How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Well said. +1
Hemingway wrote that courage is grace under pressure.

Serena Williams' behavior today pretty much confirmed to me that she is a coward and a bully.

If I were a USTA member I would cancel my membership in response to the statement Katrina Adams released on behalf of the organization.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
Whatever you think of Serena and Naomi (and I adore Naomi), there is no doubt in my mind that the chair acted improperly.

I think there was gender bias at work. The first coaching violation? Deserved. The second violation? Deserved.

But I cannot begin to count the number of times men have sat in their chairs on changeovers and had heated discussions with umpires, and nothing whatever happens. But when it is Serena, it is a game penalty in the final. Insane. Her words were actually civil -- saying she deserved an apology, no profanity, no threats.

Need more proof?

In this same tournament, we had a chair umpire come out of his chair to basically coach Kirios in front of God and everyone. The proper response would have been to enforce the code of conduct, but no. Ump goes easy on the man, and USTA backs up the umpire.

By that standard, Ramos should have come out of his chair and talked to Serena, calm her nerves, tell her he wants to help her. Nope -- game penalty (when the tirade was over and he could have let it go) to put Serena's opponent a game away from the championship.

Congratulations to Naomi, but what happened today was rooted in disparate treatment and sexism.
How about accountability for ones own actions? Unless I’m missing something wasn’t her opponent also female?
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
Problems are in rules that are impossible to enforce as there are many gray areas (is it coaching if coach says "come on"; if a coach scratch his/her ear is it a signal?). I would allow any form of coaching until it does not interfere with opposition.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
I agree with this:
"It was a technicality that could be called on any player in any match on any occasion and ludicrous in view of the power-on-power match that was taking place on the court between Williams and the 20-year-old Osaka."
Ramos went out of his way to call the initial violation. I'm wagering not one person even thought about it until he made it an issue, and it's absolutely true that it goes on all the time and is usually not called.

The initial mistake was Ramos's, and the idea that he had to do it is absolute BS.

But what followed was an absolute fluster cluck. :(
 

LaZeR

Professional
During the disgraceful and embarrasing drama that Serena caused during the US Open final, do you think Serena's multiple outbursts of CRYING is MAINLY & MOSTLY due to:

1) EMBARRASSMENT ~ Serena realized her behavior, yelling, and verbiage was outlandishly childish & immature, that she's making a fool of herself, millions will see, and her tantrums will go down as the most embarrassing in the history of tennis right up there with McEnroe, OR,

2) GUILT ~ Serena realized it was OBVIOUS to miilions that her coach signalled instructions (on LIVE TV even the commentators said that after barely coming to net, Mouratoglou clearly gestured for Serena to do so, which she did, after which she won several points) and they got caught, she should have controlled herself, NOT smashed her racquet, NOR should she have inappropriately denigrated & threatened the umpire, etc, OR,

3) VICTIM ~ regarding things that Serena was yelling out like "I don't cheat", "men do things that are much worse", "I've never been treated fairly", she HONESTLY & TRULY felt that she was being treated unfairly and discriminated against.
 

Tennisgods

Hall of Fame
To me her behavior was indeed out of line and I havnt argued that in any of these threads I’m arguing in. However what I am saying is at that moment on that stage and with the match likely essentially over it didn’t need to have been called to the letter of the law. I feel in sport the nuance matters. Sometime very little sometimes a lot. And in this case it mattered entirely too much.
I feel totally differently. It was Serena that shamed tennis last night, not an umpire applying the rules. It’s funny; i’ve seen the term nuance used a few times. Not a term Serena seems familiar with. No nuance in the way she behaved.

I wonder if she’ll learn anything from this? Will she apologise to the umpire, as she surely should?

The issue here is her behaviour. Let’s not allow her to make it about gender, or “thieving umpires”, or apologies she thinks she deserves for her coach trying to cheat.
 
O

OhYes

Guest
I think suggestions that Patrick Mo gave her from stands, made her competitive again in the beginning of 2nd set, Osaka was struggling to keep the pace.
Now we all know Osaka turned around 2nd set later BUT ONLY BCS COACHING STOPPED and Serena let her ego come out just bcs of 1 point. If Ramos didn't intervene, Serena could come on top (seen it million times with 1 set deficit from her).
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Problems are in rules that are impossible to enforce. I would allow any form of coaching until it does not interfere with opposition.
In fact, the only reason for disallowing such coaching is that it could be argued that more successful players have better coaching, and young challengers might not even have one.

