How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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Just out of interest, I have never known anyone refer to themselves as a "social-justice warrior." It seems entirely a pejorative term deployed by the right, and especially the far right, to criticize liberal and left positions without bothering to engage with them. I don't even think that either moderate or thoughtful conservatives use the term. It's basically an ad hominem, and so a logical fallacy that should be avoided by anyone engaged in serious discourse or who wants to persuade someone with whom they disagree.

There is a character in the TV show "One Day at a Time" who refers to herself as a social-justice warrior, so perhaps some young people do self-describe in that way. But I'm a professor and I have never heard a student self-describe as a social-justice warrior.
Here is a definition for you;

SJW
Abbreviation for Social Justice Warrior. A person who says its all about equality, but in reality, wants a certain group/groups to be more superior that their enemy, the white, straight, cisgender male.

They love being offended and find practically anything offensive, and think that any opinion that opposes their own is a hate crime. They also use "check your privilege" unironically, and would do anything in their power to take you down if you disagree with even the smallest thing that they believe in. Often believe there are over 100 genders and sexualities and would label themselves as several of them on their Tumblr pages even though doing so can contradict one another (i.e. Being binary yet non-binary, being pan yet lesbian, etc.) only to be a special snowflake. In addition to that, would use absurd pronouns (i.e. Xir, Ze, Zim, They, Them, etc.).

Take caution when encountering these whales, especially if you're white, straight, skinny, cis, not disabled, and/or a normal ass human being.
Person: I don't find transgenders attractive-

SJW: OH MY GOD, YOU'RE A TRANSPHOBIC CIS GENDERED, WHITE PRIVILEGE HAVING PIECE OF LIVING SHIIT, KYS!

Person: ....
 

Zhilady

Professional
As has become the case with most controversies, we have made it a choice between two extremes. Some say Serena did absolutely nothing wrong and is a hero for standing up to the chair umpire and calling him a thief.

The other side says takes joy in pointing out that the umpire acted within the rules and say that Serena deserved the consequences. There was absolutely nothing dubious about the chair's decision.

Clearly, the truth is in the middle of these extremes. Each warning against Serena was technically legitimate, and she should not have called the umpire a thief. On the other hand, it would have been best if the umpire had used a little discretion and not issued a game penalty. Thief is not such a vulgar term that he couldn't have chosen to withhold the penalty.

Serena was not blameless or heroic for yelling at the umpire, but that doesn't mean he made the best possible decision, either.
I wonder, if one of your colleagues at work demanded an apology from you, called you a liar and a thief, and told you that you wouldn't be in another room of his as long as you live, and he yelled this out in front of thousands of people in attendance and millions of people watching it on live television, would you just use your discretion and let it pass, despite knowing that you did nothing wrong? In almost any workplace, we would be considering a possible suspension. You get away easy in Tennis.

There are consequences for your actions, and there should be. I'd understand if Ramos had made poor decisions prior to Williams's outburst, but he did nothing wrong. The coach admitted to coaching. Williams did break her racquet. Williams deserved both those violations. And she deserved a third for berating the umpire for giving out two deserved violations.

But then again, Serena is a black woman with a daughter, so maybe Ramos should be given the electric chair.
 
I like this PMo guy.

Finally after 18 months of Trump & Co. corruption, constant lies and subsequent denials we get a guy that is busted and totally cops to it. And he throws Toni under the bus in the process ! :D

Mueller should subpoena PMo and find out what else he knows.
Why does Trump have to be brought up for everything? Living rent free.
 
You may find your head under the guillotine one day !!!

Maybe you accidently sneezed and a single molecule of water hit a women ...well then , it could be harassment
 
So you're saying there's nothing at all questionable about a game penalty at a crucial point in a grand slam final?
I agree rules need to be enforced more consistently . The top players get away very easily . Also the linesmen always decode calls favoring the top guys

But it doesn’t really matter to me that it was a major final . Serena clearly was ranting on and on and deserved what wasn’t going on

That racket abuse and coaching sometimes go unnoticed does not put Ramos at fault for what he did today
 
This was both a satisfying and terrible match to watch for me. Serena fully deserved the penalties she got, but the way the crowd treated Naomi (who, by the way, is effectively an American, she's been in the USA since age 3) was disgusting.


I'm happy, though, that Serena finally got what she's been deserving all these years.
 
That definition supports rather than challenging my claim that it's purely an ad hominem slur with no utility in reasoned or reasonable discourse.

Here is a definition for you;

SJW
Abbreviation for Social Justice Warrior. A person who says its all about equality, but in reality, wants a certain group/groups to be more superior that their enemy, the white, straight, cisgender male.

