Tennisanity
Legend
Hey it wasn't me that started throwing out insults by calling posts embarrassing. People can have different perspectives you know.
Serena vs. McEnroe Fantasy Match
- Thread starter MatsPhilander
- Start date
Hey it wasn't me that started throwing out insults by calling posts embarrassing. People can have different perspectives you know.
D
Deleted member 742196
Guest
100 Federer ATP points against 1000 Williams' WTA ones says that you are an atheist.
marc45
G.O.A.T.
hard to believe we're not talking about the accomplishments of the world's #700 ranked man....Issam Haitham Taweel (either fallen 57 places since then according to listings, or gained)
poor guy, doesn't even get a picture, and Serena's featured in VF pregnant...I'd take her life (minus the pregnancy)
poor guy, doesn't even get a picture, and Serena's featured in VF pregnant...I'd take her life (minus the pregnancy)
killerboi2
Hall of Fame
Well yeah it would be since i'm talking about people I know in real life. Haven't seen much people silly enough on here to believe that
A
Attila_the_gorilla
Guest
And you know a list like that makes no sense.
There should be a separate tennis tour for full bearded middle aged late starters. I would claim GOAT status, and you'll no doubt back me up.
marc45
G.O.A.T.
TennisLBC
Professional
Why won't that list sense. The list was comprised of tennis journalists, writers and former player? The list makes perfect sense in this context, because no one bashed Graf. No one demand she play a guy. Graf topped the list because of what she achieved in tennis...and the sky didn't fall.
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Attila_the_gorilla
Guest
In what "context"? Maybe the list was about dominance or something.
In that case my mate Woody Nickels should top the polls, cos he won last season's section 7 without losing a set all year.
heftylefty
Hall of Fame
Oh. Because they are Serena Fans on this board. I'm not only a fan, I had an opportunity to hit with her when she was a little kid. So I will admit to being bias.
C
Chadillac
Guest
Fancy bears, if your not informed please dont respond.
Its amazing aussie doesnt see his own hypocrisy, then again neither does serena.
Hit the crack pipe with her maybe, lol, like you actually play
And there would be some who would howl at you if you put it like this. And it is a question which is much less loaded than that of the men's versus the women's tour. I feel this should explain the controversy around it that you find dumbfounding.
Well, there are plenty of women stronger than me, I can tell you that.But of course that's not the point. I certainly agree that tennis is quite a physical sport. On average as well as at the extreme top end, which we are talking about, men do outperform women in physical terms. While tennis is about more than pure physicality, there is no reason to expect that this does not have a serious effect in tennis.
(There could theoretically be other factors that come into play. For example, in snooker I tend to believe that it is social factors - the male-dominated culture of clubs - that contribute much more to the gap between male and female players. However, I see no evidence that such factors should impact on tennis, or at least, in a way that would negate the above-mentioned physical differences.)
So yes, it is a reasonable proposition that top players in the women's game would be unlikely to be able to compete at the highest level on the men's tour. It is when you are taking a specific top women's player, and start bandying around specific numbers (700 in this case) that you are stirring controversy.
Now, I have no good basis on which to form an opinion on whether Serena would have trouble competing at a similar level to ATP World #611 Wishaya Trongcharoenchaikul, but at least I don't find it as obvious as you apparently do that she could not.
Now, there are some reasonable objective numbers that it is possible to consider, such as serve speed, speed of groundstrokes, running speed etc. These do not tell the whole story, but if you could show that ATP World #611 Wishaya Trongcharoenchaikul consistently outperformed Serena Williams on such metrics (enough to outweigh any other advantages that Serena may have, such as tactical finesse, versatility and mental strength), then that could lend some weight to your argument. However, I doubt that either John McEnroe or you have really done an in-depth analysis of the physical capabilities of someone such as ATP World #611 Wishaya Trongcharoenchaikul, weighed against those of Serena Williams.
Hence, the controversy.
