Serena Williams -- where does she ranked compared to the other greats of the open era

Where does Serena Williams rank among the female open era greats

  • # 1-3 (please specify)

    Votes: 32 54.2%
  • # 4

    Votes: 9 15.3%
  • # 5

    Votes: 3 5.1%
  • # 6

    Votes: 5 8.5%
  • # 7

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • # 8

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • # 9

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • # 10

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • # 11-15

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Below #15

    Votes: 5 8.5%

  • Total voters
    59
Serena Williams -- where is her place among the greats of the open era

I just wonder where you think Serena's place is among the female open era greats. For orientation, below are the players you'd probaly have to compare her to.


Margaret Court
Ann Haydon-Jones
Billie Jean King
Nancy Richey Gunter
Virginia Wade

Evonne Goolagong
Chris Evert
Martina Navratilova
Tracy Austin
Hana Mandlikova

Steffi Graf
Gabriela Sabatini
Monica Seles
Jana Novotna
Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario

Conchita Martinez
Jennifer Capriati
Mary Pierce
Martina Hingis
Lindsay Davenport

Venus Williams
Amelie Mauresmo
Justine Henin
Kim Clijsters
Maria Sharapova
 
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1. Graf
2. Court
3. Evert
4. Navratilova
5. King
6. Seles
7. Serena Williams
8. Henin
9. Goolagong
10. Venus Williams

is my order of those you listed
 
Based on Open era only players, Serena would be Behind Navratilova, Graf, Evert, Court, and King. I guess I would list those women in order as

Martina Navratilova
Steffi Graf
Chris Evert
Margaret Court
Billie Jean King

Serena Williams
Monica Seles
Justine Henin
Evonne Goolagong
Venus Williams

Hana Mandlikova
Martina Hingis
Tracy Austin
Lindsay Davenport
Ann Haydon Jones

Virginia Wade
Arantxa Sanchez Vicario
Mary Pierce
Nancy Richey
Maria Sharapova
Jennifer Capriati

Gabriela Sabatini
Kim Clijsters
Amelie Mauresmo
Jana Novotna
Conchita Martinez

So Open Era only I'd Rate Serena at number 6....factoring in pre open era Serena falls to number 9.
 
1. Graf
2. Court
3. Evert
4. Navratilova
5. King
6. Seles
7. Serena Williams
8. Henin
9. Goolagong
10. Venus Williams

is my order of those you listed

Very similar list to mine, and same top 10, although only one plyer occupies the same place in our rankings -- Serena. I'd swap Graf and Court, Evert and Navratilova, King and Seles, and order Goolagong-Venus-Henin, but all this is within the margin of error.

If Serena continues to go as strongly as she does now though, #5 is not without reach.
 
Very similar list to mine, and same top 10, although only one plyer occupies the same place in our rankings -- Serena. I'd swap Graf and Court, Evert and Navratilova, King and Seles, and order Goolagong-Venus-Henin, but all this is within the margin of error.

If Serena continues to go as strongly as she does now though, #5 is not without reach.

I agree Serena could reach #5. That is the highest I believe she can go at this point. Her massive 2004-2006 slump killed any chances of going higher when Graf, Evert, Court, and Navratilova are pretty much the undisputed top 4 of Open Era players anyway. She could not suffer that major mid career lapse if she wanted to reach any of those 4.
 
My top 10 open era list is:
1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Evert
4. Court
5. King
6. Serena Williams
7. Monica Seles
8. Justine Henin
9. Evonne Goolagong
10. Venus Williams

Yes Serena could catch up to King I think (although I'd guess she won't), but Court is too far away and she doesn't have anywhere near enough time left to aim for the #4 spot.
 
I agree Serena could reach #5. That is the highest I believe she can go at this point. Her massive 2004-2006 slump killed any chances of going higher when Graf, Evert, Court, and Navratilova are pretty much the undisputed top 4 of Open Era players anyway. She could not suffer that major mid career lapse if she wanted to reach any of those 4.

Depends on how much longer she keeps playing. Winning 3 of 4 slams in a year and being consistently the far-and-away #1 or 2 player on grass annually means she can probably challenge for slams for the next 5+ years IF SHE WANTS TO (I don't think she'll last that long, but she could if she got back in 02-04 shape); if she won an average of 2 slams/year for the next 4 years (improbable but not impossible), she'd pass both Navratilova and Evert in total slams.

That being said, given how things are now, I agree that it will be hard to pass Navratilova or Evert.
 
