How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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comeback

Hall of Fame
Another way to look at it; a kid curses at his teacher in class..The 1st teacher sends him straight to the Principal's office..The 2nd teacher laughs it off, then uses some reverse psychology to get the kid on his side..Neither teacher is wrong...
I know it's not an exact replica of the Serena incident but you get what i mean:)
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
I disgaree with the umpire being thin skinned. It wasn't just the thief comment that made her receive the violation i think. It was also the constant demanding of an apology, saying he will never umpire her matches. It may not be abuse

I disagree with the umpire being wrong. He was well within the rules handing out the penalty
I'd agree with you but the rules are rarely applied judiciously.
 

citybert

Hall of Fame
Nadal doing the exact same thing with 2 prior violations berates Bernardes and says that he will never coach one of his matches again.

Doesn't receive a game penalty or even a penalty taken away from him
Why not. He's an official is he not?

Who's supposed to enforce the rules.. or so I've been told.
Ramos enforced the rule its his collegues that are letting others get away with it and not following the rules. They all make him look bad here.
 
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Bartelby

Bionic Poster
'Victim cards' is a term straight out of 'political discourse', and politics is supposedly banned around here.

Ramos for King!!!

He was WAY more tolerant than I would have been. Serena's mistake was to "end" the debate with her demand that Ramos not talk to her.

He didn't. But Serena wouldn't leave it alone and lit into him again ... and again.

I have never seen someone play so many Victim Cards like she did. "I have a daughter!" (So what?) "So many men get away with much worse!" (No they don't. Most of them are smart enough to avoid the Game Penalty.) "Because I'm a woman...!" (No. It's because you're classless, Serena.)
 

Steady Eddy

Legend
In games like baseball, you can throw a star player out of the game, but the game gets to go on.

In tennis, defaulting a player, ends the match, and usually no one wants that. Giving away a game is too large a penalty, and it's not fair to Serena, the fans, and even Osaka. I don't care what the letter of the law is. A good official knows how to keep the action going without getting out of control.
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
Oh, the memories are so short.

I seem to remember Andy Roddick berating lines people over calls. And I mean yelling at a lines person about whether they know what they're doing or should be there et cetera. Basically being a huge bully. That was one reason I never liked the guy.

Code violation? Nope. Roddick got away with a huge amount. So you have a man who is a crowd favorite and a woman who was a crowd favorite, and one gets a code violation and one doesn't.

it seems quite obvious and blatant to me. John Mcenroe to this day makes a career out of how horrible and insulting he was to officials. That was a long time ago, but it is not like anyone has decided to banish him from the sport. Instead it is his brand and he is celebrated for it.

You're right about Roddick and Mac, though I feel like umpires are tougher in the last few years.

If you think it's a sexism thing though, are there any other examples of other female players getting treated more harshly by the same umpire who has let men off with similar/worse? You can't just point to Serena and say that proves it's sexism. Maybe it's racism. Or maybe they just don't like Serena because she's unpleasant and umpires are just tired of Serena's entitled attitude and general aggressive behavior. I mean maybe the problem is not her race or her sex, but just HER
 
I agree with you that the beliefs of contemporary American liberals are different from those of classical liberals (though I would still say that contemporary American liberals are pretty far from being Marxists). And I agree that many professors and journalists are left-wing (though I would say mildly left, rather than radically left). I don't know enough about Hollywood to judge.

Anyway, on that pleasant point of agreement, why don't we take @Simon_the_furry's advice and discuss tennis instead? Who do you want to win tomorrow?

American liberals are anything but real liberals, liberal in the classical meaning was someone who advocated freddom, individuality, equality before the law, free trade etc.
American " liberals" follow collective ideologies and actively oppose freedom of speech and and free market.

Im not surprised to see your radical left standpoints if you work at the university, universities combined with hollywood and the media are hotbeds of radical leftist ideas.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
He was certainly on the right track and indeed even critics of Lahyani mainly suggested he should have simply not got down from his chair!

OK, so Mohammed Lahyani was right then in "chatting" with kyrigos while he was tanking--it worked--the brat came back to win.
 

FD3S

Hall of Fame
Yep. 100% its coming.

Quoted for username.
I had a '92 fd3s. My friend just blew the rear rotor in his bridgeported single turbo modded beast of a thing.

If i win the lotto I'm getting another one, gunmetal grey, no rear wing, gold mazdaspeeds.
I like the way you think :D I'm sorry to hear about your friend's, but from the sounds of it that FD had one hell of a life! Hopefully he plans to fix it up, and good call on the single turbo! As much as I love the car, that stock twin turbo setup was a vacuum hosed nightmare until you had some wrench time under the hood and could really figure out what you were doing, and unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how mechanically inclined you are) with Wankels that's a prerequisite for relatively painfree ownership, even the older FB's and FC's.

