How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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Yep, people are misguidedly calling out Serena as a victim instead of Ramos as a hero. If there's an issue with discrepancy, it's that other umpires aren't enforcing the rules and the blowback from this is just going to make it worse. Too many of the umpires don't want the criticism and just let the match proceed as rules are constantly violated. Some won't overrule because Hawkeye might make them look bad.

You can't blame the umpires in some respects. Social media and TV commentators get riled up whenever they try to "insert themselves" in a match by actually enforcing rules. Brad Gilbert, Chris Evert and Co. think penalties should only be given at inconsequential times and that when matches are close, umpires shouldn't be involved at all. This is the wrong mindset. If the penalties are meaningless, then the players won't follow the rules. They will take the advantages they can get away with. Human nature. Make the penalties mean something and they will obey the rules.

People want to make this a sexism issue, but didn't Serena have issues with two female umpires at the U.S. Open (though she thought it was the same one)? But then they were being racist instead, right? There's a large subset of Serena fans who don't really pay attention to tennis but hold her up as a shining example of a powerful black woman. They attack anyone on social media who disagrees or has the audacity to call a man the greatest of all time (they attack Fed in particular, making sure people call him the male GOAT because of course Serena is the greatest of all time and if you disagree you're a racist sexist). They harass tennis bloggers when they dare question her behavior. The problem is they don't know anything about tennis because they don't watch tennis. They throw out absurd facts like McEnroe was able to get away with bad behavior his whole career with nary a point penalty (conveniently forgetting he was defaulted from a tournament). They also buy into false news that Serena is drug-tested way more than anyone else. Everyone is out to get her! I appreciate/respect the opinion of the people on this board who are actual tennis fans and want to make a case for Serena, even if I disagree. But the non-tennis-fans who want to get involved are just nuts. I'm guessing many didn't actually watch the match, just followed tweets about it.

These non-tennis-fans help perpetuate the Serena as Victim mythology, a mindset that she has embraced and uses to turn around matches — she uses the crowd and fights with umpires to amp herself up when she's being thoroughly outplayed as a way to help get her back in matches. "Everyone is against me, but I'm a fighter." Novak has used this effectively, too, though his beef is usually with the crowds and not the umpire (and he's right — the crowds are totally against him!). But Serena is just a narcissist and makes everything about her — she's the best and deserves to win, no matter what the opponent is doing and the umpires are working against her, not working to enforce the fairness of the match for both players.

All of her antics can throw opponents off their game if they don't stay tough (credit to Naomi, like Sam and Kim before her, for not falling into the trap). It's the same with Nadal, another narcissist with a victim mentality and disregard for opponents. In his case, he uses time violations, MTOs and the like to slow momentum and craft the tempo of the matches to his needs. When he's losing, it's his failing body — not his mind (his body fails much more than Novak and Roger, no?!) Both Nadal and Serena make it about them, and so do the commentators. They are obsessed with these players' fighter mentality and humility — because after all of their off-court antics they may deign to give their opponent some credit — "stop booing Naomi, this is her moment," "let's not talk about my knees, let's talk about my opponent, I never like to talk about my knee." They disregard the rules, then when they lose it's POOR ME!

If these non-tennis-fans looked harder they would find a much better role model in Venus, a strong black woman who doesn't need to intimidate umpires, linespeople and opponents. Despite not having Serena's technical skills and having a strength-sapping disease, she continues to play on in a long twilight nearing 40 years of age, her major titles far behind her. But she does it with class and dignity, unlike her sister.

Fittingly, Venus is the goddess.
Dooohhooohhoood. Doood. Who the heck do you think you are?!
This is the internet, @Colin. You are way too artikyulit. Way too rashenol. Mayken Way too much cents.
Yer prolly gunna need to chill, dood. And take yer logic with you, back like, old timey fantessy land or whutevs. Calm and cents, man.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Nadal abandonned ship so it could have been worse.

would have been much better if naomi won the second set in similar fashion as the first..without serena acting like a freak and bringing this down on herself. a few time violations were warranted as well. the "thief" comment is not the issue..it was the incessant words for three games. she was going to lose this match.. she lost way more in the end by adding to her image as a hot-head.
 

