How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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Everyone except trolls and haters would be siding with Serena if it was a "one mile an hour over the speed limit", and by the way where I live you get a fine if you go 10%+ over the speed limit.

Ramos could exercise discretion and not give her the second warning for breaking a racket, but IMO the third warning and game penalty should be the de facto rule there after all that went on.
Fair enough. Note that what I said wasn't a defense of Serena but a critique of some of the criticism against her. It's one thing to say as you did that what she did was not within the realm in which an umpire should use discretion. It's another to act as though umpires should never exercise discretion - in which case the analogy to speed limits applies. 10% isn't 1 MPH!

For what it's worth, I would say that the racket was the one in which she merited a warning, not the continued arguing! But there you go.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
As has become the case with most controversies, we have made it a choice between two extremes. Some say Serena did absolutely nothing wrong and is a hero for standing up to the chair umpire and calling him a thief.

The other side says takes joy in pointing out that the umpire acted within the rules and say that Serena deserved the consequences. There was absolutely nothing dubious about the chair's decision.

Clearly, the truth is in the middle of these extremes. Each warning against Serena was technically legitimate, and she should not have called the umpire a thief. On the other hand, it would have been best if the umpire had used a little discretion and not issued a game penalty. Thief is not such a vulgar term that he couldn't have chosen to withhold the penalty.

Serena was not blameless or heroic for yelling at the umpire, but that doesn't mean he made the best possible decision, either.
should Carlos Ramos never umpire Serena's match again ?
 

insideguy

Legend
Trying to put this whole thing in perspective. I have searched high and low on statistics on code violations for coaching, or the amount of violations given in the mens game verses womens, and can't find anything. Can't even find information just on the US Open. I would then say that because of this we can't assume this was sexist, or one sided until we have a better view of it overall. And Serena stating it was, really appears to be over reaction in an emotional moment more then anything else. I felt terrible for her, but felt even more terrible for Osaka. Osaka played amazing, and would have won regardless. If anything we (the fans) got robbed of a chance to see if Serena could make a comeback. I have always hated having refs be a factor in big events,

My takes on it overall:
-Seems bizarre that Ramos decided to call a coaching violation in the finals of the US Open. As a fan, I can't say I have ever seen this called. The tournament had a lot of complaints about coaching (Murray on Verdasco, Kyrogios etc...), so maybe thats what drove some sensitivity to this issue. Seems like something inconsistently called, and given that her coach was other side of the court and back of the box not sure what exactly he did that was even that helpful to be called out on. I am guessing the tournament got some pressure to call these things out from some griping players
-Her reaction initially was fine, but she kept going at him and this was unnecessary. I have seen a lot of players do this sort of thing, and almost every time it doesn't end well. Not sure I have seen men treated differently and was bothered this was brought up so much even by the ESPN announcers. I see lots of men get fined, or disqualified. Didn't this happen to Mcenroe in the Australian one year? Again I need some stats to make a judgement
-Break a racquet in the middle of the court, your going to get a violation. This is consistent, so no issue there. Did she know the coaching call out was a violation, clearly not. But she's an experienced player really not much of an excuse to not know the rules
-And she kept chipping away, Ramos clearly had enough. Its the finals, he probably could have asked her to tone it back before getting another warning, but chose to go right to a 3rd violation. Thats his prerogative. He's been around awhile, not sure if that reaction is his M.O. but I would think players might know this about the different refs before continuing on tirades

So I can't say I see the "women's rights" angle on this which Serena kept bringing up. It's sport, a women won, and got a 3.2 million dollar check in the grand slam that pays equally both sides of the draw. I am sure the shirt changing issue earlier in the tournament sparked this reaction by Serena, I hope she gets some perspective and turns this approach around. But if anyone has stats on these code calls I would love to see the links. Can't wait to see how it pans out in the social media universe
I have said this before but tennis sets itself up for this nonsense. If the coach is freaking coaching kick him out. Or don't have the coach down there at all. So then a ref can get involved like a god dam wrestling match.
 

FD3S

Hall of Fame
He absolutely admitted it. But all coaches coach. Most of them are so involved they couldn’t stop if their lives depended on it. In an open final you don’t give a penalty for that.
If it's seen, then yeah, you absolutely do, warning or penalty or whatever the appropriate consequence is at that stage.

The umpires letting it slide - if they actually are as opposed to legitimately not seeing it - aren't doing the sport any great favor. Coaching should end when the players are on court; let's see if the all the prep time and practice pay off under fire. If not? Too bad, back to the drawing board after the match. If they want to try and coach from the stands anyway, fine, but both coach and player they should be ready for what comes if they get nailed.
 