Depends on how much longer she keeps playing. Winning 3 of 4 slams in a year and being consistently the far-and-away #1 or 2 player on grass annually means she can probably challenge for slams for the next 5+ years IF SHE WANTS TO (I don't think she'll last that long, but she could if she got back in 02-04 shape); if she won an average of 2 slams/year for the next 4 years (improbable but not impossible), she'd pass both Navratilova and Evert in total slams.

That being said, given how things are now, I agree that it will be hard to pass Navratilova or Evert.

No offense but you seem to have a vastly exagerrated forecast of how long all elite athletes (I am even thinking your comments on Tiger Woods on golf also) will last at the very top consistently. Navratilova was the latest blooming great player in history and won only 1 slam after age 30. Serena is going to be 28 at years end, she isnt going to be at the very top for even close to 5+ years whether she wants to or not. The aging process will soon take effect, she is already a lesser player than what she was 5-6 years ago even if her # of wins vs a much weakened field deceive that somewhat, and the womens field will not stay as bad as it is now forever.

Also even if she did surpass Evert and Navratilova in slam wins (which I highly doubt) it wouldnt mean she would rank over them all time. The extremely weak womens field from 2006 to currently, barring improvements, her giant mid career hole where she did almost nothing for 3 years, and her disinterest in non slam tournaments, would all work against her and require her to win far more majors than Evert and Navratilova to be considered seriously vs them. Although in fairness to Serena the 1982-1986 field that Navratilova lorded over was probably just as weak as the current field overall.
 
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No offense but you seem to have a vastly exagerrated forecast of how long all elite athletes (I am even thinking your comments on Tiger Woods on golf also) will last at the very top consistently. Navratilova was the latest blooming great player in history and won only 1 slam after age 30. Serena is going to be 28 at years end, she isnt going to be at the very top for even close to 5+ years whether she wants to or not. The aging process will soon take effect, she is already a lesser player than what she was 5-6 years ago even if her # of wins vs a much weakened field deceive that somewhat, and the womens field will not stay as bad as it is now forever.

Also even if she did surpass Evert and Navratilova in slam wins (which I highly doubt) it wouldnt mean she would rank over them all time. The extremely weak womens field from 2006 to currently, barring improvements, her giant mid career hole where she did almost nothing for 3 years, and her disinterest in non slam tournaments, would all work against her and require her to win far more majors than Evert and Navratilova to be considered seriously vs them. Although in fairness to Serena the 1982-1986 field that Navratilova lorded over was probably just as weak as the current field overall.

I didn't consider the current field that weak until Henin's retirement. But in 2008, with Henin, Clijsters prematurely retired and Sharapova out injured, there was noone with starpower left except for the Williams sisters, who had been around for ages.

I have a gutfeeling though that 2008 was the low, and that ladies' tennis will gradually get better going forward. Who knows, perhaps in 5 years we are in another great era.
 
No offense but you seem to have a vastly exagerrated forecast of how long all elite athletes (I am even thinking your comments on Tiger Woods on golf also) will last at the very top consistently. Navratilova was the latest blooming great player in history and won only 1 slam after age 30. Serena is going to be 28 at years end, she isnt going to be at the very top for even close to 5+ years whether she wants to or not. The aging process will soon take effect, she is already a lesser player than what she was 5-6 years ago even if her # of wins vs a much weakened field deceive that somewhat, and the womens field will not stay as bad as it is now forever.

Also even if she did surpass Evert and Navratilova in slam wins (which I highly doubt) it wouldnt mean she would rank over them all time. The extremely weak womens field from 2006 to currently, barring improvements, her giant mid career hole where she did almost nothing for 3 years, and her disinterest in non slam tournaments, would all work against her and require her to win far more majors than Evert and Navratilova to be considered seriously vs them. Although in fairness to Serena the 1982-1986 field that Navratilova lorded over was probably just as weak as the current field overall.

I believe I'm pretty realistic about the lifespan of a professional athlete. Look at Agassi for instance -- made a slam final at age 35, most likely b/c he wasted the first 5 years of his career (as Mats Wilander noted). Serena is similar, having (as you noted) basically wasted from July 2003 thru January 2007, so on that basis, I would expect her to have an career end at an older age than most athletes -- IF SHE TAKES IT SERIOUSLY -- which is a BIG if.

About Tiger in golf, there has never been in that game a comparable physical specimen -- he basically forced all top players to have physical trainers, which was unheard of in 1996. Tiger is already 33; there is no reason he can't be competitive (i.e. a threat to win one major/year) for another 20 years given his physique, mental toughness and mental edge he has over the entire field (and will have as he starts playing against players who were kids when he won his first Masters -- similar to the psychological edge Graf had near the end of her career against young players). That's not unreasonably given that people in markedly worse shape threatened regularly in majors in their late 30s e/early 40s, and even someone like Singh -- who as great as his body has held up is not anywhere physically in Tiger's league -- is still a force in his mid-40s. Not unreasonable at all that Tiger's prime could exceed Singh's by 10 years.

