Serena vs. McEnroe Fantasy Match

Serena vs. McEnroe


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THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
Are you really maintaining that prize money (historically, the discrepancy between men's and women's prize money amounts) is/was not indicative of the value placed on the separate events??

Someone needs a history book. Provide any evidence where the achievement of and winning the major was considered of lesser value for women. You cannot, as its never been officially or unofficial stated. In your rant, you missed the fact that prize money became an issue in part because the actual achievement was always considered having equal value, therefore the players should be earning the same amount. If there was any official position that (for example) the male U.S. Open singles title won by a man was of greater value than that one by a woman, you--and the rest of this little group certainly would have posted it in the thousands of posts dedicated to belittling women.

If so, please just stop now. Please. Additionally, I've offered ample evidence that they're not different sports, but they are different events--parsed by gender. Nobody can be this dense, honestly.

No evidence, but flaming. Typical of your ilk.

Thanks to truth frightening the insecure of TTW, I will post it again, just to see the male irrelevancy crisis create rage all over again:

Same sport. Same achievements, and Serena's record is superior to every male playing today, and very likely endless tomorrows to come, much as that pains McEnroe as he cannot take pride in males being the best of several generations.

There's no male with her majors record, and they will never catch or surpass it. No current younger male exhibits any ability to even squeeze out one major, and like a rerun of a TV series you've seen enough times to quote, they walk on court to lose to the same players--some old enough that they're standing in the doorway of retirement.

Cry, flame or do whatever you want, but Serena's achievements left all other active players in the dust years ago. Wonderful.
 
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Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Serena may well be the greatest tennis player of all time, male or female......but I don't think it's as simple as saying that, because she has 23 slams, she is definitively greater than Federer who has 18 slams. You can't simply do a cross-gender comparison like that.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
The performer is the individual player regardless of gender. Brands, types, etc. are really irrelevant in this comparison.
Well, yeah, but that isn't relevant. We're talking about professional tennis players here; not pros vs. joes. Yes, one can make a distinction about which player performed the composition more skillfully. That's not the topic anyway, lol.

You are saying comparing musical instruments in my previous example = comparing racquets, I'm saying that isn't the equivalent.

I think you understand perfectly, you are just trying to confuse the issue.
 

dParis

Hall of Fame
Serena is straight trippin'. She has the nerve, as someone who has made their fortune and notoriety as a public figure, to tell anyone not to talk about her? Especially as complimentary as JMac had been? GTFO. If Serena has words for anyone, it should be that NPR hack. Serena should shut down her social media and just enjoy her privacy.

Hey, if a high school tennis player dominates his or her competition like no other and wins multiple state-wide titles, does that make them the tennis GOAT, no qualifiers?

Lol, Jmac's daughters are angry at him. I'm sure this has estranged him from his daughters. Or, they simply think, like I do, that Serena would beat their dad. The media juice that some are so eager to slurp up...

Well, McEnroe is Mr. "You Can't Be Serious!" :)

ESPNW: IS SHE THE GOAT, MALE OR FEMALE?

ESPN engaging in the same nonsense as NPR. Not surprising.
 

Mr.Lob

G.O.A.T.
Serena is a part time player for the past six or seven years yes the tour sucks but she still wins giving zero effort. Graf would be on like 12 to 15 slams had Monica not gotten stabbed, pre stabbing monica won 8 slams in 3 years. And was younger and better. Serena over Steffi easy

You're going to take around 6 slams from Graf, but none from Serena? The Serena who everyone admits has played in a weak mug era "part time" for the last 6-7 years? If you take 6 away from Graf, only fair you take at least 8 away from Serena.

Looking back on a lot of Serenas recent slam wins, you're right about the effort part. Seems disinterested and unmotivated until defeat was staring her in the face, then comes back and wins. Certainly speaks of her greatness to be able to spot opponents a set then come back and win. Also, speaks of the level of her competition.
 

