How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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tenisdecente

Hall of Fame
If you can give me an example of a higher level of abuse, I'm with you 100%.

Things like a threat, swearing at him, thing to me that is a real verbal abuse
Well, maybe you missed the part where Serena told him he wont be ever in another match of her. I dont know what you qualify as verbal abuse, but for starters, yelling is a verbal abuse basically in any civilzed society. So your defense is poorer than Karlovic's one
 
Truly shocking moment when the champion is disconsolate and the "loser" is basking in adulation. She's done this before with Kim Clijsters, and what does it say about the "Nu York" crowds. Ramos just followed the rules to the T. You can argue about him being a bit clerical, but Serena had no business calling him names and then arguing with the "mother" and then even worse, the gender card into this, which was totally irrelevant. Its shocking that for someone who has won 20+ Grand Slam titles and is universally acknowledged as the greatest player in the women's game, there is total absence of a philosophical attitude and a quiet demeanour that should first reflect on her poor performance in set-1 instead of raving and ranting.
If she doesn't play at the US Open next year, she won't be missed.
 

ohplease

Professional
The penalties have to escalate. From memory McEnroe miscalculated at the AO in 1991 when he thought he would be penalised the set, but the next step up from a game penalty is the match.
Here's the thing - McEnroe claimed at the time that he was caught out then because there had just recently been a rule change that removed the set penalty and instead now went from game penalty directly to default. Notably, for all of McEnroe's history of bad behavior, he was never defaulted like that again. He learned from that experience.

Serena was already given a point penalty that cost her a semifinal victory against Clijsters at this very tournament in 2009. It's not like she hasn't been on this road before. Regardless of the umpires style of managing a match, if you're already on the road of escalating consequences, your behavior needs to get in line with the person who has the power to penalize you. Doesn't mean it's fair - but it definitely means you need to recognize that this is possible if you don't want to get tossed.

Consider technical fouls in the NBA. Those aren't handed out fairly either. Still, players know that if they've got one, they only need one more to get tossed. Do they keep arguing? Rarely. But for the most part they adjust their play/aggression to help out their cause. Across all sports - managing officiating is as much a part of the game as managing game flow, managing your opponent, managing the crowd, etc.

Everybody else berates umpires, everybody else coaches, everybody else smashes rackets, women are officiated differently, etc. etc. etc. - all of that can be true or not true. Regardless, none of that means anything in the context of trying to win the match in front of you today. If the officiating represents a problem for you today, minutes long tirades are not at all helping you solve that problem. You can't win this match and solve sexism/fix tennis' rulebook at the same time. Especially if you're getting dunked on by your opponent.

Congrats to Osaka - she was winning that match going away, even with the crowd, even with the drama. Whether Serena intends to disrupt her opponents with drama or not, this has happened often enough in her career that in the same way it's not surprising that drama can sometimes turns matches around for her, it's also not surprising that she winds up on the wrong side of the equation multiple times, either. The USTA will likely learn from this. The umpire will likely learn from this. Osaka will learn from this. Serena has lived though almost this exact scenario before and didn't learn then - it's not likely she'll learn now, either.
 
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Deleted member 754093

Guest
She is in the wrong to. But you don't throw a code violation into a slam final, in front to 30,000 people for a hand gesture. PERIOD. You are asking for a problem, no matter what the player says good or bad. Many people always look at the end of an incident. They don't really look back at the beginning.
It was blatant coaching, and she knew it. She didn't deny that she had seen it. She specifically said "it was only a thumbs up," not "I didn't even see what he was doing."

The chair ump was in the right. Period. It's unfair to Osaka to let that slide. And for Serena, it's not even a point penalty -- it's a warning. Clearly it didn't "warn" her about anything. At the end of the day, she still made a conscious choice to lose her cool, and in 20 years of playing the game, she should know better.
 

merwy

Legend
Agree on every point. Only want to point out that I don't care about her breaking a racket. Tennis is very mentally tough sport. I'd probably break rackets regularly if someone else paid for them.
 
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sovertennis

Professional
Can someone fill me in on the daughter jokes? Why is everyone mentioning serena' daughter?
TV commercials heralding Serena's motherhood and her post-partum comeback, and the endless reminders from Chrissy, Mary Jo, Chris McEndry et al at ESPN. For the entire two weeks of the USO, the praise never stopped from that crew.
 
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Deleted member 754093

Guest
But he didn't even get a code violation from it.
You're on notice after the first two. There's no leniency anymore.
It's akin to playing soccer on a yellow card late in the game. Any iffy challenge you do and you're out.
 