LaZeR

Professional
... the issue is whether what she said in her chair on a changeover should have resulted in a code violation. I say no, ...
You think that within a matter of a few minutes Serena's abusiveness, bullying, and defamation, for the THIRD TIME, should NOT have resulted in a code violation... YA OK THEN!! lol

had Federer received coaching, then smashed a racket, and then said what Serena said, is there anybody here who seriously believes he would have received that third code violation at the end of a set in the championship match?
Let alone Federer, NO OTHER PLAYER would be SO STUPID nor sink SO LOW... similar to the examples and demonstrations Serena so disgracefully exhibited today. They would CONTROL themselves after the FIRST WARNING.

It is not a Level Playing Field and as someone said earlier, perhaps the solution is to tighten up on all players. But as things stand, there is a clear disparity in how female players are treated.
This deserves nothing but a LOL :confused:
 

Eye Test

Rookie
Another great definition i found,

An SJW (social justice warrior) is a person who adheres to neo-Marxism. Their ideology can be summed up as a mix of Nazism and Communism, where they advocate for complete state control, abolishment of capitalism, and equality of outcome (Communism) as well as blaming every societal ill on successful demographics which they deem evil and "privileged" (Nazism). SJWs hate males, Europeans, east Asian (men), heterosexuals, and Jews (among others). They believe that these demographics should be forced to serve less successful demographics (such as blacks, muslims, and females), who they claim are oppressed.

Subsets of this group include feminism (a female supremacist group centered around hating men, who they believe to be oppressing them) and "black lives matter" (a black supremacist ground centered around hating white people, who they believe to be oppressing them).
 

SavvyStringer

Professional
She received a warning for coaching, not a penalty.

1) warning for coaching,
2) point penalty for racquet abuse
3) game penalty after going ballistic on the umpire, insulting him on consecutive changeovers
Accurate. For the first two. The last one, the official has to know his role. He absolutely altered the course of the match with the warning for coaching. She didn’t drop any four letter words on him and still got the verbal abuse penalty. That’s weak.
 

CdnUmp

New User
Everyone except trolls and haters would be siding with Serena if it was a "one mile an hour over the speed limit", and by the way where I live you get a fine if you go 10%+ over the speed limit.

Ramos could exercise discretion and not give her the second warning for breaking a racket, but IMO the third warning and game penalty should be the de facto rule there after all that went on.
The discretion could have been for the coaching. The racket is clearly visible and the comments to him were clearly picked up by mics. He had no choice in either of those two matters. Bottom line, she reacted to a warning the same way juniors react to getting hooked - she let it get in her head and she couldn't just forget about it and move on.
 
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Simon_the_furry

Hall of Fame
I never understood why she gets so much hate. There have been hate threads about her where I couldn't agree with the OPs. Not on this occasion!

She talks and behaves like she leads the entire army of fans who only come to see and cheer for her. I am not sure I have seen a more arrogant player than her in tennis.
I've been saying it for years. She is NOT a nice person.
 

insideguy

Legend
I would say that is a false analogy. Professional sports is not, in any sense, a traditional workplace. Every professional sport deals with disagreements with officials that are often heated. There's no expectation that everyone will behave as if they're in an office job.
Yea I mean hockey players beat the crap out of each other with what is basically a crime on the streets lol.
 

tata

Hall of Fame
Her inability to accept things were not going her way sealed her fate. The same way when my wife cries and blames me/someone for making her cry and I say: I didn't make you cry, you made yourself cry.
Every time something goes wrong we can choose to react or respond. Two very different things.
 

sovertennis

Semi-Pro
She got her ass kicked 2-6 in a little over a half hour in the first set. Losing a point, after losing her frigging mind, did not cost her the match. Her lack of self-control and being thoroughly outplayed is why she LOST. Nothing was stolen from her. She is a disgrace. What she and the scum of the USTA did to that poor girl is shameful. The entitled, demanding, victim attitude is typical of Serena. And, shame on Everett for having her nose up Serena's rear end and playing the "sexist" card.
Agreed entirely. I've long suspected the Chrissy E is on Serena's payroll as chief apologist and cheerleader.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Nadal doing the exact same thing with 2 prior violations berates Bernardes and says that he will never coach one of his matches again.