Pre980

Rookie
Someone needs a history book.
I assure you--I don't. If you knew my background, you'd feel foolish for saying that.
Provide any evidence where the achievement of and winning the major was considered of lesser value for women. You cannot, as its never been officially or unofficial stated. In your rant, you missed the fact that prize money became an issue in part because the actual achievement was always considered having equal value,
You're assuming this to be true without appealing to any logic whatsoever. Furthermore, I'd ask: if the "actual achievement was always considered having equal value" as you incorrectly suggest, then why didn't women always earn the same prize money amount as men? Was it because tournament directors were being big meanies? Or was it because the accomplishment of a woman winning a slam was considered lesser?
therefore the players should be earning the same amount. If there was any official position that (for example) the male U.S. Open singles title won by a man was of greater value than that one by a woman, you--and the rest of this little group certainly would have posted it in the thousands of posts dedicated to belittling women.
We're talking about the history of a sport where the oldest and arguably most prestigious event dates back to the late 19th century and you can't honestly see the necessary concessions that you need to make in order to move forward with your position? Yet, you group me (and anyone else who opposes your view), into "a little group"...with other "thousands of posts belittling women." You are the problem. You are the one saying that those who disagree with your position are "belittling women." I'd love to hear your presentation on how I've belittled women with my posts or supported belittling women. What a joke.



No evidence, but flaming. Typical of your ilk.
My "evidence" is logic. You don't really think there's a quote out there that I should go dig up for you or for which I should spend my time searching that is going to appease You? I know that our discussion is finished at this point though because you'd rather resort to criticizing me instead of my argument; and that's fine. I've debated people like you before. You're not the first and you won't be the last, I'm sure.

Thanks to truth frightening the insecure of TTW, I will post it again, just to see the male irrelevancy crisis create rage all over again:



There's no male with her majors record, and they will never catch or surpass it. No current younger male exhibits any ability to even squeeze out one major, and like a rerun of a TV series you've seen enough times to quote, they walk on court to lose to the same players--some old enough that they're standing in the doorway of retirement.

Cry, flame or do whatever you want, but Serena's achievements left all other active players in the dust years ago. Wonderful.
Truth frightening. Bahahaha! You're a real gem. You can have the last word if you like. Your position had been refuted, whether you like it or not.
 
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Pre980

Rookie
You are saying comparing musical instruments in my previous example = comparing racquets, I'm saying that isn't the equivalent.
I'm saying it doesn't matter! Nobody is debating gear.

I think you understand perfectly, you are just trying to confuse the issue.
You really believe I'm trying to conflate and confuse issues? My point in your analogy is very simple: you originally compared instruments and said, "you can't say a piano is superior to a violin (paraphrase)." I said, "you don't compare the instruments, which are inanimate objects; you compare the musicians who control the instruments (paraphrase)." Musicians can be compared. That's it. Simple.
 

Pre980

Rookie
It really sucks that there's a climate of thinking out there that essentially says, "If the truth isn't popular or causes discomfort then don't tell the truth." McEnroe didn't say anything wrong. His collective opposition on this issue has completely and utterly missed the point all in the name of making this a "feminist" issue. It's mind boggling really.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
McEnroe says Trump offered him money to play Serena or Venus. Watch his interview.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...fered-him-money-to-play-serena-venus-williams

"Over the course of time, people including our now-president—he wasn't president at the time—have offered me sums of money to play Serena or Venus," McEnroe said (h/t For The Win's Charles Curtis). "I don't know why I'm always the guy they want to play … But at any rate, I believe I have some ability left and I had pride when I played. Why don't they ask her to play Roger Federer or Rafael Nadal on clay, see how that goes?"

McEnroe didn't provide a time frame for when he received offers to play the Williams sisters.

Venus and Serena's respective resumes speak for themselves, and the two stars don't need to validate their legacies by playing a marquee male star. Venus is a seven-time Grand Slam champion, while Serena's 23 Grand Slam titles are second all time behind Margaret Court.
 
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Mr.Lob

G.O.A.T.
Serena is straight trippin'. She has the nerve, as someone who has made their fortune and notoriety as a public figure, to tell anyone not to talk about her? Especially as complimentary as JMac had been? GTFO. If Serena has words for anyone, it should be that NPR hack. Serena should shut down her social media and just enjoy her privacy.

