How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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markwillplay

Hall of Fame
No he did not. All she had to do was move on.She had her say about cheating he agreed with her and they could have moved on. He had no reason to apologize to her for calling her Coach out for coaching which he admitted to doing. Shut your hole
 

SavvyStringer

Professional
Clearly you’re right and I’m wrong. You probably also call a holding penalty on every college and pro football snap and a travel on every dunk in the nba. Some rules matter more than others. Officials need to know their place. Osaka was pummeling her. It was apparent to everyone watching Osaka was on fire and Serena didn’t have it today. All the penalties and the arguing did was detract from Osaka’s moment.
 
Nonsense. NY is in America. It's been heah for yeeeaz. So is Louisiana, even though people think it ain't. Same with SF. Berkeley. Texas. The flyova states. All America. Big, diverse, scary country. United States. Not divided. Not polarized. Not separatist.

You know what is not American? To call a major part of America unAmerican. Why? Because they disagree with your politics? They have a strange accent? Too many damn forriners? They took yer jaabz?

NY is the hometown of the American dream to a LOT of people over the past few generations.

Dissent is patriotic.
NY is America.
Yeah, some social justice warriors need to gain perspective.
But some of you might need to remember some history.
 

Soianka

Hall of Fame
As has become the case with most controversies, we have made it a choice between two extremes. Some say Serena did absolutely nothing wrong and is a hero for standing up to the chair umpire and calling him a thief.

The other side says takes joy in pointing out that the umpire acted within the rules and say that Serena deserved the consequences. There was absolutely nothing dubious about the chair's decision.

Clearly, the truth is in the middle of these extremes. Each warning against Serena was technically legitimate, and she should not have called the umpire a thief. On the other hand, it would have been best if the umpire had used a little discretion and not issued a game penalty. Thief is not such a vulgar term that he couldn't have chosen to withhold the penalty.

Serena was not blameless or heroic for yelling at the umpire, but that doesn't mean he made the best possible decision, either.
I don't think anyone is defending Serena calling the umpire a thief.

But your point is a good one.
 

merwy

Legend
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the hand gesture was not enough to warrant a coaching violation. Maybe if he was displaying suspicious gestures structurally over the course of the match, a coaching violation is definitely necessary. But here? Just a small, "come on" gesture. (or whatever he meant by it.. come forward? Dunno.)That's nothing. Has as much significance as a fist pump.
 

deaner2211

Semi-Pro
Patrick was attempting to coach Serena, probably deserved a warning. Patrick was wrong.

Serena over-reacted and breaking her racket was beneath her as was her temper tantrum after she received the penalty. Serena was wrong.

The umpire went over-the-top with the game penalty because Serena called him a thief. If you're that thin-skinned you have no right to be an umpire and much worse is said to umpires every day without any repercussions. Umpire was wrong.

Serena calling this sexism, is harmful to women. It minimizes what "sexism" actually is. There were two women on that court and for Serena to claim "sexism" is illogical and stupid. Serena was wrong.

The US Open fans that booed Osaka are idiots. Osaka played a brilliant game, she is a big part of the future of Women's tennis and she deserved cheers and a standing ovation. US Open fans were wrong.
I agree with you about everything except of the fans part. They didnt boo Osaka their boos were directed at the Umpire, the USTA president, and The USO management...not Osaka.
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
Your first two sentences would be true if all players knew that every umpire would officiate in the exact same way, but players do not know that, and so they are not true. For example, you can be pretty confident that umpires will continue not to dock Nadal serves for taking too long between points.
Players need to know rules need to be followed

Just because You didn’t get a Speedibg ticket yesterday does not mean you can’t get one today
 

CdnUmp

New User
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the hand gesture was not enough to warrant a coaching violation. Maybe if he was displaying suspicious gestures structurally over the course of the match, a coaching violation is definitely necessary. But here? Just a small, "come on" gesture. (or whatever he meant by it.. come forward? Dunno.)That's nothing. Has as much significance as a fist pump.
And usually, in that case, the chair will tell the player on a changeover and he sees some ambiguous gestures from the player's box and if he suspects that it's coaching he'll have to call it. Serena's coach is right in that coaching on some level happens pretty much in every match. For it to be called it usually has to be blatant or ongoing despite warnings.
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
No he did not. All she had to do was move on.She had her say about cheating he agreed with her and they could have moved on. He had no reason to apologize to her for calling her Coach out for coaching which he admitted to doing. Shut your hole
Is there anyone specifically that this weak little rant is directed at or are you just sitting on your porch in your underwear shaking your fist at the sky?
 

