How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
Well I don't remember Nadal yelling or demanding an apology or getting in his face or carrying it on for multiple change overs.
Nadal threatened Ramos' livelihood--in other words, he was using the power he knows he possesses in the sport against Ramos. That was beyond more than enough and something that deserved more than what Nadal received, according to the little "I love Ramos" group of Talk Tennis. His trying to force his will on Serena for whatever reason was outrageous. Since others note he's had run-ins with other players, perhaps Nadal was right in making his threat.



Not a thing the quoted article claims is true.
Then you were not watching the match.

Would you expect anything different from a liberal rag
You have just invalidated anything you have to say. This lead to the conclusion if the article was from the one-sided National Review, or Breitbart, or perhaps Trump' (or one of his Russian handlers) you would sing their praises.

Ramos has had run-ins with a lot of players over the years tbf. Murray, Novak, Nadal, Kyrgios (OK, Kyrgios has run-ins with everyone....).
Then he is a problem, but as the article so clearly explains, he escalated the entire incident.

I do think he made a mistake with the game penalty and I also think he could've done more to try and defuse the initial kerfuffle, but she definitely made her share of mistakes yesterday unfortunately.
He did not, which says what about his treatment of Serena? If he has never escalated an issue to this degree---even against Nadal who threatened his job, then what are his motives? A weak man who tried--and failed--to save face in front of a crowd? Or something else?
 
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73west

Semi-Pro
I thought it was clear that they were saying (albeit not in so many words) that the chair umpire followed the rules. It's a dry statement but it's not that hard to parse imo.

I personally wasn't sure whether the coaching rule required the player to participate in coaching and the statement clarified for me that it doesn't, it's enough that the player box coaches (which makes sense as it puts onus on players, who are indeed best positioned to do so, to make sure the box behaves like it should).

I'm guessing that the "it's not reviewable" part is probably a response to a bunch of people @-ing at them to step in and do sth.
The rule can’t depend on whether the player took the coaching to heart because that will always be impossible to prove.

Players get warnings they think are unfair. They complain and move on. Nadal got a time violation warning when he felt the returner (Pospisil, I think) asked him to hold up. He didn’t respond by losing his mind.
 

1HBHNation

Rookie
nananana na ne ne na. thug life bro. ramos. well done sir. I bow to you.

#muchrespect #putthatbiotchinherplace #yousavedtennis #savior
 

rmontro

Rookie
Some have noted here that women's tennis is governed by the WTA, and therefore is managed differently than the ATP.
If that's the case here, shouldn't it also be the case concerning Serena's code violations in the US Open Ladies Final? Apologists for her kept saying that she was treated differently than the men would be (not that I agree with that).
 

Zardoz7/12

Professional
So what is the answer? Men umpiring Male matches and Women umpiring Women's matches? When politics in particular identity politics is inserted into say a sport watch as people go at each others throats, I wish I got paid for being an agitator I guess it pays better than being a music teacher.
 

skyline

Legend
Well, Kyrgios is constantly arguing and he is constantly being called on it. That's exactly the point. Plus, he has matured a lot and he is never (as far as I have seen) malicious.

I don't think what Serena did will bring Western civilization down. But the attempts to justify her very immature behaviour by the US press while accusing the umpire of all mortal sins very well might :) Come on, she is a veteran; she should know better. She was very much out of line and even her coach didn't lie in order to defend her; he admitted he had been coaching. Pretty telling, don't you think.
My point is that Nick's incidents are quite frequent whereas her last one was 7 years ago. Otherwise, I do agree he's not malicious, that's partially why I like Nick. I'm not sure he's maturing though - I thought he was but then he tanked against Borna not too long ago and kind of dashed my hopes as far as that one.

And, yes, she was wrong to defend Patrick. She thought he wasn't coaching her, but he was and he said so. But more than anything, she made the mistake by going back to the incident so much. I thought she made her point very well when she said "I'd rather lose than cheat." Should've stopped at that and this wouldn't have been half the circus it turned into.

I haven't liked Ramos for a while tbh, which also factors into my view of the situation. He just has a way of inserting himself into matches, something Andy Murray called him on at Rio Olympics two years ago.
 
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Crisstti

Legend
I meant global coverage from New York to LA. Not foreign countries like Britain and France - I'm sure they would rather support one of their own Ramos the chair umpire. No surprise there. People from foreign countries don't like American sporting heros and their generosity and other great human qualities.
Carlos Ramos is a personification of the unfair advantage they exercise.
That's hardly "global" coverage hehe.