Hey, if a high school tennis player dominates his or her competition like no other and wins multiple state-wide titles, does that make them the tennis GOAT, no qualifiers?

Lol, Jmac's daughters are angry at him. I'm sure this has estranged him from his daughters. Or, they simply think, like I do, that Serena would beat their dad. The media juice that some are so eager to slurp up...



ESPN engaging in the same nonsense as NPR. Not surprising.

I'm disappointed in Jmack, as he's handled this incident like a chump. The NPR hack sounded like someone who wouldn't know which end of a tennis request to hold. All Mack had to do is clearly articulate what the interviewer said, how he clarified her question, then answered clearly and precisely. Instead Mac started this stupid, "Me and my big mouth" , and "my daughter's are angry at me." ... admitting guilt over something he has absolutely no reason to feel guilty about.
 

Mick

Legend
on the other hand, if you subscribe to the NPR reporter's view that Serena is the greatest tennis player ever, regardless of sex, It's no disappointment for old timer McEnroe to lose to her. Come on, according to the commentator from Australia, Serena could even beat Nick Kyrgios :D
 

mika1979

Professional
You're going to take around 6 slams from Graf, but none from Serena? The Serena who everyone admits has played in a weak mug era "part time" for the last 6-7 years? If you take 6 away from Graf, only fair you take at least 8 away from Serena.

Looking back on a lot of Serenas recent slam wins, you're right about the effort part. Seems disinterested and unmotivated until defeat was staring her in the face, then comes back and wins. Certainly speaks of her greatness to be able to spot opponents a set then come back and win. Also, speaks of the level of her competition.
Graf's were gifted to her by her fan stabbing monica in Germany. I think she taking only six away was generous. Serena has stopped taking it seriously for a long time and she keeps doing enough just with her ability to be at the top. The tour is weak but it is what it is. Graf would be the only great champion in both mens and women's tennis with such an asterisk next to her name. These forums are littered with threads about eras and such but it is no cause for taking titles of people.
 

mika1979

Professional
A juvenile insult to the whole WTA and all the pros who give it their all, typical of this thread and the anti WTA faction of tt.
So wrong I follow tennis even the women's shambles. Most of the 90s it was the womens tennis that had the excitement and brought people in. But in the last decade it has gone to crap. The product sucks the matches are of a terrible standard and the girls are so fundamentally incomplete as tennis players. It wasn't always like this but it is now. It definitely is easier to be a top 50 female player than male. The times we live in are pathetic as a person can't even criticise without being accused of insulting something. Go watch some videos the two games have gone in completely different directions. Also harden up
 

Gazelle

G.O.A.T.
Someone needs a history book. Provide any evidence where the achievement of and winning the major was considered of lesser value for women. You cannot, as its never been officially or unofficial stated. In your rant, you missed the fact that prize money became an issue in part because the actual achievement was always considered having equal value, therefore the players should be earning the same amount. If there was any official position that (for example) the male U.S. Open singles title won by a man was of greater value than that one by a woman, you--and the rest of this little group certainly would have posted it in the thousands of posts dedicated to belittling women.



No evidence, but flaming. Typical of your ilk.

Thanks to truth frightening the insecure of TTW, I will post it again, just to see the male irrelevancy crisis create rage all over again:



There's no male with her majors record, and they will never catch or surpass it. No current younger male exhibits any ability to even squeeze out one major, and like a rerun of a TV series you've seen enough times to quote, they walk on court to lose to the same players--some old enough that they're standing in the doorway of retirement.

Cry, flame or do whatever you want, but Serena's achievements left all other active players in the dust years ago. Wonderful.

Sorry, but easy opponents. 90% of them can't even serve properly. Meanwhile Federer, Djokovic, Nadal have to go up against each other, having to divide slams between them, that's why they have less than Serena.

Each of them could play against local kindergarten players and rack up 50 slams, but that wouldn't make them greatest ever.

You have the numbers, but you lack the perspective.


