Graf, generally, on slow surfaces, and Graf was stronger than Seles, generally, on faster surfaces. Just my opinions.

All told, I think Seles would've picked up the French in '93, and probably maybe the AO and FO in '94. From '95 on, it was going to be tougher and tougher for her.

 

[buscemi]

Nah, I don't agree. Seles wasn't developing any variety, and certainly wasn't developing the ability to come forward in 1993 or before. She was always willing to hit the swinging put away volley when she got the chance, but she wasn't ever intending to come forward to net for volleys. (Look at Wimbe '92; her net game wasn't present.)

Seles herself has said this was a big point of emphasis after the 1992 Wimbledon final, and I don't ever think I've seen her come to net as much as she did in her 1993 AO SF with Sabatini (and at a place where net approaches were tougher than at Wimbledon and the U.S. Open).

 

[pat200]

Logic isn't some people's strongest traits...

 

[Pheasant]

I think she wins 18-20 Majors without the stabbing while Graf wins 17-19. Overall, this would give them very similar statute to Evert and Navratilova in terms of singles success.

This is a reasonable take. From ages 16 1/2 to 19, Seles shrank Graf’s slam lead from 9-0 to 11-8. With a 4 1/2 year age advantage, it’s reasonable to think that Seles could have gained another 4 slam titles on Graf(less than 1 a year for the 4 1/2 year age gap).

I personally have Seles ranked in the 6-8 range. I think that I can move her to #6, given the fact that she had done something that nobody else in history had ever done before—- was 2-time defending champ at the USO, and 3-time defending champ at the WTA finals, AO, and FO; all at the same time! At the time of her stabbing, she was 67-1 in her last 68 matches at the 5 biggest tournaments of the year. That kind of peak is insane. She earns a #6 spot in my rankings. But I won’t argue with anybody that moves her a bit higher.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Who knows. Obviously Monica would have won many more slams before Hingis, Lindsay, Venus, Serena + Mary began improving/debuting. But didn’t Monica’s beloved father get the cancer diagnosis right around 1993? What if that brought on the stress eating + bingeing/purging disorder behavior? Again, who knows?

What if Mo Connolly wasn’t involved in a tragic accident at the very height of her young career?

What if The Reverend didn’t get pregnant in 1971 or 1973 or 1977?

What if Chris, Martina, BJK + Evonne never played team tennis and played the entire tour year round?

What if Hingis converted one of those match points at the 2002 Aussie Open final? Would she have retired later that year?

Who knows.

We never, ever will.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

At minimum Seles should be 6th in the Open Era over King who was never a dominant player, despite an impressive career, including 12 slams and 6 Wimbledons. But despite that her only dominant year ever was 72, and that was only since Court missed almost the entire year. Contrast that to Seles who dominated 3 years over Graf and Navratilova. So facing 2 GOATs she totally dominated for 3 years vs King who had her prime (65-73) in a much weaker period where Court was her only real competition, and still almost never dominated, and won atleast half her slams while Court was away or just back from a year plus layoff and not back to normal yet. Even if you aren't one who factors in what it's at all, Seles should be higher. Atleast in singles, I could see making a case for King based on her combined singles and doubles.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Who knows. Obviously Monica would have won many more slams before Hingis, Lindsay, Venus, Serena + Mary began improving/debuting. But didn’t Monica’s beloved father get the cancer diagnosis right around 1993? What if that brought on the stress eating + bingeing/purging disorder behavior? Again, who knows?

What if Mo Connolly wasn’t involved in a tragic accident at the very height of her young career?

What if The Reverend didn’t get pregnant in 1971 or 1973 or 1977?

What if Chris, Martina, BJK + Evonne never played team tennis and played the entire tour year round?

What if Hingis converted one of those match points at the 2002 Aussie Open final? Would she have retired later that year?

Who knows.

We never, ever will.

