How does Serena's behavior during USO Final compare to McEnroe during 1990 AO?

  • Serena's behavior was worse

    Votes: 88 58.3%
  • McEnroe's behavior was worse

    Votes: 38 25.2%
  • Both behaved about the same

    Votes: 25 16.6%

  • Total voters
    151
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stingstang

Semi-Pro
What Billie Jean says is not the end-all be all. She is truly disconnected from a person's reactions as the cause.
Of course, it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to be emotional and hysterical anytime and anywhere she wants. Very smart Mr. King.

click this for the shouting and finger pointing video at the umpire. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2018/09/08/serena-williams-vs-naomi-osaka-us-open-2018-final-live-score/
Not sexist - it seems more appropriatewhen you see it. If you read it,then no.
This comment under that video:

So now she wants to claim she is a fighter for women's rights?

No you aren't. You had to know that someday your streak of being one of the greatest to play the game would end. But rather then setting an example for girls everywhere on sportsmanship... On how to lose with dignity... You didn't. You pointed and screamed. You demanded that somebody "owes you something". You threw a tantrum and destroyed your racquet. You made threats like "You will never ref another game" to the official who legitimately caught you being coached from the stands. You then denied the girl who beat you fair and square her moment to shine as a champion because of your own bruised ego. So much so she actually felt the need to cry and APOLOGIZE for defeating you. Were you fighting for her equality too? Or just yours?

You exhibited to every girl out there every quality that somebody should not possess in defeat. That is what I hope my daughters take away from your display on the court.

So go on your talk shows and make your talking points and claims of being a champion for women. But none of the virtues you lay claim to can cover for the fact that, in reality, all you are is a sore loser.
Say no more.
 

skyline

Legend
Serena is one of the richest athletes on the planet. Why would she settle for PM when she could obviously afford the best coaching staff? She must feel that she is benefiting from their relationship for the most part.
Well obviously she doesn't think she's settling. I'm not her spokesperson, just a commentator giving my opinion on him.

I just suspect he's a very average coach whose approach (in the psychological sense) happens to mesh well with her.
 
"Coaching should be allowed on every point"

But it isn't, and while that's the case, you have to follow those freaking rules or suffer the consequences. :rolleyes:
I respect BJK for her past accomplishments, but this really is absurd.
It's like every time something negative happens to Serena, she imagines a different world where tennis has different rules to accommodate her.
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
We’ll never know because he didn’t get a code violation.
Players do all the time though, both male and female. Most don't then push their luck a further 2 times. It has happened. Fognini got banned from the doubles last year after verbally abusing an umpire. But when Serena does it, it's sexism. Because apparently she is the only female player, or the only one that matters. If she was just like "this is not fair, others get away with it" she might have a bit of a point (though if you're at 2 violations you're really asking for it and calling the umpire and a thief is certainly begging for a third violation) but the whole sexism thing - nah sorry, stop playing the victim courtesy of the gender card
 

BeatlesFan

Talk Tennis Guru
From my experience, showing too much emotion as a guy turns women off. I feel women have a lot of emotional s**t of their own to deal with and too much from a guy....
OMG... more examples of men having no understanding of women. So women have so much “emotional s—t” they have to deal with, that they can’t possibly accept a man who cries or shows “weakness.”

Those poor, misguided, weak, insecure women you speak about aren’t the kind you should be pursuing. I guess strong, educated professional women aren’t the kind you’ve ever met or dealt with. Or would a strong woman intimidate you?
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
If that happened Rafa might have hot discussion with an umpire maybe got angry as well but he wouldnt broke his racquet nor call an umpire thief and liar.
Federer could have easily been called for a code violation for his rant during the 2009 US Open final.

How would his fans reacted if he was?
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
LOL Washington Post.....Let's cut the crap and admit If it had been a white woman that did what Serena did,the race baiting,victmization agenda driven media would have been silent about this. We live in dangerous times when abhorrent behavior is justified and when violence is ignored if it does not suit your agenda.Whether you agree with what the referee did or not was correct, Serena bullied and pushed it further that it needed to go. THIS IS HER FAULT !!!!!!!!!!!
Exactly. The headline would have been ‘spoiled, entitled snowflake gets comeuppance from Japanese contender’.

