Self-Rated Players and dynamic NTRP

[Caswell]

As a computer rated player, how does playing self-rated players affect your dynamic NTRP (if at all).

I play both 3.5 and 3.0 leagues, and there are a good number of self-rated players at this level. In fact, all three of my singles matches this fall have been against self-rated players. I've won all of them, but I'm wondering if it helps my rating at all or simply helps to establish theirs.

From what I've read here, I'm guessing until they play enough matches to get a dynamic NTRP that the matches have no effect on my NTRP. How about year-end ratings? If these guys do well this season does that help me at year-end?

 

[Mark Jensen]

From what I've read:

A match between a self-rater and computer-rated player will not count towards the dNTRP of the computer-rated player.
The match will begin the dNTRP history for the self-rater, though.

Also, a self-rated player stays a self-rater for a full 12 months after they enter the USTA, that doesn't change when the year-end ratings come out.

I'd argue that the self-rated player's year-end rating will have no effect on the ratings of any of the computer-rated players he or she has met over the year.

Anybody know if this is correct?

-M
aka "policy wonk"

 

[oldguysrule]

From what I've read:

A match between a self-rater and computer-rated player will not count towards the dNTRP of the computer-rated player.
The match will begin the dNTRP history for the self-rater, though.

Also, a self-rated player stays a self-rater for a full 12 months after they enter the USTA, that doesn't change when the year-end ratings come out.

I'd argue that the self-rated player's year-end rating will have no effect on the ratings of any of the computer-rated players he or she has met over the year.

Anybody know if this is correct?

-M
aka "policy wonk"

Partially correct...Once the self-rated player starts generating a DNTRP (after 3-4 matches) then it counts for both players (95% sure).

A self-rated player will generate a computer rating at the end of the year...assuming he/she plays 4 or more matches that count.

The year-end rating has no effect on the ratings of ANY players that you meet during the year. Your year-end rating is based on your DNTRP at the end of the year which is adjusted each match. (for league play). I am not exactly sure how tournament play factors in to the year-end rating.

 

[Mark Jensen]

Partially correct...Once the self-rated player starts generating a DNTRP (after 3-4 matches) then it counts for both players (95% sure).

Perhaps, but a former league coordinator once told me that a self-rater's match results won't influence a computer-rated player's dNTRP...period. Is that true for the whole year they're a "selfer" or just until they start a dNTRP after their 4th match. I don't know either way for sure.

A self-rated player will generate a computer rating at the end of the year...assuming he/she plays 4 or more matches that count.

True

The year-end rating has no effect on the ratings of ANY players that you meet during the year. Your year-end rating is based on your DNTRP at the end of the year which is adjusted each match. (for league play). I am not exactly sure how tournament play factors in to the year-end rating.

True again, but I think the OP was concerned about the self-rater turning to a computer-rater when the year-ends come out. I don't think that happens...A self-rater gets a year-end, but stays a self-rater till 12 months go by.

And, as an aside, strictly speaking "The year-end rating has no effect on the ratings of ANY players that you meet during the year." is true..the year-end calculation is a done deal...finito...that's the final number. But the last dNTRP rating generated by some players DOES have an effect on players they have met over the past year...Benchmark player's final dNTRPs influence everyone's year-ends.

-M


Oh, PS...in Southern this year only the Adult, Senior, and Mixed leagues are counting towards dNTRP...tourney's have been thrown out in '07.

 

[tennis-n-sc]

Oh, PS...in Southern this year only the Adult, Senior, and Mixed leagues are counting towards dNTRP...tourney's have been thrown out in '07.

Actually, Mixed doesn't count if you play Adult or Senior league.

 

[35ft6]

A TW member I hit with yesterday enlightened me to the ways of So Cal league play. All I can say is hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

[Caswell]

That's what I thought, and I completely understand why it's that way.

That said, I've gotta vent.

