I would not share too much info about secret whirlpool meetings with men from other teams;-)
Self-Rate Grievance / Sectionals / Timing
- Thread starter BustedString
- Start date
I would not share too much info about secret whirlpool meetings with men from other teams;-)
goober
Legend
BustedString
Rookie
ROFLMAO! Great call.
BustedString
Rookie
Well, now, this is embarrassing....we played the Chicago team and they, oddly, put this guy at #1D while he is a much stronger singles player. My guys beat he and his brother in 3 straight TB's. I guess maybe I should withdraw my grievance? I still say at singles he is 4.5+ but his doubles results are definitely not as strong. So maybe I have egg on my face? Ehh, all in a day. I fought for my team.
http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/...ts.asp?Level=M&TeamMatchID=2261807&CYear=2009
http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/...ts.asp?Level=M&TeamMatchID=2261807&CYear=2009
goober
Legend
Yes I would say your calls of sandbagging were unfounded. Not only that, after looking at the members on your team, I noticed that your top 2 singles players had a number of wins at against 4.0 level players.
Your team is undefeated during regular season, districts and sectionals. I am sure there are a lot of other teams that think your team is loaded with sandbaggers.
That doesnt really change it though if he's clearly violated what his rating is supposed to be according to the experience player chart.
They dont care about match results. At least they dont when you use them to try to say why someone is not at the right level, so they shouldnt consider them the other way either...
All they care about is player history, especially when it's something that's outside of what's allowed by the chart.
AgassiFan12
New User
Goober,
I'm one of the doubles players that played the player that the greivance was filed against. He's not a 4.5 doubles player, but a strong 4.0. As a self rate player myself, but with no open experience and only 2 years high school experience (and never making state tourney) I feel like I followed the rules to self rate. This guy self rating at a 3.5 when he clearly knew that he was much better than that since he was doing well at open tourneys in ILL, which most would agree has better/more competitive tennis overall than WI.
The players on our team that have a solid 4.0 record are all computer rated so they are NOT sandbagging, they have just improved alot since last January. Our top players have put in countless hours trying to improve our games so we could hopefully make it to, and compete at sectionals. Surprisingly to us, we made it through sectionals and are now going to Nationals!!!
I do see your point, but to me we can't help that the computer kept some of our better players rated at 3.5 at year end last year. Where this guy from IL self rated.
I'm one of the doubles players that played the player that the greivance was filed against. He's not a 4.5 doubles player, but a strong 4.0. As a self rate player myself, but with no open experience and only 2 years high school experience (and never making state tourney) I feel like I followed the rules to self rate. This guy self rating at a 3.5 when he clearly knew that he was much better than that since he was doing well at open tourneys in ILL, which most would agree has better/more competitive tennis overall than WI.
The players on our team that have a solid 4.0 record are all computer rated so they are NOT sandbagging, they have just improved alot since last January. Our top players have put in countless hours trying to improve our games so we could hopefully make it to, and compete at sectionals. Surprisingly to us, we made it through sectionals and are now going to Nationals!!!
I do see your point, but to me we can't help that the computer kept some of our better players rated at 3.5 at year end last year. Where this guy from IL self rated.
precision2b
Semi-Pro
I agree with OrangePower. It seems that winning means a lot more then people want to admit. Why is there so much sandbagging going on if it doesn’t … I think you need to stand up for what is right. If you don’t it gives the green light for more sandbagging…
BustedString
Rookie
Both of my primary singles players are computer rated after 2+ years of USTA play so the self-rate issue doesn't come into play. I can't begrudge them if they get awesome computer rated players but my issue was/is inappropriate self-rates. I had a former 4.5 who hadn't played in 3+ years so he could self-rate. If I was unethical, I would have had him self-rate on my 3.5 team but I knew his prior skills from his matches on TennisLink so I had him self-rate at 4.0 where it turns out he had a losing record though he just took a while to get going. I also had a recent HS grad who I put on my 4.0 team only because I knew even though his self-rate came back at 3.5 it just wasn't right to put him at that level. AgassiFan12 is my only self-rated player who didn't lose but he is not very good so I don't know how that happened :razz:
I did withdraw the grievance. I saw a lot of his singles match on a neighboring court and most of the doubles match he played as well. When he wanted to, he had 4.5 singles quality skills. However, he is definitely no better than a strong 4.0 at doubles. I definitely learned a lot about the process and everyone's posts, so I appreciate them. I've played against a lot of self-rate players who I thought were under-rated, but the only time it really upset me was this one...when I saw these unbelievable tourney results and then a 3.5 self-rate, it definitely rankled me and the fact that I try to obey the rules and also wanted to have a level playing field for my team. It was an incredibly interesting process.