Also, Esther Vergeer has 45? slams. So she must be the greatest ever (male or female). I could say denying this is discriminating towards disabled people, just like people call McEnroe discriminating towards women.
 

reaper

Legend
Say we could put a 25 year old Laver against a 25 year old Fed. Would Laver win if they both used wood rackets?

Laver would probably win with wooden racquets, Federer with modern equipment. A better analogy might be in a sport where there's little change in equipment. Who was greater: Carl Lewis at the 1984 Olympics or Jesse Owens at the 1936 Olympics. There's no question who was better as recorded by times, but who was greater is less clear.
 
C

Chadillac

Guest
Serena may well be the greatest tennis player of all time, male or female......but I don't think it's as simple as saying that, because she has 23 slams, she is definitively greater than Federer who has 18 slams. You can't simply do a cross-gender comparison like that.

The only record serena owns is the most Ao's. She lacks weeks at #1, tournaments won and matches won.
 

rmontro

Rookie
Let's say we start two leagues. We put Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic in one league. And Murray and two scrubs in the other. Let them play for ten years. If Murray ends up with the most championships, does that make him the greatest tennis player of all time? It's absurd. I just can't say Serena is the greatest tennis player ever, it doesn't sound right.

Say we could put a 25 year old Laver against a 25 year old Fed. Would Laver win if they both used wood rackets?
I think the newer players would struggle getting used to the wooden rackets. The sweet spot was way smaller.
 

xFullCourtTenniSx

Hall of Fame
Let's say we start two leagues. We put Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic in one league. And Murray and two scrubs in the other. Let them play for ten years. If Murray ends up with the most championships, does that make him the greatest tennis player of all time? It's absurd. I just can't say Serena is the greatest tennis player ever, it doesn't sound right.


I think the newer players would struggle getting used to the wooden rackets. The sweet spot was way smaller.

(Cheap shot, I know, but...) It's sad that you had to say "if" Murray ends up with the most championships. People constantly say "the big four", and we can't even be sure that Murray would dominate a league without the trinity and win more majors than the trinity fighting it out for every title.

Playing with a wood racket isn't that difficult. The worst part is the stiffness. If you use a reinforced racket like Borg did, then it's no problem. The smaller headsize is a bit rougher for some on volleys (some say they love it), but the slower balls should make up for it.
 

rmontro

Rookie
(Cheap shot, I know, but...) It's sad that you had to say "if" Murray ends up with the most championships. People constantly say "the big four", and we can't even be sure that Murray would dominate a league without the trinity and win more majors than the trinity fighting it out for every title.

Playing with a wood racket isn't that difficult. The worst part is the stiffness. If you use a reinforced racket like Borg did, then it's no problem. The smaller headsize is a bit rougher for some on volleys (some say they love it), but the slower balls should make up for it.
You're right about the stiffness. Watch some old matches between Laver and Borg or somebody, and it looks like they're hitting the ball back and forth with a couple of 2x4s. The sweet spot is definitely much smaller on those old rackets though, it's not just the material, it's the head size. I'm old enough that used to play with the wooden rackets, and I remember the transition to composite materials. The local sporting goods store was selling wooden rackets for $60, and then almost overnight, the price dropped to $10 so they could clear them out.

I thought at the time that the new rackets would help the serve and volley game (and maybe it did for awhile). But no one seems to be able to pull that style off anymore. Maybe it has to do with slowing the courts down to de-emphasize the serve?

As for Murray, I wasn't looking to slight him, wasn't my point. Maybe I should have said "when" he ends up with the most championships. Point was, league A had by far the hardest competition, but (hypothetically) Murray would rack up far more "achievements" in league B. That wouldn't make him the greatest tennis player ever, IMO.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
Never mind men vs women, Serena vs McEnroe. Even the tennis players of either sex using the racquets of the 60's can't be compared to the players of either sex using the racquets today 50 years later. The whole sport kept changing as the technology kept shifting. It didn't just make one change, it KEPT changing. The situation already becomes hard to validly compare even a few years apart. The power and spin output potential of today’s 2010 racquets is way higher than 1960’s racquets, if Fed/Nad are level 10 at it with 2010 racquets, the best wood era players of the 60's were also level 10 at what they did with their wood racquets. Both are at maximum best with their tools. That’s why as Laver said, you got to stay in your own era. Thus, you also have to stay in your own league. And there we go back to the boxing divisions example. Sugar Ray Robinson isn't an inferior product because he couldn't beat a heavy weight.
 

