How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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The interesting part is that her explanations were perfectly pitched to the listener.

She appealed to her being a woman in front of a woman, trying to find compassion, and attacked other men, in front of of a man, trying to get him defensive.

I am not saying that it was deliberate, but, wow, just how deep the roots of the indoctrination go?

:cool:
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
Bottom line men do this stuff too I watched the match and have watched her matches in the past and her competitive outbursts mirror men moreso than women. There is nothing wrong with that. I think if I looked hard enough I could find three BETTER examples of bad behavior than Serena’s. Was she on thin ice? without a doubt. She should’ve know that. However she isn’t wrong men do it with far more regularly and not much comes come of it.

In the final it’s time to have even thicker skin. And all those touting the rule book thisnand rule book that ... if Novak were to do the exact same thing tomorrow is he given a game penalty? I am just gonna leave that there to sit. Cause I am willing to bet you make it apples and apples he says verbatim what she says does exactly what Serena does he doesn’t get the penalty.
Do you know any other occasion when umpire was called a thief? Everything else is more tolerable as "thief" implies intention. I heard player saying "are you blind", but this is not comparable as it does not imply intention.
 

mistik

Hall of Fame
Yeah, anyone who uses that argument in the light of current situation on both tours is just heavily biased. This was Serena in good form (better than she was at Wimbledon) and a young player played fearless attacking tennis against her and kept her composure amazingly well.

Compare that to Thiem not being able to beat out of sorts Nadal even though he literally destroyed him in the 1st set or Kyrgios tanking against very lackluster Fed. Not to mention the golden boy Zverev losing to 40 year old Kohlschreiber who's one foot in retirement. It's a joke.
I really begin to think there is more potential in WTA now. Still far away from the golden years off Hingis,Capriati,Mauresmo,Clijsters,Henin.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Telling someone they are cheating involves imputing intention as well.

Do you know any other occasion when umpire was called a thief? Everything else is more tolerable as "thief" implies intention. I heard player saying "are you blind", but this is not comparable as it does not imply intention.
 

Bogdan_TT

Professional
She was lucky the match wasn't called right then and there. What she did was a defamation of character, and was way over the top in its tone and delivery. In soccer she would have been straight red carded for that and out of the match. No doubt about it.

It was also cowardly. She knew Ramos couldn't say anything back in his position.

Sexist, she says? Really? Seem to remember Nalbandian being ejected from a match for far less.

It's worth noting that these outburts usually happen with Serena at the US Open. That's three times now (and twice she has effectively ruined someone's debut slam win).

Has she done it at any other slam? She's like a school bully who will only have a pop when she has the crowd standing behind her. That's also an example of cowardice.

She is just an absolute disgrace. I think the most depressing thing about this are the half-arsed attempts to defend her from celebrities and broadcasters.

Why has she never improved her attitude over the years? Because too many people tell her there's nothing wrong with it!

Well done Naomi Osaka.
Bumping this up
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The code violation did amount to an accusation of cheating, so most people around here would have behaved equally as badly as she did.
 

roysid

Hall of Fame
I still can't get how can anyone defend Serena. She abused the umpire, the winner was in tears and didn't enjoy her first grand slam win.

Her humanity was only restored at the end seeing Osaka suffer. Come on, this girl's first slam win is spoiled through out.

And Serena why always she has issues when she's losing. It's a global pattern
 

BringBackSV

Hall of Fame
I repeat. What a total psychopath and narcissist.
Totally ruined Osaka's moment when she was being clearly outplayed.
Now that she ruined the match and the trophy ceremony she's trying to calm things down.

She may go down as the female GOAT but she'll never get my respect as a person.
Wow, not going to get your respect as a person? Think she's going to be able to carry on after such a big blow?
 

Alien

Hall of Fame
You are not getting it. Serena this such a horrendous scandal precisely because she had now way to win She took the easy way out. Embraced an excuse for ger beating mentally it is the way she took to get out of it.

So the answer is obvious. NO.
 

Keendog

Professional
Well seriously if this was Nick Kyrgios (who btw is a MAN) was carrying on who would disagree the penalty was appropriate, and what would the media "stories" be?

