Self-Rate Grievance / Sectionals / Timing

[BustedString]

I played on a Northern Illinois 3.5 team near where I worked some weeks, though I actually live in Madison, WI. The NIL team made State and I learned there that the self-rated guy who played #1 singles in that match was a "ringer" who had been protected by playing doubles with their weaker players all season...until the big state match when he throttled a guy who is probably going to rate up to 4.0.

I did some searches on TennisLink and saw that this player has, for the past 6 or more years, slaughtered every 4.0 player he has played in Open & Open/Age USTA Sanctioned tournaments...the closest score I could find was 6-1, 6-2 against a 4.0. He has about a .500 record against 4.5 players, played two close matches against 5.0 players and frequently beat unrated players who had beaten 4.5 players in prior rounds of those tournaments.

I've been a 3.5 for like 6 years though I finally seem to have figured out my game in the last year or two. My team is about 90% computer rated with a few self-rates who have had competitive matches. I even let the self-rates play up to 4.0 because I figured if they get DQ'd, then they should play at the right level because I had faith in the computer.

My Wisconsin team made 3.5 Sectionals. Yesterday I filed a self-rate grievance with the ******* Section against this dude with the well documented proof of his slaughters of all 4.0 players, his even record against 4.5 guys and competitive matches against 5.0 players....I mean it is in TennisLink so this isn't hearsay or stuff I'm making up. I'm not sure why this player's captain thought a self-rate of 3.5 was appropriate based upon this.

The Section League Coordinator now tells me that they won't review my grievance until after the Section Championships are complete and that even if the guy is rated up due to the Grievance, his matches and team's standings at the Sectional tournament will stand. Does this seem to make sense? Have other people had luck getting these grievances more expediently reviewed? Do I have appeal options? Anyone else have thoughts? If you don't want to post a reply, feel free to PM me with any thoughts on it.

It just seems like clearly this guy should be a 4.5 and the USTA has concrete evidence on him winning USTA Sanctioned Open division tournaments and all these other results....so why are they waiting until after he slaughters everyone at Sectionals to look at it? I grow more disheartened by this behavior but I guess people in other Sections are more familiar with it so maybe it is just par for the course.

 

[Casey10s]

One of the things you can do if you feel confident that he will get DQ'ed and not just moved up after the sectionals is to sacrifice someone in the match against him and try to get at least 2 wins elsewhere. Therefore, if he gets DQ'ed, you get credit for a win. If he only gets moved up, then you need to get 3 wins in that match.

I have seen where the USTA has DQ'ed people during the sectionals if they are that much better than everyone else. Maybe try to push this while you are there and get him DQ'ed during the weekend..

 

[raiden031]

I think you have a good case and unfortunately USTA is choosing the sissy route of not enforcing their own rules. USTA claims a self-rate grievance is warranted when you can provide evidence that a player's skill level is "at the top of the next level", which this player's tournament experience in tennislink indicated. They should be treated at least as harshly as those DQ'd by computer algorithm.

 

[Casey10s]

Another thing to do is to have a captain's meeting before competition starts and submit your data. Get the other captains to support you and force the USTA's hand. Nothing like controlled anarchy to get a response.

As stated by raiden, the USTA person is trying to take the easy way out. This player in question should be DQ'ed before competition starts if your data clearly supports that he is a 4.5. You need to get support from the other teams for this to happen, you can't be the only one.

 

[BustedString]

Thanks for the feedback. I just emailed my grievance to the 3.5M captain's from OH, IN and MI to let them know of the situation. I hope that they are offended as me...but generally speaking it is the team from Illinois that goes to Nationals every year, or at least most for 3.5M, so maybe they aren't too concerned. I hope that they are.

It is surprising and frustrating. Hey - maybe the grievance committee will disagree with me and that's fine...but they should look at it before Sectional play starts. The worst part is that the Section League Coordinator included the Illinois captain on an email to me where she basically said, "we aren't looking at it until after Section and this player's results from Sectional competition are going to stand." Wow, why don't you just let him know right now that they have nothing to worry about?