rmontro

Rookie
That’s why as Laver said, you got to stay in your own era. Thus, you also have to stay in your own league. And there we go back to the boxing divisions example. Sugar Ray Robinson isn't an inferior product because he couldn't beat a heavy weight.
Since you have to stay in your own league, what is the problem with stating the league? Why is it wrong to say Serena is the greatest female tennis player (if that's what you believe)? If someone said Federer was the greatest male tennis player, would anyone bat an eye at the inclusion of the word "male"? Tennis is already divided between male and female, why is it a problem to use those divisions?
 

70後

Hall of Fame
Since you have to stay in your own league, what is the problem with stating the league? Why is it wrong to say Serena is the greatest female tennis player (if that's what you believe)? If someone said Federer was the greatest male tennis player, would anyone bat an eye at the inclusion of the word "male"? Tennis is already divided between male and female, why is it a problem to use those divisions?

And why are you asking me when that is where I am already coming from?

McEnroe and various posters didn't keep it there.
 

xFullCourtTenniSx

Hall of Fame
You're right about the stiffness. Watch some old matches between Laver and Borg or somebody, and it looks like they're hitting the ball back and forth with a couple of 2x4s. The sweet spot is definitely much smaller on those old rackets though, it's not just the material, it's the head size. I'm old enough that used to play with the wooden rackets, and I remember the transition to composite materials. The local sporting goods store was selling wooden rackets for $60, and then almost overnight, the price dropped to $10 so they could clear them out.

I thought at the time that the new rackets would help the serve and volley game (and maybe it did for awhile). But no one seems to be able to pull that style off anymore. Maybe it has to do with slowing the courts down to de-emphasize the serve?

As for Murray, I wasn't looking to slight him, wasn't my point. Maybe I should have said "when" he ends up with the most championships. Point was, league A had by far the hardest competition, but (hypothetically) Murray would rack up far more "achievements" in league B. That wouldn't make him the greatest tennis player ever, IMO.

The reason S&V died out is because the larger head makes playing defense significantly easier. You can hit bigger returns, creating more difficult first volleys, as well as hit ridiculous passing shots with the current rackets (you've seen the BS Nadal has come up with). Before, passing shots had to be hit with pure placement. Now, you can literally shoot a bullet past the guy. The size of the sweet spot doesn't matter. Pros are more than accurate enough to consistently find the center with some practice. Borg was able to play the modern game with wood rackets. No reason why modern players can't do the same (many would struggle due to the average skill of volleys being significantly worse, but they can still play a solid baseline game).
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Also, Esther Vergeer has 45? slams. So she must be the greatest ever (male or female). I could say denying this is discriminating towards disabled people, just like people call McEnroe discriminating towards women.

Indeed, you could but then to say that is apparently insulting WTA by calling them handicapped. Don't ask me how. It shows that the "Serena is greatest" club wants to have it both ways. If it's only about being best in one's league, then indeed Esther should be hailed as the greatest of all time. So this is all about denying that the men play a higher level of tennis. Yes, we get that that is because the men are physically stronger and so too an able bodied player enjoys physical advantages over a wheelchair player. I still don't understand why many of those taking issue with Mac's comments don't have an issue with the NPR reporter's question. And it's not a one off dumb interviewer, there are many who believe there is a legit case to call Serena best/greatest. Not one of the best/one of the greatest which is easier to get behind but unequivocally greatest (one and only). Surely it is not very difficult to see that that is dumb and if somebody then has to point out the reality in response, that's not an insult. An interviewer has a responsibility to be reasonably educated on the topic of discussion.
 
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rmontro

Rookie
And why are you asking me when that is where I am already coming from?

McEnroe and various posters didn't keep it there.
I disagree completely, it was the reporter who wouldn't keep it there.