Regarding Serena vs. Navratilova, the women's field has only been extremely weak since Henin retired -- the fields from 2006 till Henin's retirement were better than anything Navratilova faced in the 80s until Graf emerged in 87. Plus, the game has progressed significantly and is much more difficult in Serena's era -- you don't see moonballers win slams anymore, or even make slam finals unlike the 80s and much of the early 90s (that's not to say that prime Navratilova wouldn't munch on the current tour, but its still a fact).
 
I didn't consider the current field that weak until Henin's retirement. But in 2008, with Henin, Clijsters prematurely retired and Sharapova out injured, there was noone with starpower left except for the Williams sisters, who had been around for ages.

I have a gutfeeling though that 2008 was the low, and that ladies' tennis will gradually get better going forward. Who knows, perhaps in 5 years we are in another great era.

So far 2009 has been even worse than 2008. Venus atleast played well on surfaces other than grass last year sometimes. Jankovic is hardly great, but they played some very good tennis last year and has all but dissapeared this year. Ivanovic and Sharapova both played some great tennis in the first half of last year and have been non invisible this year. Safina keeps getting worse with each big final she plays, Dementieva still hasnt proven she can win a big title, and Kuznetsova is her usual hot and cold self. If 2008 was the low shouldnt 2009 have seen atleast a slight improvement, rather than a further regression.
 
So far 2009 has been even worse than 2008. Venus atleast played well on surfaces other than grass last year sometimes. Jankovic is hardly great, but they played some very good tennis last year and has all but dissapeared this year. Ivanovic and Sharapova both played some great tennis in the first half of last year and have been non invisible this year. Safina keeps getting worse with each big final she plays, Dementieva still hasnt proven she can win a big title, and Kuznetsova is her usual hot and cold self. If 2008 was the low shouldnt 2009 have seen atleast a slight improvement, rather than a further regression.

Sharapova is coming back at last, and with Safina, there is for the first time since Sharapova a player able to regularly reach grand slam finals -- even though she still needs to learn how to win them.
 
I believe I'm pretty realistic about the lifespan of a professional athlete. Look at Agassi for instance -- made a slam at age 35, most likely b/c he wasted the first 5 years of his career (as Mats Wilander noted).

Agassi was an extremely rare case in this modern age. The wild out of nowhere exception rather than the rule. Perhaps Serena will be some amazing exception too but I wouldnt bet on it. Anyway you should know full well by now the feelings of the mens field that Federer rose amongst and dominated, the same field Agassi had these late career runs you speak of.

Serena is similar, having (as you noted) basically wasted from July 2003 thru January 2007, so on that basis, I would expect her to have an career end at an older age than most athletes -- IF SHE TAKES IT SERIOUSLY -- which is a BIG if.

I guess that is possible. We will have to wait and see. She did contend regularly in 2004 so I dont think she was asleep just yet. Just didnt have the confidence and had some bad luck. I think 2005 (after Australia) and 2006 were the only years she sort of tanked away on purpose.

About Tiger in golf, there has never been in that game a comparable physical specimen -- he basically forced all top players to have physical trainers, which was unheard of in 1996. Tiger is already 33; there is no reason he can't be competitive (i.e. a threat to win one major/year) for another 20 years given his physique, mental toughness and mental edge he has over the entire field (and will have as he starts playing against players who were kids when he won his first Masters -- similar to the psychological edge Graf had near the end of her career against young players). That's not unreasonably given that people in markedly worse shape threatened regularly in majors in their late 30s e/early 40s, and even someone like Singh -- who as great as his body has held up is not anywhere physically in Tiger's league -- is still a force in his mid-40s. Not unreasonable at all that Tiger's prime could exceed Singh's by 10 years.

For starters I dont consider Singh in his prime anymore at all. I believe the last year of his prime was 2005. He has missed 5 or 6 cuts of majors since the start of 2006 and hasnt had a top 10 in a major for over 3 years now. He had a decent year last year outside the majors I guess, but last year was a joke with Tiger injured then out, all the so called big stars not at their best or having poor years, and the lack of top end quality or impressive up and coming stars of the current overall field outside Tiger to begin with.

No I certainly do not believe Tigers prime will last 10 years longer than Singh at all. I think that is ridiculous. 10 years is a huge amount of time, even in golf. Also Singh has not had any major injuries, Tiger has already had a major knee surgery in his early 30s. I already think he is a little past his best already in fact though he is still the best player for now (like I said I do believe the current field outside of Tiger is very weak anyway).

