Self-Rates - Sandbaggers or optimistic on average?

Startzel said:
Should this attitude also apply for people that are being bumped up?

I'm going to get bumped this year. So I will be playing at a new level and should be one of the weaker players. So it's unlikely that good teams will want me nor play me if they do.

Should I just throw my matches so I can get bumped down next year to a level I will have ample playing time?
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hmm... if i got bumped to 5.0... presuming i would be a weak 5.0, there would be no need to "throw" matches... presuming a team would let me play (i have played on 5.0 teams), i'd lose (have lost) even giving my best effort.

presuming there was no team willing to let me play, i'd create (i have in the past when i first got bumped to 4.5), my own team (probably a mix of 4.5 and 5.0 players - sticking with the if-i-got-bumped-to-5.0-theme), and play "normally" - i'd probably get bumped down "naturally" - no need to throw.

for folks that got bumped up and can't find a team to play on AND don't want to run/recruit their own team (i'm presuming you know a bunch of folks that would welcome the opportunity to "play up")... then you're stuck in limbo - but that's your own fault for not wanting to make an effort to play.
 
nytennisaddict said:
hmm... if i got bumped to 5.0... presuming i would be a weak 5.0, there would be no need to "throw" matches... presuming a team would let me play (i have played on 5.0 teams), i'd lose (have lost) even giving my best effort.

presuming there was no team willing to let me play, i'd create (i have in the past when i first got bumped to 4.5), my own team (probably a mix of 4.5 and 5.0 players - sticking with the if-i-got-bumped-to-5.0-theme), and play "normally" - i'd probably get bumped down "naturally" - no need to throw.

for folks that got bumped up and can't find a team to play on AND don't want to run/recruit their own team (i'm presuming you know a bunch of folks that would welcome the opportunity to "play up")... then you're stuck in limbo - but that's your own fault for not wanting to make an effort to play.
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Somewhat off topic, but I've seen the fallout of borderline players being bumped up:

Two guys in my circle were bumped up to 5.0; they are strong 4.5s but could not hang at 5.0. Luckily they did find a team to play on - not many strong 5.0s around, so there are enough opportunities for weak 5.0s and 4.5s playing up on 5.0 teams. They did poorly and got bumped back down after a year. So it all worked out ok.

But then I have a friend who is a strong 4.0 but got bumped up to 4.5. There's a fair number of 4.5s in my area so getting playing time at 4.5 is tough if you are weak. He only got to play a couple of matches and despite losing both badly he did not get bumped back down - maybe just not enough matches. He got pretty dispirited by the whole thing and has given up on USTA. Pity because he was really into it while he was a 4.0.

Not sure what the right answer is, that balances the desire to provide play opportunities while not opening the door to more cheating. Maybe be more lenient in allowing players to appeal down, but then (1) not allow such a player to play postseason, and (2) make them eligible for 3 strikes DQ?
 
OrangePower said:
Somewhat off topic, but I've seen the fallout of borderline players being bumped up:

Two guys in my circle were bumped up to 5.0; they are strong 4.5s but could not hang at 5.0. Luckily they did find a team to play on - not many strong 5.0s around, so there are enough opportunities for weak 5.0s and 4.5s playing up on 5.0 teams. They did poorly and got bumped back down after a year. So it all worked out ok.

But then I have a friend who is a strong 4.0 but got bumped up to 4.5. There's a fair number of 4.5s in my area so getting playing time at 4.5 is tough if you are weak. He only got to play a couple of matches and despite losing both badly he did not get bumped back down - maybe just not enough matches. He got pretty dispirited by the whole thing and has given up on USTA. Pity because he was really into it while he was a 4.0.

Not sure what the right answer is, that balances the desire to provide play opportunities while not opening the door to more cheating. Maybe be more lenient in allowing players to appeal down, but then (1) not allow such a player to play postseason, and (2) make them eligible for 3 strikes DQ?
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couldn't your 4.0 friend field a team of other 4.0's and play up at 4.5? that's what i've done. fortunately i got much better (ie. instead of getting bumped down), and i got recruited by folks on other teams after a decently successful 4.5 season),.. or find the weakest 4.5 team to play on - to get more matches (which is what i'm doing at the 5.0 level)
 
