Serena's greatest rival?

[captainbryce]

Also if you asked Lindsay she would trade her own 2004 for Justine or Maria's in a heartbeat, her own 2001 for Jennifer or Venus's in a heartbeat, and her own 2005 for Clijsters's in a heartbeat. If you think otherwise you are delusional.

Why, did you ask her?

She even said herself at the end of each year she wasnt best player, just #1 ranked. Kind of like the new Hingis in that sense. Which is different than parts of 98 and 99, and early 2000, while ranked #1 where she said she did feel like the best player.

When did she say this? What source are you quoting from?

BTW Lindsay reached ZERO slam finals in 2004, not 2 slam finals. You need a serious refresher course.

Sorry, I meant 2005. I was conflating the two years in question. Regardless my point still stands. She won the most tournaments.

She also lost all her head to head meetings with the 2 women who won big tournaments that year- Justine and Maria.

Remember we are talking about a two year period. Yes, she has a losing record to Henin and Sharapova. I never said Davenport had a winning record over either of those players. The question is who was the best player in those years. And the year end ranking is the best indicator of that. Davenport went consistently further in slams and won the most tournaments. That makes her the best player for those years. It doesn't mean that she was the best player throughout the coarse of her career, or that she accomplished more overall than Henin or Sharapova. But I'm not actually suggesting that.

 

[Cenarius]

Herself.

 

[TERRASTAR18]

serena's greatest rival is the media.

 

[Vanhool]

Jelena Jankovic is hardly a cupcake draw, on a good day she can upset the best players.

JJ is no slouch, but we were talking grass...her worst surface and Petra's best. My point was that Petra's best surface and tournament is Wimbledon, and some were arguing that she was superior to Serena on grass because she won more recently. Petra has the weapons to demolish JJ on grass, but she faltered.

I'm not really judging...it happens, but she is generally inconsistant and American hardcourts are where she bombs out the worst! I know she is adversely affected by asthma here, but she's never been past R 4 at the USO (I'll only list her results since her Wimbledon breakout). USO 2011 R1 Dulgheru; 2012 R4 Bartoli (respectable but still an early exit), 2013 R3 Riske; 2014 R3 Krunic (a qualifier).

I'm thinking it doesn't matter if she has a cupcake draw. If she's on form she'll mow through the competition (except in form Serena), but once she starts with the Kvitty spray, it's all over. So, if she does make it to the final vs Serena, they should both be playing well and it would be epic. But I don't think she will, and if she does it won't be because of a cupcake draw.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

Venus pre-2010.

 

[AngieB]

If #Serena had not been injured and had personal issues to deal with from 2003-2007, the crooked-hand Belgian girl wouldn't have won half the grand slams she holds. Everyone knows it. Henin = poor moral values.

#GrannyIlluminati​

 

[generous50]

Most likely Venus.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

If #Serena had not been injured and had personal issues to deal with from 2003-2007, the crooked-hand Belgian girl wouldn't have won half the grand slams she holds. Everyone knows it. Henin = poor moral values.

#GrannyIlluminati​

I like you, Angie. I really do. You and I support the same people. But, I gotta say (and it pains me to do so) this is a crock of the ****.

And you may be right about the "moral values" aspect but that has no bearing on Henin's tennis whatsoever. Aside from one incident (RG 2003), whenever she beat Serena, she (Henin) did so fair and square. Besides, I'd say the RG 2003 "hand" incident has been cancelled out by what happened during the match between Serena and Vika at this year's RG.

# serena should have conceded the point

 

[TERRASTAR18]

I like you, Angie. I really do. You and I support the same people. But, I gotta say (and it pains me to do so) this is a crock of the ****.

And you may be right about the "moral values" aspect but that has no bearing on Henin's tennis whatsoever. Aside from one incident (RG 2003), whenever she beat Serena, she (Henin) did so fair and square. Besides, I'd say the RG 2003 "hand" incident has been cancelled out by what happened during the match between Serena and Vika at this year's RG.

# serena should have conceded the point

this is a ridiculous post. i could easily take away justine's non clay slams. no one is saying henin didn't win...the point is she benefitted from a weaker serena. and your vika point bis total nonsense.

 

[Man of steel]

I like you, Angie. I really do. You and I support the same people. But, I gotta say (and it pains me to do so) this is a crock of the ****.

