Serena vs Maria Domination...Technical Flaws?

[user92626]

It's hard for me to imagine this kind of domination. Even the ownages on the ATP aren't this bad.

If I played with someone repeatedly like that I would never allow such domination to occur. Then again I can't dominate any peer in such degree either.

I want to ask whether there's some technical flaw in Maria S. game? Why can't Maria change? Is this really a physical limitation of Maria S.?

 

[Fintft]

To me it looks more of a bad matchup for Sharpova, since she's got a similar style with Serena, except that the later does everything a bit better.

A weaker player, but with a different style might stand a better chance (i.e. Simona Halep beat Serena, but than again Simona Halep didn't get Dimitrov from Serena like Sharapova did, nor is Halep so full of herlself like Sharapova etc- Enough extra factors to pump Serena up lol).

 

[LeeD]

Obviously, Maria S is a one trick pony right now, refusing to mix in spins, net play, some heavy loopy topspins, and reacting to the serve locations.
Power for power, Serena can beat most men, is stronger than most men, and bigger too. "Bigger" as in wide and strong.
Maria S's one trick get's her past 97% of WTA, so it's not a bad trick to possess.

 

[Fintft]

Obviously, Maria S reacting to the serve locations.

This last bit really puzzled me watching Sharapova returning probably worse than me.

 

[Buford T Justice]

And why does Maria stand so close to the baseline to return Serena's serve!?!?!? I simply cant figure that one out. I am certainly no tennis coach/advisor, but it certainly seems prudent to try backing up a bit and see if this produces a least a little more success. There is nothing to lose really......if she tries it and still loses...well it would have been #19 anyway

 

[LeeD]

Is it me, or is Maria and Roger Federer very weak when fully extended on both sides? Obviously, Berdyck and Serena can really hit the lines, but it shows during groundstroke rallies also. Fed uses the forehand desperation chop too often, as did Maria, while Tomas can do it really solidly well, and Serena seems to not need that shot more than a couple times a match.

 

[Buford T Justice]

To me it looks more of a bad matchup for Sharpova, since she's got a similar style with Serena, except that the later does everything a bit better.

That might be the root problem. Serena is simply a better version of Maria. No shame in that (Id be happy to win 5 games against Serena in a GS too)! (Actually....Id be happy to win 1).

But, considering its been, what...like a decade or more since Maria has beaten Serena, it seems appropriate to try a different approach.

Perhaps take the Arthur Ashe approach to Connors at Wimbledon 1975.....Ashe knew (he stated as such) that he was quite sure his usual power game was not going to beat Connors in the finals. So, he did the reverse....gave Connors slow junk down the middle. It obviously worked.

Now, all that said, Ashe had the versatility to play the game outside of his usual bounds and who knows if Maria also does. That is not an insult, just a recognition that it is very hard to play the game 180 degrees out from how you've generally always played it for (in her case) decades.

 

[LeeD]

As for standing back, Serena can hit lines as well as Federer, so it's not a normal strategy to stand way back against a server who paint's the wide lines.

 

[Buford T Justice]

As for standing back, Serena can hit lines as well as Federer, so it's not a normal strategy to stand way back against a server who paint's the wide lines.

Sure....but its also not normal to try and take a 200+ kmh serve early either! Shes had zero luck with that.....so make Serena paint lines to get the service winners. If an opponent can hit the lines every time, then you are not going to break serve no matter what you do.

 

[LeeD]

You and I have the luxury of armchair QB after the fact, a nice place to sit and judge.
Maria depends on getting the serve back before the server is fully ready, so she can pounce on the next ball. If she stands way back, and returns Serena's serve, she is now standing way back, which means a long run to cover short angle CC's and DTL shots, which Serena seems capable of hitting. Maria is just shrinking the court, so she doesn't have to run or reach quite as far. It's her game, her strategy, and she's still top 4, isn't she?

 

[user92626]

Is it me, or is Maria and Roger Federer very weak when fully extended on both sides?

Yeah, Fed looks weak when he has to run.

In the same token Novak looks like in full control.

 

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

Serena can return, Sharapova can't serve.

Serena can run things down, Sharapova doesn't know how to use angles and open up the court.