There is no reason at all not to be satisfied with the statement "Serena is the best female tennis player" (if you believe that), but that reporter wasn't. She took exception to that statement, and wanted Mac to take it further.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
I disagree completely, it was the reporter who wouldn't keep it there.

There is no reason at all not to be satisfied with the statement "Serena is the best female tennis player" (if you believe that), but that reporter wasn't. She took exception to that statement, and wanted Mac to take it further.

That is purposefully ignoring McEnroe's prior statements on and on about how he could "take Serena" in a match. He is always borrowing Serena to publicise himself, successfully, as this 17 page thread already proves.

So to speak, the reporter wittingly or unwittingly set up the ball that McEnroe wanted, McEnroe put away the overhead, and smirks in triumph. As usual. He could have refused to play this ball and simply caught the ball putting an end to the play by saying, "that question is unanswerable. Men and women are two leagues. There is no point drawing a comparison when they do not compete against each other". Nobody could have forced him to play that overhead if he didn't want to. Doesn't have to be agreed on, just a mutual, I give you the ball you want, you give me the shot I want.

With your previous response, you were attempting to make it seem like you were countering something I had said with a self contradiction, which I had not made.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
The more replies, of one form or another, a feeder like McEnroe gets in response to himself, the more he has just cause to smirk. This is his game after all.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
Indeed, you could but then to say that is apparently insulting WTA by calling them handicapped. Don't ask me how. It shows that the "Serena is greatest" club wants to have it both ways. If it's only about being best in one's league, then indeed Esther should be hailed as the greatest of all time. So this is all about denying that the men play a higher level of tennis. Yes, we get that that is because the men are physically stronger and so too an able bodied player enjoys physical advantages over a wheelchair player. I still don't understand why man of those taking issue with Mac's comments don't have an issue with the NPR reporter's question. And it's not a one off dumb interviewer, there are many who believe there is a legit case to call Serena best/greatest. Not one of the best/one of the greatest which is easier to get behind but unequivocally greatest (one and only). Surely it is not very difficult to see that that is dumb and if somebody then has to point out the reality in response, that's not an insult. An interviewer has a responsibility to be reasonably educated on the topic of discussion.

If you really believe that, I will try one last time to get my point across; put a man in a wheel chair and playing by wc tennis rules, lets see if he can really still play at a higher level than the wheel chair player. (I respect Esther, don't want to drag her into this.)

McEnroe has sucked enough energy.
 
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stapletonj

Hall of Fame
Hasn't Martina played against Connors and won a decent number of games than what Serena accomplished against the no name drunkard ?
actually, I was at that match. Martina got 1/2 both doubles alleys against Connors, and Connors only got one serve.

The score was 7-5, 6-2, Connors.

It was in Vegas. Connors was toying with her the 1st set.
 

Boom-Boom

Legend
actually, I was at that match. Martina got 1/2 both doubles alleys against Connors, and Connors only got one serve.

The score was 7-5, 6-2, Connors.

It was in Vegas. Connors was toying with her the 1st set.

Yeah think Connors pretended in his biography he had put a $1 million bet on him not losing more than 8 games :D:cool:
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
If you really believe that, I will try one last time to get my point across; put a man in a wheel chair and playing by wc tennis rules, lets see if he can really still play at a higher level than Esther. Apologies to Esther, with that response I have no intention of dragging her into this mud that McEnroe has self created, self directed, self acted.

McEnroe has sucked enough energy.


Wonderful, so now you are trying to make it out like I said any man (including perhaps suresh the great) is superior to the WTA level which I didn't. When I said the men, I meant the ATP and the overall level of ATP is higher than the WTA. It doesn't matter if a top ranked WTA player might beat the scrubs of ATP; they wouldn't beat the top ATP players who play by the same rules as the WTA players, especially so at non slam events which are BO3 for both men and women.

