How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
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He went out of his way to involve himself in the match. She freaked out but no way there should have been a coaching penalty. We all see the camera angles all the time. Coaches coach all the time, most of them can't help it. Issuing a warning for that is absurd. The racket smash is justified, we all know that rule. Issuing a verbal abuse warning for calling him a thief? That's weakness on his part. I've seen and heard much worse on both tours. Then again, so have you, you just don't care for Serena so there's really no sense in trying to make a realistic argument. I will say that I do feel badly for Osaka having her first slam overshadowed by all of that. She played incredible. You NEVER see anyone hit Serena off the court like that. Not Kerber, Sharapova, Mugaruza, none of them. Osaka played well physically and mentally. Too bad no one will be talking about that tomorrow.
Everyone knows this rule too.

Man, I wonder how many people have I seen defening Rafa like this when he's gotten a code violation for coaching (yeah that's right, men get them too).... but hey, maybe if he then broke a racket to get a point penalty and then cried and berated and insulted the ump for 15 minutes people would defend him lol


Agree, different kind of culture, true. like Hamberger eating, head banging rock and roll kind of culture. Europeans look down on that kind of stuff because it doesn't have thousands of years of heritage behind it.
We all look down on hamburgers, no? That is the vantage point while eating one. Unless your mouth is on your forehead? European mouths?


Bionic Poster
Serena single handedly tarnished the image of the sport and America. It is unfortunate that the American media and past players are not condemning her but shamefully supporting her with awful double standards.

David Law‏ @DavidLawTennis 2h2 hours ago
One thing to note from last night’s Naomi Osaka / Serena Williams match for those watching on TV / listening on radio. The booing was far, far louder and more unpleasant than came across. Feel for Osaka. Hope it doesn’t stay with her.


Hall of Fame
I meant global coverage from New York to LA. Not foreign countries like Britain and France - I'm sure they would rather support one of their own Ramos the chair umpire. No surprise there. People from foreign countries don't like American sporting heros and their generosity and other great human qualities.
Carlos Ramos is a personification of the unfair advantage they exercise.
You can't be serious. This is an excellent trolling post. Top notch.


I agree he's not malicious, that's partially why I like Nick. I'm not sure he's maturing though - I thought he was but then he tanked against Borna not too long ago and kind of dashed my hopes as far as that one.

And, yes, she was wrong to defend Patrick. She thought he wasn't coaching her, but he was and he said so. But more than anything, she made the mistake by going back to the incident so much. I thought she made her point very well when she said "I'd rather lose than cheat." Should've stopped at that and this wouldn't have been half the circus it turned into.

I haven't liked Ramos for a while tbh, which also factors into my view of the situation. He just has a way of inserting himself into matches, something Andy Murray called him on at Rio Olympics two years ago.
Pretty much agree on everything. NK is, vvveeerrrryyyyyy slowly, getting better but he could speed up the process :)

As for Serena, yes, she should have made her point once and proceeded with the match. As for her defenders, the sooner they stop trying to justify it, the sooner it will go away. Making everyone re-watching it and re-reading the transcript only makes it worse for her, IMO.

@a10best post pretty much sums up why she didn't let go. She hates losing (that's why she so rarely does) and when she does, it is not pretty. This time poor Ramos had to take it.


Talk Tennis Guru
Hence why I am never getting married.

I’d rather invest the otherwise wasted money on a nice car and a couple of German shepherds :D
I'd be with you 100% if I hadn't got lucky with my current long-time girlfriend ;)

Most women are fine though. It's like a bag of sweets though - the few bad flavours keep popping up because they're the ones that nobody wants to take out of the bag


Double standard certainly obvious. As Serena alluded to, Alize Cornet is penalized for quickly changing her shirt, wearing a very concealing sports bra, while Novak Djokovic takes off his shirt and lounges as if on a chaise at the beach and nobody says anything. Less is expected (and generally delivered) from the men.


Hall of Fame
You are right Ann, I should not have said shut your hole. I apologize for that. It looked worse than the intentions behind it.
Oh absolutely no need to apologize. On this board, it's one of the nicer things that have been said to me. :cool:


Why don’t you? Just cause other coaches do it doesn’t mean it’s somehow suddenly right. Rules are rules. And if you get caught, I’m sorry but you have nothing you can say to defend yourself. This isn’t Carlos’ fault. He did a great job out there. It’s his other umpire colleagues that are being inconsistent and not enforcing the rules and thus causing confusion and controversy in these kinds of situations
They enforce them as much as he does. Other umpires call out coaching too. Some more than other, like with everything.


Billie Jean King is talking complete nonsense.

Anyway, good on Serena for fighting for women's rights, like that time when she threatened to shove a tennis ball down a female line-judge's throat.
Women around the world should be empowered by this power move. Stand up for your right! The right to be a sh1tty person.

Need to YouTube that 2009 tirade.


As has become the case with most controversies, we have made it a choice between two extremes.