nytennisaddict said:
couldn't your 4.0 friend field a team of other 4.0's and play up at 4.5? that's what i've done. fortunately i got much better (ie. instead of getting bumped down), and i got recruited by folks on other teams after a decently successful 4.5 season),.. or find the weakest 4.5 team to play on - to get more matches (which is what i'm doing at the 5.0 level)
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Yeah, he could have tried to form and captain a new 4.5 team made of weak 4.5s and 4.0s playing up, and that's probably what I would have done in the same situation (and what I would do in the very unlikely event I ever get bumped up to 5.0!). But, it's not an easy thing to do, and not everyone has the time, ability, or desire to form and captain a new team. In my area, USTA does nothing to help teams form - the captain has to procure home courts, find all the players, etc. If you have access to courts via a club or something it's a bit easier, but then you are somewhat restricted in terms of getting players. Most public facilities are already full and don't have room to field new teams. Etc. Not saying it's impossible, but forming a new team does have significant obstacles and so it's easier said than done.

So my friend did end up joining a weak 4.5 team, but even then only got a couple of matches in. And the irony is that his absolute level of play as a 4.5 was worse than when he was a 4.0, because he just wasn't playing as much and frankly wasn't as motivated and into it any more.
 
nytennisaddict said:
couldn't your 4.0 friend field a team of other 4.0's and play up at 4.5? that's what i've done. fortunately i got much better (ie. instead of getting bumped down), and i got recruited by folks on other teams after a decently successful 4.5 season),.. or find the weakest 4.5 team to play on - to get more matches (which is what i'm doing at the 5.0 level)
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In Dallas, we have to have at least 50% players at 4.5 (or whatever level). They claim too many people complained about having poor matches. At least in a big market like Dallas, we have enough bottom feeder teams you can probably find one that is hurting for players. Small markets don't have that luxury.
 
nytennisaddict said:
hmm... if i got bumped to 5.0... presuming i would be a weak 5.0, there would be no need to "throw" matches... presuming a team would let me play (i have played on 5.0 teams), i'd lose (have lost) even giving my best effort.

presuming there was no team willing to let me play, i'd create (i have in the past when i first got bumped to 4.5), my own team (probably a mix of 4.5 and 5.0 players - sticking with the if-i-got-bumped-to-5.0-theme), and play "normally" - i'd probably get bumped down "naturally" - no need to throw.

for folks that got bumped up and can't find a team to play on AND don't want to run/recruit their own team (i'm presuming you know a bunch of folks that would welcome the opportunity to "play up")... then you're stuck in limbo - but that's your own fault for not wanting to make an effort to play.
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This is the problem. We are creating all these vague scenarios where it's ok to cheat in some but not ok to cheat in others.

It just results in our current scenario.
 
coyote said:
In Dallas, we have to have at least 50% players at 4.5 (or whatever level). They claim too many people complained about having poor matches. At least in a big market like Dallas, we have enough bottom feeder teams you can probably find one that is hurting for players. Small markets don't have that luxury.
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My district has a 60% rule but only if there are only 2 teams.

Ours is to prevent accommodation teams. One year there was a 2.5 playing 4.0 so the 4.0 team could go to district. The 4.0 team won the district if you're curious.
 
OrangePower said:
Yeah, he could have tried to form and captain a new 4.5 team made of weak 4.5s and 4.0s playing up, and that's probably what I would have done in the same situation (and what I would do in the very unlikely event I ever get bumped up to 5.0!). But, it's not an easy thing to do, and not everyone has the time, ability, or desire to form and captain a new team. In my area, USTA does nothing to help teams form - the captain has to procure home courts, find all the players, etc. If you have access to courts via a club or something it's a bit easier, but then you are somewhat restricted in terms of getting players. Most public facilities are already full and don't have room to field new teams. Etc. Not saying it's impossible, but forming a new team does have significant obstacles and so it's easier said than done.

So my friend did end up joining a weak 4.5 team, but even then only got a couple of matches in. And the irony is that his absolute level of play as a 4.5 was worse than when he was a 4.0, because he just wasn't playing as much and frankly wasn't as motivated and into it any more.
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i hear you, on the captaining... i captained for 2 seasons... and wow was that a a bunch of work!

it was fun/rewarding because it was all my buddies playing and drinking aftewards (and we had the same mindset, just play challenging matches - will work like crazy to win, but even if we come in last place, we'll have fun... not really interested in travelling to go to playoffs or nationals, etc...).

fast forward a bunch of years, we all have kids that are active, so we're coaching, driving our kids everywhere, helping with homework, etc... no time/interest to captain.

captains these days seem to either be:
1. guys playing up (ie. if i were bumped to 5.0 i'd captain a 5.0 team just to be on a team)
2. guys whose kids are older (eg. college+) - i still have a another 10yr+ before this applies to me :P
 
Startzel said:
This is the problem. We are creating all these vague scenarios where it's ok to cheat in some but not ok to cheat in others.

