Serena vs. McEnroe Fantasy Match

Serena vs. McEnroe

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Instead of McEnroe US media is the one who should apologize for asking stupid questions. They didn't just show their stupidity but they insulted Serena as well.

That's the same media who has been trying to criticize Donald Trump every day and failed. They are stupider than worms.
 
@Dolgopolov85, what about comparing diversity in tennis with music? Wouldn't that be more appropriate? Same musical notes with different instruments. The same composition played with cello or with piano can't be the same. That is all I am saying all along.
 
https://www.yahoo.com/tv/defiant-john-mcenroe-wont-apologize-serena-williams-160648447.html

This is why so many people hate the media, or at least I do.

McEnroe was being pressured by a NPR interviewer to say that Serena is the best tennis player ever, male or female. He had to say something like, 'No, Serena would be about #700 on the men's tour.' They made this sound like he was dissing Serena. Then they wonder, "When will you apologize?"!!

Serena is a great player. Only someone ignorant about tennis would think she'd beat Agassi, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokivic, etc. This "feud" they're trying to start is really stupid.
 
reaper said:
When McEnroe said "She'd be like 700 in the world" he wasn't submitting an academic answer after years of painstaking research...he was speaking off the cuff to a question for which he (presumably) wasn't given notice. He could have said 500 or 1000. The number was simply the rhetorical underpinning of his view that she'd be uncompetitive against high level males...which in McEnroe's view prevents her being regarded as the greatest player.
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LOL, if that's what he said then it's true that I missed the point.

It is an absolutely idiotic thing for him to say, and the whole furore becomes much easier to understand. By this logic, ATP World #611 Wishaya Trongcharoenchaikul is a "greater" tennis player than both Serena Williams and Rod Laver (see discussion above).

To ram the point home, if you were going to ask whether Michael Phelps or Usain Bolt was the "greater" sportsperson, you wouldn't compare their times over 100m in absolute terms either ...

Such a point of view is deeply disrespectful to the women's game, as it effectually suggests that the game is so hugely "inferior" to the men's that no woman could ever be considered a "greater" tennis player than ATP World #611 Wishaya Trongcharoenchaikul.

Now, I personally think that the question who is the "greatest" tennis player across the men's and women's game is meaningless, even more so than who is the "greatest" on the men's side across eras. But if you are willing to enter into this discussion and then use who can beat whom as the measure of "greatness", you absolutely deserve to be called out on it. (But then, McEnroe in the past has also said that Federer can't be the greatest because of his H2H against Nadal, which I also consider idiotic ... though not as much as using that argument with respect to Serena.)
 
^^^I didn't know there was another one. This is the only place I go to nowadays.

P.S. The "reply" button isn't working for me anymore. Any idea why that might be?
 
Asking who is GOAT in any sport is dumb. Talking about different sexes regarding it is dumb. I see it in tennis more than anything. Its a minefield. And more so in tennis because no sport is as close to equally popular as men and womens tennis as far as sexes. Bonnie blair won 5 golds in speed skating. She is considered one of the best speed skaters of all time. I have never heard anyone say well she is great but would get killed by the top 1000 men. Mac should know better.
 
I thought we had gotten away from the stupid idea that the greatness of women's achievements in sports should be measured by how they would compete with the men.

It is saying that a woman (at least in sports where they are typically at a physical disadvantage to men) can never be a "great" athlete.

It's like telling your daughter "Don't bother trying to achieve anything in tennis, football, swimming, running ..., because you'll never be as `great' as a man."

I guess there is no point in engaging in further discussion. If you think this is a valid argument, then your view of the world is so different from mine we're never going to see eye to eye on this.
 
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asifallasleep said:
Anyone suggesting that she's the greatest ever, including the men, need's to have their head's examined and are clearly putting forth a feminist agenda.
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Sigh. "Feminist agenda", what does that even mean? And why would it be a bad thing?

Never mind. Let's not let this get further out of hand.

As far as I'm concerned, asking "is Federer or Serena the greatest tennis player" is a meaningless question. Not because Federer is somehow "obviously" greater than Serena, but because you are comparing apples with oranges.

