How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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My take on things - coaching happens all the time. Umpires are well aware of where the player boxes are and you'll notice them looking between points and on changeovers, especially when the player is on the side near their coach. Unless there is something blatant, like a coach standing up and yelling "serve to her forehand" or something like that, the umpire will usually warn the player on a changeover and say that they're seeing or hearing things that may be interpreted as coaching and that it needs to stop. As a line umpire, on more than one occasion I've had a chair call me over and ask me if I could hear what was being said more clearly than they could. For a code violation to be given for coaching, in my experience, there must be ongoing signalling despite a warning or something blatant. I'm not sure if there were any conversations between Carlos and Serena earlier in the match.

But let's assume that the code for coaching was hasty and erroneous. Let's assume that she legitimately had no idea what her coach was doing or that all he did was give her a thumbs up. It's a warning. It means nothing. They had a nice conversation about it afterwards in which she explained her position and Carlos seemed to understand and sympathize and smile and nod. But he still gave the warning. You can't take it back. She's been playing long enough to know that. The warning was there. At that point, it was all out of Carlos' hands. The racket abuse was clear. There's no judgement on that. After the racket abuse, she let him have it. Twice. Once at the point penalty and again on the changeover. He took it, as he should have. And he took a lot. Then she crossed the line. Calling an umpire a thief is accusing them of being partial and attacking their integrity. That's a very clear line that you do not cross. I've taken a lot of crap from players of the years because I know that emotions are high and I know that they're the ones out there competing. What I have never taken and will never take is being accused of cheating, partiality or having my integrity questioned.

While the code violation for coaching might not have been the correct call, it was a warning, no different than a time violation warning. Serena should have put it aside and just played tennis. Her actions and her actions alone resulted in the rest of the fireworks that we saw today.
I don't think there will be a better take than this one. I personally felt like the first code violation was legitimate, and we don't know if there were any soft warnings for Serena before that point (at least, I don't know that). But I can see how one would disagree. After that, it was all on her, and it was obvious that she made sure every word she said was picked up by the mics.

I fear this will lead to an unnecessary rule change or two. I can see coaching being allowed soon, or at least the US Open adopting the WTA rule for on-court coaching visits, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just outright get rid of the ban on coaching altogether.
 
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The amount of attention this match got has been insane. If anything, it's proof of the adage "all publicity is good publicity." If Twitter is any indication, so many people who aren't generally into tennis watched this, mostly to see Serena. The fact that Carlos inserted himself into the match the way he did is another example of tennis being unable to get out of its way, this time failing to capitalise on the once-in-a-generation star power of Serena. Critics should be wary. After Serena retires, it will be a very long time before women's tennis gets the cultural clout it has when Serena plays.
 
Totally disgusted by the butt kissing Serena ESPN crew and some in the stands by taking her side in that ugly meltdown. I personally believe Serena did that on purpose to try and rattle Osaka when she realized she could not win. She totally stole a precious moment from Osaka. I wish Serena would go away.
Agree 100%. I was furious about the way Osaka was treated by the mob, though Serena to her credit did come back to earth and was gracious to Naomi during the presentation (not without drama before that of course)
 
You claimed someone carrying citizenship paper is American. As some statesman said America is its ideals, culture and values.
It's not counted using some paper.
Of course, you are not likely to get it with your paper based American legal presence.
Good. NY has Americans. NY has culture. NY has values. I do not like or agree with many of these values, but, it is America, and I will defend their right to be different from me. I am no more American than New Yorkers. I think it is arrogant to rate how American a place is....within America.
 
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I just caught the replay on tennis channel and you know what's really funny? Literally 5-6 minutes before Serena went on her idiotic rants, Mary-Joe Fernandez was commentating that 'Serena now has 2 code violations so she has to be very careful and keep her temper in check'. It's common sense to muzzle yourself when you have 2 code violations. Incredible how Serena has been painted as some victim by her heretics (and there are a lot...scarily enough).
 
D

Deleted member 754093

Guest
I don't think there will be a better take than this one. I personally felt like the first code violation was legitimate, and we don't know if there were any soft warnings for Serena before that point (at least, I don't know that). But I can see how one would disagree. After that, it was all on her, and it was obvious that she made sure every word she said was picked up by the mics. There are two things that concern me about it though:

One, on ESPN they said the blonde woman who walked out with the referee was Serena's agent. If that's true, to me that's a huge problem (looked it up, and indeed it was her agent). I cannot imagine another player being allowed to have a personal representative walk onto the court for any reason, let alone a situation like that. It was briefly mentioned on the broadcast and that was it. I get Serena's stature in the sport, but nobody should be given special privileges like that.