It just results in our current scenario.
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it's a broken system that is broken because it doesn't account for every edge case.
that said, it's not that terrible of a system... and i don't mind if folks are "playing through me" as they get up to and settle at the appropriate level. i still win because I get to play good players (isn't that the point of playing league, or tourneys, etc...).
i think for a small minority of mediocre folks, it's a problem because it prevents them from winning trophies against better players... to that i say, learn to play better if it means that much to you.

to say that it's cheating is a bit too dramatic.... since "cheating" has a connotation of having a serious moral flaw (ie. cheating at poker with an Ace up your sleeve, because this literally can lead to "stealing" money from your opponents).
 
Startzel said:
Why is it fair for you to cheat just so you can play tennis?
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in a sport like tennis, where it's hard enough to find good people to play with/against, i prefer inclusivity over fairness.
it's a "win" for me, if i can't win my local/national trophy, because instead i got beat up by a bunch of ex div1 grads working their way up to 5.0.
normally i'd have to pay for that experience :p (ie. lesson, tournament, etc...)
 
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Startzel said:
Should this attitude also apply for people that are being bumped up?

I'm going to get bumped this year. So I will be playing at a new level and should be one of the weaker players. So it's unlikely that good teams will want me nor play me if they do.

Should I just throw my matches so I can get bumped down next year to a level I will have ample playing time?
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The reason you're getting bumped up is presumably because your performance against your peers shows that you're better than most of them. Hopefully you relish this as a challenge to improve so that you're not stuck at the bottom of the next level.

Ultimately, whether you throw matches depends on your code of conduct and how you view being bumped up.

Also, your conclusion that good teams will not want/play you doesn't square with my observations in my league: everyone I know who got bumped up made it on to a team at the next level. Maybe you should spend some time networking and making yourself visible to the captains. Give them reasons for wanting you on their team: attend the drills they attend and do a little selling. Don't expect them to come to you.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
The reason you're getting bumped up is presumably because your performance against your peers shows that you're better than most of them. Hopefully you relish this as a challenge to improve so that you're not stuck at the bottom of the next level.

Ultimately, whether you throw matches depends on your code of conduct and how you view being bumped up.

Also, your conclusion that good teams will not want/play you doesn't square with my observations in my league: everyone I know who got bumped up made it on to a team at the next level. Maybe you should spend some time networking and making yourself visible to the captains. Give them reasons for wanting you on their team: attend the drills they attend and do a little selling. Don't expect them to come to you.
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It wasnt a real scenario.

I am getting bumped up and the best teams are already asking for me to play with them as I'm beating all their players in singles league. That's how USTA works.

It isn't the silo scenario everyone uses to justify their cheating.
 
OrangePower said:
But then I have a friend who is a strong 4.0 but got bumped up to 4.5. There's a fair number of 4.5s in my area so getting playing time at 4.5 is tough if you are weak. He only got to play a couple of matches and despite losing both badly he did not get bumped back down - maybe just not enough matches. He got pretty dispirited by the whole thing and has given up on USTA. Pity because he was really into it while he was a 4.0.
/QUOTE]

Just out of curiosity, do you think he might have gotten bumped down if he had played several tournaments and lost badly in those too? If he wanted to accelerate the bump-down process, that's one way to do it. And I don't mean that he should throw any matches: based on your description, he would lost soundly even if he was trying his hardest.
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Startzel said:
It wasnt a real scenario.

I am getting bumped up and the best teams are already asking for me to play with them as I'm beating all their players in singles league.
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Something doesn't add up: you, at level X, are already beating all of the players on the best X+0.5 teams? Doesn't that mean you're sandbagging to have stayed at level X all of this time? Or did you massively improve in 2016?

Or is this also not a real scenario?
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Just out of curiosity, do you think he might have gotten bumped down if he had played several tournaments and lost badly in those too? If he wanted to accelerate the bump-down process, that's one way to do it. And I don't mean that he should throw any matches: based on your description, he would lost soundly even if he was trying his hardest
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Here in NorCal tournaments don't count towards NTRP, AFAIK. And if you are <40 like my friend, only one league season per year counts (adult 18 & over). So if you don't get enough playing time in that one season, you're out of luck for another year.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Something doesn't add up: you, at level X, are already beating all of the players on the best X+0.5 teams? Doesn't that mean you're sandbagging to have stayed at level X all of this time? Or did you massively improve in 2016?