Seems all I've done this season (in regards to ratings) by going 3-0 in 3.5 and 3.0 singles is help establish the dNTRP for new players. Haven't done a thing to help myself out. Very frustrating.

I'm trying to get my rating up to 3.5 so I can stop playing in the 3.0 league - both teams have the same captain and I can play up as long as I play the 3.0 as well. I play in another local mixed league, and still like to get some practice in. It's wearing on me physically.

 

[Ace]

The year-end rating has no effect on the ratings of ANY players that you meet during the year. Your year-end rating is based on your DNTRP at the end of the year which is adjusted each match. (for league play).

That is not exactly true. Your rating is 1/2 your dynamic rating and 1/2 your rating calculated by the traditional "benchmark" method. If you go to nationals, states, districts, etc, you become "benchmarked". Half of everyones rating is calculated based on how they did against the people who became benchmarked that year...the other half is the Dynamic portion.

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/HelpTutorials/ab050000.html

At the end of the initial presentation, they also describe the process in "Understanding Your NTRP Rating"

DNTRP is in effect at all times, even when two self-rated players play against each other.

DNTRP calculations for all players everywhere are adjusted after Nationals (for adult league) depending on how their section did at Nationals. There is a trickle effect as matches are computed backwards. Year end ratings are generated after Nationals and after applying tournament results as well. Benchmarked National players can not appeal their rating, while Sectional and District benchmarked players can.

There is a new category of tournament exclusive year end rating

This year, USTA didn't publish mixed exclusive year end ratings. Self-rated mixed players no longer generate a computer rating. Both Mixed Exclusive and Self-rated players are encouraged to play adult league to generate a true rating.

Self-rated players generate a average "baseline" DNTRP rating after 3 to 4 matches played against computer rated players (or self-rated players who already played 3 to 4 matches). The baseline rating is then adjusted based on the match differentials.

Even after playing one match, self-rated players have generated an initial differential rating (if played against a computer rated player). Although self-rated players may appear not to have a computer rating through out the year (unless you're in a section that generates early start ratings (ESR) for combo and/or mixed leagues), they do have a computer rating that can be pulled by USTA staff when asked by the grievance committee or grievance appeal committee (like during a self-rating grievance).

If self-rated players only had a couple (or less) matches entered into the system, they could appeal their ESR and/or year end computer rating.

Self-rated combo players do not generate a computer rating.

Computer rated players get DNTRP adjusted after playing self-rated players who have already generated a "baseline" DNTRP rating. Otherwise, only the self-rated players have the initial differential based DNTRP rating (ie. the computer rated player remains the same, but the self-rated player is adjusted).

Adult league players are not affected by Mixed DNTRP calculations. Mixed DNTRP calculations are only used during self-rating grievances.

 

[Mark Jensen]

Yeah, I see what you're saying Raidin K. Those NTRP videos are so informative. Sarcasm.

OK, you say:

DNTRP is in effect at all times, even when two self-rated players play against each other.

What's your source? And what do you mean by "in effect"?

You also say:

Computer rated players get DNTRP adjusted after playing self-rated players who have already generated a "baseline" DNTRP rating.

Again, source? My sources say otherwise.

I'm not out for confrontation. Trust me. I'm just wanting to get a little more transparency in the process. I'm all for keeping player's dNTRP "secret" but I think knowing the rules would be really informative. I feel the USTA treats us players like little children..."don't ask questions, let us handle it." That's bull#$%^#. We're members, we pay a lot of money in all sorts of fees, and mostly we're just curious.

Anyway, I value your experience and sure would like to know the facts.
Thanks,
-M

From "understanding your NTRP rating":
"we can't share the exact proportions, that's our family recipe, but we'll show you the ingredients and the techniques to make up a delicious, fluffy NTRP rating"...Ha! You're kidding me

 

[Cindysphinx]

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/HelpTutorials/ab050000.html


This year, USTA didn't publish mixed exclusive year end ratings. Self-rated mixed players no longer generate a computer rating. Both Mixed Exclusive and Self-rated players are encouraged to play adult league to generate a true rating.

