Serena: beaten by lucky shots

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

I doubt most of you will even follow tennis after the Sisters retire - since it doesn't appear there will be another notable black player...

Illogical.

1 I doubt your little theory, since i've followed tennis since the 70's, and if I ever had a preference over the years, you are likely to find it in my username.

2. That you assume a mere consideration of the Williams sisters' situation by some--or mere fandom expressed by others instantly means a purely racial interest in tennis is (ironically enough) based on a racially motivated view that anything other than the usual negative judgments "must" mean some sort of racial peference.

 

[shell]

Ahh, but in their minds, Henin can do no wrong, when it is evident the woman added new chapters to the Bad Sportsmanship Handbook throughout her career. What's worse is that Henin committed her acts on-court, not some interview, where alleged bad sportsmanship does not change the course of a match......yet, how many criticize her?



Agreed.

Plenty of people knocked that act, pages were written about it, forums crashed with arguments (other site) - but you see, it was 6 years ago.....this thread is about an interview a couple of days ago.

I find this kind of funny......I call it the "but, but, but" rebutal. For anything Serena ever says, her way out for some fans is an act by Henin 6 and 3 years ago respectively that have nothing to do with this issue.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Plenty of people knocked that act, pages were written about it, forums crashed with arguments (other site) - but you see, it was 6 years ago.....this thread is about an interview a couple of days ago.

I find this kind of funny......I call it the "but, but, but" rebutal. For anything Serena ever says, her way out for some fans is an act by Henin 6 and 3 years ago respectively that have nothing to do with this issue.

People still whine about Indian Wells. That was not yesterday, either, but you did not mention how some will constantly dig that original incident up when it suits their purpose.

The point you miss is that some here will separate Serena'a interviews--cherry picking what they want to percieve as negative, meanwhile others in this thread questioned exactly how they reached their conclusions when posting the full interview, or reading comments without reading things into the comments.

 

[The_Question]

So what are the "lucky shots"? Like hit the net and bounce it over, then drop??

 

[Bilbo]

You are aware that you're randomly repeating and missing out characters when you type, aren't you? Have you inspected your keyboard for damage?

Also, try being a little less heavy-handed.

lol, believe me champ, the reason i leave out characters when i type, is becuz this isnt as serious to me as it is to u. I understand that for u, typing on these forums is veeerrrrryyyyyy important.

 

[Bilbo]

Sad that Blakefan, Thunder, and grass_for_cows are so wrapped up in race - and assume we are. If Serena were white and pulled what she did - we'd have the same lack of respect for her. It's just like the OJ 'thing' - if a white former beloved athlete had been acquitted by an idiot jury of murder we would have been just as outraged. Many blacks live by the teachings of MLK that state that Blacks should favor their own - and they call us racist? Would be funny if it weren't ironic and sad.

All you guys (gals?) can bring up is Henin. 'The Hand' incident was overblown - if Serena saw it, she should have stopped serving. And Henin's retirement against Mauresmo is a non-issue - she couldn't compete - I was glad she did it - saved me 15 minutes of my life. And you guys shouldn't be bringing that up - The Sisters bagged a semifinal match in Indian Wells because they didn't want to play each other - there was no mention of a 'knee injury' until a few minutes before the match.

I doubt most of you will even follow tennis after the Sisters retire - since it doesn't appear there will be another notable black player...

wat is this fool talking about? wat... MLK? I am black dumbass. lol... and idk wat ur talking about, or who informed u of this backward ass crap ur talking about. U should delete ur post... its full of ignorance, foolishness, and racism.

 

[shell]

People still whine about Indian Wells. That was not yesterday, either, but you did not mention how some will constantly dig that original incident up when it suits their purpose.

The point you miss is that some here will separate Serena'a interviews--cherry picking what they want to percieve as negative, meanwhile others in this thread questioned exactly how they reached their conclusions when posting the full interview, or reading comments without reading things into the comments.

No, I didn't bring the IW incident up because it is rather different. In essence, it gets relived again each year that the sisters don't play that mandatory tournament - so fair game to discuss. Similar to if Henin had raised her hand in every GS tournament after 2003 - but that didn't happen.

