Serena withdraws from USO

Sunny014

Legend
^ Such is the last resort of people who are emotionally disturbed by adults not buying your historically challenged Seles fantasies, much like your few supporters.

Now, return to your corner and only post when you provide evidence (there's that troublesome request again) that Seles was going to increase her majors count.

Oh, every adult around here realizes you cannot priovide evidence--only more bitter hissyfits about Graf--the woman who was superior to Seles and won the Grand Slam, something Seles was never going to achieve. I know, I know...dry your tears, little one--only a few tennis player can be as great as Graf, and Seles was not one of them.


...and this is a thread about Serena, not Seles. Take your crying bit to the Former Player forum, where you and the other two members obsessed with Seles revisionist history can play that ever losing game.
It has been proven time and again that when Monica was on 0 slams Graf had 9 slams and then Monica reacheed 8 while Graf could add only 2 more slams in this period.

Nd this was when Seles was 19

If you are telling me a 19 year old without the stabbing in normal situations would not have become better in her 20s than thats like saying Nadal of 2006 was not going to get better in 2008 or 2010

Such ridiculous arguments can only be given by Graf fanatics because honestly I don't care whether Graf/Seles were great or not, both of them played tennis before I started watching Tennis, so I don't have a horse in this race, my opinion of Graf being a weak vulture is clearly based on evidence that I see and it is just an opinion that is a coincidence, not because I have a particular horse on which I have to bet, for all I am concerned Serena Williams is better than both Graf and Seles, so it is irrelevant on who is greater between Graf and Seles, however you seem to be concerned on why Seles is considered greater than audience than Steffi just like this @R. Schweikart
So thats your problem buddy.

For me Serena is the GOAT followed by Navratilova/Court/Evert then comes Seles and Graf, this order won't change. The longevity of Serena and Navratilova/Evert is too much to ignore and your Graf's stats are all are FAKE.
 

pcft369

Rookie
Graf is the greatest weak era predator in history.
Won golden slam at a time when martina aunty was in her early-mid 30s and evert grandma was in her mid 30s, then was owned by Seles for 3 years, then gunter parche gifted her a free run of 3 years of absence of seles and before the arrival of hingis when graf vultured 11 more slams.

I would say the GOAT race is between Serena and Navratilova if we are to ignore Smith Court.
Well, thanks for trying. But that is a terrible take, and I'm convinced you know very little about tennis.
 
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Visionary

Professional
Amazing how "Serena withdraws from USO" generates 4 pages of replies but it does not get deleted from TTW board. I wonder if this thread would stay on if it were "Vaccinated Serena withdraws from USO with COVID". Isn't that a shame that we are so censored to discuss the actual topics that are worth reading and debating but blinded with boring headings and trolling messages?
 

BorisRogerFan

Semi-Pro
She certainly could stand to train harder all around. Her talent is there, but every excess pound, be it muscle or fat, only taxes the body more.
If she wants to win a slam and go all the sets it takes, she’s gonna have to take weight off her body.
No talent at all, just enty of brute force. Enough to sweep the pitiful feme tennis circuit.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
It has been proven time and again that when Monica was on 0 slams Graf had 9 slams and then Monica reacheed 8 while Graf could add only 2 more slams in this period.
Meaning absolutely nothing to the period where Graf and Seles met in the Wimbledon final, where--and yes, I will remind you-- Seles was at the height of her game going into that 1992 Wimbledon event, having won the '91 & '92 AO, the '90-'92 FO and the '91 USO, so she was no "kid" or inexperienced player never reaching her potential. Seles was considered nearly unbeatable at that point in her career, but Graf wiped the grass with Seles in that final.

As always, your cries and fanboying over Seles will never alter real history, or remove Graf from the GOAT distinction she earned through a magnificent understanding / application of the game. Then, there's the following which is undeniable:

Well, thanks for trying. But that is a terrible take, and I'm convinced you know very little about tennis.
Quite true. No one who actually knows the game would ever post such desperate, fact-challenged crap and expect to be taken seriously.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Meaning absolutely nothing to the period where Graf and Seles met in the Wimbledon final, where--and yes, I will remind you-- Seles was at the height of her game going into that 1992 Wimbledon event, having won the '91 & '92 AO, the '90-'92 FO and the '91 USO, so she was no "kid" or inexperienced player never reaching her potential. Seles was considered nearly unbeatable at that point in her career, but Graf wiped the grass with Seles in that final.