So no Serena, you are not being persecuted, you are being entitled.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Thought people were joking but she really brought her daughter up in that exchange. My god.
This is the crux of Serena's problem. She has no idea how to just calmly argue with someone without screaming and finger pointing. And she has a huge victim complex and a lot of cards to play.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
He's always been a stickler for rules. Here's a list of calls against the top male players:
http://larrybrownsports.com/tennis/...istory-code-violations-serena-williams/463180
– In 2017 at the French Open, Novak Djokovic was given a fault on his serve by Carlos Ramos for time violations. He then received a code violation for unsportsmanlike conduct after yelling.

– In 2018 at Wimbledon, Ramos gave Djokovic a code violation for slamming his racquet into the ground. Djokovic later complained about a double standard from Ramos, who did not penalize Kei Nishikori for something similar.

– In 2017 at the French Open, Ramos called a time violation on Rafael Nadal. Nadal thought the call was selectively enforced and said he was not satisfied with it.

– In 2016 at the French Open, Ramos called Nick Kyrgios for a code violation for yelling at a towel boy. Kyrgios accused Ramos of having a double standard and was described as “mystified” by the penalty.

– In August 2016 at the Olympics, Ramos called Andy Murray for a code violation for saying “stupid umpiring.”

– In July 2017, Ramos called Andy Murray for a time violation for playing too slowly. Murray acknowledged he had been warned before receiving the violation but was still bothered by it.
Carlos, a sincere thank you for having the guts to stand up and call it like it is!



 

reaper

Legend
The code violation did amount to an accusation of cheating, so most people around here would have behaved equally as badly as she did.
The code violation was for coaching. Her coach's response was that he was coaching "like 100% of coaches in 100% of matches." So Serena is coached routinely in her matches, and a lot of other players are too if her coach is to be believed. If everyone does it they regard it as a technical breach which you get away with if you can rather than cheating. It's not something the sport regards as a particular serious offence either given that the penalty in the first instance is a warning. Rather than pretend professional athletes are morally pure individuals people should just accept they generally push the rules of the games they play to the edge and beyond to obtain an advantage.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Well, there you go, I thought he was too quick with the code violation and so we now see he has quite the history of reaching for his red pencil.

He's always been a stickler for rules. Here's a list of calls against the top male players:
http://larrybrownsports.com/tennis/...istory-code-violations-serena-williams/463180
– In 2017 at the French Open, Novak Djokovic was given a fault on his serve by Carlos Ramos for time violations. He then received a code violation for unsportsmanlike conduct after yelling.

– In 2018 at Wimbledon, Ramos gave Djokovic a code violation for slamming his racquet into the ground. Djokovic later complained about a double standard from Ramos, who did not penalize Kei Nishikori for something similar.

– In 2017 at the French Open, Ramos called a time violation on Rafael Nadal. Nadal thought the call was selectively enforced and said he was not satisfied with it.

– In 2016 at the French Open, Ramos called Nick Kyrgios for a code violation for yelling at a towel boy. Kyrgios accused Ramos of having a double standard and was described as “mystified” by the penalty.

– In August 2016 at the Olympics, Ramos called Andy Murray for a code violation for saying “stupid umpiring.”

– In July 2017, Ramos called Andy Murray for a time violation for playing too slowly. Murray acknowledged he had been warned before receiving the violation but was still bothered by it.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Her coach doesn't speak for her and he even claims that she did not see him trying to coach her.

The code violation was for coaching. Her coach's response was that he was coaching "like 100% of coaches in 100% of matches." So Serena is coached routinely in her matches, and a lot of other players are too if her coach is to be believed. If everyone does it they regard it as a technical breach which you get away with if you can rather than cheating. It's not something the sport regards as a particular serious offence either given that the penalty in the first instance is a warning. Rather than pretend professional athletes are morally pure individuals people should just accept they generally push the rules of the games they play to the edge and beyond to obtain an advantage.
 

roysid

Hall of Fame
If she hadn't interview ed Patrick immediately who admitted to coaching, imagine the outrage. Because by then Serena s PR engine would have denied all coaching. Now as it is, it's egg on her face.

Some of the defense I am seeing is so idiotic that I'm disgusted.
- Serena: you stole a point from me, I've never received coaching.
Patrick : everyone does it including uncle Toni and Rafa.

Most horrible behaviour by Serena. She should have been banned imo
And the defense is, men have done that.

And the end, the biggest victims are Ramos and osaka. The image of Osaka sitting with towel all over her head is so haunting. Like a zombie whose legeitileg win was booed because of this horrible person.