Serena can hit lines and open up the court, Sharapova moves like an ogre.

Serena can mix it up, Sharapova only knows how to be a banshee from the baseline.

 

[mightyrick]

The comparison of Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova doesn't come down to technical flaws. This is comparing a Tier-1 great to someone who is not a Tier-1 great. Sharapova probably isn't even a Tier-2 great. There is absolutely nothing Sharapova could do to beat Serena Williams. Serena Williams only beats herself. That is the way it is with Tier-1 greats who are in prime form. You don't beat them. They beat themselves and they lose... or they beat you and you lose.

Superman either flies or doesn't fly. The only way Lois Lane flies is if Superman makes it happen.

 

[user92626]

Serena can return, Sharapova can't serve.

Serena can run things down, Sharapova doesn't know how to use angles and open up the court.

Serena can hit lines and open up the court, Sharapova moves like an ogre.

Serena can mix it up, Sharapova only knows how to be a banshee from the baseline.

Against Radwanska, who places the ball well and can run all day, Sharapova suddenly can do all the things you just said. Sharapova really owns Radwanska, who owns everyone else outside of top 10!

For power game , Sharapova also has a wining H2H against Azarenka. What gives!

 

[Buford T Justice]

You and I have the luxury of armchair QB after the fact, a nice place to sit and judge.

Of course.

Those who can, DO.
Those who cant, SPECULATE. LOL

Maria depends on getting the serve back before the server is fully ready, so she can pounce on the next ball. If she stands way back, and returns Serena's serve, she is now standing way back, which means a long run to cover short angle CC's and DTL shots, which Serena seems capable of hitting. Maria is just shrinking the court, so she doesn't have to run or reach quite as far. It's her game, her strategy, and she's still top 4, isn't she?

Yes, the strategy works 99% of the time. No denying the overall results. But, if the 99% successful strategy is wholly unsuccessful in certain circumstances (in this case against a against a certain opponent), then that still seems grounds (from a logical perspective) to try something else.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Australian Open match stats.

Spoiler Alert - Some scores might be displayed on pages of this website.

http://www.ausopen.com/en_AU/scores/stats/day14/2501ms.html

 

[Fintft]

Maria depends on getting the serve back before the server is fully ready, so she can pounce on the next ball. If she stands way back, and returns Serena's serve, she is now standing way back, which means a long run to cover short angle CC's and DTL shots, which Serena seems capable of hitting. Maria is just shrinking the court, so she doesn't have to run or reach quite as far. It's her game, her strategy, and she's still top 4, isn't she?

Offering the server diffrent looks maybe by changing her return position (something that Nadal as well has been criticized for not doing, but Sharapova has coaches with more credentials than uncly Tony).

 

[user92626]

Australian Open match stats.

Spoiler Alert - Some scores might be displayed on pages of this website.

http://www.ausopen.com/en_AU/scores/stats/day14/2501ms.html

Interesting that Maria's stats against Serena and Belinda (previous match) are pretty similar -- the stuff Maria has control over, serves' speeds.


I guess that implies Maria's level doesn't decrease but pales against Serena.

 

[sureshs]

The comparison of Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova doesn't come down to technical flaws. This is comparing a Tier-1 great to someone who is not a Tier-1 great. Sharapova probably isn't even a Tier-2 great. There is absolutely nothing Sharapova could do to beat Serena Williams. Serena Williams only beats herself. That is the way it is with Tier-1 greats who are in prime form. You don't beat them. They beat themselves and they lose... or they beat you and you lose.

Superman either flies or doesn't fly. The only way Lois Lane flies is if Superman makes it happen.

That is too harsh. Masha has a Career Slam. Tier 1 vs 2 comparisons are good if there are many people in both. Serena is the sole occupant of Tier 1, so it is unfair to her opponents.

 

[Tight Lines]

The comparison of Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova doesn't come down to technical flaws. This is comparing a Tier-1 great to someone who is not a Tier-1 great. Sharapova probably isn't even a Tier-2 great. There is absolutely nothing Sharapova could do to beat Serena Williams. Serena Williams only beats herself. That is the way it is with Tier-1 greats who are in prime form. You don't beat them. They beat themselves and they lose... or they beat you and you lose.