Hingis retired due to a bad foot injury. Not her loss at the 2002 Australian Open. She even sued the sneaker company that badly damaged her feet and forced her into early retirement. Although the foot injury may have caused her loss in that 2002 Australian Open final too.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

Or the foot /shoes weren’t so great, but not career ending. And Venus/Serena/Linds/JenCap were viewed as career ending in 2002? Or preventing the dominance that she felt entitled to post 1997…

 

[Mustard]

If you ever get a time machine, who is tempted to go to Hamburg on 30 April 1993, or before, and stop Gunter Parche? It would certainly change tennis history in so many ways.

Parche had been hanging around watching Monica Seles practice for days prior, with Karolj Seles (i.e. Monica's dad and coach) even approaching Parche at one point, but Parche did not respond. Monica remembered that Parche wore an Arthur Ashe baseball cap. On the day of the match against Magdalena Maleeva, Karolj was ill and in bed back at the hotel (and would be diagnosed with prostate cancer a week later), so Monica had no relatives or even entourage in the crowd at the time that she was stabbed.

Monica had waited until the last minute to play Hamburg in 1993, choosing it over Barcelona. Parche said that if Seles had gone to Barcelona, he'd have tried his attack at the French Open in Paris. Parche had been watching Seles, with increasing resentment, ever since the 1990 Berlin final, when Seles ended a huge Graf winning streak, in Germany too!

 

[BauerAlmeida]

What happened to her is tragic, but unfortunately, it doesn't work that way; we cannot guess what would have happened.

Muster was hit by a drunk driver, maybe he would have achieved far more without that happening, but we'll never know.

 

[Mustard]

What happened to her is tragic, but unfortunately, it doesn't work that way; we cannot guess what would have happened.

Muster was hit by a drunk driver, maybe he would have achieved far more without that happening, but we'll never know.

The difference with Seles is that the attack was deliberately done, by a fan of Graf, to get Graf back to world number 1. That was Parche's aim all along.

Muster was hurt when a drunk driver, who had been having some issues in his personal life, crashed his car into Muster's parked car when he had just opened the boot (aka trunk) of the car on his way to a post-midnight snack. There were 3 other people with him at the time, i.e. his coach Ronnie Leitgeb, photographer Wolfgang Ritschke, and driver Michelle Boyd. Boyd and Ritschke were still in the car, I believe.

 

[Deleted member 827468]

we often have to be on the alert on the streets or somewhere else coz nobody knows when some drunk fool or a wacko shows up, johnny gaudreau (nhl player) also was hit by drunk driver one year ago and it was fatally

 

[socallefty]

Whether if it is a tragic accident, a deliberate criminal act that derailed a player’s career or more mundane injuries, no one gets credit for hypothetical achievements in the real world. The world is not fair and ultimately credit goes to those who actually accomplished things in real life even if they had some luck to help them.

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

I know the women's GOAT debate is mostly between Serena and Graf, with Navratilova, Evert, and Court receiving some less proportioned consideration. Lenglen, Connolly, Wills record wise should be strongly considered but don't seem to be. All these are amazing players with amazing records. But the real GOAT is Monica Seles. Without the stabbing it is obvious she wins minimum 25 slams, and maybe as much as 30. And is world #1 a minimum of 8 years from 91 to 98. And would have had the toughest competition ever with prime Graf, who is as good or better as prime Evert who Navratilova faced, but a way deeper field overall as well than Navratilova ever had. Serena had by far the toughest overall field ever 99-2008 but very weak the tail end of her career when she won many slams after wasting some of her prime she was capable of always dominating even given the strongest ever field but didn't always perform up to potential for periods. Now the one drawback is she likely wins Wimbledon only 0-1 times, but Federer would have been considered the GOAT by most until atleast 2022 even if he had never won the French. So Seles is the real womens tennis GOAT.

I vividly remember that stabbing. It was such a sad day for tennis...

 

[bluetrain4]

Look, I was a huge Seles fan - more so than Graf (though I've really come to appreciate Graf over time). And what happened to her was insanely tragic - stabbed really at her peak, which leads to a mountain of "what ifs". But, I just don't think you can give players credit for "what ifs" and you have to base GOAT on actual accomplishment. I know that getting stabbed on court is an extraordinary thing to keep a player from having their full career (unlike, say, a common injury like a back or shoulder or knee). But I still think you can't ascribe "phantom" wins and titles to Seles because of it.