 

[OrangePower]

I guess in your section USTA Tournament results don't figure into your NTRP rating?

Here in Norcal tournaments influence your rating, so in the scenario you describe, the person would probably already have had a 4.5T (T for tournament) rating, and would not have been eligible to play below 4.5 in USTA League.

Seems the logical thing to do - wonder why other sections don't do this?

 

[BustedString]

In the ******* section, tournaments don't count towards our ratings. At least that is true in Illinois and Wisconsin. Yes, I agree, that would solve the problem.

 

[BustedString]

For those who may wonder, for some reason the board is replacing Mid West (without the spaces) with **** for reasons that I'm sure make sense but are not clear to me.

 

[raiden031]

For those who may wonder, for some reason the board is replacing Mid West (without the spaces) with **** for reasons that I'm sure make sense but are not clear to me.

midw3st sports is a competitor.

 

[SretiCentV]

For those who may wonder, for some reason the board is replacing Mid West (without the spaces) with **** for reasons that I'm sure make sense but are not clear to me.

because they censor names of companies that compete with tennis warehouse and there is a company with that name.

 

[JoelDali]

I think you should file a grievance with the ATP, WTA, USTA, NBA, NFL, and IMF.

This is BS!

This guy is clearly a 5.0.

You need that pen, seriously, you do.

 

[raiden031]

I think you should file a grievance with the ATP, WTA, USTA, NBA, NFL, and IMF.

This is BS!

This guy is clearly a 5.0.

You need that pen, seriously, you do.

You know in most of these cases its just sour grapes and the coveting of the Mighty USTA Pen, but when there's evidence on paper of serious sandbagging, sometimes people need to be exposed and taught a lesson.

 

[BustedString]

It is not about a Pen...it is about ethics, fair play and a level playing field. If you think it is about a Pen then you don't understand that following the rules is elemental to fair sporting. It is OK for you to be smarmy about me wanting a level playing field but you are OK with them basically cheating the system to get that Pen which you think I desire so much?

How we behave in our USTA dealings, or any sporting realm, is really a metaphor for who we are as a person. You seem to be a person OK with manipulating the system and taking advantage of people who try to win by following it.

Bottom line, yes I want to win. And if we don't, that's fine because we are going to have a blast out in Indy. But we demand a level playing field and people who are following the rules in good faith. It's about a lot more than a pen, that's just a cheap gimmick to divert attention from the fact that it is about being honest, being good sportsmen and acting in good faith. Nice try though.

 

[KFwinds]

I am the player from montognese's team who unfortunately had to play against the "ringer" this past weekend. I have played six seasons now in USTA leagues at the 3.5 and 4.0 levels, and I have been to Nationals once and Sectionals twice on 3.5 teams. Most of my practice partners are 4.0's and even a few 4.5's. I had no idea of this guy's history before I stepped on to the court, but after the match I clearly felt I had just played someone better than your average 4.0 (in a 3.5 match). That said, I took the beating in stride knowing that it was his first year in league play and that every year there will be a team that recruits a guy like this.

Where I have a problem is that as montognese discovered, there were clear records that existed before this guy self-rated that showed he was not a 3.5 and should never have been allowed to rate at that level. The USTA really needs to stop sitting around with their thumbs up their a$$es and make sure the rules are upheld.

To all the captains that are going to face this player this weekend (OH, IN, MI, WI), all I can recommend is to try to sacrifice your weakest player on that court. You are welcome to email me for the player's name if needed.

 

[BustedString]

Here's an Open tournament where he finished runner-up to a former college champion. The draw included multiple 4.5/5.0 players and he is runner-up. Yeah, I'm sour grapes for thinking he should not have self-rated at 3.5:

http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/Draws/EventDraw.aspx?T=58452&E=6

Also note that he was seeded which meant at one point he had a ******* Ranking (not NTRP rating but an actual Ranking).