Superman either flies or doesn't fly. The only way Lois Lane flies is if Superman makes it happen.

This +1 although I wish Sharapova would have mixed her shots with slices and loopier shots.

 

[LeeD]

Maria can beat anyone on the WTA tour not named Serena.
Who else can beat Serena? Some slice and dice her to a slow agonizing boredom match, but that's not BEATING Serena, it's boring Serena to a slow and painful hum drumm set.
Only ATP can beat Serena, because Serena is the fastest, strongest, quickest, athlete on the WTA tour.

 

[Booger]

Sharapova

Serena

 

[LeeD]

Anyone care to guess Serena's actual weight?
I'm thinking, around 175 when she's thin in the waist, and 15 more when she's pudgy and out of shape.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

One more thing that may make the match up more unfavourable for Masha is the balance. To my eyes, Masha seems the more long legged of the two and while this may help cover court quickly it can also hamper quick unit turn. The upper-lower body split for Serena appears to be more evenly balanced. So esp in long rallies moving side to side she is the one who will come out on top. This is on top of having a better serve and return so there's nowhere to go for Masha, really.

 

[LeeD]

Kinda like a Isner, Ivo, Janko, Anderson body type vs a Fed, DJ, Murray, Kei, Nadal type.

 

[user92626]

One more thing that may make the match up more unfavourable for Masha is the balance. To my eyes, Masha seems the more long legged of the two and while this may help cover court quickly it can also hamper quick unit turn. The upper-lower body split for Serena appears to be more evenly balanced. So esp in long rallies moving side to side she is the one who will come out on top. This is on top of having a better serve and return so there's nowhere to go for Masha, really.

Sounds like Serena's physique is more ideal than Maria's!

What about comparing to the rest of the field? The entire field with endless shapes and forms doesn't have anything that can match Serena's?

 

[PittsburghDad]

There has probably never been a single time that Serena wasnt fully engaged and mentally prepared for Maria. For a couple different reasons probably. And at that point, Serena just simply does every single thing a bit better than Maria. There is no chance Maria catches Serena on an "off day."

 

[LeeD]

Have I ever mentioned that Serena is the biggest, baddest, strongest, fastest, quickest, and a good tennis player?

 

[boramiNYC]

I don't think Maria developed the best technique for her body. For one, for her height her serve could have been much more potent if she had a great technique like isner. But at this point, I don't think she seriously believes she has a chance. That just limits everything.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

Serena = LeBron
Maria = Kevin Love

Ain't no way Kevin will ever take LeBron 1-on-1.

 

[LeeD]

How about ....Serena, Lebron.
Maria, Jermaine Oneal.
Kevin Love can actually almost get physical once in a while.

 

[Mr.Lob]

Sharapova

Serena

Glass Joe? No way. Sugarpova is at least Bald Bull.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Sounds like Serena's physique is more ideal than Maria's!

What about comparing to the rest of the field? The entire field with endless shapes and forms doesn't have anything that can match Serena's?

That's a good point to ponder. Can't readily think of someone on the tour with the balance of Serena. Maybe Clitsjers but she didn't have the serve and definitely not the mental strength. Likewise Henin had great balance and movement but was too little to threaten Serena's dominance.

 

[oble]

I don't think Maria developed the best technique for her body. For one, for her height her serve could have been much more potent if she had a great technique like isner. But at this point, I don't think she seriously believes she has a chance. That just limits everything.

I thought she did have a very good serve early in her career, but multiple shoulder injuries caused her to change her serve several times and it hasn't been the same again.

 

[Mack-2]

I just can't understand how a PROFESSIONAL tennis player can double fault that much. I would understand if it is a good returner she's going against (Serena) but she tends to double fault against almost everyone. I don't care if you've had shoulder surgery, that was years ago. It's ridiculous.

Apart from that, Sharapova insists on going for every single shot no matter the incoming ball. She tends to be late a lot of times, especially against Serena, due to the pace of the incoming ball. No change in swing whatsoever. She can play this way against 95% of the WTA and win but not against Serena Williams.