You are right, any team that wins is accused of sandbagging which is why I see that some people get frustrated that everyone throws it around. I don't like the term sandbagger. If you would have read the grievance, I was very friendly and basically said, "here are this dude's tournament results...I don't think they justify 3.5 so I'd like the committee to review them and see if they agree." It wasn't harsh or accusatory at all. My main issue, and why I posted here, was that ******* people weren't looking at the issue before Sectionals. Even if they would have ruled against me, they should have looked at it beforehand. I'm a big boy and can take an adverse decision.
It is indeed embarrassing that we beat him but again he had a partner with very different skill levels and my team played great. I'm glad I brought it up though I did worry that IL might use it as a rallying cry against our team. If they did, it was not successful.
I guess it is a very gray area. My ultimate question now is how can the NTRP system be so out of whack for different Districts? Some of the teams we played at Sectionals would have finished mid-pack in our flight in Madison. I guess maybe it is cyclical.
It's because 3.5 is a huge range even if you discount sandbagging.
Also there are these factors:
1) Just because a team made it to sectionals doesnt mean they made it with their 8 or 10 best players. In the Mid_West some teams have quite a ways to go to get to Indy, along with taking off of work for 2 days, paying for hotels, etc... In this economy that may not be as much of a priority as it normally is. I understand that Wisconsin didnt even field a team at 3.0 because of that.
2) Different teams make it this far every year nowdays. In the old days the same teams seemed to make it there every year. I think that gave them some experience at playing in the playoffs, but nowdays you have a bunch of teams there for the first time and as you know it is quite a different animal then local league play so different teams may deal with it differently.
I barely missed going to our regionals, and I noticed playing players who normally I knew would of been pretty tough in the regular league but they seemed nervous and were not at the top of their game in the playoffs.
Having a positive attitude and being able to perform at your best just seemed to be more important then ever in the playoffs.
3) In our area, we have a very short season in the summer and for most people that's about it for USTA play. So think about it, we get a rating in November for matches that took place around 4 months ago, and we dont play another match that counts for another 6 months.
Some people play tennis during that whole time. If you take lessons, drills, play in your club leagues, continually work on your game, it's very conceivable that you can be well into 4.0 by the time you play again, yet it's quite legal for you to remain at 3.5.
Even if you figure EVERYONE who makes it to Indy is doing that, they can be at vastly different points in their tennis career by then.
beernutz
Hall of Fame
Wow, now yer naming names for silly 3.5.
Guess what?
The USTA obviously doesn't give a flying fuch.
And no one else does either.
Not trying to be a prich here, but come on, who cares. I was accused of being a ringer all season. One guy nearly cried after I was beating him so bad. Who cares. Its just a stupid league that NO ONE really gives a crap about. Enter tournaments, screw the stupid USTA league.
Get on with it. If every match is 7-6 7-6, great.
I agree, the guy is CLEARLY not a 3.5, but guess what?
NO ONE CARES.
Speak for yourself. I know many people who care, including myself. Who died and made you the spokesperson for everyone anyway?
John, first of all let me congratulate you guys for making it to Nationals; you and your teammates will have a blast!
I am disappointed though that you withdrew the grievance. Just because you guys lucked out and IL put him in a doubles slot doesn't change the fact that this guy is probably closer to a 4.5 in singles. You and I both know that doubles and singles are a completely different game. In doubles you are only as strong as the weaker player, and this guy's brother and doubles partner, who I have played on many occasions, is clearly a middle of the road 3.5 at best. Also, I have taken sets from teaching pros and 5.0 level players in doubles matches - does that make me a 5.0? Not hardly.
The point is, anytime their team wants an automatic win they can just put him in a singles slot. Why they didn't do this at the Sectional is a mystery, except that they might have been attempting to avoid a DQ, or even worse, maintain his bogus rating for next season. Ah well, you probably owe him one anyway for making sure our team didn't get through to Sectionals - it made your decision on which team to play for a bit easier
BustedString
Rookie
John, first of all let me congratulate you guys for making it to Nationals; you and your teammates will have a blast!
I am disappointed though that you withdrew the grievance. Just because you guys lucked out and IL put him in a doubles slot doesn't change the fact that this guy is probably closer to a 4.5 in singles. You and I both know that doubles and singles are a completely different game. In doubles you are only as strong as the weaker player, and this guy's brother and doubles partner, who I have played on many occasions, is clearly a middle of the road 3.5 at best. Also, I have taken sets from teaching pros and 5.0 level players in doubles matches - does that make me a 5.0? Not hardly.