 

[JoelDali]

Wow, now yer naming names for silly 3.5.

Guess what?

The USTA obviously doesn't give a flying fuch.

And no one else does either.



Not trying to be a prich here, but come on, who cares. I was accused of being a ringer all season. One guy nearly cried after I was beating him so bad. Who cares. Its just a stupid league that NO ONE really gives a crap about. Enter tournaments, screw the stupid USTA league.

Get on with it. If every match is 7-6 7-6, great.

I agree, the guy is CLEARLY not a 3.5, but guess what?

NO ONE CARES.

 

[JavierLW]

Wow, now yer naming names for silly 3.5.

Guess what?

The USTA obviously doesn't give a flying fuch.

And no one else does either.



Not trying to be a prich here, but come on, who cares. I was accused of being a ringer all season. One guy nearly cried after I was beating him so bad. Who cares. Its just a stupid league that NO ONE really gives a crap about. Enter tournaments, screw the stupid USTA league.

Get on with it. If every match is 7-6 7-6, great.

I agree, the guy is CLEARLY not a 3.5, but guess what?

NO ONE CARES.

If "NO ONE CARED", then we wouldnt have this thread.....

 

[BustedString]

NO ONE CARES.

I'm confused. You have a post on 8/12 http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=3795940#post3795940 where you were complaining about a sandbagging 4.0 Businessmen's team from Atlanta. You appeared to be quite upset. Now you don't care about a sandbagger when it isn't your team, but when it was you did?

You may not care but it is clear you did care about sandbagging at one point and were grossly offended that it happened to your team. It has happened to one team of mine and could happen again to another. I care, so do the other 40+ players in our division at Sectionals and anyone who cares about truth in ratings. So people care, you've cared about similar situations and I don't understand your flames other than trying to degrade an honest discussion. If you wanted to spell out why this dude should be a 3.5, I'd be much more amenable to your posts.

 

[raiden031]

I'm confused. You have a post on 8/12 http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=3795940#post3795940 where you were complaining about a sandbagging 4.0 Businessmen's team from Atlanta. You appeared to be quite upset. Now you don't care about a sandbagger when it isn't your team, but when it was you did?

You may not care but it is clear you did care about sandbagging at one point and were grossly offended that it happened to your team. It has happened to one team of mine and could happen again to another. I care, so do the other 40+ players in our division at Sectionals and anyone who cares about truth in ratings. So people care, you've cared about similar situations and I don't understand your flames other than trying to degrade an honest discussion. If you wanted to spell out why this dude should be a 3.5, I'd be much more amenable to your posts.

Alot changes in a week. :mrgreen:

JoelDali is PWNED!

 

[gameboy]

I understand that people are looking for fair matches, but seriously, there are bigger injustices in the world. People are taking stuff like this way too seriously.

Look, winning a 3.5 sectional is like (to borrow Obama's quip) winning a Special Olympics 100 yard dash. Who cares? You are just the best of the worst. This is exactly why Olympic got rid of Fast Walking.

USTA levels are artificial contruct that is never going to perfect. If you are so upset about it, then get REALLY good so that you can play in the Open tournaments. I guarantee you there will be no sandbagging.

Seriously, these leagues are for fun. Hyper-competitiveness does not belong in lower levels (I would argue they don't belong in upper levels too, but definitely not in lower levels). Just go out, play your match, have fun, and get better.

Yes, sandbaggers suck. But that is just part of life. And it is cost of playing in lower levels. Just get used to it, this guy is going to get bumped up eventually.

 

[CrocodileRock]

I don't understand something monty. If the guy has been playing USTA for several years, then he should have a USTA computer rating. Why did he self-rate this year?

 

[BustedString]

I understand that people are looking for fair matches, but seriously, there are bigger injustices in the world. People are taking stuff like this way too seriously.

Look, winning a 3.5 sectional is like (to borrow Obama's quip) winning a Special Olympics 100 yard dash. Who cares? You are just the best of the worst. This is exactly why Olympic got rid of Fast Walking.