When McEnroe said "She'd be like 700 in the world" he wasn't submitting an academic answer after years of painstaking research...he was speaking off the cuff to a question for which he (presumably) wasn't given notice. He could have said 500 or 1000. The number was simply the rhetorical underpinning of his view that she'd be uncompetitive against high level males...which in McEnroe's view prevents her being regarded as the greatest player.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
There's no way she would beat Federer. All of your verbal gymnastics cannot avoid that conclusion. She doesn't face a serve like Fed's on her tour, how will she beat him? Her serve is incredible for her tour, on the men's tour it's just another decent serve at best. You know, on ATP, serve is used for more than just starting the point...And let's not even get started on Fed's slices, topspin on forehand/backhand vis a vis hers. Fed volleys better than hers. These are facts. If you have ever so much as held a tennis racquet, you wouldn't dispute them. You act like it's not obvious because you don't have a clue.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Not MAYBE, he WAS. He was basically put on the spot by a stupid interviewer for the egregious crime of calling Serena the best female tennis player. He actually had to explain to the interviewer why Serena wouldn't be better than Fed or Nadal. Why don't you read the interview before descending on here to educate? The number he quoted may not be factual but it's not controversial either, except to mimosa plants like you.
Thundergod
Hall of Fame
Not sure who he is, but he sounds like the GOAT to me. Better than Fedr.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Checkmate by McEnroe!
Indeed, so glad he said that. That should shut up the PC brigade for some time.
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Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
What the?? I never said she would beat Federer, hell I don't even believe she can beat Federer! Far out, most men can't beat Federer, why in gods name would I think Serena Williams could? Federer wasn't even mentioned in my posts, yet again someones putting words in my mouth.
McEnroe tried to say she couldn't beat the 700th ranked male who's currently Issam Haitham Taweel. Now that i'm not sure of.
Federer wasn't even being discussed.
WildVolley
Legend
Perhaps we should blame the mistaken belief that women professionals are just as good as the men on Bobby Riggs.
He hyped up that match even though he was already over the hill. McEnroe is trying to do the same thing.
He hyped up that match even though he was already over the hill. McEnroe is trying to do the same thing.
70後
Hall of Fame
Didn't read your post. But I have already addressed that point several times. However now you have shown your bias against the women's game by calling it inferior when it is different and has to be seen separately in its own merit and that is the whole reason why the leagues are separate to begin with. I did not complicate it, I was making an analogy, and how do you know how I feel?
70後
Hall of Fame
When did Aussie Darcy say she would beat Federer or make verbal gymnastics to avoid that in the post you are responding to? Don't make things up.
Since you say the womens game is inferior in your other post, tell you what; don't watch, don't comment.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
It is TECHNICALLY inferior, period. If the women want to say it is an insult to call Serena the best female tennis player instead of just best tennis player, then I will be forced to compare as-is. I am not interested in addressing it separately if they want to upend the whole reason for having a separate league (while still maintaining the separate league). Who's biased here? Third wave feminists, I think. Would much prefer if CBS can highlight female foeticide in India and embarrass our PM who was in your country shaking hands with Chump, er, Trump instead of pursuing such 'serious' issues as whether it is sexist to call Serena the best female tennis player.
Shaolin
Talk Tennis Guru
You're being extremely generous. Not all D1 players are good enough to get one ATP point and reach 1600.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
70後
Hall of Fame
McEnroe is not the victim of a hostile media here, don't act like you don't know how the US talk show circuit works. He was not put on the spot, he was not cold approached or ambushed. This is a typical interview setup, a softball, a lob so he could put away the overhead.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
No, you keep talking about how there is a lot of dispute about where Serena would be ranked, hypothetically, on the ATP - 700 or 1000 or not even that, when not one of these hypotheticals discuss no.1. Do you think she could beat Federer? If you don't know, then, well, you just don't know at all.
70後
Hall of Fame
I made a suggestion to you. Did I say I have a right to stop you? Go ahead if it makes you feel better to insist on watching and commenting on an inferior sport. Seems pretty pointless.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
And who was the media person who interviewed him? That's right, it was a lady. So why don't you ask her to show sensitivity towards the women's tour if it's really as you describe it? And I am not convinced about it at all because I have seen nonsensical articles, on Guardian, for instance as to why Serena IS the greatest. Note the singular. Apparently no doubt entertained in the minds of these journalists. I tend to think this is part of the larger campaign to attack 'sexism' against Serena by calling her best female rather than best overall.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Actually, Bobby Riggs easily beat Margaret Court a couple of months earlier, so the achievement that Billie Jean King did by beating him a few months later was huge.Perhaps we should blame the mistaken belief that women professionals are just as good as the men on Bobby Riggs.
The thing is, the women can't win. They lose to the male like Riggs or McEnroe and it's all "Ha, they suck", they beat the male and it's all "he's too old and over the hill".