Or is this also not a real scenario?
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Yep, my last match at sectionals pushed me into the next level. Now I'm sandbagging at my current ntrp rating.
 
OrangePower said:
Here in NorCal tournaments don't count towards NTRP, AFAIK. And if you are <40 like my friend, only one league season per year counts (adult 18 & over). So if you don't get enough playing time in that one season, you're out of luck for another year.
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Bummer. I don't suppose there's any chance of bringing him back into the fold with a pep talk on how the process is more important than the winning? It's a shame for someone to lose enthusiasm just because they are temporarily over-rated. It will take some emotional fortitude to weather the storm [the slings and arrows of outrageous NTRP algorithms, if you will] but maybe you can help him through the rough patch?
 
Startzel said:
Yep, my last match at sectionals pushed me into the next level. Now I'm sandbagging at my current ntrp rating.
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The skill needed to beat all of the best X+0.5 teams' singles players while you are a X player would not just come from one match at Sectionals. That's serious skill that takes time to develop. Based on your description, you are already in the upper ranks of X+0.5.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Bummer. I don't suppose there's any chance of bringing him back into the fold with a pep talk on how the process is more important than the winning? It's a shame for someone to lose enthusiasm just because they are temporarily over-rated. It will take some emotional fortitude to weather the storm [the slings and arrows of outrageous NTRP algorithms, if you will] but maybe you can help him through the rough patch?
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Believe me I've tried. He has an open invitation to play on my 4.5 team, but he is too self conscious that he would be the weakest of the group by a fair margin. Even though I tell him nobody else cares. It's sad but I don't think there is anything else that I can do. And at this point he is so rusty that he is not even a good 4.0 any more.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
The skill needed to beat all of the best X+0.5 teams' singles players while you are a X player would not just come from one match at Sectionals. That's serious skill that takes time to develop. Based on your description, you are already in the upper ranks of X+0.5.
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Nope.

I played X and X+.05 this spring season to the best of my ability and my rating only improved by .03 during the regular season.

Districts got me up another .06. My last match at sectionals got me another .09 and into the new level. It is impressive because I've been on a great run since that match. The NTRP did a great job of pinpointing exactly when I crossed into the new level. It's a shame I wouldn't have known that without schmke.
 
Startzel said:
Nope.

I played X and X+.05 this spring season to the best of my ability and my rating only improved by .03 during the regular season.

Districts got me up another .06. My last match at sectionals got me another .09 and into the new level. It is impressive because I've been on a great run since that match. The NTRP did a great job of pinpointing exactly when I crossed into the new level. It's a shame I wouldn't have known that without schmke.
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I'm not talking about your NTRP: I'm talking about your statement that, at level X, you are already beating players who, based on your description, are in the upper parts of X+0.5. That means, skill-wise [not NTRP-wise], you should be almost double-dumped. What lowly X+0.5 player stands a chance against you, who have already dismantled the best X+0.5 players? Why should that guy not feel like you're a sandbagger?
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
I'm not talking about your NTRP: I'm talking about your statement that, at level X, you are already beating players who, based on your description, are in the upper parts of X+0.5. That means, skill-wise [not NTRP-wise], you should be almost double-dumped. What lowly X+0.5 player stands a chance against you, who have already dismantled the best X+0.5 players? Why should that guy not feel like you're a sandbagger?
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Are you ignoring that my ntrp matched my actual skill level almost perfectly?

How would I be sandbagging while playing up?
 
I went ahead and broke the women out by section. See http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2016/10/checking-usta-league-self-rated-women.html

Some sections look a lot like the national chart, but a few look a lot different. Caribbean has a lot of self-rated 2.5s and nearly 2/3 get bumped up is one that really stands out. Hawaii has a lot that self-rate at 3.5, but they also have a lot that tend to be bumped up. Do these players tend to self-rate incorrectly? Or is this just an peculiarity of the ratings system with small populations and a ratings "island" with little connection to the rest of the sections?
 