And, no, I have not missed the point regarding Serena's interviews. I personally think this one quote was taken out of context - I rather think she meant it jokingly. But she has blabbed too many times for people to take what she says seriously. And also to make many people not like her as a tennis player. But when the arguement starts turning into - if you don't like Serena because of her constant running of the mouth, and you do like Henin for her playing style, then you must be rascist - that's when it gets funny to me. The circular logic.

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

Sad that Blakefan, Thunder, and grass_for_cows are so wrapped up in race - and assume we are. If Serena were white and pulled what she did - we'd have the same lack of respect for her. It's just like the OJ 'thing' - if a white former beloved athlete had been acquitted by an idiot jury of murder we would have been just as outraged. Many blacks live by the teachings of MLK that state that Blacks should favor their own - and they call us racist? Would be funny if it weren't ironic and sad.

All you guys (gals?) can bring up is Henin. 'The Hand' incident was overblown - if Serena saw it, she should have stopped serving. And Henin's retirement against Mauresmo is a non-issue - she couldn't compete - I was glad she did it - saved me 15 minutes of my life. And you guys shouldn't be bringing that up - The Sisters bagged a semifinal match in Indian Wells because they didn't want to play each other - there was no mention of a 'knee injury' until a few minutes before the match.

I doubt most of you will even follow tennis after the Sisters retire - since it doesn't appear there will be another notable black player...

It's not about that, it's the extra jabs that get thrown in there. She's ugly, she's fat. Last I checked, Henin and Clijsters were no fashion models, and Seles wasn't exactly Sharapova like figure wise back in her day.

Saying MLK taught that blacks favor their own just shows how ignorant you are about the issues of race here in America. Racism still exists to this day, whether it's overt or covert. It's inherent in American society. And it goes both ways, for all races.

I agree that Serena's a poor sport, but it seems that this is all some focus on and never give her credit for her great accomplishments. People want all athletes to be PC and fit into a certain box, and whenever any athlete breaks that mold of what people think is ok to say, people attack them. So this is nothing new.

It just seems like w/ the attacks against Serena, it gets to a more personal level that is not necessary in any fair discussion ab tennis.

I'm not saying that every person has to be a Serena fan, but to bring up things like looks and weight when discussing her, while overlooking the missteps and poor sportsmanship of people like Henin, Hingis, Navritalova and never mentioning them, seems like a double standard to me.

And your last comment about never following tennis...just exposes the inherent racism that still exists in some people to this day. Funny how you claim racism doesn't exists while making a racist comment like that.

 

[grafselesfan]

I'm not saying that every person has to be a Serena fan, but to bring up things like looks and weight when discussing her, while overlooking the missteps and poor sportsmanship of people like Henin, Hingis, Navritalova and never mentioning them, seems like a double standard to me.

It is Navratilova and Navratilova did not show poor sportsmanship.

 

[drakulie]

I agree w/ the point a/b Henin.

Don't take this as if I'm picking on you, cause I'm not.

However, I keep reading people bringing up the Henin "hand incident".

I really don't understand what the concern is about. That she didn't admit she put her hand up?? So what?? The fact Serena saw her put up her hand and still served is bad sportsmanship on her part as well by trying to take advantage of someone who is clearly not ready to return. What's worse is, after she faulted, she tried to bully the chair ump into giving her another serve.

Fact is, the chair ump didn't see it, and therefore didn't call timeout. Furthermore, even if the chair ump did see it, doesn't mean she would have called a time out.

 

[Chadwixx]

Lots of personal attacks coming from williams fans. Last time i checked randomly accusing people of being racists and calling them dumbasses is against the rules of this forum.

Jamesblakefan, if you think people make fun of serena because she is black, you got a chip on your shoulder. She makes herself a target with her dumb comments. How many people here make fun on monfils and other black players who dont make asses of themselves? Ever wonder why she takes more heat on these forums than venus? Please open you mind and free yourself from this nonsense of "its only because she is black". Id say the same to bilbo, but dude is no smarter than the chair im sitting in

Btw ppl still call navratalova "Martin" based on her sexual preference and manly figure.

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

Lots of personal attacks coming from williams fans. Last time i checked randomly accusing people of being racists and calling them dumbasses is against the rules of this forum.