Defcon

Hall of Fame
And didn't the William sisters succesfully ban another empire from their matches (at one of the Masters I think) because he dared to call against them. Nadal has done this too.

This entitled arrogant players need to be taught a lesson. Anyone who dares to defend Serena for her behavior is so wrong. She's arrogant and thinks she should get special treatment - does she not realize both players are female, only an idiot would resort to the 'sexism' excuse.
 

Tennisgods

Hall of Fame
As has become the case with most controversies, we have made it a choice between two extremes. Some say Serena did absolutely nothing wrong and is a hero for standing up to the chair umpire and calling him a thief.

The other side says takes joy in pointing out that the umpire acted within the rules and say that Serena deserved the consequences. There was absolutely nothing dubious about the chair's decision.

Clearly, the truth is in the middle of these extremes. Each warning against Serena was technically legitimate, and she should not have called the umpire a thief. On the other hand, it would have been best if the umpire had used a little discretion and not issued a game penalty. Thief is not such a vulgar term that he couldn't have chosen to withhold the penalty.

Serena was not blameless or heroic for yelling at the umpire, but that doesn't mean he made the best possible decision, either.
Whatever. What’s beyond debate is her disgusting behaviour. I’ve heard every excuse in the book for her vile rants, but we need to be clear. Nothing that happens on a tennis court justifies haranguing the umpire like that. Nothing.

It would be interesting to get the umpires view on what happened. For me, it wasn’t the thief comment that was the issue, more the fact that she was in the umpires face with no let up for about a minute. I would have used any code of conduct I could to penalise her. WTF gives her the right.
 

sovertennis

Semi-Pro
he said "I am an honest person and I was coaching" on the TV broadcast. Did you miss when they interviewed him? He 100% admitted to coaching. Serena also 100% broke her racket and 100% berate umpire and call umpire a "thief". All 3 violations were valid and Serena was only angry because Naomi was handing her butt to her.
Yes, then he said that Sasha B had been coaching Naomi, and every other coach does it too. Self apologist excuse.

I don't envy his after match discussion with Serena.
 

justasport

Professional
As has become the case with most controversies, we have made it a choice between two extremes. Some say Serena did absolutely nothing wrong and is a hero for standing up to the chair umpire and calling him a thief.

The other side says takes joy in pointing out that the umpire acted within the rules and say that Serena deserved the consequences. There was absolutely nothing dubious about the chair's decision.

Clearly, the truth is in the middle of these extremes. Each warning against Serena was technically legitimate, and she should not have called the umpire a thief. On the other hand, it would have been best if the umpire had used a little discretion and not issued a game penalty. Thief is not such a vulgar term that he couldn't have chosen to withhold the penalty.

Serena was not blameless or heroic for yelling at the umpire, but that doesn't mean he made the best possible decision, either.
I disagree. She's lucky he didn't kick her ass off the court!! AWFUL behavior from Serena!!!!
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the hand gesture was not enough to warrant a coaching violation. Maybe if he was displaying suspicious gestures structurally over the course of the match, a coaching violation is definitely necessary. But here? Just a small, "come on" gesture. (or whatever he meant by it.. come forward? Dunno.)That's nothing. Has as much significance as a fist pump.
Did you watch Patrick ? With both hands he was asking her to move forward
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
As has become the case with most controversies, we have made it a choice between two extremes. Some say Serena did absolutely nothing wrong and is a hero for standing up to the chair umpire and calling him a thief.

The other side says takes joy in pointing out that the umpire acted within the rules and say that Serena deserved the consequences. There was absolutely nothing dubious about the chair's decision.

Clearly, the truth is in the middle of these extremes. Each warning against Serena was technically legitimate, and she should not have called the umpire a thief. On the other hand, it would have been best if the umpire had used a little discretion and not issued a game penalty. Thief is not such a vulgar term that he couldn't have chosen to withhold the penalty.