Regarding Serena vs. Navratilova, the women's field has only been extremely weak since Henin retired -- the fields from 2006 till Henin's retirement were better than anything Navratilova faced in the 80s until Graf emerged in 87. Plus, the game has progressed significantly and is much more difficult in Serena's era -- you don't see moonballers win slams anymore, or even make slam finals unlike the 80s and much of the early 90s (that's not to say that prime Navratilova wouldn't much on the current tour, but its still a fact).

The only regular moonballer that won a slam was Conchita Martinez. Jankovic is closer to a moonballer than any of the slam winners of the last 25 years, and while she didnt win a slam she was last year year end #1.

The fields have been weak since 2006 atleast. In 2006 the only meaningful players were Henin, Mauresmo, and Sharapova. In 2007 the only meaningful players were Henin, Serena, and Venus on fast courts. Anyway Serena only won 1 slam in 2006-2007 so whether the fields were weak since 2006 or just since 2008 dont matter much in her case. Moonballing or not you will be hard pressed to find many weaker major winners than no variety pusher Myskina, headcase without even exceptional talent Kuznetsova, and forehand only (and not even that amazing a forehand) Ivanovic who have accounted for 4 slams between them in the last 5 years. A marginal contender like Mauresmo was also able to have her greatest year ever at 27.

That said I do agree Navratilovas competition from 82-86 was extremely weak. Shriver was the perennial World #4. Austin was pretty much finished after 1981 due to injuries though she played a bit of part time tennis in 82 and 83 where she was already a total shadow of her old self (probably was playing at the level of a Maleeva sister at best those two years). Jaeger who was never that good anyway was done after 1983. Mandlikova was great when she was on, but I find overrated since people seem to judge only her top level which she hit 10% of the time in her prime, and not her consistency or overall sustained level of tennis. Evert was already past her prime a bit when Navratilova began to dominate. Graf and Sabatini were obviously extremely young and pre primed those years, though in 86 a 16 year old Graf was pretty good but still nowhere near her prime level of 88-96. Turnbull was a decent but not great player in her prime who was early 30s by then. Kohde Kilsch, Bunge, Hanika, Jordan, are not even worth noting other than a 15 year old Graf was already slapping them around. So yeah upon second though I am not sure Serenas competition is a weakness compared to Martina atleast, especialy since the field in 1999-2003 was actually pretty good.
 
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Sharapova is coming back at last, and with Safina, there is for the first time since Sharapova a player able to regularly reach grand slam finals -- even though she still needs to learn how to win them.

Maria has not proven anything in her comeback yet. Even if she plays out the rest of the year she missed as much time in 2009 as 2008, and the tennis she has played since her return isnt anywhere near some of the tennis she played in 2008, nor indicative she is a major threat again. Safina would be a good asset to the womens game if her performances in slam finals were not humiliatingly bad.
 
Maria has not proven anything in her comeback yet. Even if she plays out the rest of the year she missed as much time in 2009 as 2008, and the tennis she has played since her return isnt anywhere near some of the tennis she played in 2008, nor indicative she is a major threat again. Safina would be a good asset to the womens game if her performances in slam finals were not humiliatingly bad.

Be patient and hope.
 
Old post. Serena proved them wrong, didn't she? I still have her rated fifth, after Martina, Chris, Steffi, and Margaret, but there is a reasonable case for any of them to be picked number one. It's very close among them.
 
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I can't do it even if I wanted to, because you have cut Court and King's career in half. Now if we set the date as 1960 instead of 'open era', I need to know what our collective policy is going to be about doubles and mixed results and team play/Olympics, If we decide that, then I could make a stab, but I that doesn't mean that I would. Suffice it to say, that Serena is one of our GOAT nominees by virtually any definition. Astonishing and remarkable career.
 
I don't have a problem putting her ahead of Court...but you can make a case for Court, Serena, Graf or MN pretty easily.
 
I don't have a problem putting her ahead of Court...but you can make a case for Court, Serena, Graf or MN pretty easily.
Don’t forget Evert! She‘s second on the career wins list to Martina, because she quit to have children, and second in winning percentage to Court, with 18 slams and over 100 titles, and missed ten slams at her prime in order to play more important and lucrative tournaments at home, and she won them. As far as doubles results, I count them as an afterthought….a tiebreaker, so to speak. If two players are evenly matched, like Chris and Martina, The doubles results would tip me to favor Martina. In the modern game, it’s really difficult to do both, but Serena was the best doubles player in the world in her time…..
 