The point is, anytime their team wants an automatic win they can just put him in a singles slot. Why they didn't do this at the Sectional is a mystery, except that they might have been attempting to avoid a DQ, or even worse, maintain his bogus rating for next season. Ah well, you probably owe him one anyway for making sure our team didn't get through to Sectionals - it made your decision on which team to play for a bit easier
KF, I actually agree with your points completely. My decision to withdraw it was not logical...it was because I felt guilty about beating them and then appearing to be unsportsmanlike in continuing with the grievance. He will definitely -- I think -- rate up to 4.0 next year where he will still be a considerable asset as a singles player. I don't know if a self-rate grievance would have changed his computer rating for next year. However, you are ABSOLUTELY correct in what I should have done logically. Having self-rated players with documented results way above that level being rated up on grievance sends a message to everyone.
Hopefully his win over you will help you maintain your 3.5 rating and next year you can be at Nationals! I think, unfortunately, that you are too good to not rate up though.
I agree, we completely lucked out that they put him in @ dubs. My guys said that they were up a break in the 1st when the brothers played two really great games to force the TB. They were worried about the sandbagging at that point but if they tried to make it close, they ultimately made it too close and we were able to attack the weaker partner.
Thanks for the props. It is a pity that our NIL team didn't make Sectionals because they would have done well, but not quite as well as WI
KF, I actually agree with your points completely. My decision to withdraw it was not logical...it was because I felt guilty about beating them and then appearing to be unsportsmanlike in continuing with the grievance. He will definitely -- I think -- rate up to 4.0 next year where he will still be a considerable asset as a singles player. I don't know if a self-rate grievance would have changed his computer rating for next year. However, you are ABSOLUTELY correct in what I should have done logically. Having self-rated players with documented results way above that level being rated up on grievance sends a message to everyone.
Hopefully his win over you will help you maintain your 3.5 rating and next year you can be at Nationals! I think, unfortunately, that you are too good to not rate up though.
I agree, we completely lucked out that they put him in @ dubs. My guys said that they were up a break in the 1st when the brothers played two really great games to force the TB. They were worried about the sandbagging at that point but if they tried to make it close, they ultimately made it too close and we were able to attack the weaker partner.
Thanks for the props. It is a pity that our NIL team didn't make Sectionals because they would have done well, but not quite as well as WI
Heck, knowing them they would of ditched the grievance anyway, stating the same facts that you just said. (he's out of contention, the grievance is meaningless at that point)
Which is interesting about their decision to not look at any of those until after the actual event.
I guess for next season you'll have to do it ahead of time. Perhaps travel thru time and see what teams you'll face in the 4.0 sectionals and then go back and file a grievance on them before the season begins....
If you have some contacts in the National Commitee just maybe forward them the info for their own information. They look at these things every year and that's how they determine how to tweak the system.
Dealing with the section or district people is useless because they are very biased obviously. (if it was up to them we would go back to the old days where nobody ever gets moved up and the same teams go to Indy every single year after year after year)
film1
Semi-Pro
I have two pens and you can have one of them.
AgassiFan12
New User
John, please don't say "They" you know if was only one of us that had a concern about it, and it wasn't me. It was my headcase of a partner.
JoelDali
Talk Tennis Guru
You're right, 3.5 league and the pen are critical to the future of recreational tennis.
Naming names, posting videos of people, and general whining we witness here is what makes the USTA unresponsive to grievances. They don't care folks. If they did, this guy would have been booted a long time ago.
This year in the eastern region I understand a guy was banned for 5 years for punching another player out in the face. A friend in Jersey forwarded me the email from the District coordinator and it was like she was speaking to gradeschool children. Is it is really necessary to punch people out over a call?
What a joke people.
So yeah, no one really cares about 3.5 league, whiners, grievances, cheating, and sandbagging.
I'll stand behind that statement until I see change. I'll chip in a quarter to start the momentum towards that goal.
JoelDali
Talk Tennis Guru
I'll pay big money for that pen, and then before USTA matches I will accidently drop it on the ground so my opponent sees it and gets psyched out knowing that I am sandbagging and will steamroll him of the court.
BustedString
Rookie
I'm OK without the pen but thank you for also completely missing the point. Does it make you feel important to try and demean others?
I have two brains...you can have one of them...you need it.