As always, your cries and fanboying over Seles will never alter real history, or remove Graf from the GOAT distinction she earned through a magnificent understanding / application of the game. Then, there's the following which is quite undeniable:



Quite true. No one who actually knows the game would ever post such desperate, fact-challenged crap and expect to be taken seriously.
Nadal was also at the height of his game in 2005 year.

He reached greater heights in 08-10.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
...which has no bearing on the specificss of Seles' own abilities or the competition she would face (including more meetings with GOAT Graf) as the years moved forward.
 

Sunny014

Legend
...which has no bearing on the specificss of Seles' own abilities or the competition she would face (including more meetings with GOAT Graf) as the years moved forward.
First of all neither seles not steffi are goats, Serena would have bullied them both but Graf would have lost more to Serena though.
 

pat200

Semi-Pro
It has been proven time and again that when Monica was on 0 slams Graf had 9 slams and then Monica reacheed 8 while Graf could add only 2 more slams in this period.

Nd this was when Seles was 19

If you are telling me a 19 year old without the stabbing in normal situations would not have become better in her 20s than thats like saying Nadal of 2006 was not going to get better in 2008 or 2010

Such ridiculous arguments can only be given by Graf fanatics because honestly I don't care whether Graf/Seles were great or not, both of them played tennis before I started watching Tennis, so I don't have a horse in this race, my opinion of Graf being a weak vulture is clearly based on evidence that I see and it is just an opinion that is a coincidence, not because I have a particular horse on which I have to bet, for all I am concerned Serena Williams is better than both Graf and Seles, so it is irrelevant on who is greater between Graf and Seles, however you seem to be concerned on why Seles is considered greater than audience than Steffi just like this @R. Schweikart
So thats your problem buddy.

For me Serena is the GOAT followed by Navratilova/Court/Evert then comes Seles and Graf, this order won't change. The longevity of Serena and Navratilova/Evert is too much to ignore and your Graf's stats are all are FAKE.
good for you, thankfully you are just about the only person in the world who thinks that way :D
 

JustMy2Cents

Professional
is there a tennis player male or female whose first title was grand slam ?????????
Ostapenko. RG 17
two days past her 20th birthday. ranked only 47th. Yes, she was trying to become the first unseeded women's champion at the tournament since — get this — 1933. And yes, she was trying to become the first woman in nearly four decades to make a Grand Slam title the first tour-level triumph of her career.
Halep appeared headed for a runaway victory when up a set and 3-0 in the second, plus holding three break points for the chance to lead 4-0.
 
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ScottleeSV

Professional
Only in Slam count, in about twice the time, and without a golden Grand Slam.
No way she's above Graf, she's at most on the same level.
Hasn't she played about 20 more slams than Graf and only has 1 more win ([ forget the exact number)?


I would never rule Williams out from winning another. She probably still has more chance than Federer at this stage. The US Open has looked her best slam for a while now though and it's gone for another year.

We really have reached the end for so many legends. Williams, Federer, Nadal, Murray, Wawrinka; not a single future slam will come from those 5 IMO. Djokovic to play 1-2 years and then he'll go too.
 

adil1972

Hall of Fame
Ostapenko. RG 17
two days past her 20th birthday. ranked only 47th. Yes, she was trying to become the first unseeded women's champion at the tournament since — get this — 1933. And yes, she was trying to become the first woman in nearly four decades to make a Grand Slam title the first tour-level triumph of her career.
Halep appeared headed for a runaway victory when up a set and 3-0 in the second, plus holding three break points for the chance to lead 4-0.
hum thnx for detail info buddy

why nobody here mention this before

i must have skipped it if it is already mentioned here
 
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It has been proven time and again that when Monica was on 0 slams Graf had 9 slams and then Monica reacheed 8 while Graf could add only 2 more slams in this period.