Jamesblakefan, if you think people make fun of serena because she is black, you got a chip on your shoulder. She makes herself a target with her dumb comments. How many people here make fun on monfils and other black players who dont make asses of themselves? Ever wonder why she takes more heat on these forums than venus? Please open you mind and free yourself from this nonsense of "its only because she is black". Id say the same to bilbo, but dude is no smarter than the chair im sitting in

I said it's ok to go after her dumb comments. But to throw in stuff a/b how she's ugly, lazy, fat, out of shape, mindless basher, etc is over the line.

And yes, saying there will never be another notable black player after the WS is a racist comment, so I'm calling it as I see it.

The comments a/b what she says being poor sportsmanship isn't off base, it's the extra jabs a/b her looks, her being lazy, etc that are over the line and not relevant to the discussion a/b her tennis.

 

[drakulie]

^^For what it's worth, I think she looks great in that white swimsuit she posed in.

 

[Deleted member 21996]

for the record. i dispise Hingis: she is a white swiss... i must be either racist or nationalist? but im not sure ...

anyone in the mood to find ulterior motives and prejudice labels for me?

 

[OroDeSantoro]

I said it's ok to go after her dumb comments. But to throw in stuff a/b how she's ugly, lazy, fat, out of shape, mindless basher, etc is over the line.

And yes, saying there will never be another notable black player after the WS is a racist comment, so I'm calling it as I see it.

The comments a/b what she says being poor sportsmanship isn't off base, it's the extra jabs a/b her looks, her being lazy, etc that are over the line and not relevant to the discussion a/b her tennis.

You have a lot of work to do if you're going to call people out on irrelevance and immature insults...

 

[drakulie]

for the record. i dispise Hingis: she is a white swiss... i must be either racist or nationalist? but im not sure ...

anyone in the mood to find ulterior motives and prejudice labels for me?

I hate all these damn haters!

Ooops. :shock: does that make me a racist??

 

[Deleted member 21996]

I hate all these damn haters!

Ooops. :shock: does that make me a racist??

yes, you are some sort of prejudiced person.... i'm just not sure what!

just wait for the sociology experts to let us know!

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

for the record. i dispise Hingis: she is a white swiss... i must be either racist or nationalist? but im not sure ...

anyone in the mood to find ulterior motives and prejudice labels for me?

OK, I'll try to put this very nicely so that people comprehend what I am trying to say.

Calling out Serena for her poor sportsmanship is NOT racist. I never said it was racist, so stop trying to make it like I did.

When people throw in insults about how she's fat, lazy, ugly, etc, into discussions that are supposed to be PURELY about her tennis, that does seem a bit suspect.

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

yes, you are some sort of prejudiced person.... i'm just not sure what!

just wait for the sociology experts to let us know!

What's your point? That it's wrong for me to say a person that says something like "There will never be another notable black player once the sisters retire" is NOT racist?

Ok, it's perfectly cool to say black people will never watch tennis once the Williams Sisters retire. Perfectly ok. Me saying that's racist, what world am I living in?

 

[r2473]

I love when serena loses.

Then just don't watch slams.

 

[OroDeSantoro]

OK, I'll try to put this very nicely so that people comprehend what I am trying to say.

Calling out Serena for her poor sportsmanship is NOT racist. I never said it was racist, so stop trying to make it like I did.

When people throw in insults about how she's fat, lazy, ugly, etc, into discussions that are supposed to be PURELY about her tennis, that does seem a bit suspect.

Not to create more of an argument, but since when has this discussion been purely about her tennis?
For the record, I'm a politically correct serena hater :mrgreen:

 

[Lionheart392]

OK, I'll try to put this very nicely so that people comprehend what I am trying to say.

Calling out Serena for her poor sportsmanship is NOT racist. I never said it was racist, so stop trying to make it like I did.

When people throw in insults about how she's fat, lazy, ugly, etc, into discussions that are supposed to be PURELY about her tennis, that does seem a bit suspect.

Maybe they do genuinely believe that she is fat, lazy and ugly. Still doesn't have anything to do with race.