But if you accept that it is a meaningful question, then the person who needs their head examined is the one who interprets it as "who would beat whom in a tennis match", rather than "whose achievements in their sport should be considered greater". They're the one who is building up a straw man to knock down.
 
mightyjeditribble said:
Sigh. "Feminist agenda", what does that even mean? And why would it be a bad thing?

Never mind. Let's not let this get further out of hand.

As far as I'm concerned, asking "is Federer or Serena the greatest tennis player" is a meaningless question. Not because Federer is somehow "obviously" greater than Serena, but because you are comparing apples with oranges.

But if you accept that it is a meaningful question, then the person who needs their head examined is the one who interprets it as "who would beat whom in a tennis match", rather than "whose achievements in their sport should be considered greater". They're the one who is building up a straw man to knock down.
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If we're judging players' greatness based on 'achievements in their sport' across all the tours equally, Esther Vergeer is the clear Tennis GOAT.
 
SpinToWin said:
Afraid to say you're wrong :p

Orthodox Christian (though not in the traditional "religious" sense, I think culturally/morally may be the best expression) and agnostic as to the existence of a divine creator. I do believe in something transcendent however :)
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Haha. Not too many intelligent design supporters would reference Russel's teapot (in a tennis forum exchange no less). Perhaps you're a match seasoned creationist, in which case good on you.

Whenever one arrives at their own personal position over having one provided to them it's always a more robust belief system. And it sounds like you've done just that.

100 ATP or 1000 WTA points remittance to be arranged shortly. According to the above you'd rather ATP currency, will make sure to send those.
 
This is crazy. Nowadays, people can't speak the truth because someone's feelings might get hurt, by the truth. This whole topic is comparing apples and oranges. Men have advantages that many women don't have. It doesn't mean women are less. Serena has been extremely dominant in women's tennis. She is not the greatest tennis player of all time. However, she may be considered one of the most dominant players in tennis. Even then, she is not the most dominant tennis player ever. There is one person, in particular, that is the most dominant tennis player in her division compared to anyone else. Her name is Esther Vergeer. She's the most incredible wheelchair tennis player ever in my opinion. She went 7+ years without losing a match. Now, would Serena say that Esther Vergeer is the greatest player of all time based on this information? Of course not, but Esther Vergeer is still an incredibly talented athlete that destroyed her competition in a way that's never been done. Esther is, no doubt, unrivaled in her talent! All that said, Serena should rightfully be considered as one of the most dominant in her sport compared to others in their sport, but definitely not the greatest tennis player of all time. Just my luck, someone will say I'm discriminating against people with special needs and/or handicaps, as well as women. That would be crazy, since I'm a special education teacher. What is this world coming to? Don't apologize McEnroe.
 
The_18th_Slam said:
If we're judging players' greatness based on 'achievements in their sport' across all the tours equally, Esther Vergeer is the clear Tennis GOAT.
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Yip. This is pretty much how I've rationalized it too. If we're going to keep mum on the issue of gender there's absolutely no justification for excluding Esther Vergeer when it comes to a tennis GOAT.

Maybe the next gen will get so up in arms about things to be needlessly upset at we'll be having this conversation tear through media in 2030.

Whether this is progress or regress I can't tell anymore. We've got whole countries and cities being wiped off the surface of the planet and people seem to fret about things that hardly seem more than a pedantic issue.
 
Aussie Darcy said:
Exactly. Media asked question, John gave an answer he knew would create headlines for his book, media did not like said answer and therefore gave him the headlines. Serena asks to be left out of it as she's 6 months pregnant and dealing with her own ****. Media then McEnroe if he wants to apologize and he does not. Media then write on how he doesn't want to apologize.

You can blame the media for asking a stupid question, you can blame John for giving an answer he knew would generate a bit of drama (his initial answer was honest, then he felt the need to throw a number figure out there which of course became a huge story). You can blame some PC twitter people who got outraged by his comments. But don't blame Serena who simply wants to be left out of this and is instead being taunted on these threads.
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John would have answered the question the same way, whether he had written the book or not. Its very typical of John, really. I can just him in my head saying this.
 