CdnUmp

New User
My take on things - coaching happens all the time. Umpires are well aware of where the player boxes are and you'll notice them looking between points and on changeovers, especially when the player is on the side near their coach. Unless there is something blatant, like a coach standing up and yelling "serve to her forehand" or something like that, the umpire will usually warn the player on a changeover and say that they're seeing or hearing things that may be interpreted as coaching and that it needs to stop. As a line umpire, on more than one occasion I've had a chair call me over and ask me if I could hear what was being said more clearly than they could. For a code violation to be given for coaching, in my experience, there must be ongoing signalling despite a warning or something blatant. I'm not sure if there were any conversations between Carlos and Serena earlier in the match.

But let's assume that the code for coaching was hasty and erroneous. Let's assume that she legitimately had no idea what her coach was doing or that all he did was give her a thumbs up. It's a warning. It means nothing. They had a nice conversation about it afterwards in which she explained her position and Carlos seemed to understand and sympathize and smile and nod. But he still gave the warning. You can't take it back. She's been playing long enough to know that. The warning was there. At that point, it was all out of Carlos' hands. The racket abuse was clear. There's no judgement on that. After the racket abuse, she let him have it. Twice. Once at the point penalty and again on the changeover. He took it, as he should have. And he took a lot. Then she crossed the line. Calling an umpire a thief is accusing them of being partial and attacking their integrity. That's a very clear line that you do not cross. I've taken a lot of crap from players of the years because I know that emotions are high and I know that they're the ones out there competing. What I have never taken and will never take is being accused of cheating, partiality or having my integrity questioned.

While the code violation for coaching might not have been the correct call, it was a warning, no different than a time violation warning. Serena should have put it aside and just played tennis. Her actions and her actions alone resulted in the rest of the fireworks that we saw today.
 

Simon_the_furry

Hall of Fame
Why are people surprised? She's always been rude to other players, racist even, and lacking class. This is a person who threatened an innocent lineswomen who makes 1/100000th of what she does with death, and she got a joke of a punishment.

I'm glad USTA had the balls to enforce the rules.

What was the commentary like, I'm sure Pam, Chris etc who are rabid Serena fans and always defend her and insult other players, were throwing fits?
They were making excuses for her. Typical ass-backwards ESPN coverage. Disgusting IMO.
 
D

Deleted member 754093

Guest
Nadal doing the exact same thing with 2 prior violations berates Bernardes and says that he will never coach one of his matches again.

Doesn't receive a game penalty or even a penalty taken away from him
He didn't already have two code violations. Context is important
 

Soianka

Hall of Fame
She called him a liar and a thief. That's way over the line, and I've never heard any heated exchange reach that point where you're saying the the umpire is dishonest, basically insulting them.

And hang on if it's sexism, you need to show other examples of where Ramos has been stricter with female players vs male ones. You can't just cite this example and say it's because she's a woman.

And what another umpire did in a men's match has no relation to this umpire in a woman's match.
You haven't watch much tennis then.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
A bunch of animals.

Man I wish they could stop the match for a couple of minutes and give a microphone to Bill Burr.
 

yokied

Hall of Fame
Pretty much saying don't blame us, blame the chair umpire. Cowards. Should have said the umpire was following the rules and left it at that.
Agreed. They didn't say anything ambiguous or equivocating to even hint that any of his decisions were wrong or that there would be any review or further correspondence on the subject, so it wasn't the weakest statement I've ever seen. That came from the USTA dude.

This might be the first WTA match I willingly watch in a long, long time and for all the wrong reasons.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
Nonsense. NY is in America. It's been heah for yeeeaz. So is Louisiana, even though people think it ain't. Same with SF. Berkeley. Texas. The flyova states. All America. Big, diverse, scary country. United States. Not divided. Not polarized. Not separatist.

You know what is not American? To call a major part of America unAmerican. Why? Because they disagree with your politics? They have a strange accent? Too many damn forriners? They took yer jaabz?

NY is the hometown of the American dream to a LOT of people over the past few generations.