1 - The level at which the rules are enforced is adjusted yearly according to what is deemed best for the sport. I.e. when need a shot clock because play needs to be sped up and we need a consistent way to manage the players. NFL does the same with pass interference etc. so comparing to historical past (Connor; McEnroe, etc) is not a valid comparison, especially 30 years ago. As you move into more important games/matches the rules may Ben 8nterpreted differently again “for the betterment of the game”. See any Super Bowl officiating vs regular season.

2 - when most players get a code violation the correct the behavior to prevent point/game loss etc. Serena could not self correct once the violations started to come. And for the record when they come you quickly should realize they may be calling this match tighter.

After the first violation she should have gotten herself under control.

3 - Serena has history, at the us open. This does mean she is going to be held to a higher standard. Because of her past

4 = Many of the omen watching w me thought Serena was doing this on purpose. It was not her being beaten by Osaka but these other issues, that resulted in her loss.

5 - it may have been n attempt to protect Osaka from gamesmanship. Like Connorss and Mac used to use, particularly at the open to mess w their opponents. It certainly seemed like the 4 points after the game was awarded that Osaka was wrattled or gave her the points (love old w no real return for Williams I think). Osaka played a great match. Serena’s actions took away from that.

I thought the game/third violation was a bit strict but within the rules.

I would also say that a finals match being watched by millions of people is very different than 1st or 2nd round match watch by a significant smaller viewership.
 

FD3S

Hall of Fame
I see a lot of people getting hung up on the third violation that gave her a point penalty, with the rationale being that being called a thief wasn't enough. In isolation, sure, I can see that.

This wasn't, however, in isolation, and Serena had been getting in the umpire's face ever since the coaching penalty during changeovers and right before games, demanding an apology, saying how she didn't cheat, etc, and let's face it; there was no way it was going to end of Serena's own volition.

Should Ramos have done nothing and let the rant get longer than most productions of Hamilton? No. At some point, enough has to be enough because no player, Serena or not, should be permitted to keep going on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

(And on).

Should Ramos have given her a warning, saying that any more and she'd be assessed a game penalty? No, and he had no reason to. Serena had two violations, and that's about a clear cut warning as it gets that you miiiiggghhhht want to stop before a third's handed down.

Then she called him a thief, calling his ethics as an umpire into question, and boom goes the dynamite.
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
A baseball umpire Ron Luciano was once banned from ever calling another game that Earl Weaver was the manager of because (in short) they hated each other. Maybe tennis should start doing something like that. When there are matches and there's excessive conflict between the umpire and the player in one match, try to assign different umpires to that players matches in the future. I doubt that's even possible but I think it would be worth a try.
 
Sorry I missed that: Jordan Peterson was a big clue but not someone in my cultural universe, marxist or otherwise.
He has probably done more than anyone else to bequeath to North American right wing young men the idea that advocates of social change are “cultural marxists.” So when I see reference to “social justice warriors being cultural marxists” I always think of him first.
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
Agree on every point. Only want to point out that I don't care about her breaking a racket. Tennis is very mentally tough sport. I'd probably break rackets regularly if someone else paid for them.
I don't have a problem with racket breaking either and I think it's an archaic rule. The only person that racket breaking hurts is the player because those things are damned expensive.
 

ttbrowne

Hall of Fame
I recall Fognini suspended and fined 96 Large at the USO a few years back. Abusing an umpire.
Where's the sexism, Serena??
 
Cr.p ! NYC has huge foreign born population, 40 pct! The total is more than any other US city's entire population except LA. But LA has equally large foreign born souls.
How can it be real America? Real America exists, but it's elsewhere in the country.
Maybe you are saying that naturalized citizens are not real Americans?
You understand that the foreign born NYers are American, right? Not the undocumented ones. But the ones who deserve to be here....are here....and they live here, work here, and they have a green card, or citizenship papers, and they are Americans.
Cannot be president. But they are Americans.

They likely came here because it is America. An urban, progressive part of America, but, America nonetheless.
 

insideguy

Legend
It was blatant coaching, and she knew it. She didn't deny that she had seen it. She specifically said "it was only a thumbs up," not "I didn't even see what he was doing."