Sentinel said:
He did not have to bite the bait. He could have said "I do not know."
It was stupid of someone who works in media to get "trapped" like that.
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How often have you heard John just say," I don't know" to a question like this? He tends to ramble towards wherever in a press conference. he's not thinking like a commentator during an interview. He's John.
 
BTURNER said:
How often have you heard John just say," I don't know" to a question like this? He tends to ramble towards wherever in a press conference. he's not thinking like a commentator during an interview. He's John.
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I rarely get John, or an American channel, for that matter in Asia. He's grown up enough, that is if he ever grew up. Used to be a big fan of his in the late 70's and early 80s.
 
mightyjeditribble said:
LOL, if that's what he said then it's true that I missed the point.

It is an absolutely idiotic thing for him to say, and the whole furore becomes much easier to understand. By this logic, ATP World #611 Wishaya Trongcharoenchaikul is a "greater" tennis player than both Serena Williams and Rod Laver (see discussion above).

To ram the point home, if you were going to ask whether Michael Phelps or Usain Bolt was the "greater" sportsperson, you wouldn't compare their times over 100m in absolute terms either ...

Such a point of view is deeply disrespectful to the women's game, as it effectually suggests that the game is so hugely "inferior" to the men's that no woman could ever be considered a "greater" tennis player than ATP World #611 Wishaya Trongcharoenchaikul.

Now, I personally think that the question who is the "greatest" tennis player across the men's and women's game is meaningless, even more so than who is the "greatest" on the men's side across eras. But if you are willing to enter into this discussion and then use who can beat whom as the measure of "greatness", you absolutely deserve to be called out on it. (But then, McEnroe in the past has also said that Federer can't be the greatest because of his H2H against Nadal, which I also consider idiotic ... though not as much as using that argument with respect to Serena.)
Click to expand...

It actually doesn't mean what you're saying it does. He's saying that absolute level should be a component of the measure, not that it should be used to the exclusion of every other metric. By saying that she'd be ranked 700th on the men's circuit, he doesn't state that makes her the 700th greatest player, merely that it excludes her from being the greatest player. It's a view that is reasonable irrespective of whether or not you agree with it.
 
The NPR person seemed to be under the impression that Serena is GOAT, male or female. So they don't know much about tennis and all their views are politically driven. Yeah, Mac could have said, "She's good, but maybe not the greatest of all time.", but it's hard to say something like that. It's like saying, "Yes, NYC has a population greater than 3 people."

It's technically true, but...
 
I think the media people who think he dissed her don't know that number 700 in the world is a very accomplished player.

It's not like that would be a beginner.
 
SpinToWin said:
Afraid to say you're wrong :p

Orthodox Christian (though not in the traditional "religious" sense, I think culturally/morally may be the best expression) and agnostic as to the existence of a divine creator. I do believe in something transcendent however :)
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Hahha, hooooo boy, all that Peterson-watching is getting to you :p :)
 
70後 said:
Serena drew a clear line, she said : keep me out of it. She isn't playing this game with McEnroe. He was asked.... he was asked.... as if anybody is forced to answer a question just because somebody is asking it. McEnroe keeps playing this game.
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I don't disagree with you. However, there have been times when Serena has said nothing, absolutely nothing - for example, the hacking of medical records - so she does have a choice. And this time she chose to respond. And she's clearly allowed for continuing Media interest. All good for McEnroe's book sales. Maybe she has a percentage ;)
 
Wow only the 10th thread about this. Too late to apologize like one republic sings and Mac and Serena are friends and this is just for publicity.
 
I think McEnroe is trying to bait Serena. Who wouldn't want to watch this match? McEnroe would make millions.
 