Dissent is patriotic.
NY is America.
Yeah, some social justice warriors need to gain perspective.
But some of you might need to remember some history.
Cr.p ! NYC has huge foreign born population, 40 pct! The total is more than any other US city's entire population except LA. But LA has equally large foreign born souls.
How can it be real America? Real America exists, but it's elsewhere in the country.
 

sovertennis

Professional
Ramos was a tad too thin-skinned unless he heard something we didn't.
We viewers saw and heard a lot of Serena's tirade, but probably not all of it, so I can't fault Ramos for citing a third (game violation). SW's tirade was endless, and he'd probably heard enough. I believe he handled the matter appropriately and well.
 
Yes. But i believe the correct spelling has some sort of number sign or pound sign as a prefix.
So, uhm, yeah, I fixed that for you, yo.
@natalia .

So, here is whut i have lurnd.
When you are losing, get very upset. Do not treat winning and losing the same. Be abusive. Do what thou wilt, dammit!
When being cautioned or warned, fight for your entitlement.
When rules are enforced, be outraged. You are not paranoid if the conspiracy is real and they really are out to get you. It is personal, so get mad and show it. Be abusive and be outraged if they think you are being abusive.
Then, turn it into a gender bias issue. Be professionally offended. Turn into social justice. Not so Chill Just us.
 
Last edited:

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Serena is such a disgusting poor loser. She pulled similar crap when Kim Klysters was kicking her fat arse off the court a few years ago. So happy she lost she is a disgrace to the game.
 
D

Deleted member 754093

Guest
My take on things - coaching happens all the time. Umpires are well aware of where the player boxes are and you'll notice them looking between points and on changeovers, especially when the player is on the side near their coach. Unless there is something blatant, like a coach standing up and yelling "serve to her forehand" or something like that, the umpire will usually warn the player on a changeover and say that they're seeing or hearing things that may be interpreted as coaching and that it needs to stop. As a line umpire, on more than one occasion I've had a chair call me over and ask me if I could hear what was being said more clearly than they could. For a code violation to be given for coaching, in my experience, there must be ongoing signalling despite a warning or something blatant. I'm not sure if there were any conversations between Carlos and Serena earlier in the match.

But let's assume that the code for coaching was hasty and erroneous. Let's assume that she legitimately had no idea what her coach was doing or that all he did was give her a thumbs up. It's a warning. It means nothing. They had a nice conversation about it afterwards in which she explained her position and Carlos seemed to understand and sympathize and smile and nod. But he still gave the warning. You can't take it back. She's been playing long enough to know that. The warning was there. At that point, it was all out of Carlos' hands. The racket abuse was clear. There's no judgement on that. After the racket abuse, she let him have it. Twice. Once at the point penalty and again on the changeover. He took it, as he should have. And he took a lot. Then she crossed the line. Calling an umpire a thief is accusing them of being partial and attacking their integrity. That's a very clear line that you do not cross. I've taken a lot of crap from players of the years because I know that emotions are high and I know that they're the ones out there competing. What I have never taken and will never take is being accused of cheating, partiality or having my integrity questioned.

While the code violation for coaching might not have been the correct call, it was a warning, no different than a time violation warning. Serena should have put it aside and just played tennis. Her actions and her actions alone resulted in the rest of the fireworks that we saw today.
Exactly. Shake off the meaningless warning. Laugh it off, or yell a bit and get it all out. We can argue about the merits of the coaching violation, but everything after that happened on account of her own volition. If she never smashes the racquet, she never gets the second violation, and she never gets into the spat...and so on.
 

insideguy

Legend
My take on things - coaching happens all the time. Umpires are well aware of where the player boxes are and you'll notice them looking between points and on changeovers, especially when the player is on the side near their coach. Unless there is something blatant, like a coach standing up and yelling "serve to her forehand" or something like that, the umpire will usually warn the player on a changeover and say that they're seeing or hearing things that may be interpreted as coaching and that it needs to stop. As a line umpire, on more than one occasion I've had a chair call me over and ask me if I could hear what was being said more clearly than they could. For a code violation to be given for coaching, in my experience, there must be ongoing signalling despite a warning or something blatant. I'm not sure if there were any conversations between Carlos and Serena earlier in the match.