 

[Deleted member 21996]

What's your point? That it's wrong for me to say a person that says something like "There will never be another notable black player once the sisters retire" is NOT racist?

Ok, it's perfectly cool to say black people will never watch tennis once the Williams Sisters retire. Perfectly ok. Me saying that's racist, what world am I living in?

Not the point i'm adressing. no. it's not cool to say there will not be another good black player (or asian or caucasain or whatever). for all i know there are some young promises coming that might just break thru, and i sure hope so.

but like i said:

I dont like serena's game, but like i said, she is a poor sports, and so is hingis, henin (and i do like her)...

i do like venus, and shes is not 10% of the trash mouth her sister his, as i do like tsonga, who is one of my favourites, just like i love Na li's or Shrichapan... or that i like Bartoli and i also believe that she is fat and a choker!

dude... i even have a long term relation with a african black girl! so it's safe to say im no racist no?

in a nutshel... i see your point and i understand it. there might even be some posters who do dislike her based on some sort of racial prejudice, but i am certainly not one of them and i dont think there are many of them.

so lets agree not to generalize. it's the principle to all prejudices!

ps: relax... m'kay????

 

[Grass_for_cows]

there might even be some posters who do dislike her based on some sort of racial prejudice, but i am certainly not one of them and i dont think there are many of them.

so lets agree not to generalize. it's the principle to all prejudices!

Hi there are posters in this thread who said or strongly implied that:

1. Blacks and hispanics are at least %20 less intelligent than comparable whites.
2. MLK taught that blacks should favor their own.
3. Black people will return to their sports or something when the Williams sisters retire.
4. Serena wins tennis matches based purely on her physical strength.

I don't know if there was name-calling as in some other Serena threads, but people regularly call her "ape" or "gorilla."

So you think there might be some posters who have racist motivations?
And besides no one is making the facile connection: Hate Serena = hate black people.

Anyway I don't mean to say tennis talk should be about political correctness or ethics, but even if the talk is just about tennis it's important to keep these things in mind because people regularly ignore the reality about Serena's tennis game because of her race, and at the same time overrate or inflate Justine effing Henin of all people as the GOAT of all sports and all activities ever done by humans.

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

Not the point i'm adressing. no. it's not cool to say there will not be another good black player (or asian or caucasain or whatever). for all i know there are some young promises coming that might just break thru, and i sure hope so.

but like i said:

I dont like serena's game, but like i said, she is a poor sports, and so is hingis, henin (and i do like her)...

i do like venus, and shes is not 10% of the trash mouth her sister his, as i do like tsonga, who is one of my favourites, just like i love Na li's or Shrichapan... or that i like Bartoli and i also believe that she is fat and a choker!

dude... i even have a long term relation with a african black girl! so it's safe to say im no racist no?

in a nutshel... i see your point and i understand it. there might even be some posters who do dislike her based on some sort of racial prejudice, but i am certainly not one of them and i dont think there are many of them.

so lets agree not to generalize. it's the principle to all prejudices!

ps: relax... m'kay????

OK. I'm not saying that you are racist, nor was I saying that anyone that hates Serena is a racist. Sorry if it came off as such.

Just saying that some people that say certain things about Serena, not a majority of the people btw, but a minority, may have a racial motivation to some of the things they say. Is that fair enough to say?

 

[The-Champ]

I hate it when Ree gets unlucky with those lucky shots from her opponents.


Anyway!!
Pope Benidictus' cd is out in December....Grab a copy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[shell]

OK, I'll try to put this very nicely so that people comprehend what I am trying to say.

Calling out Serena for her poor sportsmanship is NOT racist. I never said it was racist, so stop trying to make it like I did.

When people throw in insults about how she's fat, lazy, ugly, etc, into discussions that are supposed to be PURELY about her tennis, that does seem a bit suspect.

JBfan, the comments about Serena being "fat" and "lazy" are related to tennis. Serena is a professional athlete, who has at times, let herself get out of shape. You have seen the discussions on this. If it makes you feel better, take a look at the descriptions of Bartolli.

"Ugly" is a personal perspective. But every female tennis player gets her looks critiqued on an everyday basis - never related to tennis.

 

[Dutch-Guy]

This thread has taken a wrong (racial) turn.