You're right about Roddick and Mac, though I feel like umpires are tougher in the last few years.

If you think it's a sexism thing though, are there any other examples of other female players getting treated more harshly by the same umpire who has let men off with similar/worse? You can't just point to Serena and say that proves it's sexism. Maybe umpires are just tired of Serena's entitled attitude and general aggressive behavior
Cindy should note that Roddick's usual MO when he was being a tool was to be a tiny bit snide a lot of the time or have one massive explosion of wise-assery and pipe down for the rest of the match once his point was made (misguided or not), regardless if a warning was given. Rarely if ever did he carry on to the extent that Serena did today, and you know what bears that out? The fact that he didn't get handed game penalties!
 

Steffi-forever

Professional
Officials should allow the excitement to be about the tennis, and not about themselves, IMO.

Years ago when a foot fault was called on Serena, that was ridiculous. The point penalty was ok, but not the game penalty. Let that one go. People want to see the match determined by tennis, not by an official who thinks he's the star.
The point penalty happened at 15-40. So game set match Clijsters.
 

TennisDawg

Hall of Fame
So Serena is actually insulting Osaka by calling Ramos a sexist because Osaka was the person who took advantage of the situation. By definition of "sexism" Serena is calling Osaka a man here.
Lol, in 2009 Serena was getting pummeled by Clijsters. She went ballistic towards a female umpire and nearly postal towards an Asian line judge for calling a footfault. So, she was being a sexist and she must not like Asians. This rant about fighting for equality and women’s rights, mothers is like irrelevant to a tennis match.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I assumed that the blonde women was part of the tournament staff. Despicable that her own agent would be allowed access to the chair ump like that. Really doesn't help the USTA in their quest to appear impartial (that and the myriad Serena commercials and fellating we've seen over the past two weeks has made that clear)
I don’t think that blonde lady was Serena’s agent. I have seen her with the tournament director before. Serena’s agent is thinner and more chic, last time I saw her.

Fake news.
 

MasterZeb

Hall of Fame
I'd agree with you but the rules are rarely applied judiciously.
that’s the thing though. The rules are very rarely applied, but we shouldn’t be angry at the umpire when they actually are applied. We should instead be complaining why aren’t the rules applied in all the other instances and by other umpires. Carlos did a good job in my personal opinion and others should follow suit
 

Rhino

Legend
The same way when my wife cries and blames me/someone for making her cry and I say: I didn't make you cry, you made yourself cry.
I don't know how she does it. I can't make myself cry.

I can think of Federer losing or retiring. Or Serena winning. Still nothing.
 

insideguy

Legend
I don't think there will be a better take than this one. I personally felt like the first code violation was legitimate, and we don't know if there were any soft warnings for Serena before that point (at least, I don't know that). But I can see how one would disagree. After that, it was all on her, and it was obvious that she made sure every word she said was picked up by the mics. There are two things that concern me about it though:

One, on ESPN they said the blonde woman who walked out with the referee was Serena's agent. If that's true, to me that's a huge problem (looked it up, and indeed it was her agent). I cannot imagine another player being allowed to have a personal representative walk onto the court for any reason, let alone a situation like that. It was briefly mentioned on the broadcast and that was it. I get Serena's stature in the sport, but nobody should be given special privileges like that.

Two, I fear this will lead to an unnecessary rule change or two. I can see coaching being allowed soon, or at least the US Open adopting the WTA rule for on-court coaching visits, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just outright get rid of the ban on coaching altogether.
Maybe I am just way to logical. But like many other sports just kick the coach out or don't have the coach close you avoid all these problems. If a coach can't coach, then he should not be there and if he is there and screws up give him the punishment not the player. Tennis is weird.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
If rules were strictly enforced there would, for example, be no shot clock. There is always room for judgement and Ramos showed poor judgement.

The umpire was right and enforced the rules. The sad part is that the fans cheered Serena at the trophy celebration instead of booing her and letting her know they are sick of her crap. The only way the spoiled brat will learn to behave is when the fans turn on her and she realizes nobody is on her side.
 

oldmanfan

Legend
The worst part of it for me was that Naomi Osaka played brilliantly. She consistently outplayed Serena and earned that victory 100%. The comments made by the head of the USTA were horrible. She didn't even congratulate or acknowledge Osaka's victory. She should resign. That's unprofessional. The booing from the fans was disgusting as well. Naomi didn't deserve that.
WTF?! These two things happened?! I saw a clip and heard the boos. They were directed at Naomi? WHAT!? She did nothing wrong! WTF!! :eek::mad:
 

citybert

Hall of Fame
Patrick was attempting to coach Serena, probably deserved a warning. Patrick was wrong.