TheFifthSet said:
Hahha, hooooo boy, all that Peterson-watching is getting to you :p :)
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That's part of it, but I did grow up Greek orthodox Christian. I tossed it away at one point in an atheist phase, but it just felt... empty. I was very self righteous and a moral busybody then, but there was no substance behind it all. My renewed appreciation for the religious aspect helped me find a functional compromise for myself :)
 
https://www.theguardian.com/observer/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html
8915ef33da7cd27627b7110096082495.jpg


Did you know this player Karrsten Braasch competed in a "Battle of the Sexes" contest against the Williams sisters (Venus and Serena) at the 1998 Australian Open when he was ranked #203? A decade and a half older than the sisters, Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple bottles of ice cold lager". He nonetheless defeated both sisters, playing a single set against each, beating Serena 6–1 and Venus 6–2.
 
reaper said:
It actually doesn't mean what you're saying it does. He's saying that absolute level should be a component of the measure, not that it should be used to the exclusion of every other metric. By saying that she'd be ranked 700th on the men's circuit, he doesn't state that makes her the 700th greatest player, merely that it excludes her from being the greatest player. It's a view that is reasonable irrespective of whether or not you agree with it.
Click to expand...

No, I don't accept it as a reasonable view when you say that a man could be considered "the greatest" of both genders, but a woman could not, because of "absolute level". As discussed above, the same could be applied to Laver, and I've never heard anyone say it is reasonable to consider that he is not as great a player as ATP World #611 Wishaya Trongcharoenchaikul. Or, if you want to complain that I am exaggerating (I am, but it is to make a point), take Tomas Berdych. Surely his "absolute level" is much closer to that of Federer than that of ATP World #611 Wishaya Trongcharoenchaikul, so the argument would imply that both Tomas Berdych is a greater tennis player than both Serena Williams and Rod Laver.

No, I don't consider this a reasonable proposition. What is more, I don't believe that John McEnroe, or many of those who argue the point here, would agree that Tomas Berdych is a greater tennis player than Rod Laver.

In fact, McEnroe just put Serena above Novak Djokovic, and behind Federer, Nadal, Laver and Sampras, which is an implicit admission that the "absolute level" argument wasn't really that well thought through ... ;)

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/879681058383515648
 
mightyjeditribble said:
I thought we had gotten away from the stupid idea that the greatness of women's achievements in sports should be measured by how they would compete with the men.

It is saying that a woman (at least in sports where they are typically at a physical disadvantage to men) can never be a "great" athlete.

It's like telling your daughter "Don't bother trying to achieve anything in tennis, football, swimming, running ..., because you'll never be as `great' as a man."

I guess there is no point in engaging in further discussion. If you think this is a valid argument, then your view of the world is so different from mine we're never going to see eye to eye on this.
Click to expand...
That's what I did. I thought I was helping. Should I have lied?
 
neversaydienadalfan said:
This is crazy. Nowadays, people can't speak the truth because someone's feelings might get hurt, by the truth. This whole topic is comparing apples and oranges. Men have advantages that many women don't have. It doesn't mean women are less. Serena has been extremely dominant in women's tennis. She is not the greatest tennis player of all time. However, she may be considered one of the most dominant players in tennis. Even then, she is not the most dominant tennis player ever. There is one person, in particular, that is the most dominant tennis player in her division compared to anyone else. Her name is Esther Vergeer. She's the most incredible wheelchair tennis player ever in my opinion. She went 7+ years without losing a match. Now, would Serena say that Esther Vergeer is the greatest player of all time based on this information? Of course not, but Esther Vergeer is still an incredibly talented athlete that destroyed her competition in a way that's never been done. Esther is, no doubt, unrivaled in her talent! All that said, Serena should rightfully be considered as one of the most dominant in her sport compared to others in their sport, but definitely not the greatest tennis player of all time. Just my luck, someone will say I'm discriminating against people with special needs and/or handicaps, as well as women. That would be crazy, since I'm a special education teacher. What is this world coming to? Don't apologize McEnroe.
Click to expand...