Doesn't receive a game penalty or even a penalty taken away from him
Ramos is noted to have a quicker trigger when it comes to warnings. Bringing up a different umpire here is disingenuous at best and nonsense at worst.
 

MasterZeb

Hall of Fame
He absolutely admitted it. But all coaches coach. Most of them are so involved they couldn’t stop if their lives depended on it. In an open final you don’t give a penalty for that.
Why don’t you? Just cause other coaches do it doesn’t mean it’s somehow suddenly right. Rules are rules. And if you get caught, I’m sorry but you have nothing you can say to defend yourself. This isn’t Carlos’ fault. He did a great job out there. It’s his other umpire colleagues that are being inconsistent and not enforcing the rules and thus causing confusion and controversy in these kinds of situations
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Accurate. For the first two. The last one, the official has to know his role. He absolutely altered the course of the match with the warning for coaching. She didn’t drop any four letter words on him and still got the verbal abuse penalty. That’s weak.
Is Serena 5 years old and doesn't realize then when you receive 2 warnings you try to keep it clean so that you don't get bigger repercussions for your actions?

She called him a thief and a sexist and literally trashed him on every changeover for minutes.

Altered the course of the match? Serena received a game penalty when Osaka was 6-2 4-3 (and a break) up. I was actually concerned that the moment was gonna get to Osaka.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
I've always felt like it should be held away from New York. Maybe because I'm a flyover guy but I've never associated NYC as a place that is real America.
NYC is definitely not part of real America. You need to drive 100 miles north west of NYC to find it.
 

Simon_the_furry

Hall of Fame
Can everyone stop being so mean, the woman was on her death bed fighting for life only 12 shorts month ago and now in the FINAL of a Grand Slam. Quite incredible really.
I don't care. That doesn't excuse her actions, and the fact that she played the victim when Naomi was the real victim in all of this is absolutely disgusting. This girl is trying to win a slam in a tour that has been dominated by Serena for decades. Serena has 23 of them. Before tonight, Naomi didn't even have one.


Absolutely disgusting. Hours later and I'm still fuming.
 
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Soianka

Hall of Fame
Nope. Umpire never said she was cheating. He agreed with her. Warning was because of coaching. She could have let it go at that. I loved it in the press conference when she started describing the situation and said that she and the MPower we’re on the same page. Then she just stop talking. I wanted to say go ahead Serena, tell us the rest. You could not let it go. You be ready at him for calling you a cheater and he never did that. Three code violations for the same thing done. Rules are rules. She was getting beat and having a temper tantrum. Seen it before.
She let it go until she got a point penalty. Based on her after match interview, it seemed that she thought they were on the same page and that he agreed she wasn't cheating. Therefore, the earlier warning didn't count. That's why she was surprised to get a point penalty after the racquet smash.

Ramos inflamed the situation whereas he could have done his job and kept the match on track so that we'd be talking about the tennis and not him. Apparently, that's the sort of umpire he is and it's unfortunate.

Serena needs to control her emotions better. Because she had no chance at all in that match against an on-fire Naomi, plus playing against herself and Ramos. Just play Naomi and keep your **** together.

It was a loss for tennis fans today because Naomi is the real deal and it would have been nice to see her play Serena when Serena was playing well. And the trophy ceremony would have been nice to see if it was a passing of the torch to a player that Serena inspired.

Instead it was a sad affair all around. Most of the blame goes to Ramos because it is precisely his job to keep the focus on the tennis. Instead he decided to involve himself in the match with bad judgment calls.
 

jukka1970

Professional
And that for me is where the real issue lies is in the third call. I think that the referee and supervisor review everything and decide if this was clearly verbal abuse, which I honestly feel it was not, not in the grand scheme of things.

The issue is that there are to many inconsistencies when it comes to calls. I'm not going to say that Serena would have won. I think Osaka would have still beat her. But I think we can at least agree that it did affect the match
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
Right. He's not at fault or a terrible umpire for today, but, given that the enforcement of these rules varies, it probably wasn't the best decision to make his stand in that way in this match. It goes back to the point of the thread: there's nuance to the situation.
No, you have to right the wrongs at some time .

Next time top players know they will not go Scot free just because it is a final

And Serena has received a point penalty resulting in match default earlier In a SF. It is not like this was the first time for her
 

Soianka

Hall of Fame
oh please :rolleyes:

law and order/conservative types always cite 'the rules, the rules'.

point is, rules are always applied with discretion!

and those used to being in power (men, white men in particular, etc) have not been treated the same historically.

in this case, Ramos didn't use his discretion in the best way.

