How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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FedLIKEnot

Professional
Possibly she's convinced herself that it's true, but if she has, she's deluded. This never happens to anyone but her.
Her points for the sexism is that men do far worse. And if you watch the video she doesn’t curse. Is of course angry but is venting from her chair and unless you hear her she isn’t even really showing him up. And again we have seen men curse at umpires and say for worse.


 

PrinceMoron

Legend
Nike should call that a me-me not a tu-tu. Just no concern for anyone else

Just Do It quite appropriate for someone who should take 10 before opening her mouth
 

ak24alive

Legend
The bold needs to be taken in context. Serena was penalized a game for '3rd violation', NOT bc she called the Ump a thief. The problem? Calling the Ump a thief was the aforementioned '3rd violation'. The Ump didn't use any 'discretion' on the penalty. It was by the books, full stop.
This is what everyone need to understand.
It was the third code violation. He couldn't have just left it at a warning even if he wanted to.
3 violations == game penalty.
No men. No women. No nothing. Just the rules.
No one can dispute the second and third code violations. Can't even dispute the first one imo. But people are talking about everyone getting on court coaching but the umpire only calling out Serena in a GS Final.
To them I say equality.
To the rule book all players are equal and all matches are equal.
And I thought we all believed in equality.
But is the equality only limited to the men and women thing?
 
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Tennisgods

Hall of Fame
Bottom line men do this stuff too I watched the match and have watched her matches in the past and her competitive outbursts mirror men moreso than women. There is nothing wrong with that. I think if I looked hard enough I could find three BETTER examples of bad behavior than Serena’s. Was she on thin ice? without a doubt. She should’ve know that. However she isn’t wrong men do it with far more regularly and not much comes come of it.

In the final it’s time to have even thicker skin. And all those touting the rule book thisnand rule book that ... if Novak were to do the exact same thing tomorrow is he given a game penalty? I am just gonna leave that there to sit. Cause I am willing to bet you make it apples and apples he says verbatim what she says does exactly what Serena does he doesn’t get the penalty.
I reckon this particular umpire would have given a man a code violation for that rant. Absolutely. Can’t believe how willing some people are to follow Serena’s narrative.
 

reaper

Legend
Her points for the sexism is that men do far worse. And if you watch the video she doesn’t curse. Is of course angry but is venting from her chair and unless you hear her she isn’t even really showing him up. And again we have seen men curse at umpires and say for worse.


The game penalty was for accusing the umpire of cheating. If he was cheating Williams should pursue the matter through official channels. If he wasn't cheating the game penalty for making the accusation is correct. For Williams it's only one game. For an umpire to not be impartial is career ending.
 
Both were pretty bad. Serena should have been defaulted too. She didn't tell anybody to bleep their mother but her behaviour was very threatening and intimidating. Calling the umpire a thief was way over line and can't be tolerated.
 

Mike Sams

G.O.A.T.
Serena Williams looks like she could lose her mind and physically kill a person while John McEnroe was just a skinny weakling with a big mouth. Nobody was intimidated by McEnroe. LOL
 

MrFlip

Semi-Pro
Some people on here are really thick

One person was complaining about being penalised

The other was complaining about penalised because of their gender.

You work out which person is less of a narcissist.
 

FedLIKEnot

Professional
The rules don’t magically stop existing just because it’s the finals. Those violations were 100% valid. End of story.
I havnt once said there weren’t the rules to the letter. What I will say is there isn’t consistent follow through on them. And it seems like a bad choice at that time in the that match to ding for a finer waiver up, and to than to the rant. But again I’m not arguing that it’s a rule just that men do worse at time but cause she is a women it seems so jarring.

I reckon this particular umpire would have given a man a code violation for that rant. Absolutely. Can’t believe how willing some people are to follow Serena’s narrative.
I am not willing to follow anything it’s my thoughts in regarding what I saw. Again I may be wrong I am allowing for that but watching the video it’s easier to see her perspective that she felt robbed and on that stage. That said you’re naive if you think men truely haven’t done worse or that if that was Rafa it would’ve gone the same way. Her peers sort of validate that to some point.
 

Soianka

Hall of Fame
At U.S. Open, power of Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka is overshadowed by an umpire’s power play
Chair umpire Carlos Ramos managed to rob not one but two players in the women’s U.S. Open final. Nobody has ever seen anything like it: An umpire so wrecked a big occasion that both players, Naomi Osaka and Serena Williams alike, wound up distraught with tears streaming down their faces during the trophy presentation and an incensed crowd screamed boos at the court. Ramos took what began as a minor infraction and turned it into one of the nastiest and most emotional controversies in the history of tennis, all because he couldn’t take a woman speaking sharply to him.

Williams abused her racket, but Ramos did something far uglier: He abused his authority. Champions get heated — it’s their nature to burn. All good umpires in every sport understand that the heart of their job is to help temper the moment, to turn the dial down, not up, and to be quiet stewards of the event rather than to let their own temper play a role in determining the outcome. Instead, Ramos made himself the chief player in the women’s final. He marred Osaka’s first Grand Slam title and one of Williams’s last bids for all-time greatness. Over what? A tone of voice. Male players have sworn and cursed at the top of their lungs, hurled and blasted their equipment into shards, and never been penalized as Williams was in the second set of the U.S. Open final.
“I just feel like the fact that I have to go through this is just an example for the next person that has emotions and that want to express themselves and wants to be a strong woman,” she said afterward.