USTA levels are artificial contruct that is never going to perfect. If you are so upset about it, then get REALLY good so that you can play in the Open tournaments. I guarantee you there will be no sandbagging.

Seriously, these leagues are for fun. Hyper-competitiveness does not belong in lower levels (I would argue they don't belong in upper levels too, but definitely not in lower levels). Just go out, play your match, have fun, and get better.

Yes, sandbaggers suck. But that is just part of life. And it is cost of playing in lower levels. Just get used to it, this guy is going to get bumped up eventually.

To a point I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying. However, we are 18 guys who banded together last December and practiced our butts off, spent money on drills/lessons this summer, fought through injuries and confidence issues and have played a total of 18 matches so far. There are much, much, bigger issues out there for sure. But when you are talking about a commitment of 9 months of my time, hundreds of hours of work and that I feel I have to make the field as even as possible for my teammates...it is a big deal when that is what you are thinking about. When you think about global warming, war, etc., it is a small deal. But when you think of the effort we have all put forth, it is a big deal. More so to me than you...and after this weekend it will be even a smaller deal to me...but I'm going to keep fighting!

So I kind of agree with your post but hope you understand that this represents a lot of time and effort so it isn't trivial to us to see someone circumvent the system we followed.

And yes, levels aren't perfect....but when it is clear, it is clear, and this is clear. I appreciate your respectful post.

 

[BustedString]

I don't understand something monty. If the guy has been playing USTA for several years, then he should have a USTA computer rating. Why did he self-rate this year?

He has been playing USTA Sanctioned tournaments which don't count towards a Computer NTRP or DTRP in our Section so he was eligible to self-rate in that system.

 

[TennisND]

To a point I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying. However, we are 18 guys who banded together last December and practiced our butts off, spent money on drills/lessons this summer, fought through injuries and confidence issues and have played a total of 18 matches so far. There are much, much, bigger issues out there for sure. But when you are talking about a commitment of 9 months of my time, hundreds of hours of work and that I feel I have to make the field as even as possible for my teammates...it is a big deal when that is what you are thinking about. When you think about global warming, war, etc., it is a small deal. But when you think of the effort we have all put forth, it is a big deal. More so to me than you...and after this weekend it will be even a smaller deal to me...but I'm going to keep fighting!

So I kind of agree with your post but hope you understand that this represents a lot of time and effort so it isn't trivial to us to see someone circumvent the system we followed.

And yes, levels aren't perfect....but when it is clear, it is clear, and this is clear. I appreciate your respectful post.

I agree with you. We need to voice it. Not only about the effort or money but about the fairness on the sport we love.

Gameboy,
If you see a bad thing and you don't do anything about it because you don't care, what would you care? Maybe you just don't have passion for tennis. Thus I guess you will never be good at it. Just quit it.

 

[raiden031]

Gameboy,
If you see a bad thing and you don't do anything about it because you don't care, what would you care? Maybe you just don't have passion for tennis. Thus I guess you will never be good at it. Just quit it.

I think Gameboy makes a very valid point. For the most part I don't think sandbagging is that huge a problem. But occasionally if there are opportunities to out someone, might as well do it to help clean up the sport. There is a certain line where its not worth the trouble though. For instance its not worth it to get the courts involved over a USTA league dispute (or see the recent thread about the woman suing over a recreational tennis ladder).

 

[BustedString]

I think Gameboy makes a very valid point. For the most part I don't think sandbagging is that huge a problem. But occasionally if there are opportunities to out someone, might as well do it to help clean up the sport. There is a certain line where its not worth the trouble though. For instance its not worth it to get the courts involved over a USTA league dispute (or see the recent thread about the woman suing over a recreational tennis ladder).

Yeah, even I would draw the line at that. I feel like putting up a good fight, as passionate a fight as I can, but when it is over within the USTA, then it is over. I don't have the $$$, energy or belief that recreational sports should proceed to a lawsuit.