But the same is true of physios and a ton of other privileges that favor successful veterans.

What irritates me most is the inconsistency of the way rules are applied, which is set up with rules that are unenforceable or at least normally unenforced.

We all know that there is communication between boxes and players, and we all see players talking to their boxes all the time. Does anyone think that signals can't be invented to communicate, or that it is not being done?
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
In fact, the only reason for disallowing such coaching is that it could be argued that more successful players have better coaching, and young challengers might not even have one.

But the same is true of physios and a ton of other privileges that favor successful veterans.

What irritates me most is the inconsistency of the way rules are applied, which is set up with rules that are unenforceable or at least normally unenforced.

We all know that there is communication between boxes and players, and we all see players talking to their boxes all the time. Does anyone think that signals can't be invented to communicate, or that it is not being done?
Agree 100%. This put Referees in difficult position. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Ramos is here a scapegoat.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Patrick was attempting to coach Serena, probably deserved a warning. Patrick was wrong.

Serena over-reacted and breaking her racket was beneath her as was her temper tantrum after she received the penalty. Serena was wrong.

The umpire went over-the-top with the game penalty because Serena called him a thief. If you're that thin-skinned you have no right to be an umpire and much worse is said to umpires every day without any repercussions. Umpire was wrong.

Serena calling this sexism, is harmful to women. It minimizes what "sexism" actually is. There were two women on that court and for Serena to claim "sexism" is illogical and stupid. Serena was wrong.

The US Open fans that booed Osaka are idiots. Osaka played a brilliant game, she is a big part of the future of Women's tennis and she deserved cheers and a standing ovation. US Open fans were wrong.
That is the best post I've seen about the matter.

It was simply one huge, hot, stinking mess, and the ultimate loser is tennis.
 

Azure

G.O.A.T.
OP, stop posting so much. Already a 1000+ posts in just a few weeks. I don't need to see Nadal's tight ass 50 times a day.
How can you not like symmetricity, geometric perfect shapes and well rounded bums? It's art....nature's
 

Tennisgods

Hall of Fame
Her points for the sexism is that men do far worse. And if you watch the video she doesn’t curse. Is of course angry but is venting from her chair and unless you hear her she isn’t even really showing him up. And again we have seen men curse at umpires and say for worse.


2 wrongs wouldn’t make a right though would they. Let’s forget about what some ******* guys do sometimes, this is about Serena owning her crap behaviour.
 

Tennease

Legend
Serena Williams's US Open final breakdown blow-by-blow
ANALYSIS BY JON HEALYUPDATED ABOUT 4 HOURS AGO
Email Facebook Twitter WhatsApp
VIDEO 0:36

The trio of code violations that cost Serena Williams a game.

ABC NEWS
The US Open final devolved into farce after Serena Williams took odds with the umpire's treatment of her.

It took sheen away from 20-year-old Naomi Osaka beating her idol to claim hers and Japan's first major title, but there were a lot of moving parts.

So, what the hell happened?

First violation: Coaching (warning)



PHOTO Williams' response to the initial coaching violation was relatively tame compared to what happened next.
AP: ANDRES KUDACKI

Having already lost the first set 6-2, Williams was warned for receiving coaching from her box after the first game of the second set.

When can't a coach coach?[/paste:font]
There are rules around on-court coaching in professional tennis, but they're often broken without any penalty.

Coach Patrick Mouratoglou later admitted to ESPN he "was 100 per cent coaching", but Williams was indignant, telling umpire Carlos Ramos that Mouratoglou had only given her a thumbs up and that was not some secret code.

"I know you don't know that and I understand why you thought that was coaching but I'm telling you it's not," she said.

"I don't cheat to win, I'd rather lose. I'm just letting you know."

Compared to what was to come, that was pretty chilled out.