There's no point for them.
70後
Hall of Fame
No, I was asking you did Aussie Darcy say Serena will beat Federer in the post I referred to. Just answer it.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
No, no, you did not make a suggestion. You just said, don't watch, don't comment. You are softpedalling it now. Did I say it is an inferior sport in the absolute sense? No. But is it inferior to the ATP? Yes, it is. Can it be more entertaining than the ATP at times? Yes, for sure, which also I had said and given a good example to demonstrate it. Which of course you snipped out to pretend I was just 'attacking' the women's tour, didn't you?
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Here's how this went. John answered a question honestly posed to him in an interview. He did not sugarcoat it or demure. He just answered it. Media had a field day creating a faux controversy and went out of its way to include Serena. Serena does not particularly want to be dragged into a story that John' mouth created, especially when she has a lot more to worry about. Its summertime, she's pregnant and her body is doing irritating and uncomfortable things to her she did not anticipate.
Nobody owes anybody an apology.
Nobody owes anybody an apology.
70後
Hall of Fame
Either you don't have a clue how the media machine works or you are just pretending it was all an innocent interview.
I can see how there could be a number of points for Serena being greatest overall, equally, I can also see a number of points just as against it. I've already said, Serena > Federer or Federer > Serena in achievements, that is, can't be answered unless there is a way to compare mens and womens achievements, which I don't see because imo they are doing two different things. Although the rules in each case are the same, that doesn't make them both playing under one set of rules.
70後
Hall of Fame
nope, you didn't answer it. Because he never said that.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Can you not read? I'm being serious, is there a problem with your reading abilities? Because the post you quoted from me EXPLICITLY SAID "I never said she would beat Federer, hell I don't even believe she can beat Federer!"
Why in gods name did you reply to THAT and say "if you don't know (if she can beat Federer) then, well, you just don't know at all. I literally already said I don't believe she can beat him. Did you somehow miss that in my short post...?
Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. First people put words in my mouth and now they're blatantly ignoring posts that they're quoting.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
I know very well what the media does but unlike you I don't pretend Serena is a hapless victim of it. What makes you think she can't play it either? It could equally be plausible that she set up the interview with McEnroe in a mutually beneficial (in terms of publicity) deal. But the point is what McEnroe said isn't really wrong, off base. He was asked why she shouldn't be called the best tennis player instead of best female tennis player and he gave an answer which is unobjectionable if perhaps the precise ranking does not satisfy the rigour of some armchair scientists on here. What do you want him to do? Why is he supposed to evade such questions and avoid mentioning the brutally obvious? What really is so controversial about what he said? Nothing, there is no controversy except the one manufactured by the media themselves. By your reasoning, tomorrow, I could unwittingly refer to the sun God as 'he' (it is a he in my mythology) and it would stir a tempest in the teapot but how does that make me culpable? Go and take issue with the media's attitude instead.
Yeah, yeah, I have heard your rigmarole about them not playing under one set of rules and answered it before. Moving on...
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Sorry, missed that. Too many posts to respond to but it's on me. Sorry again.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Exactly. Media asked question, John gave an answer he knew would create headlines for his book, media did not like said answer and therefore gave him the headlines. Serena asks to be left out of it as she's 6 months pregnant and dealing with her own ****. Media then McEnroe if he wants to apologize and he does not. Media then write on how he doesn't want to apologize.
You can blame the media for asking a stupid question, you can blame John for giving an answer he knew would generate a bit of drama (his initial answer was honest, then he felt the need to throw a number figure out there which of course became a huge story). You can blame some PC twitter people who got outraged by his comments. But don't blame Serena who simply wants to be left out of this and is instead being taunted on these threads.
70後
Hall of Fame
You rejected my suggestion. So I concluded you were both watch and comment on something inferior, which is pretty pointless. I have already said several times why it is different, if it is played in its own league, it is its separate sport albeit a subset of the same sport like the men are also a subset.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
But why does media not like said answer? Why should such an answer make headlines when it's not the first time something like this (or even more 'uncomplimentary') has been said? Pl reflect on the question because it tells you a lot about the prevailing climate of discourse. There is nothing to get outraged there over. If anything, the last part of McEnroe's answer was a real mess to read, going back and forth, maybe because he had already sensed he was stepping on a minefield. And that is unfortunate.
rh310
Hall of Fame
500 spots, but only 241 ranking points. #200 Marc Polmans (272 points) vs #700 Issam Taweel (31 points) -- roughly the same number of points separating Raonic (4150) and Thiem (3895).