Nd this was when Seles was 19

If you are telling me a 19 year old without the stabbing in normal situations would not have become better in her 20s than thats like saying Nadal of 2006 was not going to get better in 2008 or 2010

Such ridiculous arguments can only be given by Graf fanatics because honestly I don't care whether Graf/Seles were great or not, both of them played tennis before I started watching Tennis, so I don't have a horse in this race, my opinion of Graf being a weak vulture is clearly based on evidence that I see and it is just an opinion that is a coincidence, not because I have a particular horse on which I have to bet, for all I am concerned Serena Williams is better than both Graf and Seles, so it is irrelevant on who is greater between Graf and Seles, however you seem to be concerned on why Seles is considered greater than audience than Steffi just like this @R. Schweikart
So thats your problem buddy.

For me Serena is the GOAT followed by Navratilova/Court/Evert then comes Seles and Graf, this order won't change. The longevity of Serena and Navratilova/Evert is too much to ignore and your Graf's stats are all are FAKE.
LOL there is no way on planet earth Seles can be ranked over Graf based on literally NOTHING but a what if. Nor would any expert place it as such. Tennis Channel had Graf ranked #3 all time (1 woman at the time) and Seles #19 (#8 woman at the time) for instance. And the only reason Seles was probably not even lower was the Channel seemed to act like greats from the 20s and 30s like Tilden, Wills, and Lenglen did not even exist. And I don't like either Graf or Seles FWIW.

I do agree QueenRena Williams is your female tennis GOAT at this point though. No argument there.
 

zvelf

Hall of Fame
Hasn't she played about 20 more slams than Graf and only has 1 more win ([ forget the exact number)?
Serena has played 25 more majors than Graf has. Serena has played 79 and Graf played 54. Interestingly, Graf has still played 10 more matches in her entire career than Serena has to date, which shows how much Serena saved herself for majors.

I would never rule Williams out from winning another. She probably still has more chance than Federer at this stage.
That's not saying much. I'd say Federer has about a 1% chance to win another major. Serena might have a 3% chance.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
We all know what would have happened if Seles was not stabbed. The numbers speak for themselves. it's amazing how certain members take these conversations so personally. You can't doubt her greatness, but you can doubt the number of majors she won. Seles was on a major roll prior to injury.
There is no such thing as a "roll" in women's tennis.

There were 8 other instances in women's tennis in the last 80 years when a player won 5-9 slams within two years and a few months (Seles won 7 between January 91 and January 93).
Now guess how many slams those players won in the next two years and a few months (the time Seles was out after the stabbing)?

1.5 slams.

And they didn't even have to cope with the GOAT coming out of a slump....
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
There is no such thing as a "roll" in women's tennis.

There were 8 other instances in women's tennis in the last 80 years when a player won 5-9 slams within two years and a few months (Seles won 7 between January 91 and January 93).
Now guess how many slams those players won in the next two years and a few months (the time Seles was out after the stabbing)?

1.5 slams.

And they didn't even have to cope with the GOAT coming out of a slump....
Doesn't mean she wouldn't have beaten Steffi.
 

silentkman

Professional
There is no such thing as a "roll" in women's tennis.

There were 8 other instances in women's tennis in the last 80 years when a player won 5-9 slams within two years and a few months (Seles won 7 between January 91 and January 93).
Now guess how many slams those players won in the next two years and a few months (the time Seles was out after the stabbing)?

1.5 slams.

And they didn't even have to cope with the GOAT coming out of a slump....
C.mon Man, you are letting your love for Graf get in the way of the facts. I would love to know the 8 instances, as far as I'm concern the AO doesn't count until the draw was at 128. How many players have won 8 majors before 20? Graf won 6 before 20. as I have stated, Seles was on major ROLL before being stab in the back. in addition, Graf was in that group of players that didn't want to give Seles a protected ranking at 1. fanaticism lives.
 