The chair ump was in the right. Period. It's unfair to Osaka to let that slide. And for Serena, it's not even a point penalty -- it's a warning. Clearly it didn't "warn" her about anything. At the end of the day, she still made a conscious choice to lose her cool, and in 20 years of playing the game, she should know better.
Look. The dude has never gotten a coaching violation. Serena doesn't even get on court coaching in reg tournaments, it was a hand gesture. I don't think you are understanding what I am saying here. You have to have common sense. If you guys want this stuff to be black and white, and everybody to call everything this is some kind of dream world. We all know this doesn't happen. And to throw stuff like this into a slam final, is injecting yourself into a highly charged match.
 
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Deleted member 754093

Guest
I see a lot of people getting hung up on the third violation that gave her a point penalty, with the rationale being that being called a thief wasn't enough. In isolation, sure, I can see that.

This wasn't, however, in isolation, and Serena had been getting in the umpire's face ever since the coaching penalty during changeovers and right before games, demanding an apology, saying how she didn't cheat, etc, and let's face it; there was no way it was going to end of Serena's own volition.

Should Ramos have done nothing and let the rant get longer than most productions of Hamilton? No. At some point, enough has to be enough because no player, Serena or not, should be permitted to keep going on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

(And on).

Should Ramos have given her a warning, saying that any more and she'd be assessed a game penalty? No, and he had no reason to. Serena had two violations, and that's about a clear cut warning as it gets that you miiiiggghhhht want to stop before a third's handed down.

Then she called him a thief, calling his ethics as an umpire into question, and boom goes the dynamite.
Spot on. The two previous violations should have been taken as "warnings."
 

dunlop_fort_knox

Professional
perspective is not milk toast analysis where you don't have a point of view. like your analysis here. we all know what happened here. and it's not a good look for SW.

As has become the case with most controversies, we have made it a choice between two extremes. Some say Serena did absolutely nothing wrong and is a hero for standing up to the chair umpire and calling him a thief.

The other side says takes joy in pointing out that the umpire acted within the rules and say that Serena deserved the consequences. There was absolutely nothing dubious about the chair's decision.

Clearly, the truth is in the middle of these extremes. Each warning against Serena was technically legitimate, and she should not have called the umpire a thief. On the other hand, it would have been best if the umpire had used a little discretion and not issued a game penalty. Thief is not such a vulgar term that he couldn't have chosen to withhold the penalty.

Serena was not blameless or heroic for yelling at the umpire, but that doesn't mean he made the best possible decision, either.
 
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Deleted member 754093

Guest
Look. The dude has never gotten a coaching violation. Serena doesn't even get on court coaching in reg tournaments, it was a hand gesture. I don't think you are understanding what I am saying here. You have to have common sense. If you guys want this stuff to be black and white, and everybody to call everything this is some kind of dream world. We all know this doesn't happen. And to throw stuff like this into a slam final, is injecting yourself into a highly charged match.
A hand gesture that she heeded. She definitely started to come into the net after it.

Look, the violation may have been iffy, but the meltdown is all on her. She needs to own up to it, but she won't. She never has.
 

Rogfan

Professional
Compared with Williams' appalling behaviour, I find this Katrina Adam's statement more disturbing and disgraceful. She and the organisation she represents, absolutely has no moral or bottomline whatsoever to have released a statement so full of praises for Willians. Plus if she did say in the ceremony that 'it's not the result we want', she should be sacked immediately. If I was Osaka, I'd file a complaint against her disrespectful comment and demand an apology
 

deaner2211

Semi-Pro
And the brought up the Clijsters, and Stosur matches but they didnt say anything about the match when she played Capriati and the lines people along with the umpire kept calling Serena's shots out when they were clearly in.
If you would have watched the presentation, they booed the USTA president and Osaka started crying then Serena said something to here and she stopped. Then in Serena's speech she told the fans not to boo but they started again before Osaka was presented with here trophy. Once Osaka started her speech with a few sobs the crowd comforted her.
 

Djokodal Fan

Hall of Fame
Players like Serena are a disgrace to tennis world. Not sure why she stoops even further to show her quality.

As though she is the only athlete to come back after a child birth. As though she is the only player to have a girl child. Enough of this usopen media and BS commentators
 

TripleATeam

Legend
Maybe you are saying that naturalized citizens are not real Americans?
You understand that the foreign born NYers are American, right? Not the undocumented ones. But the ones who deserve to be here....are here....and they live here, work here, and they have a green card, or citizenship papers, and they are Americans.
Cannot be president. But they are Americans.