A new male player I know self-rated at 2.5 for 2006, played mixed exclusively, and received a 3.0 mixed exclusive rating in Nov. 2006.

Is this to be a new rule for 2007?

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

A new male player I know self-rated at 2.5 for 2006, played mixed exclusively, and received a 3.0 mixed exclusive rating in Nov. 2006.

Is this to be a new rule for 2007?

Yes. All USTA sections realized that too many mixed only players were abusing their ratings.

 

[10sfreak]

Ha! Good luck trying to get a real grasp of the DNTRP system. Several weeks ago in another thread, I had several posters keep insisting that computer-rated players rarely get DQed in the middle of a season, even though I personally have seen it happen every season for the last four seasons.
So, on the 22nd of March, I received an email from our Section coordinator that one of the players on the men's 3.0 team I captain has been DQed from my team, and the last match awarded to the opposing team. When said player called the coordinator, he was told that he actually should have been bumped up last summer, but the computer failed to catch it. So basically, since the computer is the one that bumps you up, the computer failed to catch itself!! Funny thing, his "year-end rating", instead of being 12/31/06, is now 3/21/07! Go figure...
Now, there are going to be posters on here who will chime in and write that my player shouldn't have been playing in 3.0, that he should have been playing "at his true level", etc. Ok fine, but how is a player supposed to know his level if the computer has it wrong in the first place? That's my main gripe about the NTRP system - the computer has you rated at level "X", allows you to sign up at that level (and of course, takes your money to do so), then DQs you in the middle of the season! Fortunately, it didn't hurt our team standing in our division, but it very well could have! That's why I just don't think that any computer-rated player should ever get DQed. Bumped up for next season, fine, but not DQed in the middle of the season.

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Ha! Good luck trying to get a real grasp of the DNTRP system. Several weeks ago in another thread, I had several posters keep insisting that computer-rated players rarely get DQed in the middle of a season, even though I personally have seen it happen every season for the last four seasons.
So, on the 22nd of March, I received an email from our Section coordinator that one of the players on the men's 3.0 team I captain has been DQed from my team, and the last match awarded to the opposing team. When said player called the coordinator, he was told that he actually should have been bumped up last summer, but the computer failed to catch it. So basically, since the computer is the one that bumps you up, the computer failed to catch itself!! Funny thing, his "year-end rating", instead of being 12/31/06, is now 3/21/07! Go figure...
Now, there are going to be posters on here who will chime in and write that my player shouldn't have been playing in 3.0, that he should have been playing "at his true level", etc. Ok fine, but how is a player supposed to know his level if the computer has it wrong in the first place? That's my main gripe about the NTRP system - the computer has you rated at level "X", allows you to sign up at that level (and of course, takes your money to do so), then DQs you in the middle of the season! Fortunately, it didn't hurt our team standing in our division, but it very well could have! That's why I just don't think that any computer-rated player should ever get DQed. Bumped up for next season, fine, but not DQed in the middle of the season.

I can cite many examples of players being disqualified in the middle of the season up until Sectionals. Unfortunately, the USTA's database is hard to access for those players. I may use USTA NorCal's website to show players disqualified at Sectionals.

The USTA program is actually faulty. It may have 3 striked someone or even generated a proper rating for someone, but depending on when the section uploaded ratings, the player getting DQ'd may not be caught until much later.

This said, players should know when they are out of level and have the integrity to start playing at the higher NTRP level, and not use the excuse, "I have a computer rating so I can." Tennis is supposed to be a game of courtesy, not a game of winning at all costs. Although, lately, USTA league tennis seems more like an arms race than tennis.