They love being offended and find practically anything offensive, and think that any opinion that opposes their own is a hate crime. They also use "check your privilege" unironically, and would do anything in their power to take you down if you disagree with even the smallest thing that they believe in. Often believe there are over 100 genders and sexualities and would label themselves as several of them on their Tumblr pages even though doing so can contradict one another (i.e. Being binary yet non-binary, being pan yet lesbian, etc.) only to be a special snowflake. In addition to that, would use absurd pronouns (i.e. Xir, Ze, Zim, They, Them, etc.).

Take caution when encountering these whales, especially if you're white, straight, skinny, cis, not disabled, and/or a normal ass human being.
Person: I don't find transgenders attractive-

SJW: OH MY GOD, YOU'RE A TRANSPHOBIC, CIS GENDERED, WHITE PRIVILEGE HAVING PIECE OF LIVING ****, KYS!

Person: ....
 

Bartelby

Talk Tennis Guru
Who moved Infowars to TT?

Here is a definition for you;

SJW
Abbreviation for Social Justice Warrior. A person who says its all about equality, but in reality, wants a certain group/groups to be more superior that their enemy, the white, straight, cisgender male.

They love being offended and find practically anything offensive, and think that any opinion that opposes their own is a hate crime. They also use "check your privilege" unironically, and would do anything in their power to take you down if you disagree with even the smallest thing that they believe in. Often believe there are over 100 genders and sexualities and would label themselves as several of them on their Tumblr pages even though doing so can contradict one another (i.e. Being binary yet non-binary, being pan yet lesbian, etc.) only to be a special snowflake. In addition to that, would use absurd pronouns (i.e. Xir, Ze, Zim, They, Them, etc.).

Take caution when encountering these whales, especially if you're white, straight, skinny, cis, not disabled, and/or a normal ass human being.
Person: I don't find transgenders attractive-

SJW: OH MY GOD, YOU'RE A TRANSPHOBIC, CIS GENDERED, WHITE PRIVILEGE HAVING PIECE OF LIVING ****, KYS!

Person: ....
 
Yup^
Smarter? Better?

Clearly you’ve forgotten the Grosjean - Nadal match where Nadal had the chair come down 2 straight points to check marks and correct calls (Nadal was right both times) Crowd made so much noise they couldn’t play for 7 minutes.

New Yorkers are bad but rubes compared to the French.
Truth. Not the best moment. They really have had a complex relationship avec le topspinmono!
 
Yup and also says he does it all the time and never got penalized ever. And this is a freaking slam final. Sorry. The ref injected himself into the match.
i agree the ref injected himself, thats why i said he arbitrarily enforced the rules.

but Vampire Pat did coach. and he comes across as an arrogant *****
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
I wonder, if one of your colleagues at work demanded an apology from you, called you a liar and a thief, and told you that you wouldn't be in another room of his as long as you live, and he yelled this out in front of thousands of people in attendance and millions of people watching it on live television, would you just use your discretion and let it pass, despite knowing that you did nothing wrong? In almost any workplace, we would be considering a possible suspension. You get away easy in Tennis.

There are consequences for your actions, and there should be. I'd understand if Ramos had made poor decisions prior to Williams's outburst, but he did nothing wrong. The coach admitted to coaching. Williams did break her racquet. Williams deserved both those violations. And she deserved a third for berating the umpire for giving out two deserved violations.

But then again, Serena is a black woman with a daughter, so maybe Ramos should be given the electric chair.
I would say that is a false analogy. Professional sports is not, in any sense, a traditional workplace. Every professional sport deals with disagreements with officials that are often heated. There's no expectation that everyone will behave as if they're in an office job.
 
This was both a satisfying and terrible match to watch for me. Serena fully deserved the penalties she got, but the way the crowd treated Naomi (who, by the way, is effectively an American, she's been in the USA since age 3) was disgusting.


I'm happy, though, that Serena finally got what she's been deserving all these years.
I don’t think Serena is a bad Person ???
 
Total classless act by Serena Williams. Wait.. this was not the 1st time? I missed the other 50 times. She was getting her butt handed to her and went crazy.. lost control... Was going to stuff a ball down the throat of a linesperson... oh wait... that was the other time... LOL. The world is always against her. Lets see... when is last time Roger acted like this?? Rafa?? THE ESPN ladies drink the USTA Koolaid... perfect. wow.. wow.. wow.

Worst part.. I am not even remotely surprised. sad.. sad.. sad..
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
I agree rules need to be enforced more consistently . The top players get away very easily . Also the linesmen always decode calls favoring the top guys

But it doesn’t really matter to me that it was a major final . Serena clearly was ranting on and on and deserved what wasn’t going on

That racket abuse and coaching sometimes go unnoticed does not put Ramos at fault for what he did today
Right. He's not at fault or a terrible umpire for today, but, given that the enforcement of these rules varies, it probably wasn't the best decision to make his stand in that way in this match. It goes back to the point of the thread: there's nuance to the situation.
 