Second violation: Racquet abuse (point penalty)



PHOTO Hard to argue against the violation for racquet abuse.
AP: JULIO CORTEZ

While leading 3-2 in the second set, Williams was surprised to hear she was starting the game down 15-0 after receiving a second code violation for smashing her racquet.

She had been docked a point by Ramos in accordance with the International Tennis Federation's penalty schedule, which says the first code violation is a warning and the second is a point penalty.

The same thing happened to her the during the 2009 US Open semifinal against Kim Clijsters, when she had been warned for smashing a racquet and then penalised a point (which happened to be match point) for threatening a lineswoman who foot-faulted her.

This time, Williams seemed confused as Ramos explained the situation.

"This is unbelievable. Every time I play here I have problems," she said.

"What? That's a warning. I didn't get coaching. I didn't get coaching. I didn't get coaching. You need to make an announcement that I didn't get coaching.

"I don't cheat. I didn't get coaching. How can you say that? You need to … you owe me an apology. You owe me an apology. I have NEVER cheated in my life!

"I have a daughter and I stand for what's right for her and I never cheated. You owe me an apology. You will never do another one of my matches!"

OK. Whoa. But it's probably over, right?

Third violation: Verbal abuse (game penalty)
Media player: "Space" to play, "M" to mute, "left" and "right" to seek.









VIDEO 1:18
This was Serena Williams's third major blow-up at the US Open in the past decade.

ABC NEWS
While Osaka was preparing to serve with a 4-3 lead, Williams resumed her attack on Ramos from her chair.

"I explained that [I wasn't getting coaching] to you and for you to attack my character … it's wrong. You're attacking my character. Yes, you are," she said.

"You owe me an apology. You will never, ever, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You are the liar.

"When are you going to give me my apology? You owe me an apology. Say it, say you're sorry."

No apology was forthcoming.

GIF:Serena Williams calls umpire Carlos Ramos "a thief"
"Well then don't talk to me. Don't talk to me," she said.

"You stole a point from me, you're a thief too."

As ridiculous as it sounds, this is when things got really ugly.

"Code violation. Verbal abuse. Game penalty, Mrs Williams," came the announcement from Ramos.

Williams laughed but she clearly wasn't seeing the funny side.


PHOTO Naomi Osaka did not know what to do with herself as Serena Williams erupted.
AP: ANDRES KUDACKI

"Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? Because I said you're a thief? Because you stole a point from me," she said.

"But I'm not a cheater. But I told you to apologise to me. This is out … Excuse me, I need the referee."

'Because I'm a woman, you're gonna take this away from me?'

PHOTO The full picture … Williams pleaded her case to WTA supervisor Donna Kelso (second from right).
AP: ANDRES KUDACKI

Enter tournament director Brian Earley and WTA supervisor Donna Kelso.

While Earley spoke to Ramos, Williams was almost in tears as she defended herself to Kelso.

"This is not right. This is not right. I mean, I called him a thief because he stole a point from me because I never cheated," she said.

"He said I was being coached and I wasn't being coached. That's not right. That is not right. You know me, you know my character and that's not right. This is not fair.

"This has happened to me too many times. This is not fair. This is not fair. To lose a game for saying that is not fair. It's really not."

Then to Earley.


PHOTO Brian Earley has been US Open director for 39 years, but even he seemed a little stunned.
AP: ADAM HUNGER

"You know how many other men do things that are … much worse than that. This is not fair," she said.

"There's a lot of men out here that have said a lot of things and because they are men, that doesn't happen to them."

Earley explained that she knew the risk she was taking by abusing the umpire after having already received two violations.

"No, I don't know the risk because if I say a simple thing — a thief because he stole a point from me — that does not make … there are men out here that do a lot worse," she said.

"But because I'm a woman, because I'm a woman, you're gonna take this away from me? That is not right.

"You know it, and I know you can't admit it, but I know you know it's not right. I know you can't change it but I'm just saying that's not right.

"I get the rules, I get the rules but I'm just saying it's not right. And it happened to me at this tournament every single year that I play. It's just not fair. That's all I have to say. That's not fair."

Williams powered through her next service game, winning to love, before Osaka showed remarkable composure to serve out the match.

The fury bled into the crowd, which booed during the trophy presentation. Williams called for calm and put her arm around a distraught Osaka, but the damage was done.