And again , thanks to Pam shriver.
 

tacou

G.O.A.T.
Based on his twitter feed, I'd say yes.

But I feel like Serena would view that as giving in, in a way.

What say you?
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
That's accurate enough, but then there is the very officious offficial in Ramos who has quite the history of awarding code violations as quick as he can.

This is the crux of Serena's problem. She has no idea how to just calmly argue with someone without screaming and finger pointing. And she has a huge victim complex and a lot of cards to play.
 

moonballs

Hall of Fame
The coaching violation shouldn’t have been called in a grand slam final. What’s the big deal really? I completely agree with espn commentators on this. It is poor judgement selectively enforcing the rarely enforced rule in a grand slam final.

The second violation is double standard. The guys destroy racquets all the time. Do they always get a violation? Even Djokovic, the most likely champion, did it in an searlier round in this tournament. I don’t think male and female players should be paid the same. But I do think the rules should be applied the same way.

Third violation was fair and square. But because of the first two, the game penalty was not reversible and it was sad outcome of a great match Osaka played.

I respect Serena but I wouldn’t call myself a huge Serena fan. I root for the player in Serena matches based on the situation and yesterday I was rooting for Osaka. I think the Serena bashing on this thread is a bit too harsh.
 

roysid

Hall of Fame
Serena tirade started every time her serve got broken. The first warning had nothing to do with them.

1st time broken: Racket abuse and point penalty
2nd time broken: umpire abuse and game penalty on Osaka serve. Osaka might have won the serve and got to 5;-3 anyway
After all these commotion which disturbed Osaka, Serena could easily hold her serve and made it 4-5.

Without warning also, Serena loses
 

Bukmeikara

Legend
My impresion about him was that he was a man that knew his tennis but after checking his twitter and the shameful way of him creating the narative that the "umpire was wrong and Serena was saint" .... I hope he gets some kind of karma back
 

reaper

Legend
Her coach doesn't speak for her and he even claims that she did not see him trying to coach her.
He's been her coach for years and if he says he coaches her routinely in matches I'm inclined to believe him. He has no motive to implicate himself in a dubious practice, but she has a motive to exonerate herself from one. "Thou dost protest too much" is the usual descriptor for someone whose reaction is as shrill as Williams in this case when the vision shows clear signaling from the coach, and the coach says he does it all the time.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
At U.S. Open, power of Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka is overshadowed by an umpire’s power play
by Sally Jenkins,
The Washington Post

What any clear, hate-free mind witnessed:
Chair umpire Carlos Ramos managed to rob not one but two players in the women’s U.S. Open final. Nobody has ever seen anything like it: An umpire so wrecked a big occasion that both players, Naomi Osaka and Serena Williams alike, wound up distraught with tears streaming down their faces during the trophy presentation and an incensed crowd screamed boos at the court. Ramos took what began as a minor infraction and turned it into one of the nastiest and most emotional controversies in the history of tennis, all because he couldn’t take a woman speaking sharply to him.
Key point #1:

Williams abused her racket, but Ramos did something far uglier: He abused his authority. Champions get heated — it’s their nature to burn. All good umpires in every sport understand that the heart of their job is to help temper the moment, to turn the dial down, not up, and to be quiet stewards of the event rather than to let their own temper play a role in determining the outcome. Instead, Ramos made himself the chief player in the women’s final. He marred Osaka’s first Grand Slam title and one of Williams’s last bids for all-time greatness. Over what? A tone of voice. Male players have sworn and cursed at the top of their lungs, hurled and blasted their equipment into shards, and never been penalized as Williams was in the second set of the U.S. Open final.
Irrefutable truth. As I--and anyone who followed the sport more than the ages of certain TWW members, Serena did not do anything different than innumerable players I tennis history. Sorry Hooded Haters, but her reaction is nothing compared to outbursts from Nastase, McEnroe, Connors cursing out anyone in sight with McEnroe's violent behavior injuring a fan), cursing out umpires and fans like Sharapova, Jim Courier violently shaking the chair umpire (nearly causing him to be pitched from the seat), or the unforgivable racist tirade against James Blake and a linesperson who happened to be the "wrong" color by the vile Lleyton Hewitt (who should have been banned from the sport for his attack...but was not). Nowhere near yesterday's incident, no matter how much you want it to be that way. So for Ramos to effectively shift the course of a majors final strongly suggests he either hates Williams (for any number of despicable reasons), or as the article points out, he could not stand a woman asserting her rightful opinion to him. Take your pick.