Two, I fear this will lead to an unnecessary rule change or two. I can see coaching being allowed soon, or at least the US Open adopting the WTA rule for on-court coaching visits, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just outright get rid of the ban on coaching altogether.
I assumed that the blonde women was part of the tournament staff. Despicable that her own agent would be allowed access to the chair ump like that. Really doesn't help the USTA in their quest to appear impartial (that and the myriad Serena commercials and fellating we've seen over the past two weeks has made that clear)
 
I'm not telling you, that you have no idea what you're talking about. We have two different views on what qualifies as something serious enough to be verbal abuse. And I was very professional in how I said it. I mean maybe you had heard a threat or swear that I hadn't, in which case I would have agreed with everyone.

I did hear her say you won't be the umpire at any of mine again. But other players have done this and not be given a warning. And I still don't believe this to be enough. Someone posted under one of the other headings a video showing Nadal going off on the umpire saying he's never umpire at one of his games again. He had two warnings already for time violations. And he didn't get one for abuse
Verbal abuse is not just when someone swears or threatens another person. It's also when you denounce or criticizes someone in public. Which she clearly did. Calling an umpire a liar and a thief is pretty bad in that regard given his position.
 
You claimed someone carrying citizenship paper is American. As some statesman said America is its ideals, culture and values.
It's not counted using some paper.
Of course, you are not likely to get it with your paper based American legal presence.
America's "ideals and values" happen to be diversity, multiculturalism and a safe haven for immigrants (symbol = Statue of Liberty). Anything else is actually profoundly anti-American
 
D

Deleted member 754093

Guest
Ok. I have no idea what that has to do with this discussion but, ok.
Sports have different tolerance limits in terms of what refs will put up with. Hockey refs allow fights before diffusing the situation, but even in those there is an understood code of conduct. Tennis is not at all like that
 
I think the umpire could have tried to ask Serena to calm down, or he would have to give her a game violation. I suppose we can argue she should already know that, but when you're in the heat of the moment it's easy to forget.
To me, that would have escalated the situation faster, and Ramos being somewhat silent and quietly accepting a lot of what she said in the first changeover was a way to let her speak her mind and try and calm her down.

After a heated discussion, players generally do cool down on their own during the next game, such that even if they continue complaining in the next change over the situation has been somewhat de-escalated already. It was not the case today, maybe the crowd booing kept Serena on fire, maybe he could have talked more to her, but silence is a viable strategy here as well.
 
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Deleted member 754093

Guest
"usually" eh. Alrighty then.
Have you watched sports? A player gets heated and the coach pulls him out and chastises him. A player goes after a ref or another player and his teammates hold him back. Refs almost always walk away
 
I just caught the replay on tennis channel and you know what's really funny? Literally 5-6 minutes before Serena went on her idiotic rants, Mary-Joe Fernandez was commentating that 'Serena now has 2 code violations so she has to be very careful and keep her temper in check'. It's common sense to muzzle yourself when you have 2 code violations. Incredible how Serena has been painted as some victim by her heretics (and there are a lot...scarily enough).
She knew she’d lose and wanted to create an alternative reason for that loss for her fans by whining at the umpire


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I don't think there will be a better take than this one. I personally felt like the first code violation was legitimate, and we don't know if there were any soft warnings for Serena before that point (at least, I don't know that). But I can see how one would disagree. After that, it was all on her, and it was obvious that she made sure every word she said was picked up by the mics. There are two things that concern me about it though:

One, on ESPN they said the blonde woman who walked out with the referee was Serena's agent. If that's true, to me that's a huge problem (looked it up, and indeed it was her agent). I cannot imagine another player being allowed to have a personal representative walk onto the court for any reason, let alone a situation like that. It was briefly mentioned on the broadcast and that was it. I get Serena's stature in the sport, but nobody should be given special privileges like that.

Two, I fear this will lead to an unnecessary rule change or two. I can see coaching being allowed soon, or at least the US Open adopting the WTA rule for on-court coaching visits, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just outright get rid of the ban on coaching altogether.
the blonde woman who walked on court was NOT Serena's agent and ESPN did not say it was.
 
I was satirizing the other poster. I agree with you. Read above for my other posts. Clearly very few of the American liberals dubbed “SJW” are marxists of any sort, Frankfurt school or otherwise.
American liberals are anything but real liberals, liberal in the classical meaning was someone who advocated freddom, individuality, equality before the law, free trade etc.
American " liberals" follow collective ideologies and actively oppose freedom of speech and and free market.

Im not surprised to see your radical left standpoints if you work at the university, universities combined with hollywood and the media are hotbeds of radical leftist ideas.
 