Plus, Braasch spent the day at the golf course, smoking cigarettes and drinking beer, if I remember correctly. He was roughly 15 years older than them, and beat Serena 6-1 and Venus 6-2.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
But in the post where you made the suggestion, as you call it, you said flat out that I regard the game as inferior and am biased against it. This is in spite of my taking the pains to contextualise it by comparing two entertainers popular in their time. See, why should I take the effort to make myself clear if you are just going to pick on one adjective you don't like to make your argument? I mean, we can all then have twatter level convos here too, right?
70後
Hall of Fame
I didn't snip out your example to pretend you were just attacking the women, if you are referring to the Kenny G, Coltrane example you gave. I have no idea about sax, I had to google Coltrane to find out what you were saying there and have only heard of Kenny G in passing as an artiste, that is why I didn't reply to that example you gave. I don't listen to music actually. Just don't misunderstand on this point.
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
I think Serena would fair better against Federer than Nadal because no one really hits like Nadal in the WTA. There are plenty of hard hitting flat ball hitters like Fed though.
I'm only talking about strokes and not movement, game, speed, power, or accuracy. The type of shot Fed hits is closer to what she encounters in the WTA than Nadals shots.
It's a lot easier to trade ground strokes, and that's if the shot isn't a clear winner based purely on power, less placement that she could return a waist high shot from Fed better than something above her head from Nadal. It takes a lot of upper body strength to just arm a shot back with pace above your head.
She also isn't tall enough nor has any vertical jumping abilities for off the ground forehands. I also don't count mixed doubles because it's a totally different game and the shots windows is easier to predict due to your partner cutting off one side of the court.
I'm only talking about strokes and not movement, game, speed, power, or accuracy. The type of shot Fed hits is closer to what she encounters in the WTA than Nadals shots.
It's a lot easier to trade ground strokes, and that's if the shot isn't a clear winner based purely on power, less placement that she could return a waist high shot from Fed better than something above her head from Nadal. It takes a lot of upper body strength to just arm a shot back with pace above your head.
She also isn't tall enough nor has any vertical jumping abilities for off the ground forehands. I also don't count mixed doubles because it's a totally different game and the shots windows is easier to predict due to your partner cutting off one side of the court.
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Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
70後
Hall of Fame
Serena drew a clear line, she said : keep me out of it. She isn't playing this game with McEnroe. He was asked.... he was asked.... as if anybody is forced to answer a question just because somebody is asking it. McEnroe keeps playing this game.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
It's all good. Apologies, I didn't mean to be rude. My point is, I just hate the idea of comparing these things we'll never know the answer too. Not just the gendered based ones. I hate when people are like "how would Rod Laver do in this era" "who would win- peak Djokovic 2011 or peak Fed 2006".
We'll never know the answer and all it does is create a ****storm. Is tennis really that boring at the moment that we have to speculate where a woman would be on the mens tour? I'm currently loving the quality of tennis on both tours. I don't know why others are so preoccupied with these stupid questions.
Oh and I hate the idea of Serena being dragged into this and put down by people which we've seen in these threads calling her petty and just all round criticizing her. She's 6 months pregnant, just leave her be. Yeah she posed for a magazine, doesn't mean she doesn't deserve to be kept out of the negative headlines at what is a stressful time for he
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Yes, McEnroe's tennis wouldn't hold up in today's game very well.
So if he wants to compare apples and oranges, then he would also lose out.
So if he wants to compare apples and oranges, then he would also lose out.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Um, Fed still hits pretty hefty topspin, just with a lower trajectory. His average topspin is 2700 RPM which is still pretty high. And his slice actually spins as a higher rate still. Regardless, I also think Nadal will be the worse match up because he will force her to hit at a higher contact point than she's used to and surrender more baseline real estate than she'd like (Fed would also achieve the latter but more through power than spin).
70後
Hall of Fame
They are both playing saxophones and sax artists, right? So imo the more apt comparison would be first division and second division in football. I used to prefer watching second division football myself because of my favourite team, years and years ago. I don't claim however that the second division is as good as the first division.
S
Sirius Black
Guest
Fed hits flat? What? Are you high?