Serena was not blameless or heroic for yelling at the umpire, but that doesn't mean he made the best possible decision, either.
He did not issue a game penalty just for thief. He issued a code violation because of Serena repeatedly mouthing off at him on changeovers, thief was just one thing she said. That code violation per the rules led to the game penalty. Either argue that umpires should ease off when issuing subsequent violations, or that he shouldn't have issued a violation for Serena repeatedly insulting him/mouthing off, not on one occasion, but multiple. Neither of those two arguments has much, if any, weight. The chair ump isn't really in the wrong here and you have to really build some bridges to think he is.
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
I agree with you about everything except of the fans part. They didnt boo Osaka their boos were directed at the Umpire, the USTA president, and The USO management...not Osaka.
I will totally accept that. I turned off the TV when the match was over because I was a little sick at everything I just saw. I was basing the booing comments on what the posters here were saying, including one dude who was actually there and "reporting live".
 

FD3S

Hall of Fame
Why are people surprised? She's always been rude to other players, racist even, and lacking class. This is a person who threatened an innocent lineswomen who makes 1/100000th of what she does with death, and she got a joke of a punishment.

I'm glad USTA had the balls to enforce the rules.

What was the commentary like, I'm sure Pam, Chris etc who are rabid Serena fans and always defend her and insult other players, were throwing fits?
I can't recall them during the presentation, but in the immediate aftermath both Fowler and Evert were taking great, great pains to point out how well Osaka played during the match and how what happened shouldn't overshadow her tournament; honestly, it sounded like they genuinely meant every word. Surprisingly Evert of all people seemed more than okay with the first coaching violation; when Shriver was saying that she wouldn't have penalized her, Chrissie was very adamant on how she did think that there was a coaching gesture made.

They didn't come down on Serena at any point, but that's not surprising. Their audible respect for Osaka's play was refreshing to hear, though.
 

Bartelby

Talk Tennis Guru
So what is neo-Marxism?

Another great definition i found,

An SJW (social justice warrior) is a person who adheres to neo-Marxism. Their ideology can be summed up as a mix of Nazism and Communism, where they advocate for complete state control, abolishment of capitalism, and equality of outcome (Communism) as well as blaming every societal ill on successful demographics which they deem evil and "privileged" (Nazism). SJWs hate males, Europeans, east Asian (men), heterosexuals, and Jews (among others). They believe that these demographics should be forced to serve less successful demographics (such as blacks, muslims, and females), who they claim are oppressed.

Subsets of this group include feminism (a female supremacist group centered around hating men, who they believe to be oppressing them) and "black lives matter" (a black supremacist ground centered around hating white people, who they believe to be oppressing them).
 

deaner2211

Semi-Pro
Yes, and this is a player who has been cheated by officials before in this very tournament. So of course she's suspicious and sensitive about it.

Ramos probably achieved what his goal was today and the people on this board celebrating him are doing so because of their insane hatred for Serena Williams.

The people who actually love tennis are sad because tennis got lost in the drama today.
And the brought up the Clijsters, and Stosur matches but they didnt say anything about the match when she played Capriati and the lines people along with the umpire kept calling Serena's shots out when they were clearly in.
 

Minnas

New User
Oh, the memories are so short.

I seem to remember Andy Roddick berating lines people over calls. And I mean yelling at a lines person about whether they know what they're doing or should be there et cetera. Basically being a huge bully. That was one reason I never liked the guy.

Code violation? Nope. Roddick got away with a huge amount. So you have a man who is a crowd favorite and a woman who was a crowd favorite, and one gets a code violation and one doesn't.

it seems quite obvious and blatant to me. John Mcenroe to this day makes a career out of how horrible and insulting he was to officials. That was a long time ago, but it is not like anyone has decided to banish him from the sport. Instead it is his brand and he is celebrated for it.
So you automatically go to sexism? How about there being different umpires? How about different situations? Nope it was definitely because Ramos hates women. You guys seem to imagine him up there plotting away at what he can do to women next. There were also other Serena matches where she’s gotten away with a hell of a lot btw.
 