And agree with the last part - Serena knew given her current lack of fitness and how well Osaka was playing she wasn’t going to turn the match around.
 

reaper

Legend
Ramos did everything by the rules, however, should have taken the control over the situation earlier and not let it escalate, especially in the Slam final!
1) Coaching violation - code of conduct, warning. It is just a warning, directed to both, player and bench. Serena's coach admitted coaching. She said she did not even see it, yet, moved to the net more and more right after the initial incident... BTW, no one has accused of "cheating" and MANY (men and women) were penalized for coaching before
2) Breaking the racket -- second violation, point deduction. Everyone who does it gets penalized, no exceptions -- Novak, Zvonareva, Zverev...
3) Verbal abuse -- the comments were directed to Ramos, not complaints about situation. "You are..." That is a verbal abuse.
Did he overreact -- probably. WAs is a bad timing -- probably. Did she deserve it -- DEFINITELY
I cannot see calling any umpire a thief & a liar, demanding they say sorry for a violation already given & wagging your finger at them something that wouldn't be a violation-probably many umpires would be intimidated because of who she is & would have let it go, but thankfully she ran into somebody who has decades of experience & isn't one to be bullied into submission. The guy can be a bit of a stickler at times, but he is a fair umpire-even Serena says she has never had any prior issue with him at all & he likes a laugh with the players, along with trying to keep things calm & in a good spirit.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
They should make a VR from the umpire's POV.

With an extra plug-in when you can slowly pour some mexican saus on Serena's head while she's in the middle of her rant.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
How can part of your defense be both? It either happens all the time and its unfair that I am being singled out OR I don't do it, ever.

The simple irrationality of arguing both clearly demonstrates her desperation to prove she is right when she is absolutely in the wrong.
She’s not in logic class.

She’s saying that:

1) If he was trying to coach her, she didn’t see it

2) If he was trying to coach her, it happens all the time (and everyone knows this). So why call it? Especially in a US Open final. And without any history (has Patrick been called in the past)?

Umpire should have given Patrick a “soft warning” first and not go straight to the code violation IMO.
 

reaper

Legend
And yet Kyrgios didn’t get a penalty. In case you didn’t notice, these penalties are poorly enforced. Do you get it now?
A couple of minor details: Layhani isn't Kyrgios's coach, and what he did wasn't coaching. Coaching is technical or tactical advice..."hit it to their backhand," "go to the net more" etc. The coach is permitted to encourage competitive play which is what Lahyani was doing. Obviously he shouldn't have involved himself, but that's a separate issue.
 
among the many reasons serena's argument is flawed is that the rules are the rules. You can hope that you get to slide by unnoticed or get a soft warning or not get called on things that amount to code violations but you can't count on it. The enforcement is slightly subjective . I've seen that happen on both men's and women's side of the game.

Ramos, in my view, is a very by the book referee across the board where as some of the others are more "flexible". He is not flexible and defers to the rules. She knows the rules. And if little ol' me has figured out that he is a by the book ref, she as a top pro with a good coaching team should have figured it out as well and realized she was really taking her chances with violations 2 and 3. Plus I can't think of a time where once a ref has made a decision that it is changed. So would have been strategically smarted to STFU and play--assuming that was the point. I think she knew she was losing, about to lose and made it about all these other things (tantrum, fight for male/female equality, motherhood)--when in reality it is about none of those things. She acted like a spoiled brat and yep her daughter will see that. Don't know that this is better than her seeing "cheating". Both bad and not role model material. Love that Naomi just put her head down throughout these shenanigans and just won. Good for her!
 

skyline

Legend
I have a feeling he might be quietly let go during the off-season. Firing him could come across as retaliation and be bad PR.
You think?


I think they'll weather it. I think it would bother her tons if he went to work for someone else.