Way to Osaka after a big drama scene by Serena you kept your poise and finished the match with class. Most other players would have caved but you played a great match and deserve all the credit and would have won the match even without the penalties. You gave Serena the mother of all shellacking.
Loved it.. Great post!!
 
She showed a decent amount of sportsmanship. It's difficult to lose in that stage, particularly in that fashion. But on the other hand, what was she going to do? Accept the crowd booing as if she wanted them to? It was Osaka's moment, and Williams allowed it to be, even though as the second set progressed Osaka took a sideline to Ramos and Williams.

Props to Williams for her comforting Osaka. Props to Osaka for doing her best and struggling through that.
 

Nacho

Professional
Trying to put this whole thing in perspective. I have searched high and low on statistics on code violations for coaching, or the amount of violations given in the mens game verses womens, and can't find anything. Can't even find information just on the US Open. I would then say that because of this we can't assume this was sexist, or one sided until we have a better view of it overall. And Serena stating it was, really appears to be over reaction in an emotional moment more then anything else. I felt terrible for her, but felt even more terrible for Osaka. Osaka played amazing, and would have won regardless. If anything we (the fans) got robbed of a chance to see if Serena could make a comeback. I have always hated having refs be a factor in big events,

My takes on it overall:
-Seems bizarre that Ramos decided to call a coaching violation in the finals of the US Open. As a fan, I can't say I have ever seen this called. The tournament had a lot of complaints about coaching (Murray on Verdasco, Kyrogios etc...), so maybe thats what drove some sensitivity to this issue. Seems like something inconsistently called, and given that her coach was other side of the court and back of the box not sure what exactly he did that was even that helpful to be called out on. I am guessing the tournament got some pressure to call these things out from some griping players
-Her reaction initially was fine, but she kept going at him and this was unnecessary. I have seen a lot of players do this sort of thing, and almost every time it doesn't end well. Not sure I have seen men treated differently and was bothered this was brought up so much even by the ESPN announcers. I see lots of men get fined, or disqualified. Didn't this happen to Mcenroe in the Australian one year? Again I need some stats to make a judgement
-Break a racquet in the middle of the court, your going to get a violation. This is consistent, so no issue there. Did she know the coaching call out was a violation, clearly not. But she's an experienced player really not much of an excuse to not know the rules
-And she kept chipping away, Ramos clearly had enough. Its the finals, he probably could have asked her to tone it back before getting another warning, but chose to go right to a 3rd violation. Thats his prerogative. He's been around awhile, not sure if that reaction is his M.O. but I would think players might know this about the different refs before continuing on tirades

So I can't say I see the "women's rights" angle on this which Serena kept bringing up. It's sport, a women won, and got a 3.2 million dollar check in the grand slam that pays equally both sides of the draw. I am sure the shirt changing issue earlier in the tournament sparked this reaction by Serena, I hope she gets some perspective and turns this approach around. But if anyone has stats on these code calls I would love to see the links. Can't wait to see how it pans out in the social media universe
 
Men have pointed at the umpire, called for their removal, and called them an abortion and did not get a warning. See Connors Krickstein US open match.
Funny how the pretty much every example people point out are from like, 25 years ago. Have men done similar things and not been warned before, yes. Have women done similar things before and not been warned, yes.
 
Agreed. Serena clearly overreacted to the coaching call, shouldn't have broken her racquet, and was a bit rude to the umpire. He also overreacted to her rudeness and could have shown discretion. Those saying that he just followed the rules should recognize a distinction between the official rules and the de facto rules. Yes, he followed the official rules. But the de facto rules are that umpires can exercise discretion. (Do those thinking the umpire did well because he followed the rules also think that everyone who has ever gone one mile an hour over the speed limit should get a ticket?)
Everyone except trolls and haters would be siding with Serena if it was a "one mile an hour over the speed limit", and by the way where I live you get a fine if you go 10%+ over the speed limit.

Ramos could exercise discretion and not give her the second warning for breaking a racket, but IMO the third warning and game penalty should be the de facto rule there after all that went on.
 
Her coach admitted on live TV that he coached. Carlos Ramos picked it up so what was he supposed to do according to you?

Some players get away with it because the umpire doesn't notice it. Today he did.

So you're actually mad that Serena didn't get away with cheating while others did. How pathetic is that?
He absolutely admitted it. But all coaches coach. Most of them are so involved they couldn’t stop if their lives depended on it. In an open final you don’t give a penalty for that.
 
What?

the issue is whether what she said in her chair on a changeover should have resulted in a code violation. I say no, and it would not have happened had it been Federer.

In other words, had Federer received coaching, then smashed a racket, and then said what Serena said, is there anybody here who seriously believes he would have received that third code violation at the end of a set in the championship match?