If that is not supposed to be relevant, then the fact that Esther plays wheelchair tennis shouldn't be either. We should be just counting no. of slams, by which she is way ahead of Serena or Federer. Didn't you, among others say, it's about being great in one's league? Fine, Esther is, undeniably. So in either event, Mac is not remiss in not calling Serena the best player with no gender prefix. There is nothing wrong in what Mac said. It's just that a false standard of respectfulness has been built up which he is then expected to adhere to; a false standard which includes Serena but apparently excludes Esther.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
Wonderful, so now you are trying to make it out like I said any man (including perhaps suresh the great) is superior to the WTA level which I didn't. When I said the men, I meant the ATP and the overall level of ATP is higher than the WTA. It doesn't matter if a top ranked WTA player might beat the scrubs of ATP; they wouldn't beat the top ATP players who play by the same rules as the WTA players, especially so at non slam events which are BO3 for both men and women.

And when I said put a man in a wheel chair, I of course meant one of the men you were saying were playing a higher level of tennis (than the women).

Their physical output is higher, that doesn't make their level of mastery higher.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
It doesn't matter if a top ranked WTA player might beat the scrubs of ATP; they wouldn't beat the top ATP players who play by the same rules as the WTA players, especially so at non slam events which are BO3 for both men and women.

Same rules but the games are separate. If the ATP were playing the same game, as I said, transplant their heads onto a woman, THEN they are playing the same game.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
And when I said put a man in a wheel chair, I of course meant one of the men you were saying were playing a higher level of tennis (than the women).

Their physical output is higher, that doesn't make their level of mastery higher.

That's not what's being discussed here though. A wheelchair tennis player, however great, cannot match a male or female able bodied player UNLESS they are also restricted to a wheelchair. Likewise, unless you handicap a male player, to be specific a top ATP pro, with rules like only first serve and full court for the woman, she is not going to get close to him. The distinction in absolute level is clear cut and best is an absolute word. Ergo, the question the interviewer asked was moronic and I cannot stand the hypocrisy of people giving her a free pass and trashing Mc for answering it honestly. No, come down on her like a ton of bricks instead so that the media stops baiting people like that or sends over journalists who have done their homework.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Same rules but the games are separate. If the ATP were playing the same game, as I said, transplant their heads onto a woman, THEN they are playing the same game.
Yawn and I have heard this argument before and as long as this physical difference exists, a WTA player cannot play better than an ATP player. I am fine with "don't compare"; I am not ok with people criticising Mac for just saying it honestly. He is not required to give all these qualifiers that you are as you somehow seem to believe he should have. He was categorically asked why Serena couldn't be called best in general and he speculated, not unfairly, on how Serena would fare in the ATP. If the topic is so politically incorrect, then just don't ask the question, pretty simple. Don't put the onus on the person all the time to give a politically correct answer that suits the narrative you are comfortable with. There was nothing there in essence; so JMac had called Serena the best female player and this interviewer proceeds to make it out like there's something wrong with that. What on earth is wrong with "best female player"? She plays on the WTA and is the best there.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
That's not what's being discussed here though. A wheelchair tennis player, however great, cannot match a male or female able bodied player UNLESS they are also restricted to a wheelchair. Likewise, unless you handicap a male player, to be specific a top ATP pro, with rules like only first serve and full court for the woman, she is not going to get close to him. The distinction in absolute level is clear cut and best is an absolute word. Ergo, the question the interviewer asked was moronic and I cannot stand the hypocrisy of people giving her a free pass and trashing Mc for answering it honestly. No, come down on her like a ton of bricks instead so that the media stops baiting people like that or sends over journalists who have done their homework.

But the problem is, McEnroe did not limit himself to just qualifying just that statement. He could have just said to the reporter; that is because men and women are different and their games are apples and oranges. Instead, he went off on a whole rant. He took the bait and pulled the baiter in with it.