Serena was not blameless or heroic for yelling at the umpire, but that doesn't mean he made the best possible decision, either.
he clearly made the best possible decision:

- a coaching violation IS a coaching violation
- a racket abuse IS a racket abuse
- being insulted and talked aggressively and with lack of respect in front of 20,000 people and worldwide TVs DESERVES a warning

do the math :rolleyes:


Yep, people are misguidedly calling out Serena as a victim instead of Ramos as a hero. If there's an issue with discrepancy, it's that other umpires aren't enforcing the rules and the blowback from this is just going to make it worse. Too many of the umpires don't want the criticism and just let the match proceed as rules are constantly violated. Some won't overrule because Hawkeye might make them look bad.

You can't blame the umpires in some respects. Social media and TV commentators get riled up whenever they try to "insert themselves" in a match by actually enforcing rules. Brad Gilbert, Chris Evert and Co. think penalties should only be given at inconsequential times and that when matches are close, umpires shouldn't be involved at all. This is the wrong mindset. If the penalties are meaningless, then the players won't follow the rules. They will take the advantages they can get away with. Human nature. Make the penalties mean something and they will obey the rules.
I love this part of the post.
The surest way for umpires to unduly affect a game, in any sport, is to fail to enforce the rules. If they choose not to call it at this moment or against that player, they are overriding the rules that the players all know, and inserting their judgment instead.

But in all spurts, they get criticized for influencing the game when they do the thing that minimizes their influence on the game.


Mac got defaulted from the AO for 3 code violations including verbal abuse of an umpire. Jeff Tarango got point penalties for telling the crowd to shut up and then calling the umpire corrupt - verbal abuse.

If it's sexism how comes it's only Serena that seems to be involved time and time again?


Hall of Fame
Hi again, gents.

You reap what you sow.

What happened in the women final is simply the logical consequence of the failure to discipline a Prima Dona who repeatedly got away with bending the rules when she felt it advantaged her.

The WTA refused to punish Serena for her egregious 2009 and 2011 outbursts where she was recorded threatening and lying to people on the court.

She got away with pretty much a slap on the wrist.

So, it brings me much joy when an empire finally refuses to pander and back down to this entitled, abusive, narcissistic brat used to bully people around her when the score goes sour.

Carlos for president i say.
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Have to disagree. Stating that a complex situation with multiple points of view and experiences is going to have one party being absolutely righteous and the other absolutely at fault is quite unlikely. It's a much less bold claim to say it was probably a combination of mistakes from both parties, bad luck, and other circumstances.
Incorrect. Just because there are two extreme points of views doesn't mean that one of them couldn't be completely right and other completely wrong. See climate change.


Hall of Fame
The Beej King has spoken.
No one contradicts the Beej King without eventually having to publicly kiss the Pale White Arse.
Ask Novak if you don't believe me.

George Turner

Hall of Fame
Don't disagree at all :) it's a case by case basis. That is why I don't like the broad brush stroke statements like 'women rant but men are calm' or 'men shouldn't cry' etc.
Those statements are very generalizing, but there is an element of truth to them. For example "men shouldn't cry" because it's seen as a sign of weakness. Wheras women do sometimes cry and a good partner will let them do so and support her etc.

Men and women have differences, different skills, different emotional needs. A good couple understands that and works with them, no matter what feminists say. Like i suck at cooking so it's usually better if my gf does that, but i can support her in other ways :)


Patrick was attempting to coach Serena, probably deserved a warning. Patrick was wrong.

Serena over-reacted and breaking her racket was beneath her as was her temper tantrum after she received the penalty. Serena was wrong.

The umpire went over-the-top with the game penalty because Serena called him a thief. If you're that thin-skinned you have no right to be an umpire and much worse is said to umpires every day without any repercussions. Umpire was wrong.

Serena calling this sexism, is harmful to women. It minimizes what "sexism" actually is. There were two women on that court and for Serena to claim "sexism" is illogical and stupid. Serena was wrong.

The US Open fans that booed Osaka are idiots. Osaka played a brilliant game, she is a big part of the future of Women's tennis and she deserved cheers and a standing ovation. US Open fans were wrong.
You are wrong - Carlos dis his job

3 warnings for coaching violation, racket abuse, and insulting/aggressive language = game penalty

simple math :rolleyes:


Talk Tennis Guru
Exactly. I see marriages purely as a financial investment for which I will almost certainly lose out.

At least German Shepherds are loyal and loving lol
"I bet you half my stuff that I'll love you forever" :D

That's not to say that I personally think it's never a good idea. It just takes a very specific kind of partner to make that bet worthwhile.


This really does have to be the stupidest line I've seen repeated ad nauseum today.

By "unnecessarily inject" you mean do their job and enforce the rules. :D
Nah, they should just be allowed to do whatever they want, right? He should have just sat there and be abused repeatedly by her and done nothing lest he, the officiating umpire, "inject" himself into the match?

Rubbish, and you know it. He's there to do his job, and he did it.
Problem is, some umpires are sticklers for the rules and some give leeway to the athletes. When this is the situation, they open themselves to criticism. Serena got arrested for driving 57 mph in a 55 mph area. I step back and say, "use your common sense, Carlos."
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