It was pure pettiness from Ramos that started the ugly cascade in the first place, when he issued a warning over “coaching,” as if a signal from Patrick Mouratoglou in the grandstand has ever been the difference in a Serena Williams match. It was a technicality that could be called on any player in any match on any occasion and ludicrous in view of the power-on-power match that was taking place on the court between Williams and the 20-year-old Osaka. It was one more added stressor for Williams, still trying to come back from her maternity leave and fighting to regain her fitness and resume her pursuit of Margaret Court’s record of 24 Grand Slam singles titles. “I don’t cheat,” she told Ramos hotly.

When Williams, still seething, busted her racket over losing a crucial game, Ramos docked her a point. Breaking equipment is a violation, and because Ramos already had hit her with the coaching violation, it was a second offense and so ratcheted up the penalty.
The controversy should have ended there. At that moment, it was up to Ramos to de-escalate the situation, to stop inserting himself into the match and to let things play out on the court. In front of him were two players in a sweltering state, who were giving their everything, while he sat at a lordly height above them. Below him, Williams vented, “You stole a point from me. You’re a thief.”

There was absolutely nothing worthy of penalizing in the statement. It was pure vapor release. She said it in a tone of wrath, but it was compressed and controlled. All Ramos had to do was to continue to sit coolly above it, and Williams would have channeled herself back into the match. But he couldn’t take it. He wasn’t going to let a woman talk to him that way. A man, sure. Ramos has put up with worse from a man. At the French Open in 2017, Ramos leveled Rafael Nadal with a ticky-tacky penalty over a time delay, and Nadal told him he would see to it that Ramos never refereed one of his matches again.

But he wasn’t going to take it from a woman pointing a finger at him and speaking in a tone of aggression. So he gave Williams that third violation for “verbal abuse” and a whole game penalty, and now it was 5-3, and we will never know whether young Osaka really won the 2018 U.S. Open or had it handed to her by a man who was going to make Serena Williams feel his power. It was an offense far worse than any that Williams committed. Chris Evert spoke for the entire crowd and television audience when she said, “I’ve been in tennis a long time, and I’ve never seen anything like it.”
Competitive rage has long been Williams’s fuel, and it’s a situational personality. The whole world knows that about her, and so does Ramos. She has had instances where she ranted and deserved to be disciplined, but she has outlived all that. She has become a player of directed passion, done the admirable work of learning self-command and grown into one of the more courteous and generous champions in the game. If you doubted that, all you had to do was watch how she got a hold of herself once the match was over and how hard she tried to make it about Osaka.

Williams understood that she was the only person in the stadium who had the power to make that incensed crowd stop booing. And she did it beautifully. “Let’s make this the best moment we can,” she said.

The tumultuous emotions at the end of the match were complex and deep. Osaka didn’t want to be given anything and wept over the spoil. Williams was sickened by what had been taken from her and also palpably ill over her part in depriving a great new young player of her moment. The crowd was livid on behalf of both.

Ramos had rescued his ego and, in the act, taken something from Williams and Osaka that they can never get back. Perhaps the most important job of all for an umpire is to respect the ephemeral nature of the competitors and the contest. Osaka can never, ever recover this moment. It’s gone. Williams can never, ever recover this night. It’s gone. And so Williams was entirely right in calling him a “thief.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/tennis/at-us-open-power-of-serena-williams-and-naomi-osaka-is-overshadowed-by-an-umpires-power-play/2018/09/08/edbf46c8-b3b4-11e8-a20b-5f4f84429666_story.html?utm_term=.98232d9b62ac
 

FedLIKEnot

Professional
The game penalty was for accusing the umpire of cheating. If he was cheating Williams should pursue the matter through official channels. If he wasn't cheating the game penalty for making the accusation is correct. For Williams it's only one game. For an umpire to not be impartial is career ending.
Well watching the video it’s more about that she felt the coaching aspect was an incorrect assumption. And for a thumbs up that is so minute when there are far worse known coaching scenarios going on. And I don’t blame her for venting. She should’ve tapered it off and not been so adamnet for an apology she has to know he isn’t going to say sorry after the fact and in that moment.
 

Red Rick

Talk Tennis Guru
In terms of offense

Hittting umpire > threatening line judge > incest encouragement > Serena yesterday

But boy i have never seen someone so delusional
 

WhiteStripes

Semi-Pro
Seems fair and reasonable but I still think Novak or god forbid Nadal one Roger out of character or not would’ve never gotten that penalty. And I’m allowing for myself to be wrong cause I didn’t know that nuanced fact about the umpire but I can promise the backlash wouldn’t be this.
FWIW, Ramos did give Nole a code violation for verbal abuse pretty recently. Whether Nole's actions were more or less egregious than Serena's, I'll leave that up to the reader/viewer.
 

reaper

Legend
Well watching the video it’s more about that she felt the coaching aspect was an incorrect assumption. And for a thumbs up that is so minute when there are far worse known coaching scenarios going on. And I don’t blame her for venting. She should’ve tapered it off and not been so adamnet for an apology she has to know he isn’t going to say sorry after the fact andie in that moment.
I'm watching a replay of the match right now. The signal wasn't "thumbs up" it was a backwards and forwards motion with his arms to indicate either that Williams should go to the net more or that she should draw her opponent to net. There's no question it was a signal related to match strategy, something Serena's coach has subsequently confirmed . That makes the coaching violation correct and Serena's subsequent posturing on the matter somewhat hollow.
 