And you may be right about the "moral values" aspect but that has no bearing on Henin's tennis whatsoever. Aside from one incident (RG 2003), whenever she beat Serena, she (Henin) did so fair and square. Besides, I'd say the RG 2003 "hand" incident has been cancelled out by what happened during the match between Serena and Vika at this year's RG.

# serena should have conceded the point

Lol the hand incident does nothing to cancel out the serena-vika incident. The umpire replayed the point and serena felt she was impeded by the line judge calling out. She even corrected the line judge saying it was in. Nouni replayed the point.

Which is totally different to when henin raised her hand during serena's service motion. The umpire asked henin whether she raised her hand or not and henin lied and cheated right to the umpires face. Two completely different situations. Henin has a history of cheating against other players. Serena doesn't. Huge difference.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Lol the hand incident does nothing to cancel out the serena-vika incident. The umpire replayed the point and serena felt she was impeded by the line judge calling out. She even corrected the line judge saying it was in. Nouni replayed the point.

Some will look for any (nonexistent) way to "even" the field between Henin and Serena, when Henin's real, open cheating still echoes to this day.

Henin has a history of cheating against other players. Serena doesn't. Huge difference.

Henin and her coach--at times, tag team of corruption, which made no sense, as Henin was a majors-level talent in any case. She did not need to scrape the bottom to help her career.

 

[boredone3456]

to address the 2004 and 2005 best player debate.

2004- 2004 was the year of the Russian Revolution where Myskina, Sharapova and Kuznetsova all won slams. Davenport ended the year number 1 in large part because of her consistency and her domination of the summer hard court season. to be fair though, she was screwed over at Wimbledon in 2004 because of rain. She was making mince meat of Maria before the break in the SF, the same Maria who barely and I mean BARELY survived her QF with Sugiyama. Davenport crushed everyone in the first ever US Open series(including finals victories over both Williams Sisters) and was the heavy favorite to win the 2004 US Open until she got injured in the SF vs Kuznetsova and lost. Her results the rest of the year were ok but not great. Probably the actual best player in 2004 would have to be Sharapova for winning Wimbledon and the YEC. It certainly wasn't Henin or Serena. Sharapova though started the year so far down and didn't do enough to rise all the way to the top of the rankings.

2005- this was the most competitive year in recent memory on the tour. You had 5 different people with the 5 biggest tournaments:
Serena AO
Henin French
Venus Wimby
Clijsters USO
Mauresmo YEC

Then you had Davenport and Pierce each reaching 2 major finals (they were the only ones to do this in 2005). Only Davenport reached the QFs or better at all for majors and all the majors winners did pretty badly at the majors they didn't win. Clijsters, who most give the year end number 1 to really, lost to Lindsay at both the French and Wimbledon in the rd of 16. Pierce reached 3 big finals when you add in the YEC so in all honesty you had 7 players who all could be argued as being the best that year. Davenport won the ranking because of consistency at the majors if you ask me because of what I said before of her being the only one to get to all 4 QFs or better. Honestly she was amazing at Wimbledon, she hurt her back in the final and Venus still had to play almost out of her mind to beat her. Lindsay screwed herself at the Aussie by playing both singles and doubles and for some reason needed like 3 hours to defeat Natalie Dechy in the SF. She came out lights out for one set against Serena than chugged out of fumes and died. Still though she had an amazing year. I don't hate her for being the year end number 1 in 2005, even though its majorly debatable.

 

[donquijote]

Alize Cornet. She won their last three meetings and 4-3 in H2H.
She could be the only player with a winning record against Serena.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

Lol the hand incident does nothing to cancel out the serena-vika incident. The umpire replayed the point and serena felt she was impeded by the line judge calling out. She even corrected the line judge saying it was in. Nouni replayed the point.

Which is totally different to when henin raised her hand during serena's service motion. The umpire asked henin whether she raised her hand or not and henin lied and cheated right to the umpires face. Two completely different situations. Henin has a history of cheating against other players. Serena doesn't. Huge difference.

If you say so.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

this is a ridiculous post. i could easily take away justine's non clay slams. no one is saying henin didn't win...the point is she benefitted from a weaker serena. and your vika point bis total nonsense.