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Aabye5

Hall of Fame
Seles was always able to beat Steffi.
So were Navratilova, Sabatini, Sanchez.
My point is that even if Seles did not win more than 1.5 Slams, if she had beaten Steffi at all of them (assuming their rankings drop because neither defends their points) and wins none of them, Steffi would have less.

So even if you're right that Seles wasn't going to win more than 1.5 Slams or any at all, it's still very possible that Steffi wouldn't have won another, too.
 

DSH

G.O.A.T.
I've said it many times before, but her desire to be a mother kept her from surpassing Margaret Court's record.
If she was able to reach four GS finals after giving birth, aged over 36 and 37, let's imagine what she could have accomplished if she put off motherhood a little longer.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
I've said it many times before, but her desire to be a mother kept her from surpassing Margaret Court's record.
If she was able to reach four GS finals after giving birth, aged over 36 and 37, let's imagine what she could have accomplished if she put off motherhood a little longer.
I just wish she had done it 2 months SOONER so Venus could have won the 2017 AO :mad:
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
My point is that even if Seles did not win more than 1.5 Slams, if she had beaten Steffi at all of them (assuming their rankings drop because neither defends their points) and wins none of them, Steffi would have less.

So even if you're right that Seles wasn't going to win more than 1.5 Slams or any at all, it's still very possible that Steffi wouldn't have won another, too.
Your problem is that Steffi DID win those slams in 1993/95.
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
I've said it many times before, but her desire to be a mother kept her from surpassing Margaret Court's record.
If she was able to reach four GS finals after giving birth, aged over 36 and 37, let's imagine what she could have accomplished if she put off motherhood a little longer.
I mean I think we can all assume that Olympia wasn't a planned pregnancy? Right? Do others disagree? I am curious to see.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
I mean I think we can all assume that Olympia wasn't a planned pregnancy? Right? Do others disagree? I am curious to see.
Planned or not, she has become a celebrity in her own right. Which I find very odd.
Time will tell how she reacts to this as a teenager.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
LOL there is no way on planet earth Seles can be ranked over Graf based on literally NOTHING but a what if. Nor would any expert place it as such. Tennis Channel had Graf ranked #3 all time (1 woman at the time) and Seles #19 (#8 woman at the time) for instance. And the only reason Seles was probably not even lower was the Channel seemed to act like greats from the 20s and 30s like Tilden, Wills, and Lenglen did not even exist. And I don't like either Graf or Seles FWIW.

I do agree QueenRena Williams is your female tennis GOAT at this point though. No argument there.
Steffi Serena
1 Golden Grand Slam
zero
22 slams 23 slam
4 times FO/W/USO same year
once FO/W/USO same year
107 titles 73 titles
888-107 win/loss (89.25 %) 855-152 win/loss (84.91 %)
8 times YE #1 5 times YE #1
377 weeks #1 319 weeks #1

all-time classic slam finals: all-time classic slam finals:
88 Wim (Navratilova) none
92 FO (Seles - loss)
95 FO (Sanchez)
95 USO (Seles)
96 FO (Sanchez)
99 FO (Hingis)


It is not even close.
And yes, you all can stick your "woulda-coulda-shoulda" moaning where the sun don't shine.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
Yes, perhaps because her greatest rival was STABBED.
When her greatest rival most probably would have won only 1.5 of those 10 slams (you didn't like those stats, did you, lol?) I don't see much danger for Steffi.
Maybe she would have won one slam less, who knows?
So what?
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
When her greatest rival most probably would have won only 1.5 of those 10 slams (you didn't like those stats, did you, lol?) I don't see much danger for Steffi.
Maybe she would have won one slam less, who knows?
So what?
Like, I said, Seles didn't have to win them to prevent Steffi from winning them. That's what you're missing.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
You don't think Seles would have been top 2 for long?
I think if Seles would have played she would have won, your statistics be damned. She was that good, and some nutcase ruined it. It wasn't an injury, it was sabotage.

But even if you are right, and she didn't win, then her ranking might have dropped. And if she gets Steffi early, I think she takes her out more often than not.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
I think if Seles would have played she would have won, your statistics be damned. She was that good, and some nutcase ruined it. It wasn't an injury, it was sabotage.