Her points for the sexism is that men do far worse. And if you watch the video she doesn’t curse. Is of course angry but is venting from her chair and unless you hear her she isn’t even really showing him up. And again we have seen men curse at umpires and say for worse.


You're delusional, she berated him, embarrassed him and badgered him in front of the world for an "apology" for doing his job. She did it before and will do it again. So much for championing the cause of the little people--like all liberals, they are the champions of the worker in the abstract--but in reality treat working people like dirt.
 

Tennisgods

Hall of Fame
I havnt once said there weren’t the rules to the letter. What I will say is there isn’t consistent follow through on them. And it seems like a bad choice at that time in the that match to ding for a finer waiver up, and to than to the rant. But again I’m not arguing that it’s a rule just that men do worse at time but cause she is a women it seems so jarring.



I am not willing to follow anything it’s my thoughts in regarding what I saw. Again I may be wrong I am allowing for that but watching the video it’s easier to see her perspective that she felt robbed and on that stage. That said you’re naive if you think men truely haven’t done worse or that if that was Rafa it would’ve gone the same way. Her peers sort of validate that to some point.
There’s a video out there of Djokovic clashing with this umpire, check it out.

And i’m not naive. Even if other players would get away with it, so what at this point? Her rant was disgusting and went on and on, not sure i’ve seen any of the top guys do something like that. Most have a pop then move on. Serena just would not stop.

Some men may have done worse and been penalised. Some may not have been. What’s that actually got to do with Serena’s behaviour?

If anything, reckon you’re naive for buying into Serena distracting from her own crap behaviour by bringing gender in to the debate.

What do you think of her behaviour? Was it ok in your book?
 

Tennisgods

Hall of Fame
Ramos also is one of the sport's few "gold badge" umpires, which is a distinction given only a handful of chair umpires based on extensive experience officiating major matches. According to tennis experts and former tennis officials, Ramos is one of the few umpires who isn't afraid to call a rules violation against elite players.

Assuming Serena never received a warning and point/game violations, would she managed to rally back from a set down and win the match? Or was Osaka was too good that day in which no umpire on the face of this planet would have changed the outcome?
In a word, no.
 
b.s.,serena's behavior goes way beyond anything even mac has done. Poor serena, a victim of the glass ceiling--net worth a measly $180 million--my heart bleeds for her.
 

reaper

Legend
Currently watching a replay of the match. It's 3-2 second set with Serena having just smashed her racquet having been broken back. A clear case where a point penalty should be applied...but they're on an ad break.
 

FedLIKEnot

Professional
You're delusional, she berated him, embarrassed him and badgered him in front of the world for an "apology" for doing his job. She did it before and will do it again. So much for championing the cause of the little people--like all liberals, they are the champions of the worker in the abstract--but in reality treat working people like dirt.
Kind of a reach to channel political ideology. Thank you for making your views known.

But look as I have said I am allowing for myself to be wrong and dammit if I am and wasting all our time. I’d much rather be arguing over Halep or Vika anyways. Haha, but look that is my measly opinion. I didn’t see it as blatant coaching like I said especially within the broader context that their are other individuals who do worse. And she the last few years has fancied herself as a role model and potential to your surprise is actually doing pretty good charity work. So I can see why she extrapolated it out in that manner. I myself think she went too far, so that’s clear. But and their is one, i again know that others have done worse and if that’s Rafa or Novak he likely just keep staring off into space....
 

PrinceMoron

Legend
The whole problem was that Serena could not get any spin on the ball, as she complained several times during the match.

String pattern is tight on that 104
Naomi was hitting very early and deep
Conditions were cooler

Why didn’t she just get some frames restrung and deal with it




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

FedLIKEnot

Professional
There’s a video out there of Djokovic clashing with this umpire, check it out.

And i’m not naive. Even if other players would get away with it, so what at this point? Her rant was disgusting and went on and on, not sure i’ve seen any of the top guys do something like that. Most have a pop then move on. Serena just would not stop.

Some men may have done worse and been penalised. Some may not have been. What’s that actually got to do with Serena’s behaviour?

If anything, reckon you’re naive for buying into Serena distracting from her own crap behaviour by bringing gender in to the debate.

What do you think of her behaviour? Was it ok in your book?
To me her behavior was indeed out of line and I havnt argued that in any of these threads I’m arguing in. However what I am saying is at that moment on that stage and with the match likely essentially over it didn’t need to have been called to the letter of the law. I feel in sport the nuance matters. Sometime very little sometimes a lot. And in this case it mattered entirely too much.
 
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