They likely came here because it is America. An urban, progressive part of America, but, America nonetheless.
Also, isn't America built on immigration? All people migrated here one way or another. Some just more recently. :D
 

deaner2211

Semi-Pro
The chair umpire did his job perfectly! Serena acted like a child out there today and she should feel embarrassed by her actions! The chair umpire owes Serena NO apology at all!! In fact it's Serena who owes Naomi Osaka an apology for ruining her moment today! Excuse my French, but Naomi Osaka kicked Serena's ass out there today and totally deserves her first slam!! She also became the first male or female player in Japan to win a slam!! It was great to witness history today, but it wasn't great to watch Serena play the fool today!!
No the umpire did not do his job properly! Coaching has been going on all tournament long and not once has it been called but it got called against Serena. You really think he would have done the same if it would have been Fed, Nadal or Murray?
 

sportmac

Hall of Fame
First warning, I would have thought a soft warning would have been called for. It happens all the time. Players get a "warning" before actually getting a warning.

The racquet is automatic.

The third call is really where the circumstances come into play. Serena wouldn't drop it and I'm sure it was annoying as hell but to issue a game penalty during the final of a grand slam should require something more egregious than "thief".

All I saw was the chair defending his position and not enough trying to diffuse it. He didn't handle it as well as he could have, IMO.
 

brokenRPM

Rookie
R. UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT Players shall at all times conduct themselves in a sportsmanlike manner and give due regard to the authority of officials and the rights of opponents, spectators and others. Violation of this Section shall subject a player to a fine up to $20,000 for each violation. In addition, if such violation occurs during a match (including the warmup), the player shall be penalised in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule hereinafter set forth. In circumstances that are flagrant and particularly injurious to the success of a tournament, or are singularly egregious, a single violation of this Section shall also constitute the Major Offence of “Aggravated Behaviour” and shall be subject to the additional penalties hereinafter set forth. For the purposes of this Rule, Unsportsmanlike Conduct is defined as any misconduct by a player that is clearly abusive or detrimental to the Sport. In addition, unsportsmanlike conduct shall include, but not be limited to, the giving, making, issuing, authorising or endorsing any public statement having, or designed to have, an effect prejudicial or detrimental to the best interests of the tournament and/or the officiating thereof.

S. POINT PENALTY SCHEDULE The Point Penalty Schedule to be used for violations set forth above is as follows:
FIRST offence WARNING
SECOND offence POINT PENALTY
THIRD AND EACH SUBSEQUENT offence GAME PENALTY

https://www.itftennis.com/media/277968/277968.pdf
 

insideguy

Legend
A hand gesture that she heeded. She definitely started to come into the net after it.

Look, the violation may have been iffy, but the meltdown is all on her. She needs to own up to it, but she won't. She never has.
You are not wrong. I am saying the official needs to be the bigger person to be the person to be able to solve a situation. Look I am a cop. I don't do everything right all the time. But I know I can push buttons that can't be unpushed. Does not make me wrong to push those buttons. But I don't have to, to solve the problem either.
 
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..booing the other team,
Hilarious, you never been to a soccer game in europe? Next time Hitler invades Europe, us ignorant Americans will stay home and let you high cultured euros nuance the situation between yourselves with your high standard of living allowed for because you don't need to pay for a military because AMERICAN lives have been protecting you--not anymore.

serena robbed Naomi of the joy of winning--serena had another roid rage--poor 1%'er.
 
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Deleted member 754093

Guest
First warning, I would have thought a soft warning would have been called for. It happens all the time. Players get a "warning" before actually getting a warning.

The racquet is automatic.

The third call is really where the circumstances come into play. Serena wouldn't drop it and I'm sure it was annoying as hell but to issue a game penalty during the final of a grand slam should require something more egregious than "thief".

All I saw was the chair defending his position and not enough trying to diffuse it. He didn't handle it as well as he could have, IMO.
Game penalty is not his call. It's what is earned after the third code violation.
She had been berating him off screen for a few minutes, calling him a liar and making threats that he would never referee another one of her matches, and then she personally attacks him. That's not okay. A verbal abuse call is warranted.

It just happened to be the third violation. I wouldn't say a racquet smash warrants a game penalty in and of itself either, but if it's the third one, you're out of luck. That's what a ton of the wackjobs on Twitter who have never watched a tennis match in their lives don't understand
 

prairiegirl

Hall of Fame
Ramos followed the rule book to a tee. Serena screeching otherwise doesn’t change that.
This is the second time Williams has faced severe consequences in the US OPEN WOMEN'S SINGLES FINAL. In 2009 she was defaulted, although it was near the end, for threatening a lineswoman. Again, she denied it. She was shameful. https://nypost.com/2018/09/08/its-shameful-what-us-open-did-to-naomi-osaka/?utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow
 
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