I'm a relative newbie to the forums. Has a USTA league issue ever actually gone to a lawsuit? Wish I had the kind of dough!

 

[TennisND]

I don't consider sandbagging is a problem. I have a problem with the attidute of ignoring the bad issue. That's not a good habit.

 

[JavierLW]

Seriously, these leagues are for fun.

Exactly.

THESE LEAGUES ARE FOR FUN.

Ive heard this argument used over and over and over and over again as far as why it's fair that a few bad apples have to cheat spoil things for everyone else and we shouldn't feel bad about it.

But apparently they cant just play at a reasonable level and "have fun" themselves.....

Ive also heard the silly excuse that somehow our leagues are "not that important", etc... Ive heard that to excuse cheating, not finishing the matches, not showing up for matches, and everything else that is non-desirable that's under the sun.

Ive also heard the common excuse "This is not Wimbledon".

No it is not, do you want to know why?

Wimbledon is something that you're sitting at home and watching on TV.

These leagues are something that YOU ARE ACTUALLY INVOLVED IN.

Maybe some people just want to mosey on thru life on a whim just doing things that arent very important to them, but not everyone is like that.

Especially when you get into the playoffs which involve in many cases, excessive travel, hotel stays, entry fees, etc... It's not like you get paid to do it, so that's all the more reason why an OBVIOUS CHEATER shouldnt be allowed in there.

 

[gameboy]

Look, if it is a clear cut case, which this one seems to be, the computer will take care of it. Sure, it is going to take awhile, but the computer will.

However, there is really no way to really avoid this from happening. This kind of stuff is going to happen time and time again. People around here get really upset at even a sniff of sandbagging and I just don't get it. If you can't handle minor mishaps like this, big leagues may not be your cup of tea.

And if you REALLY have a PASSION for tennis, W-L record is not something you are going to care about (unless you are pro). You should be PASSIONATE about playing, not about winning. That is not being passionate, that is being competitive. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE!

If I am in a match and I am getting overpowered by a sandbagger, I am almost glad because I am getting a chance to play with someone who is better than I am. And I really like playing with better players because it make me a better player for it. Why would get upset about that? Just because you lost? So friggin' what? You got to play (or at least face) some quality tennis.

That's real passion for the game.

 

[raiden031]

I don't consider sandbagging is a problem. I have a problem with the attidute of ignoring the bad issue. That's not a good habit.

The problem is more often than not the claim of sandbagging is unwarranted. I was once accused of being a 4.5 player because I smoked some guys in 6.5 doubles. My true level was probably strong 3.5 at the time and I had a good day. So what I don't deserve to be called a 4.5 sandbagger because of one good match. The rest of my results proved otherwise.

 

[BustedString]

The problem is more often than not the claim of sandbagging is unwarranted. I was once accused of being a 4.5 player because I smoked some guys in 6.5 doubles. My true level was probably strong 3.5 at the time and I had a good day. So what I don't deserve to be called a 4.5 sandbagger because of one good match. The rest of my results proved otherwise.

I agree that sandbagging is thrown out too often. People have complained about my Wisconsin 3.5 team despite the fact that 14 out of 18 players are self-rated and 2 of the self-rates have lost multiple matches. The nice part about the USTA Self-Rate Grievance is that they require proof outside of the league matches....so that makes this an easy case. But yeah, people do throw sandbagging around way too often. This one has some nice documentation so it is a bit different.

Most importantly my complaint is not about the committee's decision. My complaint is that the Mid*West section isn't going to review it until after the tournament, even though they got the information beforehand.

 

[JavierLW]

Look, if it is a clear cut case, which this one seems to be, the computer will take care of it. Sure, it is going to take awhile, but the computer will.

However, there is really no way to really avoid this from happening. This kind of stuff is going to happen time and time again. People around here get really upset at even a sniff of sandbagging and I just don't get it. If you can't handle minor mishaps like this, big leagues may not be your cup of tea.