Soianka

Hall of Fame
And the brought up the Clijsters, and Stosur matches but they didnt say anything about the match when she played Capriati and the lines people along with the umpire kept calling Serena's shots out when they were clearly in.
Good point. I think that Capriati match was the impetus for what happened with Clijsters and then later with Stosur to be honest.

That said, Serena really needs to work on not letting things get to her at the US Open. It never works out in her favor when she loses her cool. But I am sure that's much easier said than done.

I will say watching my daughter play as a junior and then in college, you really can have so much stronger emotions that you would expect. And I am sure it is exponentially greater for the actual player and exponentially greater for a pro player on a world stage.
 

sovertennis

Semi-Pro
Please tell me she didn't actually say this...
Verbatim. She could have meant that no one wanted all the drama, but she seemed to be saying that the outcome everyone wanted was a Serena win.

Katrina looked like she would have preferred to be anywhere else rather than at the stadium handing the trophy to Naomi (who the USTA did not want to help fund).
 

Colin

Professional
All the coaches do this.
Lance took epo cuz all the cyclists do!
I am the goddess. And i am entitled. And i am twelve.
Yep, people are misguidedly calling out Serena as a victim instead of Ramos as a hero. If there's an issue with discrepancy, it's that other umpires aren't enforcing the rules and the blowback from this is just going to make it worse. Too many of the umpires don't want the criticism and just let the match proceed as rules are constantly violated. Some won't overrule because Hawkeye might make them look bad.

You can't blame the umpires in some respects. Social media and TV commentators get riled up whenever they try to "insert themselves" in a match by actually enforcing rules. Brad Gilbert, Chris Evert and Co. think penalties should only be given at inconsequential times and that when matches are close, umpires shouldn't be involved at all. This is the wrong mindset. If the penalties are meaningless, then the players won't follow the rules. They will take the advantages they can get away with. Human nature. Make the penalties mean something and they will obey the rules.

People want to make this a sexism issue, but didn't Serena have issues with two female umpires at the U.S. Open (though she thought it was the same one)? But then they were being racist instead, right? There's a large subset of Serena fans who don't really pay attention to tennis but hold her up as a shining example of a powerful black woman. They attack anyone on social media who disagrees or has the audacity to call a man the greatest of all time (they attack Fed in particular, making sure people call him the male GOAT because of course Serena is the greatest of all time and if you disagree you're a racist sexist). They harass tennis bloggers when they dare question her behavior. The problem is they don't know anything about tennis because they don't watch tennis. They throw out absurd facts like McEnroe was able to get away with bad behavior his whole career with nary a point penalty (conveniently forgetting he was defaulted from a tournament). They also buy into false news that Serena is drug-tested way more than anyone else. Everyone is out to get her! I appreciate/respect the opinion of the people on this board who are actual tennis fans and want to make a case for Serena, even if I disagree. But the non-tennis-fans who want to get involved are just nuts. I'm guessing many didn't actually watch the match, just followed tweets about it.

These non-tennis-fans help perpetuate the Serena as Victim mythology, a mindset that she has embraced and uses to turn around matches — she uses the crowd and fights with umpires to amp herself up when she's being thoroughly outplayed as a way to help get her back in matches. "Everyone is against me, but I'm a fighter." Novak has used this effectively, too, though his beef is usually with the crowds and not the umpire (and he's right — the crowds are totally against him!). But Serena is just a narcissist and makes everything about her — she's the best and deserves to win, no matter what the opponent is doing and the umpires are working against her, not working to enforce the fairness of the match for both players.

All of her antics can throw opponents off their game if they don't stay tough (credit to Naomi, like Sam and Kim before her, for not falling into the trap). It's the same with Nadal, another narcissist with a victim mentality and disregard for opponents. In his case, he uses time violations, MTOs and the like to slow momentum and craft the tempo of the matches to his needs. When he's losing, it's his failing body — not his mind (his body fails much more than Novak and Roger, no?!) Both Nadal and Serena make it about them, and so do the commentators. They are obsessed with these players' fighter mentality and humility — because after all of their off-court antics they may deign to give their opponent some credit — "stop booing Naomi, this is her moment," "let's not talk about my knees, let's talk about my opponent, I never like to talk about my knee." They disregard the rules, then when they lose it's POOR ME!