Startzel said:
How would I be sandbagging while playing up?
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Because you've already said you're beating those players and not only median X+0.5 players but the best X+0.5 players ["he best teams are already asking for me to play with them as I'm beating all their players in singles league"]. So you should be playing X+1.0. That's how Startzel would have analyzed it, IMO.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Because you've already said you're beating those players and not only median X+0.5 players but the best X+0.5 players ["he best teams are already asking for me to play with them as I'm beating all their players in singles league"]. So you should be playing X+1.0. That's how Startzel would have analyzed it, IMO.
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Per Startzel - if you are not losing, you are cheating.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Because you've already said you're beating those players and not only median X+0.5 players but the best X+0.5 players ["he best teams are already asking for me to play with them as I'm beating all their players in singles league"]. So you should be playing X+1.0. That's how Startzel would have analyzed it, IMO.
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Fair enough.

It really confirms my suspicions about nationals if I'm X+1.0 and I'm not good enough for X sectionals :(
 
Startzel said:
Fair enough.

It really confirms my suspicions about nationals if I'm X+1.0 and I'm not good enough for X sectionals :(
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You are neglecting to acknowledge that the players that progress to sections and nationals are the tail of a distribution and assuming that those in the higher end of tail of the distribution at the end of the season started the season near the same level.

In reality, various factors are in play: luck, improvement in skill over the season, and a competitive process that selects strongly for the teams whose players improved the most over the season.

Of course, sandbagging is a possibility, but you have not proved it until and unless you disprove these other possible confounding factors.

Averaged over a year, I am a 3.5. But I have days when observers might conclude I'm not even a 3.0. And I have really good days too. At the team level or individual level, success in playoff formats requires getting hot at the right time, so those who progress far against a given field are most likely those who improve dramatically over the course of a season AND who are getting both hot and lucky at just the right time.

So players who both move the center of their bell curve and play at the top end of their tail may appear to be sandbagging when they are not.
 
schmke said:
This is the time of year when the complaints about the self-rated players at Nationals come out. So I thought I'd do some analysis on whether self-rated players generally do a good job, or if they tend to over/under rate on average.

See http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2016/10/do-usta-league-self-rated-players-self.html for the full blog, but it seems that men are more likely to under-rate or sandbag resulting in more self-rated players being bumped up than down, particularly at lower levels, while women are more likely to over-rate and have more self-rated players get bumped down.
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Do your stats take into account players that self rate at a lower level, but only plays at a level up? (Ex. Self rates as a 4.5, but only plays 5.0, so subsequently gets bumped to a 5.0).
 
Doc Hollidae said:
Do your stats take into account players that self rate at a lower level, but only plays at a level up? (Ex. Self rates as a 4.5, but only plays 5.0, so subsequently gets bumped to a 5.0).
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I did not exclude these or count them any differently. Someone that did what you describe would just be counted as someone that self-rated too low.
 
We should really ask this question about ourselves too, right? For instance, when I started USTA after a decade break for college/grad school/life, and a severe shoulder injury, I didn't know a thing about USTA adult leagues or ratings. Just reading the descriptions I obviously thought I was around a 5.5 (because everything in those descriptions is subjective and relative). My buddies who got me into tennis were playing and wanted me to join their team. So I self rated according to the questionnaire for fall league (which doesn't earn you a computer rating in my section).

So, over two falls and one spring season I lost one match at my self rate level, but I also played up during my first spring season and went 3-3. I know at least one poster would say I was sandbagging. However, I didn't knowingly try to cheat the system and even played up after that first fall season.

Unless you have something on the self rate questionnaire that puts you into a certain category, just joining your friends' team at whatever level they play (assuming you are competitive with them) is probably how we all started. Right?
 
therecanbeonlyone said:
We should really ask this question about ourselves too, right? For instance, when I started USTA after a decade break for college/grad school/life, and a severe shoulder injury, I didn't know a thing about USTA adult leagues or ratings. Just reading the descriptions I obviously thought I was around a 5.5 (because everything in those descriptions is subjective and relative). My buddies who got me into tennis were playing and wanted me to join their team. So I self rated according to the questionnaire for fall league (which doesn't earn you a computer rating in my section).

So, over two falls and one spring season I lost one match at my self rate level, but I also played up during my first spring season and went 3-3. I know at least one poster would say I was sandbagging. However, I didn't knowingly try to cheat the system and even played up after that first fall season.

Unless you have something on the self rate questionnaire that puts you into a certain category, just joining your friends' team at whatever level they play (assuming you are competitive with them) is probably how we all started. Right?
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This isn't an issue for one player every once in awhile. The problem is when it occurs with the same clubs and captains repeatedly. You can only use the "I didn't know better" so many times before it's obvious cheating.
 