 

[dominikk1985]

It's hard for me to imagine this kind of domination. Even the ownages on the ATP aren't this bad.

If I played with someone repeatedly like that I would never allow such domination to occur. Then again I can't dominate any peer in such degree either.

I want to ask whether there's some technical flaw in Maria S. game? Why can't Maria change? Is this really a physical limitation of Maria S.?

Maria has some technical flaws but the reason she gets dominated so much is mental. Maria usually is a mentally strong Player that can always come back even if she Plays crappy and down but against serena she just doesn't believe she can win against her.

williams is losing against Players who are much worse than Maria, I think she is just super confident and focussed against her. I also think that serena got extra motivated by Maria beating her at a Wimbledon final aged 17. that was a huge blow in the face for serena and gave her extra Motivation. that is a pattern you often see with her. serena loses an upset against a Player on fire and then she is really pumped up and wins the next 4-5 and then it is really hard to come back mentally. serena loses matches but I think there is no Player with more than 3-4 games played having a positive record against her (and that includes Players like venus, henin, clijsters, Capriati, Davenport, azarenka...)

BTW Maria beat her twice at Age 17 leading their h2h 2-1 after 04 so it's not that she had a bad start. many thought she would be the new dominator back then.

I also heard rumors that serena might be jealous that Maria makes more Money due to advertisements (sharapova is the highest earning WTA Player in history and makes more than any WTA and all but the top3 ATP Players) contributing to her Motivation but I'm not sure about that.

 

[RetroSpin]

Serena serves 120+. Maria doesn't. Serena can punish Maria's second serve at will. Maria can't.

Maria is a below average mover but wins matches by jerking opponents corner to corner. Her serve and ground strokes are good enough to get defensive replies against most opponents. Serena is an elite mover, despite her size, and her shots are heavy enough that Maria cannot redirect them consistently. Plus, Maria's pace doesn't bother her.

Maria is an aggressive player but her weapons are next to useless against Serena. Basically it is a case of a bully running into a bigger bully. Very unpleasant for her pyschologically.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I just can't understand how a PROFESSIONAL tennis player can double fault that much. I would understand if it is a good returner she's going against (Serena) but she tends to double fault against almost everyone. I don't care if you've had shoulder surgery, that was years ago. It's ridiculous.

Apart from that, Sharapova insists on going for every single shot no matter the incoming ball. She tends to be late a lot of times, especially against Serena, due to the pace of the incoming ball. No change in swing whatsoever. She can play this way against 95% of the WTA and win but not against Serena Williams.

Sorry but I've had shoulder surgery 30 years ago and still have nothing on my serve to this day. If the shoulder doesn't feel 100% stable its not going to externally rotate and then power through the motion. Sharapova has never been the same since her surgery and I suspect the shoulder isn't 100%. Some of that may be her fault since she is a self confessed workout avoider.

Sharapova loses to Serena because she hasn't adapted her game to beat someone that does what she does at a higher level. Beating Serena comes down to frustrating her. Foot speed, change of pace shots, good serve placement. Those are the keys. Baseline bashers will always struggle against the baseline basher that's bigger, stronger, faster than they are.

Sharapova has three options. Convince Serena to retire, work on on all-court game a la Milos or get bigger, stronger and faster by committing to working out more.

 

[Tight Lines]

I just can't understand how a PROFESSIONAL tennis player can double fault that much. I would understand if it is a good returner she's going against (Serena) but she tends to double fault against almost everyone. I don't care if you've had shoulder surgery, that was years ago. It's ridiculous.

I think she tends to hit two first serves. So the double faults are understandable. I am sure she and her team do the calculation against a particular player and if she can win higher percentage with the first serve as a second serve vs. a true second serve, then she is making the right call.

Harry

 

[Moveforwardalways]

What WTA player is not dominated by Serena though? Serena loses, what, 1 or 2 matches per year? I feel it's a little unfair jumping on Sharapova for not beating Serena when no one on tour can beat Serena either. Sure, it's been a decade since Sharapova beat her, but how many people have beaten Serena over the past decade at all? Honest question, I haven't looked at the data, but I would bet there is a small number of players that beat Serena, and for anyone who did it was an upset.