Seles still has her place in history and is still among the ATGs of the game.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

Well put, bluetrain! I forgot to add Muster to that long list.

also two other big what if’s…Tracy + Bjorn

What if Austin’s body never breaks down?

What if Bjorn doesn’t walk away from the game at age 25?

 

[insideoutforehanders]

For what it is worth both Navratilova and Evert have said word for word numerous times Seles would have been the GOAT without the stabbing. Both also have said more than once she would have broken Court's slam record.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

In no universe Seles wins 25 slams especially not without winning Wimbledon as you yourself say. She had 8 at the time of stabbing meaning she would still need 3 a year in 1994-1998 on top of winning the French and USO in 1993. No way does this ever happen especially not with Hingis emerging. No player in the history of the game ever had 8 consecutive years with three slams. 30 is even more absurd.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Well put, bluetrain! I forgot to add Muster to that long list.

also two other big what if’s…Tracy + Bjorn

What if Austin’s body never breaks down?

What if Bjorn doesn’t walk away from the game at age 25?

I love Borg but that was his own fault.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

In no universe Seles wins 25 slams especially not without winning Wimbledon as you yourself say. She had 8 at the time of stabbing meaning she would still need 3 a year in 1994-1998 on top of winning the French and USO in 1993. No way does this ever happen especially not with Hingis emerging. No player in the history of the game ever had 8 consecutive years with three slams. 30 is even more absurd.

Hingis is an exceptional player but unfortunately, mainly due to her size, struggles with any power players who moves decently. Even Capriati a B power player owned her once she was no longer 200 pounds.

And why would slams end at 98. As late as 2001-2003 a player as mediocre as Capriati neatly won 5 slams (won 3 and was points from winning 02 French and 03 US open).

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

I know the women's GOAT debate is mostly between Serena and Graf, with Navratilova, Evert, and Court receiving some less proportioned consideration. Lenglen, Connolly, Wills record wise should be strongly considered but don't seem to be. All these are amazing players with amazing records. But the real GOAT is Monica Seles. Without the stabbing it is obvious she wins minimum 25 slams, and maybe as much as 30. And is world #1 a minimum of 8 years from 91 to 98. And would have had the toughest competition ever with prime Graf, who is as good or better as prime Evert who Navratilova faced, but a way deeper field overall as well than Navratilova ever had. Serena had by far the toughest overall field ever 99-2008 but very weak the tail end of her career when she won many slams after wasting some of her prime she was capable of always dominating even given the strongest ever field but didn't always perform up to potential for periods. Now the one drawback is she likely wins Wimbledon only 0-1 times, but Federer would have been considered the GOAT by most until atleast 2022 even if he had never won the French. So Seles is the real womens tennis GOAT.

Yet another "woulda, coulda, shoulda" thread about Seles being some GOAT player. Historical record: at her undeniable peak of her game, she was utterly crushed by Graf in the 1992 Wimbledon final; Seles was like a new junior stepping on a court for the 1st time, and had no answers for the truly superior Graf, nor would Seles ever return to a Wimbledon final. She is one of many of history's majors winners who was incompetent at the event, and if one cannot win Wimbledon, obviously, she was never going to position herself to win the Grand Slam, the defining achievement of a true GOAT.

The "woulda, coulda, shoulda" narrative also assumes Graf was not going to win more majors, when that is laughable on its face, just as its equally laughable for some of the worst Seles fans to argue she was going to be some threat (in other words, win) at the majors into the early 2000s, where her game was clearly not designed for the sport's new generation of superior players.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

You do realize that Jennifer Capriati was just points away from REACHING THE FINALS of the 2002 French + 2003 US Open.
She was literally a round away from winning the events. She never even made the finals. And Jen never got as overweight as Monica did, so I wouldn’t bring that up either. Speaking of 2002, This thread is whack, Dianne.