But let's assume that the code for coaching was hasty and erroneous. Let's assume that she legitimately had no idea what her coach was doing or that all he did was give her a thumbs up. It's a warning. It means nothing. They had a nice conversation about it afterwards in which she explained her position and Carlos seemed to understand and sympathize and smile and nod. But he still gave the warning. You can't take it back. She's been playing long enough to know that. The warning was there. At that point, it was all out of Carlos' hands. The racket abuse was clear. There's no judgement on that. After the racket abuse, she let him have it. Twice. Once at the point penalty and again on the changeover. He took it, as he should have. And he took a lot. Then she crossed the line. Calling an umpire a thief is accusing them of being partial and attacking their integrity. That's a very clear line that you do not cross. I've taken a lot of crap from players of the years because I know that emotions are high and I know that they're the ones out there competing. What I have never taken and will never take is being accused of cheating, partiality or having my integrity questioned.

While the code violation for coaching might not have been the correct call, it was a warning, no different than a time violation warning. Serena should have put it aside and just played tennis. Her actions and her actions alone resulted in the rest of the fireworks that we saw today.
U underestimate the code violation for coaching. Its a fuse, in a highly pressurized environment. He lite the match. The gas was seeping from there. I get your points. If the code violation for coaching does not happen, then much of this could have been avoided. I have a job, where I deal with people, its a dangerous job, sometimes I have to be smart even if I am in the right. I have to to know when to start something and when to let it go.
 

merwy

Legend
Did you watch Patrick ? With both hands he was asking her to move forward
Yeah, wasn't it obvious that I saw it? I described it the same as you. I said it looked like a "come on" or "come forward" gesture. But it's such a general, standard gesture..
 

TenS_Ace

Professional
But I cannot begin to count the number of times men have sat in their chairs on changeovers and had heated discussions with umpires, and nothing whatever happens.
IMHO and specific to RAMOS..he lets the men get away with stuff because he's afraid of getting his *** kicked, he was very very lucky that Serena didn't drag him out of the chair and "speed bag" him :D She could put a whuppin' on most of the Top 10 men :p
 

Rippy

Hall of Fame
Yep, people are misguidedly calling out Serena as a victim instead of Ramos as a hero. If there's an issue with discrepancy, it's that other umpires aren't enforcing the rules and the blowback from this is just going to make it worse. Too many of the umpires don't want the criticism and just let the match proceed as rules are constantly violated. Some won't overrule because Hawkeye might make them look bad.

You can't blame the umpires in some respects. Social media and TV commentators get riled up whenever they try to "insert themselves" in a match by actually enforcing rules. Brad Gilbert, Chris Evert and Co. think penalties should only be given at inconsequential times and that when matches are close, umpires shouldn't be involved at all. This is the wrong mindset. If the penalties are meaningless, then the players won't follow the rules. They will take the advantages they can get away with. Human nature. Make the penalties mean something and they will obey the rules.

People want to make this a sexism issue, but didn't Serena have issues with two female umpires at the U.S. Open (though she thought it was the same one)? But then they were being racist instead, right? There's a large subset of Serena fans who don't really pay attention to tennis but hold her up as a shining example of a powerful black woman. They attack anyone on social media who disagrees or has the audacity to call a man the greatest of all time (they attack Fed in particular, making sure people call him the male GOAT because of course Serena is the greatest of all time and if you disagree you're a racist sexist). They harass tennis bloggers when they dare question her behavior. The problem is they don't know anything about tennis because they don't watch tennis. They throw out absurd facts like McEnroe was able to get away with bad behavior his whole career with nary a point penalty (conveniently forgetting he was defaulted from a tournament). They also buy into false news that Serena is drug-tested way more than anyone else. Everyone is out to get her! I appreciate/respect the opinion of the people on this board who are actual tennis fans and want to make a case for Serena, even if I disagree. But the non-tennis-fans who want to get involved are just nuts. I'm guessing many didn't actually watch the match, just followed tweets about it.

These non-tennis-fans help perpetuate the Serena as Victim mythology, a mindset that she has embraced and uses to turn around matches — she uses the crowd and fights with umpires to amp herself up when she's being thoroughly outplayed as a way to help get her back in matches. "Everyone is against me, but I'm a fighter." Novak has used this effectively, too, though his beef is usually with the crowds and not the umpire (and he's right — the crowds are totally against him!). But Serena is just a narcissist and makes everything about her — she's the best and deserves to win, no matter what the opponent is doing and the umpires are working against her, not working to enforce the fairness of the match for both players.