Serena over-reacted and breaking her racket was beneath her as was her temper tantrum after she received the penalty. Serena was wrong.

The umpire went over-the-top with the game penalty because Serena called him a thief. If you're that thin-skinned you have no right to be an umpire and much worse is said to umpires every day without any repercussions. Umpire was wrong.

Serena calling this sexism, is harmful to women. It minimizes what "sexism" actually is. There were two women on that court and for Serena to claim "sexism" is illogical and stupid. Serena was wrong.

The US Open fans that booed Osaka are idiots. Osaka played a brilliant game, she is a big part of the future of Women's tennis and she deserved cheers and a standing ovation. US Open fans were wrong.
Sexism comment was that men do the same(yell at umps and coach)and are allowed to get away with it and not get a penalty. Serena is right and I agree with her. However just because others do it and get away with it doesnt mean you should too or expect to. I am team Serena but she loses this argument. Why stoop to the level of the men if true. She is being held to a higher standard here. If she was being held to a lower standard than she should be held to that higher standard. But I know she is equating this with respect and I think that maybe flawed as well.

Also you missed all other umps not named Ramos who let things slide and dont endorce rules and made him look bad.
 
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insideguy

Legend
Uh, no. You do it. You're the one that's all "usually" and "almost". I'm going to guess - since those words have meaning - that that means not 100% of the time.
Really? That happens daily in pro sports. Watch a average soccer or baseball game. Different umpires, or refs or officials have different latitude we all know this come on.
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
Accurate. For the first two. The last one, the official has to know his role. He absolutely altered the course of the match with the warning for coaching. She didn’t drop any four letter words on him and still got the verbal abuse penalty. That’s weak.
I appreciate what you're saying here, but seeing that display on TV and not in person maybe creates some insulation for us. When it's on TV in some far away place, it's sort of a show, but when it happens up close and personal in real time, it's ugly and offensive.

I've been coaching high school teams for several years and it's pretty much the case that we need to "be the adults" at the matches when things get snippy among our players. At larger tournaments or some post-season playoffs, we often have a roving official on site, but not through the regular season action.

The idea of any kids in our league displaying anything near that pathetic tantrum that went down today in New York would earn a match default along with who-knows-what measure of supplementary discipline in nothing more than a heartbeat. No question.

So are the people competing at the very top of the game to be held to some pitiful standard that's miles below what's applied to a rinky-dink high school league? Carlos was the adult today. Maybe his ruling only seemed a little weak because we don't see it enough?
 
D

Deleted member 754093

Guest
I don’t think that blonde lady was Serena’s agent. I have seen her with the tournament director before. Serena’s agent is thinner and more chic, last time I saw her.

Fake news.
I have fallen for fake news then
 
The whole point of having line judges and ump is to allow the players to let their racquets do the talking. It’s in the nature of the sport, which is quite unlike many / most other sports. And tennis does take a person right inside their own head, like no other.

Serena came to this match with very strong preconceptions of its outcome, and consequently couldn’t fathom a different reality. A part of her felt existentially threatened by that, so she just took herself out of that situation by throwing a tantrum. It is no different from what little kids do when they are trying to get out of some situations / tasks.

Serena needs to grow up,.. hope it’s not too late for her.
 
D

Deleted member 754093

Guest
Uh, no. You do it. You're the one that's all "usually" and "almost". I'm going to guess - since those words have meaning - that that means not 100% of the time.
You made the claim that refs in other sports diffuse the situation. That’s on you to prove, not on me to disprove
 

citybert

Hall of Fame
Seriosly he did nothing wrong. I hope ATP and officials should back him and confirm that he did a great job. No it isnt his job to calm down hysteric Serena.(Some people critical of Ramos because of that including Mats Wilander)Serena needs threapy.
What about all of his fellow umpires who let him down and let all the other players slide. His colleagues really made him look bad here because they set a bad precendent
 

insideguy

Legend
It wasn't?
Great! :)
I know NYC fans get a lot of crap. They were just not happy with how the whole thing went down. I don't think they didn't like Osaka at all. She was unfortunate to be in this situation but the fans know she didn't have anything to do with anything. They just wanted a tennis match to be decided by tennis. One way or the other.
 

kaiotic

Rookie
Yeah. Exactly. Don't you know that people with daughters never cheat. It's just not physically possible once you've given birth to a girl.

AND she's a woman too. So literally you better not accuse her of anything ever because you know what that makes you don't you? A sexist, racist thief!
people who are pre-destined to have daughters will never cheat. but having sons, on the other hand...
i have a son, and i have never cheated, except for lying to my wife about the number of chocolate cookies i had a few nights ago while watching the Nadal-Thiem match.

wait, does owning Debbie Does Dallas considered cheating?
 
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