Our culture no longer embraces the concept of personal responsibility.
Serena acted like a spoiled entitled brat when caught with her hand in the cookie jar. Then instead of acting nobly with grace and class she set new lows in unsportsmanlike behavior.
The bottom line is that the whole incident was created by her behavior which sanctioned others to decide her fate.
You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes!
If my son acted like that I’d pull his ass off the court.

If my son had a daughter, I’d totally excuse everything and anything.
 
Truly shocking moment when the champion is disconsolate and the "loser" is basking in adulation. She's done this before with Kim Clijsters, and what does it say about the "Nu York" crowds. Ramos just followed the rules to the T. You can argue about him being a bit clerical, but Serena had no business calling him names and then arguing with the "mother" and then even worse, the gender card into this, which was totally irrelevant. Its shocking that for someone who has won 20+ Grand Slam titles and is universally acknowledged as the greatest player in the women's game, there is total absence of a philosophical attitude and a quiet demeanour that should first reflect on her poor performance in set-1 instead of raving and ranting.
If she doesn't play at the US Open next year, she won't be missed.
Great post. That's why I root for Federer, even though he has far many grand slams, he is humble and great role model. That's someone I would root for to get historic records.
 
Ramos for King!!!

He was WAY more tolerant than I would have been. Serena's mistake was to "end" the debate with her demand that Ramos not talk to her.

He didn't. But Serena wouldn't leave it alone and lit into him again ... and again.

I have never seen someone play so many Victim Cards like she did. "I have a daughter!" (So what?) "So many men get away with much worse!" (No they don't. Most of them are smart enough to avoid the Game Penalty.) "Because I'm a woman...!" (No. It's because you're classless, Serena.)
 

Bartelby

Talk Tennis Guru
Does over-generalisation remind you of certain English lessions?

Our culture no longer embraces the concept of personal responsibility.
Serena acted like a spoiled entitled brat when caught with her hand in the cookie jar. Then instead of acting nobly with grace and class she set new lows in unsportsmanlike behavior.
The bottom line is that the whole incident was created by her behavior which sanctioned others to decide her fate.
You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes!
If my son acted like that I’d pull his ass off the court.
 
Ramos for King!!!

He was WAY more tolerant than I would have been. Serena's mistake was to "end" the debate with her demand that Ramos not talk to her.

He didn't. But Serena wouldn't leave it alone and lit into him again ... and again.

I have never seen someone play so many Victim Cards like she did. "I have a daughter!" (So what?) "So many men get away with much worse!" (No they don't. Most of them are smart enough to avoid the Game Penalty.) "Because I'm a woman...!" (No. It's because you're classless, Serena.)
“This happens to me every year”
 
Officials should allow the excitement to be about the tennis, and not about themselves, IMO.

Years ago when a foot fault was called on Serena, that was ridiculous. The point penalty was ok, but not the game penalty. Let that one go. People want to see the match determined by tennis, not by an official who thinks he's the star.
 
Mohammed Lahyani got all kinds of crap for dutch uncling kyrigos when he was tanking, now Ramos is supposed to be serena's shrink--calm her down--maybe give her a cranial-sacral treatment on court. her highness likes to degrade the little people like chair umps and linespeople who make a few bucks for facilitating her matches while her highness makes millions for losing and from nike--a profound example of income ineqaulity. Her fine will be made into another nike commercial like her previous roid rage was against the diminutive Asian lady she threatened to shove a ball down her throat. $92,000 a pitance for all the free publicity--very fitting they had her on a shrink's couch--her current stunt was probably staged as a tie-in for nike's craperdick ad campaign--another genius media move by madison ave.
 
One thing I'm confused about: isn't coaching legal for women's tennis? Could have sworn it was
Only when they say it is. Select wta events. When mikes are hot, and the coach trots out to the bench. So embarrassing. I want to empower women. Not tell them they need coaching to make their matxhes more interesting.
You know what is interesting? Great quality tennis.

Well done, Osaka!
 

Bartelby

Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, Ramos is indeed required to manage the talent and de-escalate situations so maybe he needs another day job?

Mohammed Lahyani got all kinds of crap for dutch uncling kyrigos when he was tanking, now Ramos is supposed to be serena's shrink--calm her down--maybe give her a cranial-sacral treatment on court. her highness likes to degrade the little people like chair umps and linespeople who make a few bucks for facilitating her matches while her highness makes millions for losing and from nike--a profound example of income ineqaulity. Her fine will be made into another nike commercial like her previous roid rage was against the diminutive Asian lady she threatened to shove a ball down her throat. $92,000 a pitance for all the free publicity--very fitting they had her on a shrink's couch--her current stunt was probably staged as a tie-in for nike's craperdick ad campaign--another genius media move by madison ave.
 
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