The absolute level is clear cut, completely true, and completely inconsequential because the leagues are divided for very good reasons in the firt place.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
Yawn and I have heard this argument before and as long as this physical difference exists, a WTA player cannot play better than an ATP player. I am fine with "don't compare"; I am not ok with people criticising Mac for just saying it honestly. He is not required to give all these qualifiers that you are as you somehow seem to believe he should have. He was categorically asked why Serena couldn't be called best in general and he speculated, not unfairly, on how Serena would fare in the ATP. If the topic is so politically incorrect, then just don't ask the question, pretty simple. Don't put the onus on the person all the time to give a politically correct answer that suits the narrative you are comfortable with. There was nothing there in essence; so JMac had called Serena the best female player and this interviewer proceeds to make it out like there's something wrong with that. What on earth is wrong with "best female player"? She plays on the WTA and is the best there.

You can't rebut it because it is the simple truth. Nor was McEnroe required to speculate, fairly or unfairly, on how Serena would fare in the ATP because the reporter did not ask that. The reporter didn't ask McEnroe "where Serena would be ranked if she blah blah blah." It was McEnroe who ranted on this.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
There was nothing there in essence; so JMac had called Serena the best female player and this interviewer proceeds to make it out like there's something wrong with that.

"Why say female player". How would you honestly reply to that question? Would you rant on about 700 in the world when nobody asked you to?

If it were me, I would just tell her (the reporter) there is nothing wrong with saying best or greatest female player since Serena is playing womens tennis and not mens or wc tennis. That simple.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
But the problem is, McEnroe did not limit himself to just qualifying just that statement. He could have just said to the reporter; that is because men and women are different and their games are apples and oranges. Instead, he went off on a whole rant. He took the bait and pulled the baiter in with it.

The absolute level is clear cut, completely true, and completely inconsequential because the leagues are divided for very good reasons in the firt place.

It is not for YOU to insist what he should and shouldn't say. It was a fair answer. To answer your other post also, there is nothing to rebut here. As I said, you have built up a false standard of respectfulness by which even speculating on how she might fare in the ATP (to address a question of why she shouldn't be called best player) is somehow horrifying. Please reflect on what you've got sucked into. Even if he was ranting, so ****ing what? Why is it supposed to be out of bounds for somebody to rant? There is nothing there that discriminates against Serena or the WTA at all. Some people might be offended by what he said, but one has the right to offend...er at least so long as we continue to believe in a society that advances and innovates instead of demanding blind obeisance and yes-men.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
"Why say female player". How would you honestly reply to that question? Would you rant on about 700 in the world when nobody asked you to?

If it were me, I would just tell her (the reporter) there is nothing wrong with saying best or greatest female player since Serena is playing womens tennis and not mens or wc tennis. That simple.

It's his choice and there's nothing disrespectful about that. You are acting like people should only speak when spoken to. Thank you for proving my point to me. You believe in muzzling free speech so as to get people to live up to some false standard of respectful behaviour.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
It is not for YOU to insist what he should and shouldn't say. It was a fair answer. To answer your other post also, there is nothing to rebut here. As I said, you have built up a false standard of respectfulness by which even speculating on how she might fare in the ATP (to address a question of why she shouldn't be called best player) is somehow horrifying. Please reflect on what you've got sucked into. Even if he was ranting, so ****ing what? Why is it supposed to be out of bounds for somebody to rant? There is nothing there that discriminates against Serena or the WTA at all. Some people might be offended by what he said, but one has the right to offend...er at least so long as we continue to believe in a society that advances and innovates instead of demanding blind obeisance and yes-men.

I didn't insist on what he should or shouldn't say. I said "COULD", this is simply to point to a road McEnroe could have taken. If I said, McEnroe is not allowed to say this, must say that, then your point stands. I haven't build up any standard of respectfulness, I don't think it is horrifying, your word, I think it is pointless. Yes, so you agree McEnroe was just ranting, so you agree that with his whole response, he wasn't only responding to a question but ran with it and that his role wasn't passive but active.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
It's his choice and there's nothing disrespectful about that. You are acting like people should only speak when spoken to. Thank you for proving my point to me. You believe in muzzling free speech so as to get people to live up to some false standard of respectful behaviour.

I said nothing about disrespect or respect. You talked about how McEnroe was just answering honestly, when he was anything but. I gave you a chance to demonstrate just what kind of a response to that answer you consider an honest response, you can't come up with it except to tell me what you think I believe, which you aren't a position to say.
 
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