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I can't do it even if I wanted to, because you have cut Court and King's career in half. Now if we set the date as 1960 instead of 'open era', I need to know what our collective policy is going to be about doubles and mixed results and team play/Olympics, If we decide that, then I could make a stab, but I that doesn't mean that I would. Suffice it to say, that Serena is one of our GOAT nominees by virtually any definition. Astonishing and remarkable career.
Serena was amazing. Had she had better coaching for her whole career, she’d sit alone at the top. She only won 80 percent of her matches in her 20s, and almost 90 percent in her 30s.
 
Serena was amazing. Had she had better coaching for her whole career, she’d sit alone at the top. She only won 80 percent of her matches in her 20s, and almost 90 percent in her 30s.
On the other hand she was also the most inconsistent slam player of the top five.

Serena entered 81 majors between 1998-2022 (25 years) and won 23 with an 87% win/loss match ratio. That means she won 28.4 % of those 81 and reached the finals 32 times or 40.7% of the time for a finals conversion rate of 71.9%. Serena reached the semifinals 49.4% of the time she entered a slam with a semifinal conversion rate of 82.5% . She reached the QFs 66.7% of the time with a 74.1% QF conversion rate.

Serena's underbelly: I am just putting aside what happens in the fourth round, and looking downwards now, Serena lost in Rds 1, 2, or 3 of a major 21% of the time she played one, with 2 1st Rd losses, 3 2nd Rd losses and 11 Rd 3 losses

Slam Career win/loss % 1.Tie Court & Graf 90% 3. Evert 89% 4. Serena 87% 5. Martina 86%
% of majors champ won 1. Court 51.1% 2 .Graf 40.7% 3. Evert 32.1% 4. Martina 29.9% 5. Serena 28.4%
% of majors reached final 1.Court 61.7% 2. Evert 60.7% 3. Graf 55.6% 4. Martina 47.8% 5. Serena 40%
Slam finals conversion 1.Court 83% 2.Graf 73.1% 3.Serena 71.9% 4. Martina 56.3% 5. Evert 52.9%
% of major reached SF's 1. Evert 92.9% 2.Court 83% 3. Graf 66% 4. Martina 65.7% 5. Serena 49.4%
Semifinals conversion 1.Court 86.6% 2.Serena 82.5% 3. Graf 81.1% 4. Martina 72.7% 5. Evert 65.4%
% of major Reached QF's 1. Evert 96.4% 2. Court 91.5% 3. Martina 79.1% 4. Graf 74.1% 5. Serena 66.7%
QFinals conversion rate 1. Evert 96.2 2. Graf 88.1% 3. Court 83.7% 4. Martina 83% 5.Serena 74.1%
*Here a low number is a better number
* % of slam losses - Rds1-3 1.Evert 3.6% 2. Court 6.4% 3. Graf 13% 4. Martina 13.4% 5. Serena 21%
 
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Had she had better coaching for her whole career, she’d sit alone at the top.

No. What she needed was a better ATTITUDE for significant stretches of her career. She spent a good chunk of her true physical prime unfocused and out of shape, then the very tail end of her career again unfocused and convinced she could win the record-breaking Slams without professional effort and by simply showing up at the majors.

Her inability to clinch the record and clear GOAT status are entirely her own fault, and the arrogance/lack of commitment play directly into any evaluation of how "great" she truly was.
 
I don't have a problem putting her ahead of Court...but you can make a case for Court, Serena, Graf or MN pretty easily.
I'd put Graf, Martina N, Evert and Serena above Court. Court didn't face as much competition and like the mens' side, the Australian Open wasn't as popular back then and not all the top players participated in it.

On the mens' side I would separate post ~2000 and pre open eras due to Wimbledon's surface slowing down so much. Winning both Wimbledon and the French Open back to back or even in one's career was a much bigger task before it slowed down.

When is the last time you saw an Olympic 100 meter sprinter be competitive in the long distance events?
 
I'd put Navratilova, Evert and Graf before her at the very least

In no way are Evert and Navratilova ahead of Serena. None are GOAT players (no Grand Slam, no GOAT status, so they are on a Best of the Rest list). Both players displayed their acknowledgement of Serena'a superiority when she surpassed their majors at the USO:

LtgOsn7.jpg

Connolly, Court and Graf are the unquestioned GOAT female tennis players.
 
In no way are Evert and Navratilova ahead of Serena. None are GOAT players (no Grand Slam, no GOAT status, so they are on a Best of the Rest list). Both players displayed their acknowledgement of Serena'a superiority when she surpassed their majors at the USO:

LtgOsn7.jpg

Connolly, Court and Graf are the unquestioned GOAT female tennis players.
Forget Court. At her time Wimbledon was the big thing, not "slam". She has 3.
 