It is not a Level Playing Field and as someone said earlier, perhaps the solution is to tighten up on all players. But as things stand, there is a clear disparity in how female players are treated.
True, but nevertheless Serena is to blame for how this ended. Her behavior was not good for the sport.
 
She acts like she is the first mother to play professional sports. She deserved the penalty and she has a history of being abusive. As many have stated she could of been yelling at the umpire because she knew Osaka was playing great as she is a young kid. It could of thrown Osaka off her game I bet she never saw anyone get so nuts on a court. I doubt Venus would of acted like that
 
That definition supports rather than challenging my claim that it's purely an ad hominem slur with no utility in reasoned or reasonable discourse.
Look you can deny it but cultural marxism is a very real thing.

Even Johny Mac suffered an absurd demonization campaign after daring to say Serena would not be able to compete with males.
This what radical feminists aka sjws do, they believe genders are literally equal.
If you dont see a flawed reasoning there well chances are youre a sjw yourself.
 
Whatever you think of Serena and Naomi (and I adore Naomi), there is no doubt in my mind that the chair acted improperly.

I think there was gender bias at work. The first coaching violation? Deserved. The second violation? Deserved.

But I cannot begin to count the number of times men have sat in their chairs on changeovers and had heated discussions with umpires, and nothing whatever happens. But when it is Serena, it is a game penalty in the final. Insane. Her words were actually civil -- saying she deserved an apology, no profanity, no threats.

Need more proof?

In this same tournament, we had a chair umpire come out of his chair to basically coach Kirios in front of God and everyone. The proper response would have been to enforce the code of conduct, but no. Ump goes easy on the man, and USTA backs up the umpire.

By that standard, Ramos should have come out of his chair and talked to Serena, calm her nerves, tell her he wants to help her. Nope -- game penalty (when the tirade was over and he could have let it go) to put Serena's opponent a game away from the championship.

Congratulations to Naomi, but what happened today was rooted in disparate treatment and sexism.

I think if we go 'by the book' than Ramos is completely in the right. The thing is that umpires, Ramos included, are reluctant to go 'by the book' when men have said much worse. I mean, they can't even assign a point/game penalty for playing too slowly. So two conclusions here: 1) Serena deserved the code violation that she was given and 2) Several male players have deserved the code violations that they weren't given for similar or worse behavior.
 
He absolutely admitted it. But all coaches coach. Most of them are so involved they couldn’t stop if their lives depended on it. In an open final you don’t give a penalty for that.
She received a warning for coaching, not a penalty.

1) warning for coaching
2) point penalty for racquet abuse
3) game penalty after going ballistic on the umpire, insulting him on consecutive changeovers
 
Ramos did not accuse Serena of cheating, as she repeatedly accused him of doing; he gave the warning based on the gestures Patrick M made toward her (and Patrick admitted that he coached/cheated in his post match interview). So Serena's on going rant was based more on her ego and apparent sense of being entitled (she does call herself "Queen" after all) to smash her racket and berate Ramos quite viciously ("Apologize to me right now!").

Serena got a code violation for Patrick's coaching. So what. Players get code violations regularly for all manner seemingly minor incidents (like turning your shirt over because it's on inside-out). They play on. They keep their composure. They don't take it as a personal insult, then smash their racket and verbally assault the umpire.
 
Well, technically, the umpire wasn't wrong, as showing leniency and acting in favor of a player as to not apply the correct penalty is not actually fair towards the other player, the one who respects the rules and doesn't try to force them in their favor all the time.

The umpire has to act according to the rules and if he did, then he was not actually wrong. That's like saying a policeman who gives a speeding ticket to somebody was wrong because he could've just warned that person.

Serena and her manager probably think they are the best thing since sliced bread when it comes to women tennis. 95% of the time they get away with bending the rules because the officials show too much leniency and don't apply all the rules properly. On occasions though, players like Serena get caught and they make a big drama out of it. The goal is that if it will happen again, officials will prefer to avoid the scandal and be softer, more 'understanding'.
oh please :rolleyes:

law and order/conservative types always cite 'the rules, the rules'.

point is, rules are always applied with discretion!

and those used to being in power (men, white men in particular, etc) have not been treated the same historically.

in this case, Ramos didn't use his discretion in the best way.

Serena did overreact (but no more so than plenty of guys have), but it's not because she is a diva, its because she takes her integrity so seriously and personally.

anyway, this incident has shown a light on issues that we still need to reconcile as a society.
 

Bartelby

Talk Tennis Guru
You don't even know what cultural marxism is, I suspect, so give your definition Professor?

Look you can deny it but cultural marxism is a very real thing.

Even Johny Mac suffered an absurd demonization campaign after daring to say Serena would not be able to compete with males.
This what radical feminists aka sjws do, they believe genders are literally equal.
If you dont see a flawed reasoning there well chances are youre a sjw yourself.
 
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