So the US press is supporting her. The press there is pathetic, we know that already.

ESPN here has been fair and called her behaviour clearly unsportsmanlike.
 

1HBHNation

Rookie
Serena should realise by now that a meltdown with the chair at the US open final always ends up bad. Remember the one with Clijsters and stour? Now Osaka. If she gets to the final in NY again she needs to keep herself in check.
she wont. a crook will always be a crook when given the chance. a thug , always a thug. way to be a thug out there Serena. Such class you show to young kids everywhere. :rolleyes:
 

Otacon

Hall of Fame
I think they are taking revenge for the heavily justified America first policy of the current us government. People are tired of being taken advantage and foreign countries don't like the fact that US has become smart and standing up for itself.
I disagree, the outrage I'm talking about had no political connotation.
 

kaiotic

Rookie
Spiritual. Awareness? What? That is dead now. I am on my her-ney. This is real. Anything is real if you identify it as real, man! I mean, person. Herstory will be kind to serena. Not Ramos. I want to end up on the good side of herstory. I follow the goddess now. And you cannot have aussie darcy guide me.
I take offense to herstory. We need to relearn hystory. We have to stop genderising everything. For the sake of gender equality, if you only have one front hole, you need to get another. Alternatively, demand eternal apologies from your parents for not giving you two in the first place. They really did steal a hole from you. And robbed you of the joy of giving birth to a daughter.

I admit, this whole thing is ridiculous. Ludicrous. Arrest the thief! Omg.
 

Firstservingman

Talk Tennis Guru
The sexist trope of the hysterical woman played a major factor in that weak 'abusing the umpire' call.
No it didn't. Please. Utter conjecture at best.

--
@Lozo1016 @Bartelby @The others here today whose names I forget at the moment sorry

I'm yet to see any decent argument from the other side today tbh. It all seems to be based on delusions of persecution and discrimination which pretty quickly fall flat under closer scrutiny.
The closest thing I've seen to a rational, unemotional assessment that's critical of the umpire is that the evidence for the initial coaching violation may have been a bit flimsy. After the fact, however, we have learned from Patrick himself that he was indeed coaching and the umpire's instinct was found to be totally correct. So the best you can do is criticize him for being a real stickler for the rules. Grey area at best.

As for the rest of it, a racquet smash is a crystal clear violation and the third violation was based on continued insults and pestering from Serena including a threat made about his job and allegations made against his integrity as an official. Penalizing that kind of behaviour is well within his job description, and the punishment (game penalty) is what the rules explicitly call for in the case of a third violation.

We can argue all day about whether women are kept down by evil men doing this kind of thing all the time, although the men (such as Fognini and Kyrgios) do very clearly get punished regularly for the same things, including by this same umpire:
Billie Jean King is talking nonsense. Carlos Ramos has a history of enforcing the rules by the letter. He has given code violations to numerous men for being "emotional". For instance:
  • Djokovic was penalised by Ramos for unsportsmanlike conduct after yelling at the French Open in 2017.
  • At the 2016 French Open, Nick Kyrgios was given a code violation by Ramos for yelling at a ball boy.
  • Ramos gave Andy Murray code violation for saying "stupid umpiring" at the 2016 Olympics.
http://larrybrownsports.com/tennis/...istory-code-violations-serena-williams/463180
That's really all there is to it.
 

Lozo1016

Semi-Pro
I'm just wondering when tennis fans started backing umpires who unnecessarily inject themselves into the story line of the match. I prefer umpires who step back and let the beautiful tennis speak for itself.
 

George Turner

Hall of Fame
That's the problem. What's left wing is almost rightwing in another country. What's feminism in someone's mind is lunacy in another. Serena was not representing anything other than her inflated ego. I am someone who cares deeply for women's rights. I don't call myself anything of course. It is what it is.
Yes ofc she only cared about her own ego in that situation. I always wonder how people like her can fit their egos inside their head.

But you see she turns it into a woman's rights issue, when all she actually cares about it herself. She plays the victim, sexist card.

That's what I see typical feminists doing unfortunately, certainly where I come from
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Sorry I don't understand. Were you a victim of abusive behaviour on a woman's part? I am well aware that the pendulum swings both ways.
Yes and we broke up soon afterwards. She did this because she knew I wasn't gonna hit back. If a man did that to me he'd be scooping up the skin from his face from the ground = totally acceptable.