 

[pmerk34]

This thread has taken a wrong (racial) turn.

What do you expect when people call her a gorilla and lazy? Those are historically pejorative terms to describe blacks.

 

[Dutch-Guy]

What do you expect when people call her a gorilla and lazy?

Gael Monfils too got called monkey when he beat Roddick at the FO.So sad.

Those are historically pejorative terms to describe blacks.

I know that.I'm white as they come and i like Serena as a player and as a person.I'm a huge supporter of her.She isn't a phoney like many of her peers you know.She say things the way she sees them,whether people agree with it or not.
I think that the mods should take a stand against needless insults(fat,lazy,overweight,etc) towards her.

 

[OroDeSantoro]

I think that the mods should take a stand against needless insults(fat,lazy,overweight,etc) towards her.

That suggestion is a bit absurd... how are those needless insults if they are directed at a professional athlete? Her weight and work ethic directly affect her playing ability. Why should the mods be responsible for defending serena's honor?... that's just absurd

 

[Deleted member 21996]

food for though is good for humans of all races

Hi there are posters in this thread who said or strongly implied that:

1. Blacks and hispanics are at least %20 less intelligent than comparable whites.

ill take your word for that since i did not read the full thread. shame on those who make such claims. flat out unacceptable - i feel insulted in those opinions too since i'm Portuguese-Canadian, therefore 50% hispanic (as in being of Hispania, Greater iberic peninsula: Portugal+Spain)

2. MLK taught that blacks should favor their own.

that is not true as far as i know. quite the opposite! MLK was a man of peace and understanding AFAIK

3. Black people will return to their sports or something when the Williams sisters retire.

dont even know where ot start. once again, shame on those who post and think such absurdities. i dont even know what they mean by "their Sports"

So you think there might be some posters who have racist motivations?

there might... i don't and that is for granted! ignorance is as you know infinite.

And besides no one is making the facile connection: Hate Serena = hate black people.

anyone making such connections would drop to the same level as those who made racial remarks!

Anyway I don't mean to say tennis talk should be about political correctness or ethics, but even if the talk is just about tennis it's important to keep these things in mind because people regularly ignore the reality about Serena's tennis game because of her race, and at the same time overrate or inflate Justine effing Henin of all people as the GOAT of all sports and all activities ever done by humans.

let them think their stupid ways. be the bigger man as i try to do everyday!

OK. I'm not saying that you are racist, nor was I saying that anyone that hates Serena is a racist. Sorry if it came off as such.

Just saying that some people that say certain things about Serena, not a majority of the people btw, but a minority, may have a racial motivation to some of the things they say. Is that fair enough to say?

yes sir. that is very fair indeed!

 

[jackson vile]

Maybe they do genuinely believe that she is fat, lazy and ugly. Still doesn't have anything to do with race.

Has anyone involved race? If so they should be banned! Serena sucks becuase of her attitude.

 

[flying24]

OK, I'll try to put this very nicely so that people comprehend what I am trying to say.

Calling out Serena for her poor sportsmanship is NOT racist. I never said it was racist, so stop trying to make it like I did.

When people throw in insults about how she's fat, lazy, ugly, etc, into discussions that are supposed to be PURELY about her tennis, that does seem a bit suspect.

Sorry but have you been living under a rock. On this forum those type of comments are thrown out towards MANY different players, 95% of them white of course. Attributing those type of comments around here to racism is laughable. Those type of comments and words are probably inappropriate but they are overused and frequently repated about on TW.

 

[thejackal]

Don't lump Venus in with her little (but bigger) sister. She seems pretty down-to-earth.

in general yes, I like venus' personality better. but after one match (maybe against clijsters) she attributed her loss to her opponent "playing badly" and causing her to lose her concentration. the logic is just hilarious

 

[T. H. Park]

she didnt even care in 05 or 06, and 07 too. It was only in the later parts of 08 and 09 that serena really rededicated herself, hence her dominance in slams through those 1 and a half years.

I would suggest that you have some respect for the other players. You sound like her actually, which I am not surprised to witness now.

As I said, I think Serena is one of the best, but it's definitely not like, when she wants to win she wins. That's plainly delusional. But maybe fans are delusional.