All of her antics can throw opponents off their game if they don't stay tough (credit to Naomi, like Sam and Kim before her, for not falling into the trap). It's the same with Nadal, another narcissist with a victim mentality and disregard for opponents. In his case, he uses time violations, MTOs and the like to slow momentum and craft the tempo of the matches to his needs. When he's losing, it's his failing body — not his mind (his body fails much more than Novak and Roger, no?!) Both Nadal and Serena make it about them, and so do the commentators. They are obsessed with these players' fighter mentality and humility — because after all of their off-court antics they may deign to give their opponent some credit — "stop booing Naomi, this is her moment," "let's not talk about my knees, let's talk about my opponent, I never like to talk about my knee." They disregard the rules, then when they lose it's POOR ME!

If these non-tennis-fans looked harder they would find a much better role model in Venus, a strong black woman who doesn't need to intimidate umpires, linespeople and opponents. Despite not having Serena's technical skills and having a strength-sapping disease, she continues to play on in a long twilight nearing 40 years of age, her major titles far behind her. But she does it with class and dignity, unlike her sister.

Fittingly, Venus is the goddess.
Well said.
 
Your definitions seem to be circular and of course incorrect.

Cultural Marxism was actually invented in the 1920s so you need to begin there.
I was satirizing the other poster. I agree with you. Read above for my other posts. Clearly very few of the American liberals dubbed “SJW” are marxists of any sort, Frankfurt school or otherwise.
 

tenisdecente

Hall of Fame
USTA statements have been poor this tournament. First the Kyrgios incident, where they try to fool people, and now this, backing lightly the umpire. LOL
 

insideguy

Legend
Perhaps Serena should have heeded this advice
She is in the wrong to. But you don't throw a code violation into a slam final, in front to 30,000 people for a hand gesture. PERIOD. You are asking for a problem, no matter what the player says good or bad. Many people always look at the end of an incident. They don't really look back at the beginning.
 

sovertennis

Professional
Gained a lot of respect for Naomi Osaka today. She stood in the face of that like a trooper and came out victorious.

The crowd can suck it. :cool:
Agreed. Although I've seen her (all on TV, never in person) play only a few times, I'll cheer for her henceforth. She's polite, calm, respectful and has a very big game.
 

jarko111

Hall of Fame
Serena was kind of right.. Just Youtube male tennis players going off on umpires. She called him a thief. They've been called worse.

That being said.. years from now.. maybe even decades from now when Osaka is introduced as a slam champion. People won't think twice about her being given a game.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Sorry I missed that: Jordan Peterson was a big clue but not someone in my cultural universe, marxist or otherwise.

I was satirizing the other poster. I agree with you. Read above for my other posts. Clearly very few of the American liberals dubbed “SJW” are marxists of any sort, Frankfurt school or otherwise.
 

TennisDawg

Professional
Ramos did not accuse Serena of cheating, as she repeatedly accused him of doing; he gave the warning based on the gestures Patrick M made toward her (and Patrick admitted that he coached/cheated in his post match interview). So Serena's on going rant was based more on her ego and apparent sense of being entitled (she does call herself "Queen" after all) to smash her racket and berate Ramos quite viciously ("Apologize to me right now!").

Serena got a code violation for Patrick's coaching. So what. Players get code violations regularly for all manner seemingly minor incidents (like turning your shirt over because it's on inside-out). They play on. They keep their composure. They don't take it as a personal insult, then smash their racket and verbally assault the umpire.
IMO, it’s all in the manner of how you speak to the umpire. Serena could/should have used a question to complain to the umpire, like don’t you think you should apologize to me? She didn’t it was an imperative statement, “you need to apologize to me, apologize to me” most people don’t respond to those type of demands in a heated discussions. She should have realized a good umpire won’t be intimidated. Perhaps the umpire should have ignored the coaching call but Serena was immediately in your face confrontational, she should have ignored that and moved on. The racquet abuse was self inflicted as was her tirade towards the umpire that cost her a game. She went on a rant about women’s rights, equality, being a mother, having a daighter which is mostly irrelevant if she’s just playing another women in a tennis match, so I don’t get that part. Another contributing factor is that Osaka was giving her a sound thrashing and Serena blew her cork as she has done before.
 
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