 

[buscemi]

Yet another "woulda, coulda, shoulda" thread about Seles being some GOAT player. Historical record: at her undeniable peak of her game, she was utterly crushed by Graf in the 1992 Wimbledon final; Seles was like a new junior stepping on a court for the 1st time, and had no answers for the truly superior Graf, nor would Seles ever return to a Wimbledon final. She is one of many of history's majors winners who was incompetent at the event, and if one cannot win Wimbledon, obviously, she was never going to position herself to win the Grand Slam, the defining achievement of a true GOAT.

For me, it's kind of crazy to say Seles was incompetent at Wimbledon when she made the final at 18 by beating Navratilova in the SF. Sure, Graf was always going to be kryptonite for her on the green stuff, as we saw in the final. But, with the improvements Seles was making to her serve, net game, and court positioning at the time of the stabbing, she would have been a real threat on grass, especially if Graf went out early or missed the event, like in 1994 and 1997-1998.

 

[Mustard]

In no universe Seles wins 25 slams

Well, there is. If Seles continues winning 3 majors per year from 1993-1996, that's 19 majors. Then Hingis becomes a big threat and it depends what happens then. If Seles deals with it well, she could certainly get to 25 majors by the end of her career.

Seles was a different person post-stabbing. She just was. She was no longer tennis, tennis, tennis and with a giggly outlook, but more complex and with a certain cynicism that she didn't have before.

 

[Mustard]

For me, it's kind of crazy to say Seles was incompetent at Wimbledon when she made the final at 18 by beating Navratilova in the SF.

Yeah, it's really bizarre. "She would never win Wimbledon", they say, after an 18-year-old Seles beat Navratilova in the 1992 Wimbledon semi final, and 1993 Wimbledon was hot and dry all tournament with high bouncing balls with Courier close to winning the men's singles that year. And with Seles winning the 1993 Australian Open with an obviously improved serve.

 

[Martin J]

Well, there is. If Seles continues winning 3 majors per year from 1993-1996, that's 19 majors. Then Hingis becomes a big threat and it depends what happens then. If Seles deals with it well, she could certainly get to 25 majors by the end of her career.

That's assuming that Graf turns into a defeatist and never starts working on the improvements which could help her to handle the Seles storm, but it's hard for me to accept that a goat level talent would fade away just like that. I would love to see the patterns Graf would try to develop in order to match Monika (who started to beat her regularly in the biggest tournaments), but the attack robed us (fans) of what could've been the best or the second best rivalry in women's tennis.

Seles was a different person post-stabbing. She just was. She was no longer tennis, tennis, tennis and with a giggly outlook, but more complex and with a certain cynicism that she didn't have before.

Yep, I've noticed that not many people understand the biggest difference between the pre and post stabbing Seles. She lacked the focus and determination and set a different priorities. Before, it was all about tennis; after, she explored different aspects of life much more and simply slowed down when it comes to the tennis ambitions. At least that's how I saw it.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

I think anyone that was watching tennis in the 1990s understood the differences in Monica, besides the obvious. She really was a much different player after that amazing and spectacular comeback in 1995/early ‘96. Not only was she not tennis, tennis, tennis, she also seemed happier in some ways. Perhaps she not only had a different outlook on life, but she might have known her father’s days were numbered and she wanted to enjoy the time she had left with him? Who knows. But her focus and killer instinct seemed a little less intense 1996 onwards, after the Australian. Judging just from the 1995 Canadian + USO it was the same old Monica, just not match tough or quite fit yet. But I never really saw that player again after Oz ‘96. It was really frustrating up to the 2000 YEC finale against Hingis and then I became resigned to the fact that she wasn’t ever winning a major ever again. But that 6-0 middle set against Raunchie at Roland Garros ‘98 (after thrashing Hingis the way she always should have). I had so much hope.

 

[buscemi]

That's assuming that Graf turns into a defeatist and never starts working on the improvements which could help her to handle the Seles storm, but it's hard for me to accept that a goat level talent would fade away just like that. I would love to see the patterns Graf would try to develop in order to match Monika (who started to beat her regularly in the biggest tournaments), but the attack robed us (fans) of what could've been the best or the second best rivalry in women's tennis.

I don't think that Graf turns defeatist, but consider her mindset in our timeline vs. an alternate timeline. In our timeline, Graf knows her 1994 struggles were due to her injuries and enters the offseason confident that putting in hard work and retooling some of her game will take her back to the top.

