Serena leaves press conference in tears....

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I think today, that sentiment would apply more towards people who don’t watch tennis ie those who harbor negative thoughts about “pop culture icon” Serena without having actually watched her. Of course, the IW incident can’t be denied (and yes, for the record, that was very shameful), as that was a tennis audience, but I think it’s a shame to label people on this forum racist if they haven’t otherwise shown any indication of being so.
I think you can understand English, yeah? In either event, I repeat, I have read people on this forum say racist stuff about Serena. Yeah. So, no, it's not restricted to people who don't know anything about tennis. Being a tennis fan doesn't unfortunately make one not likely to be bigoted.
 

joekapa

Legend
Serena may be the greatest female tennis player of all time. If she was an a*hole sometimes, it's probably because she had to be. Her outburst about being a mother, came with her realisation that her dominating days were over.

Doesn't take away from her greatness though.
 

joekapa

Legend
I felt for her today. It's shows how vested these supreme athletes are in the sport they play. Taking away this life, or realizing that the end of the road is near, would be heartbreaking. Especially someone of her caliber.
 
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Deleted member 22147

Guest
What about Rosol ? I heard no one likes him.

This is really pathetic from Murray. It is exactly the type of rhetoric that flies around children's schools, often from passive-aggressive bully types.

Rosol, for what it's worth, gets on well with a lot of players on the circuit.
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
I’m not sure that holds water after she beat Halep in the last round.
Serena can still beat anyone, but these days she can also lose to anyone

Still a great player who nobody wants to face, but it's been apparent for a while that she doesn't have the consistency to win 7 matches in a Slam
Osaka is younger stronger and a better player than halep. You're only as good as your last match
...in their last match Halep beat Osaka.
 

Swingmaster

Hall of Fame
I'm not convinced it's over.

She could eke out another Wimbledon title? Naomi is hell for her right now but that might not matter at Wimbledon. I know many players cause her problems these days but I'm not sure the time has come and gone just yet.

One more, I say!
It’s Osaka and a big cluster of ladies underneath her. Serena has as much of a chance as anyone else not named Osaka. So unless Osaka is becoming an unstoppable force, Serena has a shot.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
It’s Osaka and a big cluster of ladies underneath her. Serena has as much of a chance as anyone else not named Osaka. So unless Osaka is becoming an unstoppable force, Serena has a shot.
True. But would you have thought both Kerber and Halep would beat Williams in a Wimbledon final with relative ease?
I certainly didn't.
 
This is really pathetic from Murray. It is exactly the type of rhetoric that flies around children's schools, often from passive-aggressive bully types.

Rosol, for what it's worth, gets on well with a lot of players on the circuit.
Yeah, which goes to show that the most outspoken social justice advocate on the ATP can also - and without contradiction - be a bully in other matters and contexts.
Someone in another post said that there's nothing about being a tennis fan that prevents you from being bigoted, which is absolutely right, just like there's nothing about being an outspoken defender of equality that prevents you from acting in an intimidating way towards other people for other reasons. One of the great misconceptions these days is the constant conflation between defending virtue and being virtuous.
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
Graf has the stigma of the shortened career of Seles. Seles had her number and was coming in fast. And then a crazed fan ended it.
Honestly, this is a bit overplayed. Seles' stabbing really supercharged the mythos around her.

Seles was a great competitor to Graf, and her tough three-set wins in Paris and Melbourne were excellent. What is often forgotten is that Graf trounced her at Wimbledon in between.

We were undeniably robbed of a great rivalry, but it's a big stretch to say that Seles had Graf's number. Graf was still arguably the favourite in their matches up until the stabbing.
 

Swingmaster

Hall of Fame
True. But would you have thought both Kerber and Halep would beat Williams in a Wimbledon final with relative ease?
I certainly didn't.
She might’ve choked a bit, but just saying it’s a crapshoot after Osaka. Then again there are a lot of women who can win one, so maybe Serena has about a 12% chance of winning each remaining 2021 slam. Also, Osaka seems like the type of woman who would might kind of hand one to Serena for the story.
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
What would people say if Djokovic gained 20kg and walked out at the US Open wearing a "cat suit" with "GOAT" on the back, "The Machine", "Strongest" etc?
Did Djokovic have a living human grow inside him for 9 months then give birth, almost die and return to tour 5 months later? No? Then don't ever make such a pathetic comparison again. I mean wow.
 