BustedString
Rookie
You're right, 3.5 league and the pen are critical to the future of recreational tennis.
Naming names, posting videos of people, and general whining we witness here is what makes the USTA unresponsive to grievances. They don't care folks. If they did, this guy would have been booted a long time ago.
This year in the eastern region I understand a guy was banned for 5 years for punching another player out in the face. A friend in Jersey forwarded me the email from the District coordinator and it was like she was speaking to gradeschool children. Is it is really necessary to punch people out over a call?
What a joke people.
So yeah, no one really cares about 3.5 league, whiners, grievances, cheating, and sandbagging.
I'll stand behind that statement until I see change. I'll chip in a quarter to start the momentum towards that goal.
Punching a guy? Really? Wow....I think that merits a lifetime ban.
This isn't "serious" business and I wasn't ready to go to Oprah whining. It was an honest discussion and seeking some advice. Some people like to post flames in hopes of appearing "cool" instead of trying to have an honest discussion...in which they don't have to participate if they want. (That wasn't directed at you).
I agree that the USTA can be unresponsive to some grievances and then really responsive to others. I guess it depends upon how much they care about the issue. I highly doubt anything on TW forums really enters into their decision making processes.
film1
Semi-Pro
pen
I was not only poking fun at your situation, I am poking fun at myself.
I am new as well, forgive my being a little cynical but most people on here have a story or know of someone who has a story and have heard it all.
As Lou Holts said, never complain, 90 percent of the people don’t care about your problems and the other 10 percent are glad you have them.
I made the same argument in principal over people playing below their level but I can assure you, no one lost sleep, no one said we must all take a stand and I went from trying to make what I felt was a valid point to laughing at myself seeing how trivial it must seem to others. We are talking low quality tennis here and in the big picture most people could care less unless it directly involves them.
Players and captains are not fooling anyone playing down and their victories are taken with a grain of salt.
Show me 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5 champions on the highest level and most likely you will be showing people playing below their level.
I guess it takes that to be able to win at of the ugly game inside the beautiful game of tennis.
I was not only poking fun at your situation, I am poking fun at myself.
I am new as well, forgive my being a little cynical but most people on here have a story or know of someone who has a story and have heard it all.
As Lou Holts said, never complain, 90 percent of the people don’t care about your problems and the other 10 percent are glad you have them.
I made the same argument in principal over people playing below their level but I can assure you, no one lost sleep, no one said we must all take a stand and I went from trying to make what I felt was a valid point to laughing at myself seeing how trivial it must seem to others. We are talking low quality tennis here and in the big picture most people could care less unless it directly involves them.
Players and captains are not fooling anyone playing down and their victories are taken with a grain of salt.
Show me 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5 champions on the highest level and most likely you will be showing people playing below their level.
I guess it takes that to be able to win at of the ugly game inside the beautiful game of tennis.
BustedString
Rookie
I can appreciate that perspective....however, my initial post was asking for advice....which maybe came across as a complaint but it was my first time experiencing this situation so I really just wanted to know what people thought. Seeing other posts about what goes on in California, Chicago, etc., makes me realize us in Wisconsin just are pretty much naive about how to really cheat the system.
I completely agree with you that the champions are all pretty much playing below their level. However, my team that just made Nationals at 3.5 has only 2 self-rated players and many of us have had computer ratings for 3+ years (6 in my case). I think the NTRP system left a few of us behind or something but part of captaining is using, not ABUSING, the system to your advantage.
Part of it is naivete because we just don't see a lot of it in Wisconsin, but it sounds like it is more common in other areas. I posted seeking advice to handle it. Most of the responses have been invaluable. Yeah, it is hack tennis but that doesn't mean the 10 of us spending thousands of dollars to go to Tucson now care any less about it.
I will probably care less next year though when I rate up and am only a mid-level player ;-) I mean everyone is going to be a sandbagger if they beat me, right?
BustedString
Rookie
JoelDali, I know they may not care but I do care. Some people care too much as evidenced by what happened last year in the NIL District Championships when I received a telephoned death threat the day before they started. I received a "Private" call and the caller told me he was going to shoot me when I was on court. It started a crazy chain of events that ultimately led the facility to not allow me to play even though the USTA hired armed guards. They have a suspect but apparently not enough proof to charge him and won't release his name to me.
So I agree that, at times, the USTA doesn't care. I cared about this but realized it wasn't the end of the world. But some people care so much about 3.5 tennis that they will call people and tell them that they are going to be shot when they are playing. It is a crazy world.
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