In an alternate timeline, it's at least possible that Seles wins 3 Majors again in 1993 and then 3 or even possibly 4 Majors in 1994. Graf enters the offseason knowing that Seles has dominated the game from 1991-1994. Now, she would clearly question whether her hard work and retooling would be enough to retake the top spot and start snatching Majors again.

Personally, I think Graf still makes the push and we get some epic matches between a rejuvenated Graf and a better version of Seles than we ever saw. But, again, it wouldn't shock me if Graf would have felt defeated at the end of 1994 if she hadn't turned things around by then.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Graf was still in the mix and Hingis was getting strong and was a nightmare matchup for Monica. Also her father would have got sick which would always have had a negative impact on her game. I seriously can’t see how she would ever win 25 slams (even 20 I don’t see).

 

[Mustard]

Graf was still in the mix and Hingis was getting strong and was a nightmare matchup for Monica. Also her father would have got sick which would always have had a negative impact on her game. I seriously can’t see how she would ever win 25 slams (even 20 I don’t see).

Seles had her wins over Hingis, like their 1998 French Open semi final, ending Hingis' run of 5 straight major finals (4 of which Hingis won).

A timeline where the stabbing doesn't happen is just a different Seles, and a different trajectory altogether.

 

[buscemi]

A timeline where the stabbing doesn't happen is just a different Seles, and a different trajectory altogether.

Yeah, I feel like Seles's movement was a lot worse after the stabbing, which is what really hurt her against Hingis.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Seles had her wins over Hingis, like their 1998 French Open semi final, ending Hingis' run of 5 straight major finals (4 of which Hingis won).

A timeline where the stabbing doesn't happen is just a different Seles, and a different trajectory altogether.

Hingis would always have been a tough matchup for her let’s be real here. Was obvious that you would cite now one of the few wins against her. Overall it was 5-15.

 

[Mustard]

Hingis would always have been a tough matchup for her let’s be real here. Was obvious that you would cite now one of the few wins against her. Overall it was 5-15.

As buscemi said, Seles' poorer movement hurt her against Hingis.

 

[BTURNER]

Look, I was a huge Seles fan - more so than Graf (though I've really come to appreciate Graf over time). And what happened to her was insanely tragic - stabbed really at her peak, which leads to a mountain of "what ifs". But, I just don't think you can give players credit for "what ifs" and you have to base GOAT on actual accomplishment. I know that getting stabbed on court is an extraordinary thing to keep a player from having their full career (unlike, say, a common injury like a back or shoulder or knee). But I still think you can't ascribe "phantom" wins and titles to Seles because of it.

Seles still has her place in history and is still among the ATGs of the game.

I agree. The real problem I have, is that you can't 'give' someone a title they might have earned in your alternate history, without taking it away from someone who actually proved themselves worthy, showed up, and yes played all those matches required to earn it. We can't consider Seles to be the women's goat, without depriving others of their hard-fought grand slam singles titles.

I find that incredibly dismissive and arrogant even in hypothetical game playing world we have here.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Yeah, it's really bizarre. "She would never win Wimbledon", they say, after an 18-year-old Seles beat Navratilova in the 1992 Wimbledon semi final

In that 1992 match, Navratilova was 35 years old, and had won what would be her last Wimbledon title in 1990. She was not the tall mountain to climb as some would want to sell it in order to inflate Seles' victory in '92. Moreover, GOAT Graf was simply a far different opponent (and defending champion) for Seles at that event, one who clearly had a tailor-made expansive game to nullify all of Seles' tricks, hence the completely lopsided final score. At this point, there's no more excuses one can make to play "well, she coulda". Seles was utterly outplayed for a reason, not luck, timing or any other imagined issue.

That's assuming that Graf turns into a defeatist and never starts working on the improvements which could help her to handle the Seles storm, but it's hard for me to accept that a goat level talent would fade away just like that.