And if you REALLY have a PASSION for tennis, W-L record is not something you are going to care about (unless you are pro). You should be PASSIONATE about playing, not about winning. That is not being passionate, that is being competitive. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE!

If I am in a match and I am getting overpowered by a sandbagger, I am almost glad because I am getting a chance to play with someone who is better than I am. And I really like playing with better players because it make me a better player for it. Why would get upset about that? Just because you lost? So friggin' what? You got to play (or at least face) some quality tennis.

That's real passion for the game.

The whole point of this thread is not about the MANY cases of suspected sandbagging though. (which are mostly probably bogus, we can probably agree on that)

This is one of the common cases where it's very CLEAR that someone does not belong, and the USTA has chosen to do nothing (or at least nothing useful for the time being)

You say that they cant do anything about everything? That is right! But they can do something about the obvious ones and sometimes they choose not too and Im sorry but that's screwed up.

The computer will not take care of it. (in any amount time that's meaningful)

Their whole point is to hide the guy, just play him in one match (probably at #3 Doubles against a known bad team where he throws a bunch of games), and then they'll march him out for the playoffs. They dont care about next year.

That's the problem, teams want to get to Nationals or wherever and they see that their area is doing poorly so they will pull out stunts like this.

The League would be far better if they could curtail that sort of behavior, and I think they are taking steps to do that, which is why it's worth at least a complaint. (to the right people, probably not to the blockheads at the Mid_West Section)

 

[TennisND]

We are not talking about winning or losing. We are talking abour fairness or what the right thing should be. Do you want to play a match that you will know you lose for sure and disapoint all of your team mate? If I were the your captain, I would not allow you to play in the playoff or section since you don't care about other members.
You only have fun in playing tennis when you play without any objectives. When it comes to playoff/sections... it is a competition now. Fun is only part of it.

 

[gameboy]

Do you want to play a match that you will know you lose for sure and disapoint all of your team mate?

What if you were playing Federer? You are saying because Federer is so much better than you, you won't play in a match against him? That would be pretty sad.

Too exotic of an example? What if you were playing a former D1 player? Hell, how about just a well know local pro?

Are you saying you will refuse to play people like that because you have no chance of winning?

How sad...

If all my captain cared about was winning, I wouldn't join his team. Life is too short, I want to have FUN PLAYING tennis. And I don't need to win every match to have fun. Who needs that pressure where your captain is giving you the evil eye just because you lost a match? I would tell him to get a life!

 

[gameboy]

Fun is only part of it.

Not in my tennis world. Fun is why I play!

 

[tcjackson]

I feel for the guy

I don't understand something monty. If the guy has been playing USTA for several years, then he should have a USTA computer rating. Why did he self-rate this year?

Yeah, that's almost as bad as having your *** kicked by a "4.0" player at National's and voila, 2 years later the same kid is on Baylor's roster!

 

[BustedString]

If all my captain cared about was winning, I wouldn't join his team. Life is too short, I want to have FUN PLAYING tennis. And I don't need to win every match to have fun. Who needs that pressure where your captain is giving you the evil eye just because you lost a match? I would tell him to get a life!

It sucks going out there knowing you are going to lose but you are right, there is an upside that you can use it to improve some skills. I didn't get to be a good 3.5 until I decided to play 4.0 and saw some new things.

The players on my team know it is OK to lose...mainly because I'm usually the one doing it ;-)

Not wanting a 4.5 in the 3.5 league is just like a Division 3 college not wanting a school that is giving out scholarships to be in their division. But I'm quite sure there are a lot of people who followed the rules and they are probably going to be amongst those beating us this weekend...but we will have fun trying.

I'm off now to drive to Indy where I'm sure the IL captain wants to kick my *** for the grievance and many challenges await us on court. I can't wait!

 

[BustedString]

Not in my tennis world. Fun is why I play!