I don't think it's a question of guys sandbagging, as much as it is an issue of established mens teams not being as accepting of new folks (until they've proven themselves).
i mean, if self rating to 5.0, and 5.5 meant that i could automagically get access to really good players to play with/against, i would.
but the reality is that most 5.0+ would laugh, and i'd never get play time.
the safe bet is always to selfrate low (for acceptance).

women i think are more socially accepting. there are less players around, so folks are always looking for players... i bet there is alot of, "just play up or self rate <at a higher level>" so you can join my team. that doesn't really happen on guys teams. if you're weak, you're ostracized (ie. no one calls you to play, or puts you in the lineup). boys learn that early on the first time captains are chosen to choose sides for say a dodgeball game in gym... girls on the otherhand (based on coaching my daughter's team) are more willing to choose someone just to not hurt their feelings.
 
nytennisaddict said:
I don't think it's a question of guys sandbagging, as much as it is an issue of established mens teams not being as accepting of new folks (until they've proven themselves).
i mean, if self rating to 5.0, and 5.5 meant that i could automagically get access to really good players to play with/against, i would.
but the reality is that most 5.0+ would laugh, and i'd never get play time.
the safe bet is always to selfrate low (for acceptance).

women i think are more socially accepting. there are less players around, so folks are always looking for players... i bet there is alot of, "just play up or self rate <at a higher level>" so you can join my team. that doesn't really happen on guys teams. if you're weak, you're ostracized (ie. no one calls you to play, or puts you in the lineup). boys learn that early on the first time captains are chosen to choose sides for say a dodgeball game in gym... girls on the otherhand (based on coaching my daughter's team) are more willing to choose someone just to not hurt their feelings.
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There may be a lot of truth to this. I didn't know anyone that played USTA when I initially signed up as a 4.0 self-rate in 2011. I asked the league coordinator to share my contact info with captains...didn't get picked up by any teams, so played just Flex league that year. The following year, I appealed down to 3.5 and got picked up by one team. I did well enough to get bumped to 4.0, and had three rough seasons at 4.0. When I got bumped back down to 3.5 this year, I was Mr. popular in my area. I now know a lot of people within USTA, but think I'll just start my own 4.0 team if I get bumped back up to 4.0 next year.
 
I still think it's worth noting that very few people want to be the worst player at their highest rating. People would rather be the best player at their lowest.

4.5+ are small circles. Just like 2.5-3.0 circles too. If you end up self rating as a 2.5 or 5.5, you better hope you're good. If not, you are not going to be on the handful of teams that exist at that level. The only real comfort levels are 3.5-4.0 where some team, somewhere, is looking for players. Here, you do not get invited to a team as a 2.5 or 4.5+ without some sort of tryout. I honestly will not invite anyone without seeing them hit first. Does that make me an ****? Not really... I have a very solid core of players and I really dont need to have any more. The more players I have, the less play time my regulars get. If my rosters do get bloated, at least the players im adding will be decent, so my regulars will have a fun time playing even if they play a few matches less.
 
schmke said:
This is the time of year when the complaints about the self-rated players at Nationals come out. So I thought I'd do some analysis on whether self-rated players generally do a good job, or if they tend to over/under rate on average.

See http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2016/10/do-usta-league-self-rated-players-self.html for the full blog, but it seems that men are more likely to under-rate or sandbag resulting in more self-rated players being bumped up than down, particularly at lower levels, while women are more likely to over-rate and have more self-rated players get bumped down.
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Is it possible that a player that was self-rated gets moved down one whole point? I have a player that hadn't played for 12 years in a competitive match. He self-rated as a 5.0 and then lost a match to a 4.5 player 6-0, 6-0 and then lost two more matches in straight sets badly with a love set in each.
 
netlets said:
Is it possible that a player that was self-rated gets moved down one whole point? I have a player that hadn't played for 12 years in a competitive match. He self-rated as a 5.0 and then lost a match to a 4.5 player 6-0, 6-0 and then lost two more matches in straight sets badly with a love set in each.
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It is possible, but doesn't happen often.
 
The USTA guidelines state that if you are unsure which level to rate yourself at, then you should pick the higher level. This is the argument against the whole "but I don't want to be the worst player on the team" position. While I agree that a lot of guys just self rate at the level of their friends so they can play (and I don't blame them!), an experience captain KNOWS when one of their players doesn't belong at that level.