But even if you are right, and she didn't win, then her ranking might have dropped. And if she gets Steffi early, I think she takes her out more often than not.
You think that with a possibly dropped ranking Seles would have taken Steffi out more often than not when even a #1-ranked Seles was 2-5 win/loss against Steffi?
Care to explain that??
 

Sunny014

Legend
Seles would have reached 18-19 slams by 1997, after that Hingis and others would have made it a bit tough for her to win, she might have crossed 20 even then.

Graf I am sure would have been stuck at around 14-15 mark if it wasn't for Gunter
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
You think that with a possibly dropped ranking Seles would have taken Steffi out more often than not when even a #1-ranked Seles was 2-5 win/loss against Steffi?
Care to explain that??
She beat her in three GS finals (losing once) before the attack! Yes, I do think she could have taken her out.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
She beat her in three GS finals (losing once) before the attack! Yes, I do think she could have taken her out.
Maybe you don't know that this was during Steffi's slump.
And you probably don't know that Steffi won more points than Seles in those 4 slam finals combined.

But isn't this thread about Serena's career fizzling out?
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
Maybe you don't know that this was during Steffi's slump.
And you probably don't know that Steffi won more points than Seles in those 4 slam finals combined.

But isn't this thread about Serena's career fizzling out?
The slump would have continued. Maybe you don't realize that Seles wasn't even 20 when she started dominating and when she was attacked. Her peak went up in flames. And maybe you also don't remember that winning more points in tennis doesn't mean you win the match. Or did you miss the Men's 2008 Wimbledon final?

And I just came in on the Seles-Graf conversation, I didn't bring it up.
 

R. Schweikart

Professional
The slump would have continued. Maybe you don't realize that Seles wasn't even 20 when she started dominating and when she was attacked. Her peak went up in flames. And maybe you also don't remember that winning more points in tennis doesn't mean you win the match. Or did you miss the Men's 2008 Wimbledon final?

And I just came in on the Seles-Graf conversation, I didn't bring it up.
Seles never dominated Steffi. Not even during Steffi`s slump.
Oh, and winning more points is a least strong evidence that you are not the worse player.

Seles fans have only one argument - she won 7 of 9 slams between 1991 and the stabbing.
So what?
Almost all players who had comparable runs weren't able to repeat that even remotely.
Why the heck would Seles (!) - with a dying father, eating disorder problems and the GOAT as her main opponent - have been the exception?
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
Seles never dominated Steffi. Not even during Steffi`s slump.
Oh, and winning more points is a least strong evidence that you are not the worse player.

Seles fans have only one argument - she won 7 of 9 slams between 1991 and the stabbing.
So what?
Almost all players who had comparable runs weren't able to repeat that even remotely.
Why the heck would Seles (!) - with a dying father, eating disorder problems and the GOAT as her main opponent - have been the exception?
Because Seles was great player, tapped by many to be potentially the greatest player ever. Like Serena, like Graf, like Navratilova, like Evert. Would she have won another after that loss? We'll never know, and not because of bad luck or an unfortunate injury or even because her father was dying. (And let's remember that Steffi had her own struggles with her father)


Yes, Seles' father was dying, and as we saw with Anisimova and Sampras with his coach, grief from an inexplicable and painful loss is debilitating. But both players were able to recover.

As far as the eating disorder, it cropped up at least part of it is BECAUSE of the stabbing (source below).

And this wasn't a freak accident, an illness, or an injury. Her career was literally stolen from her by a madman. And the only good thing is that he didn't kill her!
 

BGod

Legend
If we're talking peaks then Seles is clearly above Serena.

Williams has been mega hypes by media. Most of her career was vulturing a weak era. Nowhere near Evert/Graf/Martina
 

silentkman

Professional
When her greatest rival most probably would have won only 1.5 of those 10 slams (you didn't like those stats, did you, lol?) I don't see much danger for Steffi.
Maybe she would have won one slam less, who knows?
So what?
sheesh, seriously; Seles and Graf know the truth.
 
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