Pass750

New User
And people wonder why she is like she is. Believe me, I hate the "discrimination card" and the "race card" as it happens a lot where I'm at and often overplayed...BUT it's blantantly obvious that Serena is hated and discriminated against. And Serena knows she is hated. She knows people wants her to retire.

Like Court, she is goat because they both stand up for their beliefs inspite of the hate they endure. True champion and a strong woman. Stronger than so many wussies on this board.

As for your weak and snotty remark regarding the money. As if she's doing this for the money. What she wants money cannot buy.

But you will never get that.
Yet her sister is mostly loved by fans.
 
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Deleted member 22147

Guest
Did Djokovic have a living human grow inside him for 9 months then give birth, almost die and return to tour 5 months later? No? Then don't ever make such a pathetic comparison again. I mean wow.
What planet are you on?

Williams gave birth in 2017. She's been on the tour since the 90s.
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
What planet are you on?

Williams gave birth in 2017. She's been on the tour since the 90s.
Are you drunk? She gave birth in September 2017 and returned to tour in February 2018. Now answer my question. Or do you admit your post was pathetic to compare what she's gone through to Djokovic and you belittling her makes you look like a twat?
 
Black people have always had to be 'extra nice' to avoid being bullied by racists. Serena is obviously not 'extra nice' so any misbehaviour is met with outrage.
More than simply a race, Serena represents a certain establishment and status quo of tennis that has been challenged by other players, especially Osaka who is also of African heritage. Were it a white player instead of Osaka challenging her and beating her this often, you can easily imagine how even more tense things would be now (I think we can all agree on that). Serena doesn't need to be extra nice, not just because she's an unapologetic black woman (which is a good thing), but because her place in the sport - and that's more related to celebrity status - allows her to be and do whatever she damn well likes.

She's not in a position of fragility here, which I think is a good thing, but the appropriation of her "blackness", "womanhood" and "motherhood" by the powers to be have emptied her of all the revolutionary/transformative power - another form of non-fragility that is the opposite of being comfortable and a symbol of the status quo - she still wielded when I was a big fan of hers, back in the early 2000's. The very American "inspirational" discourse about everyone being able to accomplish their dreams (as long as those dreams are aligned with the late capitalist narrative), from a position of power, is not in the same category as your accomplishments themselves being a big "f*** you" to the establishment, as was once the case for Serena. I gather from your avatar that you might be a lefty, so I suppose you're familiar with the standpoint - that I share to some extent - that speaking truth to power from a position of segregation is the eternal struggle of the left, and that demanding the acquiescence of others from a position of power (what Serena does today) is already, in itself, an abandonment of lefty principles.

In a revolutionary position, even your worst instincts can sometimes be justified or used in some way to further the struggle for a just cause, but in a position of power - with all the establishment behind you - your worst instincts tend to be glossed over, justified, or even disguised as victimhood/courage/healthy competitiveness by all the apparatus that is there to protect your brand. She can more or less do what she wants because, while pointing the accusatory finger at a minority of obvious bigots who criticise her for clearly indefensible reasons, she knows full well every outburst, every bit of pettiness, every holier than thou attitude, will be excused or at least reinterpreted as victimhood/courage/healthy competitiveness by all those who have a vested interested in her brand.

But this is a systemic problem related to how our societies appropriate and defuse any potentially revolutionary force, I just use Serena as a visible expression of the phenomenon itself. In a way, this goes well beyond her, and it would be too much to ask of her to not fall in the same traps everyone else does.
 
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Wander

Professional
Very different on court persona though.
Yes, they are very different people. But I think it goes to show that a young tennis player can idolize Serena for her achievements and the positive things she's done without necessarily internalizing the negative aspects.
 
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BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
The problem are not the tears but that again she shows that she is a sore looser. Had she given credit to Osaka (which would be the minimum after her bad behavior in the past) people wouldn’t care about her tears so much. Her idiotic husband didn’t do her any favor either with wearing this pathetic fanboy shirt.
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
Yet her sister is mostly loved by fans.
When Venus was winning grand slam titles and regularly reaching Wimbledon finals in-particular, I seem to recall that she received plenty of vitriol herself. Of course there is a clear difference between disliking a player (perfectly reasonable and fine - I didn't hide the fact that I disliked Sharapova for example), and over the top hatred / vitriol (not reasonable).

Alongside her very difficult personality from Serena which is of course a factor, I'm sure the fact that she generally hasn't been a major contender to win grand slam titles in singles for more than a decade now, 2017 aside, is also a major reason why she receives far more goodwill / far less vitrol than Serena.