 

[Caswell]

This said, players should know when they are out of level and have the integrity to start playing at the higher NTRP level, and not use the excuse, "I have a computer rating so I can." Tennis is supposed to be a game of courtesy, not a game of winning at all costs. Although, lately, USTA league tennis seems more like an arms race than tennis.

If I told my captain that, ratings bedamned, I was too good to play 3.0 tennis and that I'd only play on the 3.5 team I'd come across as more than a little arrogant.

In fact, the reason that I orginally self-rated at 3.0 was because I didn't want to appear arrogant. A year ago I was out of shape and hadn't hit a ball since high school almost a decade ago. I bought into the idea that if I was clearly above level than I'd get bumped up.

I didn't count on playing nothing but self-rated players week after week and having my dynamic rating stagnate for an entire season.

 

[10sfreak]

Raiden, is it your position that we should all play above our computer rating? If the all-mighty computer says you're a 3.0, then wouldn't it be really arrogant to say that you're actually better than that, that the computer doesn't know what it's talking about? Are YOU only playing in a league rated higher than the computer has you? In other words, if the computer has you rated as a 4.0, do you eschew playing at that level, and only play in the 4.5 league?
I've been bumped up for next season to 3.5 (and will in all likelihood get my butt kicked all over the courts again, like I have until recently in 3.0), and you can bet you ass I'm NOT going to be playing only in 4.0 league tennis! I'm not quite that arrogant.

 

[10sfreak]

Btw Raiden, actually, tennis is NOT just a game of courtesy, it's about winning as well. That's why we keep score...

 

[10sfreak]

Sakumo, you obviously don't know how to read, as what I wrote was that tennis in not JUST a game of courtesy, it's about winning TOO. That's why we keep score. Duh!

 

[Topaz]

The game of tennis of different things to different people...let it be.

 

[10sfreak]

Topaz, I'll go along with that!

 

[Sakumo]

So moron, you don't keep score in your matches?! Idiot! Mind you own business, this has nothing to do with you.

Actually, when I hit with my buds no I never keep score. My point was, don't me a jerk, tennis IS about courtesy, which I can tell from your other posts I've seen, you don't have

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Btw Raiden, actually, tennis is NOT just a game of courtesy, it's about winning as well. That's why we keep score...

Obviously, you haven't read The Code. Or at least you don't follow The Code.

Better hope not to meet me when I'm doing stuff for a grievance committee.

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Raiden, is it your position that we should all play above our computer rating? If the all-mighty computer says you're a 3.0, then wouldn't it be really arrogant to say that you're actually better than that, that the computer doesn't know what it's talking about? Are YOU only playing in a league rated higher than the computer has you? In other words, if the computer has you rated as a 4.0, do you eschew playing at that level, and only play in the 4.5 league?
I've been bumped up for next season to 3.5 (and will in all likelihood get my butt kicked all over the courts again, like I have until recently in 3.0), and you can bet you ass I'm NOT going to be playing only in 4.0 league tennis! I'm not quite that arrogant.

What I'm saying is that let's say you take a lot of lessons and improve prior to the start of a season. You start wiping out people who formerly kept up with you, 6-0, 6-0. This would be an indication you are now out of level. Let's say you play against people on your own team, and consistently beat them 6-2, 6-2, or better. That would also be an indication you are now out of level. Let's say you start playing higher NTRP players, and consistently keep up with them and occasionally win. This is another indication that you are now out of level.

I didn't say to play up. I said to play at the correct level.

USTA tennis was built on high ideals, but now we got too many trophy hunters willing to bend the rules. It's become an arms race.

So when does it stop? When one person decides to play the game honestly. And then another. And then another.

Too many people who didn't play any sport competitively when they were younger have this idea that having a trophy makes them a better person. Those of us who have played competitively realize there's more to life than just having another trophy gathering dust. Who is going to remember that you went to playoffs, districts, sectionals, nationals, etc. a year later? I would bet there are more people who are going to remember that someone was both a good person and a good tennis player, fun to be around, someone to depend on, etc.