Serena did overreact (but no more so than plenty of guys have), but it's not because she is a diva, its because she takes her integrity so seriously and personally.

anyway, this incident has shown a light on issues that we still need to reconcile as a society.
Yes, and this is a player who has been cheated by officials before in this very tournament. So of course she's suspicious and sensitive about it.

Ramos probably achieved what his goal was today and the people on this board celebrating him are doing so because of their insane hatred for Serena Williams.

The people who actually love tennis are sad because tennis got lost in the drama today.
 
Look you can deny it but cultural marxism is a very real thing.

Even Johny Mac suffered an absurd demonization campaign after daring to say Serena would not be able to compete with males.
This what radical feminists aka sjws do, they believe genders are literally equal.
If you dont see a flawed reasoning there well chances are youre a sjw yourself.
It's one thing to say that there are real criticisms to be made of people who hold positions similar to the ones you have in mind. It's another to insist on advancing those critiques using pejorative slogans that demonize interlocutors, rather than trying to engage in real conversation.

By the way, rather few radical feminists believe that sexual dimorphism isn't real (that's one reason there is a heated debate going on right now between many radical feminists and trans-gender theorists and activists). They believe that gender roles are mostly social constructions imposed on top of sexual dimorphism but that doesn't mean they are committed to believing that Serena could compete with male players. If they demonized McEnroe, it was because what he said was irrelevant to the moral status of female tennis players, not because they didn't believe that what he said was descriptively true.
 

justasport

Professional
The chair umpire did his job perfectly! Serena acted like a child out there today and she should feel embarrassed by her actions! The chair umpire owes Serena NO apology at all!! In fact it's Serena who owes Naomi Osaka an apology for ruining her moment today! Excuse my French, but Naomi Osaka kicked Serena's ass out there today and totally deserves her first slam!! She also became the first male or female player in Japan to win a slam!! It was great to witness history today, but it wasn't great to watch Serena play the fool today!!
 

Man of steel

Hall of Fame
Ramos is noted to have a quicker trigger when it comes to warnings. Bringing up a different umpire here is disingenuous at best and nonsense at worst.
Quicker trigger. You don't say. This guy is too sensitive. Call him anything and he'll probably call the police on you.

 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
I need to do a print screen of the General discussion forum, so many hate threads about Serena. It's like a wet fantasy, I've been waiting for this moment for all my life.
 

Djokodal Fan

Hall of Fame
He performed his job so poorly that he wasn't allowed at the trophy ceremony, yet y'all are applauding him. Remarkable.
This is to not allow further booing and humiliation for a job that was correctly done. Usta clearly does not want to cause further issues. How conveniently you can twist a story, can't you?
 

justasport

Professional
And that for me is where the real issue lies is in the third call. I think that the referee and supervisor review everything and decide if this was clearly verbal abuse, which I honestly feel it was not, not in the grand scheme of things.

The issue is that there are to many inconsistencies when it comes to calls. I'm not going to say that Serena would have won. I think Osaka would have still beat her. But I think we can at least agree that it did affect the match
Serena was verbally abusing that referee all day!! She's lucky he didn't kick her ass off the court!!
 

jaggy

Talk Tennis Guru
In late August early September i would look to hold it in the north west or rockies. Bay area, Seattle, Portland, Denver all would be great spots.

Someone build it!
 

Defcon

Hall of Fame
Why are people surprised? She's always been rude to other players, racist even, and lacking class. This is a person who threatened an innocent lineswomen who makes 1/100000th of what she does with death, and she got a joke of a punishment.

I'm glad USTA had the balls to enforce the rules.

What was the commentary like, I'm sure Pam, Chris etc who are rabid Serena fans and always defend her and insult other players, were throwing fits?
 

Rhino

Legend
People are saying "oh good on her for standing up for herself" but she lacked any kind of dignity. She acted like very young kids act when things don't go their way, she was yelling and crying and saying "it's not fair", calling the umpire names and basically having a hissy fit. It's really embarrassing. She should own her own behavior but instead she somehow uses the sexism card!!?
 
No, you have to right the wrongs at some time .

Next time top players know they will not go Scot free just because it is a final

And Serena has received a point penalty resulting in match default earlier In a SF. It is not like this was the first time for her
Your first two sentences would be true if all players knew that every umpire would officiate in the exact same way, but players do not know that, and so they are not true. For example, you can be pretty confident that umpires will continue not to dock Nadal serves for taking too long between points.
 
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