So with all that in mind, I have joined the ranks of people that oppose allowing self rated players to participate in the post season. If you self rated and are good enough to be in the line-up in a playoff match, then you violated the self-rating guideline I referred to in the first sentence above. If USTA is unwilling to do that, then I want to see them start punishing captains when their players are DQ'd or when self-rating grievances are upheld against them.
 
Moveforwardalways said:
I think self rates just make honest mistakes sometimes, and sometimes "do what they have to do". I think self rates who come in intentiqlly low in order to win nationals or whatever are uncommon. The NTRP system is not intuitive and it is sometimes hard to tell where you should be until you play for a while.
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I disagree. I think that vast majority of players that self-rate low know exactly what they are doing and they are doing it to win. I've seen it many, many times. I saw an ex-high school player with a kick serve that he places well and it bounces at the base of the back fence and is the 80 mph range self rate 3.5. The rest of his game was solid too. Every 3.5 player on his team knew he was above 3.5 and he did too. I was on a 4.0 team that recruited 2 ex-college players who had played #1 and #2 singles. They were 2 years out of college. They won all their singles matches and the captain was telling them to throw some games so they wouldn't get bumped. We won straight through the city championships with these guys never losing a match. They knew they should have been 4.5 level. There may be a few self raters who just don't know better but my experience is vast majority know what's going on.
 
TennisCJC said:
I disagree. I think that vast majority of players that self-rate low know exactly what they are doing and they are doing it to win. I've seen it many, many times. I saw an ex-high school player with a kick serve that he places well and it bounces at the base of the back fence and is the 80 mph range self rate 3.5. The rest of his game was solid too. Every 3.5 player on his team knew he was above 3.5 and he did too. I was on a 4.0 team that recruited 2 ex-college players who had played #1 and #2 singles. They were 2 years out of college. They won all their singles matches and the captain was telling them to throw some games so they wouldn't get bumped. We won straight through the city championships with these guys never losing a match. They knew they should have been 4.5 level. There may be a few self raters who just don't know better but my experience is vast majority know what's going on.
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There are definitely people who self-rate wayyy too high and there are a good amount of people who take the "bare minimum" self rate requirements based on experience. I have girls who had to come in at 4.5 due to college experience and cant win a single match. The only thing I can tell them is to tough it out and appeal every year.

I've seen less than a handful of "obvious" self-rate abusers, but there are quite a few C-rate abusers. I know of people who have been 3.0 for 10 years. It's pretty simple, really. Dumping in adult league cements your permanent 3.0 C-rate. Play USTA leagues that dont count towards NTRP and destroy them. Use your 3.0 USTA rating for non-USTA leagues like WTT, ect.

The career dumpers are the worst. The people who self-rate low generally have a short run by which time their NTRP corrects itself. If a 4.5 wants to play 3.5 for a few years, then 4.0 for a few years, only to quit when they get bumped to 4.5 I dont really care. I just hate seeing "career dumpers" who never go away.
 
The whole problem with the system is that its applying a discrete variable to what is, in reality, a continuous variable. As such there is no true 4.0. There is a bunch of people with variable tennis skills all being applied a number based on a a whole load of poorly defined criteria. Not only is it a continuous variable but it is also a moving target as one's tennis skills are rarely a static phenomenon and change from year to year (sometimes week to week).

So I'd strongly suggest anyone entering leagues for a chance to win nationals, temper their enthusiasm. You are playing in a bogus system to begin with.
 
kylebarendrick said:
then I want to see them start punishing captains when their players are DQ'd or when self-rating grievances are upheld against them.
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Wasn't there a practice that when an army lost a battle, they would kill every 10th remaining man? You know, as "incentive" to not lose the next battle? Maybe the same thing can be done in USTA: for every person that gets DQd, a random person on the team is bumped up. Would that discourage the sandbagging? I don't know. Maybe it would provide at least some "incentive" not to.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Wasn't there a practice that when an army lost a battle, they would kill every 10th remaining man? You know, as "incentive" to not lose the next battle? Maybe the same thing can be done in USTA: for every person that gets DQd, a random person on the team is bumped up. Would that discourage the sandbagging? I don't know. Maybe it would provide at least some "incentive" not to.
Click to expand...

The better team would be to bump everyone up on a team. That would help discourage these super teams.
 
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