Im a one red flag kinda guy. You do some crazy s**t to me we're done.
 

sredna42

Hall of Fame
I think they are taking revenge for the heavily justified America first policy of the current us government. People are tired of being taken advantage and foreign countries don't like the fact that US has become smart and standing up for itself.
So it's Trump's fault now LOL gods below you can't make this chit up.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
No matter which sport we talk about, every commentator essentially says that.

Umpires should never, except in extremis, inject themselves into the story line.

Officiating for moral improvement is for juniors, not grand slam finals.

I'm just wondering when tennis fans started backing umpires who unnecessarily inject themselves into the story line of the match. I prefer umpires who step back and let the beautiful tennis speak for itself.
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
Morataglou was coaching and he admitted it. Chris Evert agrees that he coached too. If any competent person investigated they would see that just a couple points later Serena did exactly what Morataglou signaled/hand gestured for her to do. Move Naomi side to side and bring her in to the net.

Serena said, "He gave me a thumbs up. I don't need coaching and I don't cheat." I agree she doesn't need coaching. But there was no thumbs up. Maybe at an earlier time but not the time he moved his hands & arms side to side and then moved them forward. Why not admit it and move on?
Serena demanded an apology from the umpire. "SAY IT, SAY IT. I want an apology. " she didn't curse but she did truly demand an apology on two separate occasions.

Her focus was to continue on Carlos instead of focusing on an opponent, NAOMI, who was beating her a second time in a year and in straight sets.
She had no answers for Naomi so she focused her anger on something else.
Before all this you could see Serena was about to cry and had agonizing facial expressions of losing.

The umpire is NOT the big reason for her loss. It was the player's actions and coach who caused it. She just lost her serve and got broken a 3rd time with Osaka serving at 4-3. Serena was up 40-15 in that game too. So, she was pissed at that. BLAME,BLAME, BLAME in defeat. Shameful and not something to teach young kids. NO. Ramos did not shift the course of a major no matter what spin you want to put.

I'm also a fan of Sloane, Venus, FAA, Monfis, and Gauff. Serena didn't need to make drama but when she's on the verge of a loss in a USO final she did. Sure Sharapova blames losses on other things too and I don't like her either.

Yes, McEnroe & Connors have said worse but those times were different and they didn't have 2 warnings or a point penalty already taken. Mac probably should have been given a game penalty a number of times. He was a true jerk on the tennis court to fans, umpires, and line judges.
Some of Ryan Harrison and Donaldson are worthy of point & game penalties too.

Racket smashing warning penalties are always called. So is smacking the ball into the crowd. She smashed her racket badly after dropping her serve and the coaching violation prior all justify a point loss. No issue there but Serena did have an issue with it.

Do I think a game penalty should have been given to her? As I understand it, there was no swearing or threat but there was a demand which is intimidation. Since, it's a slam final I'd give her a warning that if she keeps it up I'll have to penalize you a game. I'm not a fan of hers but I'd also understand the cost to the emotional player. That is what happens in today's sports to the stars. Perhaps Mohammad Layhani should have the done the match. However, any top tennis player knows when you have a point penalty already assessed, and you continue to directly verbally abuse the official even more (what Ramos said she did), a game penalty is next .

Maybe in a final, there should be a second umpire near the chair to overhear what players say. They discuss if a game penalty is applicable. I'm sure we'll hear the entire tirade of words Serena and Ramos said.
A sexist? No. I think and hope he wants to keep the sport gentleman and lady-like.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
I wouldn't go for a woman like that but whatever floats your boat. hope you're still alive in another eight years.

I have a gf but I don't think its a great idea to talk about our relationship publicly. You never know whose watching.
I'm not worried about it. I've heard women say crazy things all my life and it doesn't mean anything 99% of the time. If I really thought she was serious I wouldn't talk about it or be with her.
 

Azure

G.O.A.T.
Yes ofc she only cared about her own ego in that situation. I always wonder how people like her can fit their egos inside their head.

But you see she turns it into a woman's rights issue, when all she actually cares about it herself. She plays the victim, sexist card.

That's what I see typical feminists doing unfortunately, certainly where I come from
I really don't know how this incident got this colour to be honest. It has nothing racial or sexist in its entirety.
 
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rmontro

Rookie
It's hard for me to believe that the US media defends behavior like this from their tennis players. And goes so far as to criticize the umpire, who was just doing his job.