I play for fun, definitely...nothing better than hitting the ball cleanly and doing your personal best, even if you lose. Part of the fun for me is the challenge of building the teams while also following the rules. That is not as fun as on the court but also brings joy. This kind of detracts from it but there is a bottle of gin with my name on it at the hotel bar which I'm sure will help me get over it.

 

[gameboy]

Montognese, that's the attitude I am talking about!!!

Think of it this way. Only way someone could beat you guys was to cheat.

Not too bad of an accomplishment.

 

[JavierLW]

What if you were playing Federer? You are saying because Federer is so much better than you, you won't play in a match against him? That would be pretty sad.

Too exotic of an example? What if you were playing a former D1 player? Hell, how about just a well know local pro?

Are you saying you will refuse to play people like that because you have no chance of winning?

How sad...

If all my captain cared about was winning, I wouldn't join his team. Life is too short, I want to have FUN PLAYING tennis. And I don't need to win every match to have fun. Who needs that pressure where your captain is giving you the evil eye just because you lost a match? I would tell him to get a life!

Your last point is totally separate from your first point.

We play in a league, the whole object (especially at the playoffs) is for the team to do well in a fair fought contest.

You're captain's expectations as you as a player is totally separate from that.

They should expect that you go in and play your best though and if you do, usually you will win unless you're up against someone who's clearly just too good which is fine with exceptions.

If you cant "have fun" and "play at your best" at the same time, then I wouldnt want you on my team. (because there really is no difference, a positive attitude and you realization that you enjoy just being out there giving it the fight is a key to winning anyway)

I am a captain myself and a lot of things that a captain might do when he's looking for the best interests of his team are actually contrary to what the mindset of an actual player is. It's weird sometimes but that's just the way it is.

(for example, just making a lineup considers evaluating and scouting who the opponents are and what the odds are of them getting a win against your players. As a player you shouldnt think about any of that, just go out and play your match and come prepared)

 

[hammer]

Montognese - if the USTA is not going to do anything to the sandbagger in time for sectionals, then perhaps the best thing you can do is find out which teams are playing his team in sectionals, and email their captains and warn them about him so they can sacrifice a player and focus on winning the other lines.

 

[OrangePower]

I understand that people are looking for fair matches, but seriously, there are bigger injustices in the world. People are taking stuff like this way too seriously.

Look, winning a 3.5 sectional is like (to borrow Obama's quip) winning a Special Olympics 100 yard dash. Who cares? You are just the best of the worst. This is exactly why Olympic got rid of Fast Walking.

USTA levels are artificial contruct that is never going to perfect. If you are so upset about it, then get REALLY good so that you can play in the Open tournaments. I guarantee you there will be no sandbagging.

Seriously, these leagues are for fun. Hyper-competitiveness does not belong in lower levels (I would argue they don't belong in upper levels too, but definitely not in lower levels). Just go out, play your match, have fun, and get better.

Yes, sandbaggers suck. But that is just part of life. And it is cost of playing in lower levels. Just get used to it, this guy is going to get bumped up eventually.

I pretty much agree with your attitude towards sandbaggers - just suck it up, and view it as a positive in that you're getting to play a much better player that otherwise you might never have a chance to play against.

But at some point it becomes not about sandbagging, but about outright cheating.

When someone deliberately lies or falsifies information on a self-rate questionnaire, that's not sandbagging, that's outright cheating. And if this can be proved, then I don't think you just let it go.

 

[KFwinds]

I pretty much agree with your attitude towards sandbaggers - just suck it up, and view it as a positive in that you're getting to play a much better player that otherwise you might never have a chance to play against.

But at some point it becomes not about sandbagging, but about outright cheating.

When someone deliberately lies or falsifies information on a self-rate questionnaire, that's not sandbagging, that's outright cheating. And if this can be proved, then I don't think you just let it go.

You couldn't have said it better; this is exactly how I feel about the situation.