Key point #2:

It was pure pettiness from Ramos that started the ugly cascade in the first place, when he issued a warning over “coaching,” as if a signal from Patrick Mouratoglou in the grandstand has ever been the difference in a Serena Williams match.
Of all players in history--female or male to not need on-court coaching, that would be Serena. You do not reach her kind of success by having constant whispers in your ears; a player faces some new and some familiar opponents at any turn, and there's no way to take all of their possible reactons or strategies into consideration enough that it would matter--unless one is a low-skilled player (I will leave them nameless for now). Moreover, there's more than enough players in the WTA and ATP who do receive on-court coaching, but how often are they being penalized?

Key point #3:

it was up to Ramos to de-escalate the situation, to stop inserting himself into the match and to let things play out on the court. In front of him were two players in a sweltering state, who were giving their everything, while he sat at a lordly height above them. Below him, Williams vented, “You stole a point from me. You’re a thief.” There was absolutely nothing worthy of penalizing in the statement. It was pure vapor release. She said it in a tone of wrath, but it was compressed and controlled. All Ramos had to do was to continue to sit coolly above it, and Williams would have channeled herself back into the match. But he couldn’t take it. He wasn’t going to let a woman talk to him that way. A man, sure. Ramos has put up with worse from a man. At the French Open in 2017, Ramos leveled Rafael Nadal with a ticky-tacky penalty over a time delay, and Nadal told him he would see to it that Ramos never refereed one of his matches again.
So, let's see...Nadal threatening Ramos' job security (and the threat meant exactly that) was less egregious than "You're a thief?" Bullsh*t--so once again, it all goes back to what can only be Ramos' motivations / reactions, and by comparison, he barely slapped Nadal on the wrist for a greater, personal threat to his livelihood.

Key point #4:

Ramos had rescued his ego and, in the act, taken something from Williams and Osaka that they can never get back. Perhaps the most important job of all for an umpire is to respect the ephemeral nature of the competitors and the contest. Osaka can never, ever recover this moment. It’s gone. Williams can never, ever recover this night. It’s gone. And so Williams was entirely right in calling him a “thief.”
If was a thief--his sticky fingers were motivated by sickening beliefs. I will let the Serena haters / Ramos defenders try to spin that anyway they can, as failed a mission that will be.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
Overwhelming majority is with her. Check the world media coverage.
The chair umpire has made it possible for the world to see the double standards and may have triggered the much needed debate to fix what's wrong with the system.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Overwhelming majority is with her. Check the world media coverage.
The chair umpire has made it possible for the world to see the double standards and may have triggered the much needed debate to fix what's wrong with the system.
Tee hee....
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
If America has a problem, then that's America's problem. Western culture is doing fine.

This seem to be where western culture is heading. Intolerance of criticism at any level. Universities restricting freedom of speech because someone may take offensive. I feel a Bill Burr style rant coming on but Bill Mayer will do just as well:

 

Andy Miller

New User
This was Williams' third high-profile conflict with an official at Flushing Meadows, following her tirade after a foot fault in the 2009 semifinals against Kim Clijsters and a dispute over a hindrance call in the 2011 final against Sam Stosur. Anyone see a pattern here no wonder nobody likes her except NY fans
 

Windsor

Rookie
That's some seriously silly article here and ,believe me, I am not being sexist, it's just a metter of fact assessment..What's the so called "proof" to do with what happened yesterday? what happen yesterday was that this terrible jerk called Serena Williams kept on abusing that umpire guy till he was, finally, forced to do what he would be supposed to do i.e. his job and apply the rules. Everything is to do with sexism nowadays it seems. Even when a woman in a position of power abuses and humiliates a guy who is trying to do is job, even this apparently, has something to do with sexism, was the consequence of what??.. Of sexism, of course!
 

Kalin

Legend
If Ramos can't take that sort of guff like a man then he has problems with women.
Come on, now... Ramos is not there representing the male gender, he is representing the umpiring profession. No umpire should be required to take such crap from anyone. And yes, I have been an umpire myself. Getting abused from entitled players is no fun and, more importantly, prevents the umpire from doing his/her job properly. Hence, the penalties for umpire abuse are usually very severe. As I mentioned in another thread, other sports are much stricter; people get thrown out immediately for much milder behaviour.
 
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