This sort of outburst from Serena is why I've never been a fan of hers, especially since 2009 when she threatened to stuff a tennis ball down that poor linewoman's throat. I mean, I don't hate her, but I can't say I'm a fan. I will say that her post-match remarks about it being Osaka's first slam and the crowd booing were classy.
 

George Turner

Hall of Fame
And you know that because?

A very good friend of mine was abused by her husband for years...years after marriage. She stayed in it only for her children. Care to explain this?
Exact same thing happened to my uncle. Literally the exact same thing.

You don't have to be a man to be a terrible, controlling, abusive partner.
 

skyline

Legend
Except he doesn't appear to have told her to bring Naomi to the net at all. He appears to have told her to go to the net herself. I don't know how you can so determinedly claim to know what he was doing when half this board can't agree on what it was (some ppl, for instance, are claiming he told her to hit down the middle).
 

73west

Semi-Pro
If they came to NYC thinking it's real America, good luck to them. It shows lack of awareness and wisdom.
Are Citizenship papers real? I know printing has advanced in many parts of the world. The printing shops have good business creating fake but real looking documents.
Otherwise there is no way millions would be pouring into already overcrowded cities such as NYC with severe shortage of affordable housing for hard working native born Americans.
Dems love it because it means more power to them via tribal voting habits.
God this is dumb as hell and I wish people wouldn’t bring political mud slinging to the tennis forum. What utter nonsense.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
We have culture. Its different because we are such a young country. Everything originally came from somewhere else and we made it our version. Not everything, but a lot of things.
Agree, different kind of culture, true. like Hamberger eating, head banging rock and roll kind of culture. Europeans look down on that kind of stuff because it doesn't have thousands of years of heritage behind it.
 

Azure

G.O.A.T.
Exact same thing happened to my uncle. Literally the exact same thing.

You don't have to be a man to be a terrible, controlling, abusive partner.
Don't disagree at all :) it's a case by case basis. That is why I don't like the broad brush stroke statements like 'women rant but men are calm' or 'men shouldn't cry' etc.
 

Firstservingman

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm just wondering when tennis fans started backing umpires who unnecessarily inject themselves into the story line of the match. I prefer umpires who step back and let the beautiful tennis speak for itself.
This really does have to be the stupidest line I've seen repeated ad nauseum today.

By "unnecessarily inject" you mean do their job and enforce the rules. :D
Nah, they should just be allowed to do whatever they want, right? He should have just sat there and be abused repeatedly by her and done nothing lest he, the officiating umpire, "inject" himself into the match?

Rubbish, and you know it. He's there to do his job, and he did it.
 
People that are stuck on the coaching violation are missing the big picture. I guess Serena is trying to keep it at the forefront of the discussion, because she can easily deflect blame and use the "but everyone else is doing it" argument (that's what she's really teaching her daughter). No - the main issue is Serena's inability to stand tall in the midst of adversity. She couldn't just let it go. Remember, she breaks her racquet (modeling some more good behavior for her daughter), gets a point penalty, and then continues to berate Ramos about a coaching warning games ago. Let's imagine a scenario in which Serena gets to point penalty, gathers herself, doesn't speak another word to Ramos, and comes back to win the final. But that would never happen. Serena loves drama and, like many have said, loves to play the victim. And what about someone that tuned into tennis for the first time? Is that what a 20+ grand slam champion looks like?
 

Tennease

Legend
Some have noted here that women's tennis is governed by the WTA, and therefore is managed differently than the ATP.
If that's the case here, shouldn't it also be the case concerning Serena's code violations in the US Open Ladies Final? Apologists for her kept saying that she was treated differently than the men would be (not that I agree with that).
US Open and other Grand Slam tournaments (AO, FO, Wimbledon) are governed by the ITF which has its own rules, different from ATP/WTA rules.
 

natalia

Hall of Fame
There was no option for a warning. Third violation is an automatic game penalty.
1. Coaching (Warning)
2. Smash Racket (Point penalty)
3. You're A Thief! (Game) :(
It is NOT only the word (‘thief’, ‘liar’) - it is also the manner of speech : yelling IS a verbal abuse too! Serena was yelling at Ramos bigtime for quite a while!

She got what she deserved. Now, if she has a tiny bit of dignity, she should retire from tennis and go for some anger managment coaching. For her daughter’s sake.
 
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