VIDEO 1:16
Naomi Osaka could not enjoy her first major title the way she should have been able to.

ABC NEWS

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-...ka-beats-serena-williams-controversy/10218766
 
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cjs

Professional
Game penalty might have gone too far in such a match. Could have given another point penalty. But if it is in the books then it means many other umpires are too lenient with tolerating bad behaviour.
Wrong. Umpire has no choice. 1. Warning 2. Point 3. Game.
 

Zardoz7/12

Hall of Fame
This article shows how sport is being politicized, this isn't about politics, it's about an umpire doing his job. The pack mentality of some people shows how weak minded they are, people jump on this to push a Left/Right agenda, keep the BS out. So I could push the narrative that the New York crowd were being racist for booing Osaka and making her cry when that isn't the case.
 
Not surprising. The players know the truth, on court coaching happens all the time and goes unpunished yet Serena gets the warning/penalty in a slam final. Ludicrous. Men get away with far worse. Interesting hearing from the players perspective instead of some forum trolls.
You really want to play that card when there’s male tennis players like Kyrgios, Troicki and McEnroe? Mac is literally known for being an absolute roller coaster so you probably should shut up and stay quiet.
Great remarks.

Jeff Tarango could be added to the list as well.
 

anhedonia

New User
I haven't read all the comments on here but I'll give you my two cents. It wasn't sexism. Can people just please stop pulling that card? Her coach was clearly trying to tell her something, so instead of admitting it she denied it. It was caught on camera. Why deny it and call people liars? She broke her racquet. She then completely disrespected the umpire, went on again about her first code violation, and disrespected the referee and the people working there with her "princess" attitude. The "you owe me an apology" was so out of the place. She deserved the penalty. She ruined Naomi Oasaka's first GS victory. She pulled out that cr*p because she knew she was losing and she didn't want to face it. Instead, she decided to draw all the attention on herself. Like a selfish kid. She completely lost it emotionally because again, she realized she was going to lose. It's not the first time it's happened with Serena. That kind of behavior is unacceptable.

And I'm a woman. I don't think that was sexism at all. The way she spoke to everyone there was disrespectful. The umpire did his job and he was right.
 

Boom-Boom

Legend
- first threatening of death a poor lineswoman at the USO years ago

- strangely locking herself in her panic room when anti-doping knocks at her door (!) and later being revealed to have (legally) benefitted from « Therapeutic Use Exemptions » by the WTA

- now melting down in front of the whole world threatening and insulting Ramos, probably the best umpire on tour

what next???
 

MLM

Rookie
So I decided to sleep on the events of last night before coming to conclusions and basically I agree with you.

A warning for coaching was seemingly justified, I mean Patrick admitted it.

Serena made the decision to escalate the situation by smashing a racquet. Point penalty justified.

I don’t know everything Serena said to Ramos but the things I am aware of were not enough to justify another penalty. If more comes out I’ll be happy to re-evaluate.

I certainly don’t think there was any sexism involved, simply different umpires umpiring differently.
 
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PrinceMoron

Legend
Might actually use my Wimbledon Ladies Finals tickets next year.

Usually just watch the men knocking up on an outside court before the doubles final.

I did try and make it back to my seat for Venus Garbine second set but it was over by the time I got up the stairs.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Agree 100%. This put Referees in difficult position. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Ramos is here a scapegoat.
Yes. It is just like time violations, and that's probably the only thing the clock does. It stops disputes, and very effectively. When the clock says zero, only a complete ass is going to argue. The violations become 100% transparent.

So either use a clock, or let the players play without time violations, the only two choices.

I think the wise choice here would be to ignore hand signals and so on, and I doubt the make much difference.
 

reaper

Legend
I've got to say I was expecting to see something more dramatic to earn the game penalty. Whether there was more than shown on the coverage isn't clear. If it was simply for saying that the umpire stole a point from her (which is not the same as saying the umpire is corrupt) then the umpire should not have proceeded to a code violation at that point. There's a few unanswered questions. Serena's coach has admitted to coaching and the footage of him doing so has been produced. He also said Osaka was being coached throughout the match. If so, there should be some footage of it...
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Being accused of cheating in the heat of battle is not conducive to a calm reaction.