Perhaps the solution is to ban him from her matches from now on. Have him stay on as coach, but never in attendance for matches. Though I doubt any of that will happen.
 
I'm just wondering when tennis fans started backing umpires who unnecessarily inject themselves into the story line of the match. I prefer umpires who step back and let the beautiful tennis speak for itself.
I could be wrong, but I very much doubt you'd hold the same position if the roles were reversed and Osaka was the "victim" of the umpire's supposed "sexism".
You would probably sing his praises.
 

Terenigma

G.O.A.T.
Ramos did his job.

However i think Serena does have a point when she said implied that ATP matches don't get the same scrutiny. We've seen coaching before in ATP matches and nothing gets done about it. Hell even Murray said that Verdasco was getting coaching off-court and the rules are not enforced consistently. It's not a sexism thing and it's certainly not a race thing (Classic media trying to turn it into that) it is simply that umpires are not enforcing the rules consistently and they need to OR get rid of the rule completely. How much of a difference can a few hand-signals make anyway? Just let everyone get coaching!
 

Zardoz7/12

Professional
"I will let the Serena haters / Ramos defenders try to spin that anyway they can" Why do these people politicize everything with this us vs them bs?
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Reem Abulleil‏Verified account @ReemAbulleil
Statement from USTA president Katrina Adams: ”What Serena did on the podium today showed a great deal of class and sportsmanship. This was Naomi's moment, and Serena wanted her to be able to enjoy it. That was a class move from a true champion.”


Seemed more like remorse and damage control rather than being a class act. But the hug at the conclusion of the match appeared to be genuine.
 

Fairhit

Professional
And the sexism approach, was she playing against a man? The race card, was she playing against a white player? She was playing against a woman who is half Japanese and half Haitian, what was it then? Motherism? Well that might have more Sense, after all, SHE HAS A DAUGHTER!
 
1. Her coach was clearly trying to get her to do something. Frankly watching it I have no idea what he wanted her to do. I took it as he wanted her to move Naomi around and then come forward herself however no one would know except him and Serena if Serena saw it an understood it. Don't know if she did it didnt look like she looked at him for long but who knows the way the cameras cut and pan during a match. However the chair saw him doing something and did something about it. Serena was given a warning. Maybe they need to revisit the rule and just have the coach removed in future

2. Serena after being given a warning chose to smash a racket after an emotional moment. She knew she had been given a warning and still did it. Not cool. She lost control, it was emotional but at the same time it's not like she hasn't been in pressure situations before.

3. She verbally went on and on about it. Frankly it was childish and ridiculous but something needed to be said to her. There was no reason for her to act the way she did in response to the Chair doing his job. She shouldnt have smashed the racket, period. She shouldn't have started demanding an apology and carrying on like she did. An official does not need to apologize for doing his job.

Trying to make Serena the victim here when she made some pretty poor choices over the course of events that lead to what happened is laughable. If she hadn't smashed her racket or thrown a temper tantrum nothing would have happened.

It's pretty sad that Naomi's win...WHICH SHE EARNED...is being questioned and ridiculed because of this. She went out and played her heart out against her idol, who she really wanted to play and respects and had to sit and watch all this and still keep her cool and win the match.

Seeing Naomi play as well as she did was amazing, especially given how much she admires Serena, it was her first major final and she had to be nervous. Shes the first from her country to win a major in singles right? And that's getting overshadowed with this nonsense.
 
D

Deleted member 293577

Guest
You think?


I think they'll weather it. I think it would bother her tons if he went to work for someone else.

Perhaps the solution is to ban him from her matches from now on. Have him stay on as coach, but never in attendance for matches. Though I doubt any of that will happen.
Just speculating, it hasn't even been 24 hours after what happened. You have a good point about it bothering her if he went elsewhere. But to admit that on national TV... I'd like to see how they clean up this PR nightmare. There may or may not be irreparable damage, I don't know enough about their relationship, whether or not they can weather the storm. I'd be surprised if it was an immediate firing though.
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
I think we forget that It actually never happened in a women match either before yesterday.
Would this bem sexism toward all those women matches as well?
You must not have been watching tennis too terribly long. Where do we start?