 

[amarone]

montognese - are you the team captain? If not, you are not eligible to submite a self-rate grievance and I recommend you get your captain to submit it. From the USTA League Regulations:

2.02E(3) Any league captain, coordinator or member of a Championships Committee may file a self-rate grievance.

Each section can choose whether to hear self-rate grievances before, during or after sectionals. Mid-west has presumably chosen the last of these, although I cannot find anything on their web site stating this.

Each section can then choose whether a DQed player has matches reversed from Sectionals, or is just barred from further play. MWest has chosen the latter, and this is in their rules.

I wish you luck. Sandbagging by just a few can spoil things for many others. I wish the USTA would act quickly to root out the obvious offenders.

 

[hotseat]

i have the undisputed most epic self-rate grievance/sectionals/timing story EVER. the USTA is a joke if you play in it for the sole purpose of advancing to sectional and/or national level play. personally, I used to set goals for that sort of thing, but i've learned (in the hardest way possible) that it's pointless. there are too many variables that you can't control, and the truth is, even if you play your best and WIN, you can still lose with USTA league play.

sorry to hear you got screwed, but i wish my section had the same rules as yours. i don't even want to post what happened to my team because i may have to throw my laptop out the window before i finish the post.

 

[Nellie]

I looked at your "evidence" and do not see anything that would be conclusive of self-rate cheating. This is a small, non-usta tournement with random players. It's not like your opponent lied about their record or tennis past when self-rating, or has such success in USTA league to suggest mis-rating.

 

[KFwinds]

I looked at your "evidence" and do not see anything that would be conclusive of self-rate cheating. This is a small, non-usta tournement with random players. It's not like your opponent lied about their record or tennis past when self-rating, or has such success in USTA league to suggest mis-rating.

You've got to be kidding me. There is more than sufficient evidence to prove this guy is way out of level. The link to that tournament was just one example; there are others. He has reached the finals of multiple open-level events, defeating several 4.5 and 5.0 players along the way (some as easliy as he beat me). He's had an actual mid*west ranking. Don't know how you get that past the questionaire without being false...

 

[BustedString]

Wow, lots of interesting replies while I was on the road trip out and then playing this AM. Thanks for the good discussion, I've learned a lot and that was the goal.

Well we fought the good fight and nothing is going to happen until after Sectionals. Peg Hanna, the Section League Coordinator, emailed the captain of the ringer and said they weren't going to review my grievance at Sectionals and that all of his results will stand. Way to let them know that they have nothing to worry about! I'm having a lot of fun out here so we are moving on but I'm going to remember for a long time how poorly the ******* Section handled this. Even if they ruled against me, we deserved to have it heard before Sectionals were over with, especially since I filed it a few days before it started. She didn't even have the guts to look me in the eye while doing the ID check at registration this morning.

I can't make them follow the rules we chose to follow. Nobody on my team could ever beat a 4.5. We play them tomorrow and are clearly the underdogs. Today we beat Michigan 4-1 (but it was tight) and Indiana is up next.

Interestingly, I played on the neighboring court to the ringer in question. He decided to lose his games early today as I saw some pretty ridiculous misses to where it got to 5-5 in the first and then he took off with some spectacular play, just losing 1 game in the rest of the match. Just enough to make it close. Nice. I need to be more shrewd and not believe in the system!

Still, it's a lot of fun out here and we will continue to try our hardest and play by the rules. On-court victories are more fun than moral victories, but we will take what we can get ;-)

 

[BustedString]

I should clarify, Ms. Hanna said that they will review my Grievance but not until after Sectionals have completed and no matter what, the guys results at Sectionals are going to stand. She emailed that to the opposing captain. Awesome!

 

[BustedString]

Montognese - if the USTA is not going to do anything to the sandbagger in time for sectionals, then perhaps the best thing you can do is find out which teams are playing his team in sectionals, and email their captains and warn them about him so they can sacrifice a player and focus on winning the other lines.

I did email the other captains and met with a Michigan player in the hotel whirlpool. He said that they agreed with my grievance and were glad I filed it.