I'd wager that quite a few people across the internet in general who claim that they like Venus now, weren't so fond of her during her grand slam winning glory days.

I personally have always preferred Venus over Serena, was delighted that she won that incredible 2008 Wimbledon final, and really wish that she could have ended up with more Wimbledon titles than Serena so that she had 'something' over her sister tennis / career-wise.
 
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Deleted member 22147

Guest
Are you drunk? She gave birth in September 2017 and returned to tour in February 2018. Now answer my question. Or do you admit your post was pathetic to compare what she's gone through to Djokovic and you belittling her makes you look like a twat?
Drunk? I'm wondering if you're on drugs.

I'm not referring to her post 2017. I'm referring to the way she has been throughout much of her career.

Serena was overweight, wearing embarrassing outfits and behaving like a self-obsessed, pompous jackass well before she gave birth.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Yes, they are very different people. But I think it goes to show that a young tennis player can idolize Serena for her achievements and the positive things she's done without necessarily internalizing the negative aspects.
Absolutely. Take the best bits and eliminate the worst.
 
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Deleted member 22147

Guest
When Venus was winning grand slam titles and regularly reaching Wimbledon finals in-particular, I seem to recall that she received plenty of vitriol herself. Of course there is a clear difference between disliking a player (perfectly reasonable and fine - I didn't hide the fact that I disliked Sharapova for example), and over the top hatred / vitriol (not reasonable).

Alongside her very difficult personality from Serena which is of course a factor, I'm sure the fact that she generally hasn't been a major contender to win grand slam titles in singles for more than a decade now, 2017 aside, is also a major reason why she receives far more goodwill / far less vitrol than Serena.

I'd wager that quite a few people across the internet in general who claim that they like Venus now, weren't so fond of her during her grand slam winning glory days.

I personally have always preferred Venus over Serena, was delighted that she won that incredible 2008 Wimbledon final, and really wish that she could have ended up with more Wimbledon titles than Serena so that she had 'something' over her sister tennis / career-wise.
Venus was far more liked than Serena, aside from the usual glory hunting fanatics. People used to moan about the grunting, but aside from that people did not view her as arrogant, self-infatuated and the other traits people often ascribe to Serena.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The usual mantra around here is 'nice guys finish last', but ladies must be ladies apparently.

Venus was far more liked than Serena, aside from the usual glory hunting fanatics. People used to moan about the grunting, but aside from that people did not view her as arrogant, self-infatuated and the other traits people often ascribe to Serena.
 
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Deleted member 22147

Guest
The usual mantra around here is 'nice guys finish last', but ladies must be ladies apparently.
Nope. An arrogant, self-infatuated man is just as bad as an arrogant, self-infatuated woman.
 
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mavsman149

Hall of Fame
Hope Serena gets one more slam, people keep saying she needs to retire, let Serena decide when she wants to retire. She is still a top 10 player and has reached SF’s and Finals of slams since coming back, she clearly isn’t as good, but she’s coming very close!

I thought she looked in good form here, she could definitely win a slam this year, especially if she avoids Naomi.
 

fed1

Professional
Hope Serena gets one more slam, people keep saying she needs to retire, let Serena decide when she wants to retire. She is still a top 10 player and has reached SF’s and Finals of slams since coming back, she clearly isn’t as good, but she’s coming very close!

I thought she looked in good form here, she could definitely win a slam this year, especially if she avoids Naomi.
This is maddening !! It is said after every time she loses another Grand Slam match, it's not one player who takes out Serena it's the winning seven matches!!! The depth and draws in Grand Slams is getting tougher. I know that when you listen to ESPN or Tennis Channel they seem to think that only one woman plays on the WTA Tour but there's a pretty damn good field and it's only getting deeper!!
 
. I gather from your avatar that you might be a lefty, so I suppose you're familiar with the standpoint - that I share to some extent - that speaking truth to power from a position of segregation is the eternal struggle of the left, and that demanding the acquiescence of others from a position of power (what Serena does today) is already, in itself, an abandonment of lefty principles.
Brilliantly put, as always.
 

smalahove

Hall of Fame
Not weighing in on the Serena debate per se, but one measure of a champion's greatness is how well they handle defeat and how they acknowledge the victor. This has always been a tricky one, for the more epic the champ, the more likely they're a fierce competitor with a larger-than-life will to win, and the harder this is.
 