Tennis behavior became "entertaining" with the advent of professionals. The godfather of bad behavior was Pancho Gonsales. His progeny were Ilie Nastase (who called him "Little Father", Jimmy Connors, and John McEnroe - all of whom Gonsales counseled/coached).

Jimmy Connors defaulted a match on 22NOV86 against Ivan Lendl after throwing a tirade at the chair. Obscenities, personal insults, etc etc (sound Serena-ish?) were thrown at the chair prior to Connors storming off court. He was fined and suspended.

Ilie Nastase was defaulted/reinstated in a match against John McEnroe at the US Open in 1979. He was wrongfully reinstated, IMO. The reinstatement was due, in my opinion, to a drunken night crowd that almost rioted.

John McEnroe was defaulted in a match versus Michael Pernfors at the Australian Open in 1990. On a side note, the match was held in January and McEnroe wasn't clear on when the new default sequence was implemented. He pushed too far ala Serena. McEnroe admitted he thought he had another step before default.

Here is one more:

SpeedySteve said:
These are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there have been more. To play the gender card is really proof of nothing other than ignorance of the sport. Williams knew her status in the match and knew one more misstep would result in a game penalty. The chair acted within the rules, Williams did not. Search the boards, the chair has been a strict enforcer of the rules regardless of gender. Not only did Williams call him a thief and a liar, she threatened him by saying he would never call another point of hers again.... Really? So the lunatics (pun intended) are running the asylum now?
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
The mainstream media seem to be supporting her appalling behaviour. They have an agenda to push - create division between the sexes citing discrimination as i am a woman.

Read this article - biased to the eighth degree.


https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/45463752
The BBC is so bad - earlier this year they were still showing pictures of Trayvon Martin as a 12 year old, not the hulking 18 yr old 6’1” 180lb MMA student with a police record.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
The mainstream media seem to be supporting her appalling behaviour. They have an agenda to push - create division between the sexes citing discrimination as i am a woman.

Read this article - biased to the eighth degree.


https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/45463752
This is BBC and the others are some US media. Do you think that it is possible that some more important topics (like what Russia does, China, North Korea etc) are distorted in a similar way?
 

BHud

Hall of Fame
Sorry Bill, Serena did it to herself. She was getting her arse handed to her. Naomi was simply the better player that day and she couldn’t handle it. Professional? I think not. I’m not buying the gender card.
 
Wondering if he was removed so quickly for his own safety... That's what is a shame. Doing his job, applying rules without bias and doesn't get to partake of the celebration because of possible violence.
 
She also needs to voice an extremely unpopular opinion - that there should be coaching for women at Slams, which is a proposal for differentiated treatment, not gender equality - to get to that strange, irrational place where she can defend Williams. This is ideology or cult of personality trumping rationality. She needs to go against her self-professed beliefs in order to amass a few virtue signalling points.
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
Bottom line men do this stuff too I watched the match and have watched her matches in the past and her competitive outbursts mirror men moreso than women. There is nothing wrong with that. I think if I looked hard enough I could find three BETTER examples of bad behavior than Serena’s. Was she on thin ice? without a doubt. She should’ve know that. However she isn’t wrong men do it with far more regularly and not much comes come of it.

In the final it’s time to have even thicker skin. And all those touting the rule book thisnand rule book that ... if Novak were to do the exact same thing tomorrow is he given a game penalty? I am just gonna leave that there to sit. Cause I am willing to bet you make it apples and apples he says verbatim what she says does exactly what Serena does he doesn’t get the penalty.
Sorry, that wasn’t an ‘outburst’. An outburst is an F-bomb or one phrase. She went in a 15 minute tirade. And we all know why: she woke up Saturday thinking Osaka would ‘just be happy to be there’ and be a cakewalk. Instead Osaka was taking Serena’s pace and returning it with interest. Once Serena knew she was going to get destroyed she lost it.
 
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