 

[user92626]

What WTA player is not dominated by Serena though? Serena loses, what, 1 or 2 matches per year? I feel it's a little unfair jumping on Sharapova for not beating Serena when no one on tour can beat Serena either. Sure, it's been a decade since Sharapova beat her, but how many people have beaten Serena over the past decade at all? Honest question, I haven't looked at the data, but I would bet there is a small number of players that beat Serena, and for anyone who did it was an upset.

This goes to show that men are much more ...what's the word to describe resisting oppression, domination ..

The ATP men (top ones anyway) seem to feel uncomfortable with Djokovic's domination and wow to make a difference, and it's only been a couple years. You don't hear this kind of noise with the WTA and it's been a decade or so.

 

[user92626]

Sharapova loses to Serena because she hasn't adapted her game to beat someone that does what she does at a higher level. Beating Serena comes down to frustrating her. Foot speed, change of pace shots, good serve placement. Those are the keys. Baseline bashers will always struggle against the baseline basher that's bigger, stronger, faster than they are.

Sharapova has three options. Convince Serena to retire, work on on all-court game a la Milos or get bigger, stronger and faster by committing to working out more.

Serena doesn't get frustrated unless she's losing, like in those matches where she was out of control and threatened the line lady or argued with the umpire and eventually lost to Stossur. So first thing first, they need to consistently win points against her ...first.

I notice that when Sharapova plays against Serena, Shara tends to rush and get off balance a lot. Even then, many sets between them were pretty even/competitive. But it's so amazing that the results have been the same for over 10 years.

 

[dominikk1985]

This goes to show that men are much more ...what's the word to describe resisting oppression, domination ..

The ATP men (top ones anyway) seem to feel uncomfortable with Djokovic's domination and wow to make a difference, and it's only been a couple years. You don't hear this kind of noise with the WTA and it's been a decade or so.

Apart from last year Serena's dominance was not that bad. Usually she won one or two majors a year, she lost quite a few matches. However she rarely uses to the same player twice a year it is always someone else, often not really a top player.

 

[tennisdad65]

I posted in another thread that she is close to 200 lbs.. I was laughed at.. I seriously think she is 190+ at this years AO. I am 5-10 , 175 and her thighs, butt, chest, waist, and arms are far bigger than mine.

Anyone care to guess Serena's actual weight?
I'm thinking, around 175 when she's thin in the waist, and 15 more when she's pudgy and out of shape.

 

[Tight Lines]

I posted in another thread that she is close to 200 lbs.. I was laughed at.. I seriously think she is 190+ at this years AO. I am 5-10 , 175 and her thighs, butt, chest, waist, and arms are far bigger than mine.

Especially her butt LOL....

 

[onehandbh]

Serena is probably one of the mentally tougher players on the WTA tour. She's really difficult to beat in the grand slams.

It's a tough matchup for Maria. She's not a grind-it-out type of player and she can't really overpower Serena easily.

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

Anyone care to guess Serena's actual weight?
I'm thinking, around 175 when she's thin in the waist, and 15 more when she's pudgy and out of shape.

Hey Adonis, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

.​

 

[LeeD]

Hey Adonis, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

.​

EVERYTHING!
While Serena is no Big Show (6'10" and 440 lbs.), she is the biggest, strongest, quickest coordinated player on the WTA. Notice, COORDINATED player, not a stork. Imagine another would be perfect body, Dominika Cibulkova AT 5'10" tall! But she's not.
Too tall can be a liability, as quickness and stop n go alludes them.
Too wide can be a liability, as it's hard to move, but Serena makes it work. You can't diss Serena's speed or change of direction when she's interested.
Too weak is a liability, as the serve and groundies just don't have power.
Too short can be a liability, as it takes more steps to cover the whole court, and no leverage for serves.

Just like, it appears a darn good size for ATP is around 6'3", 170 lbs. The lighter weight for all the best of 5 set match's that are played on ATP.

 

[wings56]

I think it's pretty simple... her lack of mobility compared to Serena limits Maria's maximum potential. She would need Serena to have an off day and for her to have a great day to be able to compete. We aren't even talking mental aspects associated with the matchup either...