If these non-tennis-fans looked harder they would find a much better role model in Venus, a strong black woman who doesn't need to intimidate umpires, linespeople and opponents. Despite not having Serena's technical skills and having a strength-sapping disease, she continues to play on in a long twilight nearing 40 years of age, her major titles far behind her. But she does it with class and dignity, unlike her sister.

Fittingly, Venus is the goddess.
 

jukka1970

Professional
For me, I wish he had waited to give the warming, and here's why.

It would have let Osaka serve. It would have shown if she could hold up under pressure. But to me here's the beauty.

If Osaka wins the second set, its over, there is no controversy. If Serena wins the set, I can almost guarantee she would have gone off on the umpire. And I believe she would have slipped here saying something worse, then give the game penalty. Osaka now has the advantage again. Now if Serena blows up she automatically loses the match. And if Osaka can hold all her serves, she wins the match, and then there is zero controversy, and the refs call doesn't have an effect.
 
So what is neo-Marxism?
Neo-Marxism is the ideology of a social-justice warrior. Their ideology can be summed up as a mix of Nazism and Communism, where they advocate for complete state control, abolishment of capitalism, and equality of outcome (Communism) as well as blaming every societal ill on successful demographics which they deem evil and "privileged" (Nazism). Neo-Marxists hate males, Europeans, east Asian (men), heterosexuals, and Jews (among others). They believe that these demographics should be forced to serve less successful demographics (such as blacks, muslims, and females), who they claim are oppressed.

I mean, duh! Don't you know anything? This is Jordan Peterson 101.
 

NuBas

Legend
Verbatim. She could have meant that no one wanted all the drama, but she seemed to be saying that the outcome everyone wanted was a Serena win.

Katrina looked like she would have preferred to be anywhere else rather than at the stadium handing the trophy to Naomi (who the USTA did not want to help fund).
Man the entire shabang was out of this world unprofessional You pay to watch the match that is 50/50, seems like the entire audience was stupid and thought it was easy for SW. Again, these US Open fans are not true tennis fans, they just wanna be there.

You can tell looking at Katrina Adams she is not a person of character.
 

Bartelby

Talk Tennis Guru
Your definitions seem to be circular and of course incorrect.

Cultural Marxism was actually invented in the 1920s so you need to begin there.

Neo-Marxism is the ideology of a social-justice warrior. Their ideology can be summed up as a mix of Nazism and Communism, where they advocate for complete state control, abolishment of capitalism, and equality of outcome (Communism) as well as blaming every societal ill on successful demographics which they deem evil and "privileged" (Nazism). Neo-Marxists hate males, Europeans, east Asian (men), heterosexuals, and Jews (among others). They believe that these demographics should be forced to serve less successful demographics (such as blacks, muslims, and females), who they claim are oppressed.

I mean, duh! Don't you know anything? This is Jordan Peterson 101.
 

jukka1970

Professional
Serena was verbally abusing that referee all day!! She's lucky he didn't kick her ass off the court!!
If you can give me an example of a higher level of abuse, I'm with you 100%.

Things like a threat, swearing at him, thing to me that is a real verbal abuse
 
Neo-Marxism is the ideology of a social-justice warrior. Their ideology can be summed up as a mix of Nazism and Communism, where they advocate for complete state control, abolishment of capitalism, and equality of outcome (Communism) as well as blaming every societal ill on successful demographics which they deem evil and "privileged" (Nazism). Neo-Marxists hate males, Europeans, east Asian (men), heterosexuals, and Jews (among others). They believe that these demographics should be forced to serve less successful demographics (such as blacks, muslims, and females), who they claim are oppressed.

I mean, duh! Don't you know anything? This is Jordan Peterson 101.
Back in the day, I called out @tennis_pro on creating a match thread before a winner had even been determined in the previous match (a regular practice of his, it turns out). His response was to call me a "social justice warrior." :)
 

swizzy

Hall of Fame
would have been much better if naomi won the second set in similar fashion as the first..without serena acting like a freak and bringing this down on herself. a few time violations were warranted as well. the "thief" comment is not the issue..it was the incessant words for three games. she was going to lose this match.. she lost way more in the end by adding to her image as a hot-head.
 
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