I suspect that two thirds of the people criticising Williams would have reacted similarly or worse.

I agree with this:

Ramos went out of his way to call the initial violation. I'm wagering not one person even thought about it until he made it an issue, and it's absolutely true that it goes on all the time and is usually not called.

The initial mistake was Ramos's, and the idea that he had to do it is absolute BS.

But what followed was an absolute fluster cluck. :(
 

Charleneriva

Hall of Fame
The US Open fans that booed Osaka are idiots. Osaka played a brilliant game, she is a big part of the future of Women's tennis and she deserved cheers and a standing ovation. US Open fans were wrong.
I like you miazzlady but the crowd booed the umpire, not Osaka.

At least Serena told them off and tried to console Osaka whilst also crying herself.




All in all what a mess. <z3 for the poor lovely thing :(. But she seemed fine during the PM presser and interviews. Bless her. <3
 

reaper

Legend
Yes. It is just like time violations, and that's probably the only thing the clock does. It stops disputes, and very effectively. When the clock says zero, only a complete ass is going to argue. The violations become 100% transparent.

So either use a clock, or let the players play without time violations, the only two choices.

I think the wise choice here would be to ignore hand signals and so on, and I doubt the make much difference.
I think coaching has the capacity to make a huge difference. If a player implements a tactic they weren't using before they received the external advice it can change a match.
 

Bukmeikara

Legend
First of all, I am 100% with the umpire but I like to point out how sensitive some people could be:

The OP agreed that Serena deserved her first two warnings and then says that the 3rd one is over the top being just about the word " thief" !!! And just like that, for MAYBE making a far streched call which could easily be a honest mistake, she goes out and calls him a sexist. Just because one call she is ready to mark him for life with these accusations. Saw the irony ?!!
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
Yes. It is just like time violations, and that's probably the only thing the clock does. It stops disputes, and very effectively. When the clock says zero, only a complete ass is going to argue. The violations become 100% transparent.

So either use a clock, or let the players play without time violations, the only two choices.

I think the wise choice here would be to ignore hand signals and so on, and I doubt the make much difference.
Agree. The most prudent strategy for referees is to ignore it until it is a totally obvious case of rules infringement. In this particular case Serena and sections of American public are frustrated with the loss. They don't see it as a sport where justice is done when a better player wins on the night. They see it as someone spoiled a perfectly scripted fairy tale.
 

reaper

Legend
Being accused of cheating in the heat of battle is not conducive to a calm reaction.

I suspect that two thirds of the people criticising Williams would have reacted similarly or worse.
She was given a code violation for coaching. There's an issue around the consistency of how that's applied, but there's no controversy about whether or not she was being coached. Her coach has said publicly he was doing it on this occasion and that he does it all the time. The faux piety around "cheating" is empty...given that there were clear breaches of the rules.
 

dgold44

G.O.A.T.
Shifting Blame to men who behave more badly is not a defense

However , he should have given her a verbal abuse warning not take a damn game
 
Another journo afraid to call out Williams for fear of being labelled a racist.

Why risk writing something accurate when you can continue to be a sycophant, and not call her to account for her hideous attitude and behaviour.
The even bigger fear is of being called a misogynistic woman hater in the post Weinstein world, or in this case a traitor to the cause. Then again this is hardly a balanced journalist.

Jenkins wrote two best-selling autobiographies of cyclist Lance Armstrong and defended Armstrong even after he admitted to doping and taking banned performance-enhancing substances while vehemently lying that he had done so, and was stripped of his seven Tour de France titles.[5] In a column titled, "Why I’m not angry at Lance Armstrong", Jenkins wrote: "And I’m confused as to why using cortisone as an anti-inflammatory in a 2,000-mile race is cheating, and I wonder why putting your own blood back into your body is the crime of the century.
 

reaper

Legend
You over-estimate the power of a hand gesture. The fact is that her coach couldn't help himself, and he is the one to blame.
Irrespective of who's to blame once the signal is given it's an offence. It's not the power of a hand gesture I'm estimating. It's the power of a tactical change. That can be decisive to the outcome.
 
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