Don’t forget Evert! She‘s second on the career wins list to Martina, because she quit to have children, and second in winning percentage to Court, with 18 slams and over 100 titles, and missed ten slams at her prime in order to play more important and lucrative tournaments at home, and she won them. As far as doubles results, I count them as an afterthought….a tiebreaker, so to speak. If two players are evenly matched, like Chris and Martina, The doubles results would tip me to favor Martina. In the modern game, it’s really difficult to do both, but Serena was the best doubles player in the world in her time…..
No, I never forget Evert...she's right up there, maybe a scooch behind. She was one of the most consistent players ever to step on a court...of either gender. While Serena has a bushel of slams, I don't think she had the day-in-day out consistency of an Evert. Doubles? Sorry, but the doubles Venus & Serena played, never impressed me all that much. Traditional S&V doubles is the classic format...kind of lost in time, I suppose. Doubles is dying on the vine...alongside the struggles of maintaining broad(er)? interest in tennis overall. Skateboarding and pickle ball replacing so many tennis courts all over.
 
In no way are Evert and Navratilova ahead of Serena. None are GOAT players (no Grand Slam, no GOAT status, so they are on a Best of the Rest list). Both players displayed their acknowledgement of Serena'a superiority when she surpassed their majors at the USO:

LtgOsn7.jpg

Connolly, Court and Graf are the unquestioned GOAT female tennis players.
I don't rate players based simply on titles counting. There are so many contradictions coming up that way, especially ignoring context.
 
Evert and Navratilova rated Serena over themselves, and said this once she passed their majors count. They understood what they were saying, and stood by it.
 
That's because they're both classy, modest champions willing to promote the current state of the game. Doesn't mean their opinion is definitive or that number of majors should be the only metric.

Serena never had the mature Martina's dedication to the game and her legacy, and she sure as heck doesn't have her NINE Wimbledons.
 
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Serena did not need nine Wimbledon titles; she surpassed Navratilova at the majors, which she readily acknowledged.

Further, while Navratilova was honest about Serena being her superior, the "mature" Navratilova spent decades as a player, then commentator attacking Graf, all due to Graf being accurately recognized as one of the true GOAT players, when MN was not, nor did she deserve that distinction.
 
On the other hand she was also the most inconsistent slam player of the top five.

Serena entered 81 majors between 1998-2022 (25 years) and won 23 with an 87% win/loss match ratio. That means she won 28.4 % of those 81 and reached the finals 32 times or 40.7% of the time for a finals conversion rate of 71.9%. Serena reached the semifinals 49.4% of the time she entered a slam with a semifinal conversion rate of 82.5% . She reached the QFs 66.7% of the time with a 74.1% QF conversion rate.

Serena's underbelly: I am just putting aside what happens in the fourth round, and looking downwards now, Serena lost in Rds 1, 2, or 3 of a major 21% of the time she played one, with 2 1st Rd losses, 3 2nd Rd losses and 11 Rd 3 losses

Slam Career win/loss % 1.Tie Court & Graf 90% 3. Evert 89% 4. Serena 87% 5. Martina 86%
% of majors champ won 1. Court 51.1% 2 .Graf 40.7% 3. Evert 32.1% 4. Martina 29.9% 5. Serena 28.4%
% of majors reached final 1.Court 61.7% 2. Evert 60.7% 3. Graf 55.6% 4. Martina 47.8% 5. Serena 40%
Slam finals conversion 1.Court 83% 2.Graf 73.1% 3.Serena 71.9% 4. Martina 56.3% 5. Evert 52.9%
% of major reached SF's 1. Evert 92.9% 2.Court 83% 3. Graf 66% 4. Martina 65.7% 5. Serena 49.4%
Semifinals conversion 1.Court 86.6% 2.Serena 82.5% 3. Graf 81.1% 4. Martina 72.7% 5. Evert 65.4%
% of major Reached QF's 1. Evert 96.4% 2. Court 91.5% 3. Martina 79.1% 4. Graf 74.1% 5. Serena 66.7%
QFinals conversion rate 1. Evert 96.2 2. Graf 88.1% 3. Court 83.7% 4. Martina 83% 5.Serena 74.1%
*Here a low number is a better number
* % of slam losses - Rds1-3 1.Evert 3.6% 2. Court 6.4% 3. Graf 13% 4. Martina 13.4% 5. Serena 21%
Well done. I've pointed this out before, but not in such detail. Evert's ability to reach the semifinals at slams for almost 20 years is breathtaking. The other drawbacks against Serena when comparing her to her four rivals are her lack of matches won and tournaments won, and her career winning percentage. Martina N won almost twice as many matches and tournaments as Serena, and they all won at a higher percentage. I have Serena ranked fifth. The biggest argument for ranking her higher is the nature of the game that was played during her time. Full-time, excellently trained, well-paid professionals, from all over the world, playing a fast pace style that was difficult to defend against when someone was in a zone. The game was tougher than in Margaret Court's day, when she was considered a giant at 5'9", and her rivals were mostly 5'3 to 5'6. Serena, also was 5'9, but she was considerably shorter than Davenport, Sharapova, Azarenka, Venus, Safina, Ivanovic ,JAnkovic, etc etc....all of whom were 6 feet or more. Woz is 5'10. There were shorter players, like Henin Capriati, but Serena was below average in height compared to the other top players of her time.
 