Why not? If you say "Because the question is meaningless, there is no such thing," then I agree. If you say "because the men's field is deeper and more competitive, and hence her record is less impressive than (e.g.) Federer's", then I may or may not agree, but it's an argument worth having. If you say "because of where she would be ranked if she played on the men's tour", then I think that's a ridiculous argument, and I think McEnroe basically agrees with that if he now puts Serena above Djokovic. :)

Or let's say, you ask me "Who is the greater player, Esther or Serena?", then "Who are you kidding, Esther couldn't compete on the able-bodied women's tour" isn't really a valuable contribution to the debate. :)
 
SpinToWin said:
That's part of it, but I did grow up Greek orthodox Christian. I tossed it away at one point in an atheist phase, but it just felt... empty. I was very self righteous and a moral busybody then, but there was no substance behind it all. My renewed appreciation for the religious aspect helped me find a functional compromise for myself :)
Click to expand...

Ah, the religious non-believer! My life trajectory has been pretty similar..raised in a moderately religious Orthodox Christian household, embraced a pretty nihilistic, short-sighted brand of atheism in my teens, and now am something of a culturally religious agnostic.
 
mightyjeditribble said:
I hoped at first that you are joking, but based on your other posts, that hope has evaporated. I guess you'd also tell your children not to bother playing chess, as computers are better at it now. Sad!
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Don't worry, I was joking, I don't have any kids.

Wouldn't want to see them grow up in a world dominated by PC police and militant SJWs.
 
SpinToWin said:
That's part of it, but I did grow up Greek orthodox Christian. I tossed it away at one point in an atheist phase, but it just felt... empty. I was very self righteous and a moral busybody then, but there was no substance behind it all. My renewed appreciation for the religious aspect helped me find a functional compromise for myself :)
Click to expand...

TheFifthSet said:
Ah, the religious non-believer! My life trajectory has been pretty similar..raised in a moderately religious Orthodox Christian household, embraced a pretty nihilistic, short-sighted brand of atheism in my teens, and now am something of a culturally religious agnostic.
Click to expand...


Good on both of you, I landed on the other side. My own upbringing I suppose, agnostism has been in the family for generations, I just went a bit further.

Both Atheism and Intelligent design are belief systems anyway. I get along best with people that have thought a bit about their positions, whichever way they happen to orientate themselves after all that thinking is irrelevant.
 
Sentinel said:
I remember him saying things like "You are the pits of the world". I was a teenager then and loved his rebelliousness.
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It's all perspective. At the time JMac burst on the scene I was in my early 30s. Even Connors and Borg were youngsters to me. ;)

I was probably most judgemental around then. Now the young punks seem SO young!
 
mightyjeditribble said:
No, I don't accept it as a reasonable view when you say that a man could be considered "the greatest" of both genders, but a woman could not, because of "absolute level". As discussed above, the same could be applied to Laver, and I've never heard anyone say it is reasonable to consider that he is not as great a player as ATP World #611 Wishaya Trongcharoenchaikul. Or, if you want to complain that I am exaggerating (I am, but it is to make a point), take Tomas Berdych. Surely his "absolute level" is much closer to that of Federer than that of ATP World #611 Wishaya Trongcharoenchaikul, so the argument would imply that both Tomas Berdych is a greater tennis player than both Serena Williams and Rod Laver.

No, I don't consider this a reasonable proposition. What is more, I don't believe that John McEnroe, or many of those who argue the point here, would agree that Tomas Berdych is a greater tennis player than Rod Laver.

In fact, McEnroe just put Serena above Novak Djokovic, and behind Federer, Nadal, Laver and Sampras, which is an implicit admission that the "absolute level" argument wasn't really that well thought through ... ;)

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/879681058383515648
Click to expand...

The notion that a woman could never be considered the greatest player because of absolute level is an inference you've drawn. It's not something Mcenroe said. Nowhere does he say that the greatest player must necessarily have been the best player....which would exclude females.
 
There are articles going round that Serena could beat Nick Kyrgios. This goes back to what I was saying earlier. I'm sure a lot of journalist and fans like Serena a lot better and really would love for it to be true but if we're keeping it real, Serena would stand no chance against him.
 
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