 

[Bilbo]

I would suggest that you have some respect for the other players. You sound like her actually, which I am not surprised to witness now.

As I said, I think Serena is one of the best, but it's definitely not like, when she wants to win she wins. That's plainly delusional. But maybe fans are delusional.

The only time she wants to win is in Slams:|.... and she generally wins those...

 

[T. H. Park]

The only time she wants to win is in Slams:|.... and she generally wins those...

The stats do not support your point of view unfortunately. You do not know what she wants or does not want. But is safe to say that none of the professional tennis players, no matter what professional tournament, want to lose. They lose because they get beaten.

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

The stats do not support your point of view unfortunately. You do not know what she wants or does not want. But is safe to say that none of the professional tennis players, no matter what professional tournament, want to lose. They lose because they get beaten.

What are the stats? Compare her record in her career in slams, to the record in non slams. Her win pct is probably higher in slams than non slams. There are some non slams, like Miami which she cares a/b b/c it's close to her home, but outside of that, she mainly uses the non slams to try new things in her game in preparation for the slams.

Pete Sampras had the same "all a/b the slams" mentality.

 

[Chadwixx]

We should have 1 tournament a year to decide who the best player is. Players can have 50weeks off every year and injury will no longer be an issue. Trying to blend in here with absurdity.

If all the players treated the wta tour with the same respect as the williams sisters, it would no longer be in business. Maybe a good thing actually.

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

We should have 1 tournament a year to decide who the best player is. Players can have 50weeks off every year and injury will no longer be an issue. Trying to blend in here with absurdity.

If all the players treated the wta tour with the same respect as the williams sisters, it would no longer be in business. Maybe a good thing actually.

Don't be asanine. Look @ how many players burn out due to the grind of the WTA tour - Hingis, Clijsters, Henin, Jankovic is burning out now.

Yet the WS have been smart and not given into the play every week mentality some would like them to have, and instead focused on the big tournaments. And it's worked out for them, theyre still at the top of the game into their late 20s, at an age where most are long retired on the WTA tour.

I don't see why people criticize them for not being tennis playing robots like some others. It's worked out for them in the long run.

 

[vandre]

quick, someone check stosur's racquet bag for rabbits' feet!

 

[T. H. Park]

What are the stats? Compare her record in her career in slams, to the record in non slams. Her win pct is probably higher in slams than non slams. There are some non slams, like Miami which she cares a/b b/c it's close to her home, but outside of that, she mainly uses the non slams to try new things in her game in preparation for the slams.

Pete Sampras had the same "all a/b the slams" mentality.

She is definitely stronger in Majors. That is nothing new. It's just that some folks (you know who you are: saying things like she would've/could've beaten x/y/z 6-1, 6-1 or whatever in a major tourney) think that whenever she goes into a major she wins. Simply not the case. Stats and records don't support that notion:

AO:
W09, Q08, F07, W06, 3r05, W04

RG:
Q09, F08, 3r07, QF06

Wimby:
W09, F08, QF07

USO:
W08, QF07, 4r06, 4r05

 

[T. H. Park]

... she mainly uses the non slams to try new things in her game in preparation for the slams.

I don't believe that is true. Maybe a little bit at best. She simply is not that dominant. If you have a record like Federer (during his peak years), then I can see your point. He was winning everything in sight, quite literally. I don't think that was ever the case for Serena. Another player that has had a great record was Graf who was winning everything in sight (and not just majors):

900–115 (win/loss) in singles

Serena currently is:
433–93 in singles

So, not even close to the performance of Graf. Although her tennis career is far from over, Serena probably is already past her peak but still playing incredibly well. However, her singles record will with most likelihood get worse not better. Hence, her inability to win tourneys like Graf or Fed is not because she does not try, but probably because she is not that consistent. What is certain is that none of the top players ever want to lose any match regardless of what tourney it is.

She loses because the other players beat her fair and square. And it has little to do with trying out "new things." If that were indeed the case, she would've/should've gone deep in every major. She did not and does not. Hence, that logic seems flawed and is more likely used as an excuse to make oneself (Serena and her fans) feel better. I suppose it works.