Agreed, but you must remember: for the worst of Seles' fans to even entertain the notion that Graf would turn into a defeatist, or somehow not find answers to Seles' game is absurd and more of the fantasy world some Seles fans permanently occupy. Seles was not invincible and if anyone was going to turn the tables on her, it would be Graf, one of the true GOAT players.

 

[Mustard]

In that 1992 match, Navratilova was 35 years old

She was 35 and determined to win a 10th Wimbledon singles title.

, and had won what would be her last Wimbledon title in 1990.

Just 2 years earlier.

Moreover, GOAT Graf was simply a far different opponent (and defending champion) for Seles at that event, one who clearly had a taiolr-made expansive game to nullify all of Seles' tricks, hence the completely lopsided final score. At this point, there's no more excuses one can make to play "well, she coulda". Seles was utterly outplayed for a reason, not luck, timing or any other imagined issue.

The 1992 Wimbledon final was stop-start because of regular rain delays, especially in the second set. It didn't feel like "utterly outplayed" because they were on and off the court so often.

Agreed, but you must remember: for the worst of Seles' fans to even entertain the notion that Graf would turn into a defeatist, or somehow not find answers to Seles' game is absurd and more of the fantasy world some Seles fans permanently occupy. Seles was not invincible and if anyone was going to turn the tables on her, it would be Graf, one of the true GOAT players.

Who said anything about Graf being a defeatist? Seles won 3 majors per year in 1991-1992 when Graf was still playing pretty damn well.

Graf's most impressive win in the early 1990s over Seles was the 1991 San Antonio final, going from 1-4 down in the first set to winning 6-4, 6-3.

 

[Martin J]

I don't think that Graf turns defeatist, but consider her mindset in our timeline vs. an alternate timeline. In our timeline, Graf knows her 1994 struggles were due to her injuries and enters the offseason confident that putting in hard work and retooling some of her game will take her back to the top.

In an alternate timeline, it's at least possible that Seles wins 3 Majors again in 1993 and then 3 or even possibly 4 Majors in 1994. Graf enters the offseason knowing that Seles has dominated the game from 1991-1994. Now, she would clearly question whether her hard work and retooling would be enough to retake the top spot and start snatching Majors again.

Personally, I think Graf still makes the push and we get some epic matches between a rejuvenated Graf and a better version of Seles than we ever saw. But, again, it wouldn't shock me if Graf would have felt defeated at the end of 1994 if she hadn't turned things around by then.

It is totally possible that Monika wins 3 Majors in 1993 (after all, he owned the Tour for two consecutive years and started the 1993 season very strong), but it's also possible (or even probable) that Graf seriously starts working on other aspects of her game that could help her in this match-up. By the time the USO starts, she could develop a gameplan to seriously challenge/beat Seles and it's not three Majors per season anymore.

I always thought that Steffi overused her slice against Monika (it's an incredibly effective shot, but it still gives Seles enough time to reach it and set up optimally for the next shot) and should've tried to hit a hard, sharp-angled topspin CC BH instead, in order to open up the deuce side of the court and unleash her forehand - Seles would have less time to reach that ball and do the usual damage - I've never seen Graf employing this tactics and always thought it could be effective (anyway, it's just an example of what she could've done).

My point is that when it comes to such a competitive players and incredible talents, it's hard to assume that they won't seriously consider applying changes if the previous strategy wasn't paying dividends. Federer started beating Nadal regularly at the age of 35/36 and Seles wasn't as formidable opponent to Graf as Nadal for him, so while your assumption of Seles continuing her domination is legitimate, I think it's perfectly legitimate to expect Graf's reaction (in terms of a new approach) to the Seles challenge (probably as soon as after the AO defeat).

 

[buscemi]

In that 1992 match, Navratilova was 35 years old, and had won what would be her last Wimbledon title in 1990. She was not the tall mountain to climb as some would want to sell it in order to inflate Seles' victory in '92.

Not trying to inflate Navratilova. On the one hand, as you note, she was 35 years old and last won Wimbledon two years ago, in 1990. On the other hand, she was still #4 in the world at that Wimbledon and would return to the final two years later in 1994. It feels fair to say that Navratilova was the second best opponent Seles could have faced at that Wimbledon, at worst third behind Sabatini.