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As noted earlier, Connolly, Court and Graf are the unquestioned GOAT female tennis players. It is not now, nor will it ever be Evert, Navratilova or the woman who stands above them--Serena.
 
That's because they're both classy, modest champions willing to promote the current state of the game. Doesn't mean their opinion is definitive or that number of majors should be the only metric.

Serena never had the mature Martina's dedication to the game and her legacy, and she sure as heck doesn't have her NINE Wimbledons.
Prime Evert or MN against Serena would have been something to watch.....
 
unquestioned by who exactly? maybe by YOU.....LOL

Suuurree. The players who won the Grand Slam are all on equal levels of consideration as those who were never great enough to win it (in comes padded careers, etc.). Yeah, no serious mind plays that game.
 
For me Graf and Serena are clearly the top 2, and the only question is the order. I would probably go with Serena since Serena didn't benefit from her biggest rival getting stabbed. Plus she also excelled in doubles which is the tiebreaker for me when singles is close enough.

Court would be 3rd for me, then 4th is tough between Navratilova and Evert. Singles only I would go with Evert for a far more consistent career with equal success, while if you factor in doubles some then Navratilova.

I would then put King clearly 6th. 7th is close between all of Hingis, Goolagong, Venus, Henin, Sharapova, and Seles but my order probably goes:

7. Venus
8. Seles
9. Henin
10. Sharapova
11. Goolagong
 
Well done. I've pointed this out before, but not in such detail. Evert's ability to reach the semifinals at slams for almost 20 years is breathtaking. The other drawbacks against Serena when comparing her to her four rivals are her lack of matches won and tournaments won, and her career winning percentage. Martina N won almost twice as many matches and tournaments as Serena, and they all won at a higher percentage. I have Serena ranked fifth. The biggest argument for ranking her higher is the nature of the game that was played during her time. Full-time, excellently trained, well-paid professionals, from all over the world, playing a fast pace style that was difficult to defend against when someone was in a zone. The game was tougher than in Margaret Court's day, when she was considered a giant at 5'9", and her rivals were mostly 5'3 to 5'6. Serena, also was 5'9, but she was considerably shorter than Davenport, Sharapova, Azarenka, Venus, Safina, Ivanovic ,JAnkovic, etc etc....all of whom were 6 feet or more. Woz is 5'10. There were shorter players, like Henin Capriati, but Serena was below average in height compared to the other top players of her time.
I can switch that argument around too. Margaret had it tougher than Serena does. 1. birth control options were more limited. 2. Women today control their own finances and have more opportunities to earn their own money or invest their own money. They can get loans without a man to cosign. There isn't the same prejudice against women as athletes as there was back then. Serena does not have to seek anyone's permission to do this with her life.

Margaret had no access to a nutritionist, a sports psychologist, a weight trainer. There was no compu -tennis to provide analysis of Margaret's stroke production or service motion, analysis of patterns of play/ shot selection frequency of her opponent's sitting on a spread sheet.



Guess who diagnosed Margaret's injuries? Was it a sports medicine specialist? Was it a doctor at all? No, most likely was her coach. That was the man telling her when to ice, when to heat, when to rest, when to stretch that injury. If it was bad, then they saw a general practiioner who got an 'xray', not an MRI, but an x ray of the area. How long do you suppose it took to get that diagnosis? what options did they have to treat it? If you needed surgery, like Billie Jean on her knees, it was not laparoscopic and it did not heal in the same time frames they do today.

It's no wonder careers are longer now, especially if you have millions of dollars at your fingertips to extend your career, and mitigate the impact of aging and hard use on your body. .
 
As noted earlier, Connolly, Court and Graf are the unquestioned GOAT female tennis players. It is not now, nor will it ever be Evert, Navratilova or the woman who stands above them--Serena.
Why does Connolly, with such a short career, playing in an amateur era, rank above Evert and Navratilova, who dominated a professional, international tour, for decades? There are certainly arguments for Graf and Court, but Evert wonabout 400 more matches than Steffi, and won them at a higher percentage. She also won many more tournaments, and had Navratilova been stabbed, she would have dominated even more.......
 