Brilliantly put, as always.
Well, I'm not saying I'm right, but it's my (Gramscian, perhaps) interpretation of leftism.
Today, the accepted and overwhelming definition of leftism is just "rivalry with the right for acquisition of power".
Being on the left, for me, is exercising criticism of the injustices of power structures, which is why Stalinism (with its love of authority, hierarchy, etc) can't be anything but a right-wing phenomenon. Which is also a nice way to oppose the silly and tired argument from the right that nazism and communism are both left-wing, but without resorting to the defence of Stalin or to an idiotic comparison based on intentions or number of deaths.
 

terribleIVAN

Hall of Fame
it would be too much to ask of her to not fall in the same traps everyone else does.
What a crock of BS.

Don't be too quick to throw everyone in the same bath.

Not every player is self-centered, entitled, foul mouthed, delusional or a sore loser.

She's in a position of privilege and should set the example for others, not the least to other African Americans; instead, with her fake woke incessant virtue signaling like standing for women, mothers, fairness, tolerance instead of racism, she's become the poster woman for the KU KLUX Clan recruitment office.

By incessantly claiming to defend some values, she's gone full circle and betrayed them.

That's on her, and her only.
 

Mr.Lob

Legend
Sad to watch at the end. Gets emotional after they ask about retirement.....

Made the semifinals of a major rather easily. Serena won't be retiring anytime soon.

Props that she worked hard and is in much better shape. But, obviously her legendary mental strength has faltered. She gets to semifinals and finals, then the nerves take over. And, let's face it, old age as well. Much more difficult to maintain the intense focus and consistency needed over a period of 2 weeks.
 
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What a crock of BS.

Don't be too quick to throw everyone in the same bath.

Not every player is self-centered, entitled, foul mouthed, delusional or a sore loser.

She's in a position of privilege and should set the example for others, not the least to other African Americans; instead, with her fake woke incessant virtue signaling like standing for women, mothers, fairness, tolerance instead of racism, she's become the poster woman for the KU KLUX Clan recruitment office.

By incessantly claiming to defend some values, she's gone full circle and betrayed them.

That's on her, and her only.
Attention all posters, read this comment. Read it well.
 
What a crock of BS.

Don't be too quick to throw everyone in the same bath.

Not every player is self-centered, entitled, foul mouthed, delusional or a sore loser.

She's in a position of privilege and should set the example for others, not the least to other African Americans; instead, with her fake woke incessant virtue signaling like standing for women, mothers, fairness, tolerance instead of racism, she's become the poster woman for the KU KLUX Clan recruitment office.

By incessantly claiming to defend some values, she's gone full circle and betrayed them.

That's on her, and her only.
All fine and dandy but crying in a press conference is not virtue signalling or any of the other things you list. It's pretty normal and people would be able to see it as normal if it wasn't Serena. If anything Serena says or does brings back memories of 2009/11/18 USO and makes posters react with way more aggression than is required, that's also on said posters and not on her.
 
All fine and dandy but crying in a press conference is not virtue signalling or any of the other things you list. It's pretty normal and people would be able to see it as normal if it wasn't Serena. If anything Serena says or does brings back memories of 2009/11/18 USO and makes posters react with way more aggression than is required, that's also on said posters and not on her.
She kind of has lost her right to shed tears, what with winning 23 slams, being ultra-wealthy, behaving worse than Connors, Mac, Nastase, Fognini and Kyrgios in many of her matches, and having proven not to respect most other fellow players... Or line-judges, or fans, or anyone.

So, no, her crying in front of the PC press is NOT the same as anyone else doing it... Tears are not all the same. It's about WHO cries and WHY. As in everything else, all situations are different.
 
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fed1

Professional
Made the semifinals of a major rather easily. Serena won't be retiring anytime soon.

Props that she worked hard and is in much better shape. But, obviously her legendary mental strength has faltered. She gets to semifinals and finals, then the nerves take over. And, let's face it, old age as well. Much more difficult to maintain the intense focus and consistency needed over a period of 2 weeks.
Tough match with Potapova in 3rd round, a war with Sabalenka in 4th round, these matches add up and at 40 really handicap her in the later rounds, . Where was the great fitness and movement last night, non existent against a player who hits a bigger more consistent ball. She hasn't won a set against a legit top player in a Slam since this quest for 24 resumed after giving birth. Stop ignoring the depth of the field, that and father time will prevent her from getting #24.
 
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