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Why does Connolly, with such a short career, playing in an amateur era, rank above Evert and Navratilova, who dominated a professional, international tour, for decades? There are certainly arguments for Graf and Court, but Evert wonabout 400 more matches than Steffi, and won them at a higher percentage. She also won many more tournaments, and had Navratilova been stabbed, she would have dominated even more.......

If Navratilova did not emerge Evert would have retired earlier. She says so herself in many interviews. Most rank her behind Serena and Graf not only due to less dominance and less slam wins, but since prime to prime she would lose in a series of matches, virtually every expert agrees on that. The same is true vs Navratilova, proven by their actual existing rivalry, hence why most rank her behind her as well.

You seem to be ranking Seles super high based on nothing but what ifs and her shortened (by circumstances) peak. Which is fair if that is your perrogative for rankings. Well in that case Connolly would have to rank even higher you are trying to rank Seles for sure as her peak was far more dominant than Seles. She won all 9 slams she played 51-54. Also this was in the era 3 of the 4 slams were on grass, which hypothetically had Seles played in she maybe wins like 2 majors (both French Opens) at best. Like Seles she is a what if case with her peak terminated by an unforseen event at age 19. Unlike Seles she did not get the chance to return to tennis at all.
 
Suuurree. The players who won the Grand Slam are all on equal levels of consideration as those who were never great enough to win it (in comes padded careers, etc.). Yeah, no serious mind plays that game.
The fixation on the grand slam obscures way too much. Is Evert a worse player because she had not won a true Grand Slam? Should I elevate Court on that basis alone? Is the only aspect of Serena's career the # of slams she won. No, no and no. I can't say with absolute certainty that Serena is the greatest player ever, not when there are aspects of her career that are less great. It's much easier w/Djoko who hits so many of the various KPIs. On the womens side, it's even trickier and then if you factor in dubs, fuggedaboutit. I still lean towards Steffi and MN, Serena's right there as are Court and Evert, slightly behind. I don't feel as strong about Court given so many watered down AO wins. But they still count. I don't feel educated enough to comment on Connolly...well before I was born.
 
If Navratilova did not emerge Evert would have retired earlier. She says so herself in many interviews. Most rank her behind Serena and Graf not only due to less dominance and less slam wins, but since prime to prime she would lose in a series of matches, virtually every expert agrees on that. The same is true vs Navratilova, proven by their actual existing rivalry, hence why most rank her behind her as well.

You seem to be ranking Seles super high based on nothing but what ifs and her shortened (by circumstances) peak. Which is fair if that is your perrogative for rankings. Well in that case Connolly would have to rank even higher you are trying to rank Seles for sure as her peak was far more dominant than Seles. She won all 9 slams she played 51-54. Also this was in the era 3 of the 4 slams were on grass, which hypothetically had Seles played in she maybe wins like 2 majors (both French Opens) at best. Like Seles she is a what if case with her peak terminated by an unforseen event at age 19. Unlike Seles she did not get the chance to return to tennis at all.
Evert kind of had a second peak period in '84 to '86... a resurgence, of sorts. I thought she really elevated her game against MN in a big way. As I recall, Tracy was the one getting her to think about retiring (a deadly mini me of herself). MN ascended above her in the early 80's and how she found the wherewithal to reassess and change her fitness level, racquet and even her playing style was tremendous and easily overlooked. But, when Steffi came along, I think that was a bit much for her at that later career stage ('87 on). But even then, she played a few good ones against her.
 
If Navratilova did not emerge Evert would have retired earlier. She says so herself in many interviews. Most rank her behind Serena and Graf not only due to less dominance and less slam wins, but since prime to prime she would lose in a series of matches, virtually every expert agrees on that. The same is true vs Navratilova, proven by their actual existing rivalry, hence why most rank her behind her as well.

I've heard the same, yet some work overtime attempting to elevate Evert to some near or actual GOAT level, despite evidence (such as yours) which reach different conclusions.

You seem to be ranking Seles super high based on nothing but what ifs and her shortened (by circumstances) peak.

A peak which included her one and only trip to a Wimbledon final, where Graf utterly dominated Seles to the degree that it appeared Graf was instructing a junior. Again, this was Seles during her unquestioned peak, yet she failed in spectacular fashion in that Wimbledon final. There 's not a particle of evidence on which to base raking Seles so high. As you note, its nothing but "what ifs"--revisionist history, rather than considering Seles' real career in its totality. Further, since I'm fairly certain no one on this board has the ability to tap into alternate timelines, its borderline disrespectful for the effort Seles made to return to the sport after the attack, and accepting that, instead of playing alternate timelines / wish fulfillment games.
 
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