Serena is undoubtedly a smarter tennis player now. But to say she was weaker back then is ridiculous. Plus, 8-6 h2h. No small feat considering Serena was in her prime.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

The call came after Serena hit the ball against Vika. Just saying. Replays show this. Serena didn't have to concede the point, but doing so would have been the morally correct thing to do. Listen, I'm a fan of Serena's but you gotta call it as it is.

When a player hits an ace and the umpire makes a late "out" call, do they replay the point or is the "out" call overruled?

 

[TERRASTAR18]

Serena is undoubtedly a smarter tennis player now. But to say she was weaker back then is ridiculous. Plus, 8-6 h2h. No small feat considering Serena was in her prime.

henin was an all time great but you have to remember serena was at her lowest level back then. talking about her prime is misleading when you saw how bad she was playing. henin beat bad serena,

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

henin was an all time great but you have to remember serena was at her lowest level back then. talking about her prime is misleading when you saw how bad she was playing. henin beat bad serena,

Bad? Serena was already in amongst the GOAT conversation during her rivalry with Henin. Perhaps not "the GOAT", but certainly one of the GOATs. In 2010, the last time she faced Henin, Serena was already in GS singles double digits. If that's bad, what do you consider good?

 

[TERRASTAR18]

The call came after Serena hit the ball against Vika. Just saying. Replays show this. Serena didn't have to concede the point, but doing so would have been the morally correct thing to do. Listen, I'm a fan of Serena's but you gotta call it as it is.

When a player hits an ace and the umpire makes a late "out" call, do they replay the point or is the "out" call overruled?

you are seeing things...it happened right when she hit it-

go to 4:52....

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

you are seeing things...it happened right when she hit it-

go to 4:52....

Read this article:http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/05/serena-williams-victoria-azarenka-second-set-line-call-argument

I've even saved you the trouble of copying and pasting the relevant excerpt for you:

"Just after Serena had hit the ball, a call of “out” rang out from one of the linesmen. Chair umpire Kader Nouni came down from his perch and confirmed the ball was good. Because Serena had hit the ball before the call, it should have been Azarenka’s point and another deuce. But Nouni called it differently, believing Serena’s shot was hindered by the call (replay proved otherwise) and calling for a replay of the point."

It's perfectly understandable if this doesn't convince you. You won't be the first or the last fan to be blinded by loyalty on this forum, or even in the world.

 

[Smasher08]

Serena's greatest rival? J-Lo

(think about it)

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

Here's another article with a replay of the call, referring to it not just as late, but in fact "super" late.
http://www.tennisnow.com/News/2015/May/After-Tough-Loss-to-Serena-Williams,-Azarenka-Make.aspx

 

[TERRASTAR18]

Bad? Serena was already in amongst the GOAT conversation during her rivalry with Henin. Perhaps not "the GOAT", but certainly one of the GOATs. In 2010, the last time she faced Henin, Serena was already in GS singles double digits. If that's bad, what do you consider good?

2003-didn't play after wimbledon, had knee surgery
2004-didn't comeback till miami, lost wimbeldon to maria, her ranking dropped out of the top 10, missed the olympics,lost to maria at yec due to an ab injury.
2005- won aussie open, only played 2 tournaments before the french,missed french due to ankle injury,lost to jil craybas of all ppl at wimbledon,then her sister at the us.
2006-was depressed, missed 6 months and her ranking dropped to 139,missing french and wimbledon, mauresmo beat her at the us.
2007-a better season.

so again where was this goat play from serena?

 

[Man of steel]

Bad? Serena was already in amongst the GOAT conversation during her rivalry with Henin. Perhaps not "the GOAT", but certainly one of the GOATs. In 2010, the last time she faced Henin, Serena was already in GS singles double digits. If that's bad, what do you consider good?

What are you talking about. Serena in 07 is what we are a talking about. Serena in 07 was nowhere near her level in of 02/03. She came back from outside the top 100 the previous year. Still fat an nowhere near as fit as serena of 4 years prior. A serena who was barely on the tour in 06 while henin reached all 4 finals that year and continued or dominance in 07. Their peaks never really met unless you count their matchups at wimby 03 and FO 03. But other than that they were never at their best at the same time.

 

[TERRASTAR18]

Here's another article with a replay of the call, referring to it not just as late, but in fact "super" late.
http://www.tennisnow.com/News/2015/May/After-Tough-Loss-to-Serena-Williams,-Azarenka-Make.aspx

it happened midswing...

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

2003-didn't play after wimbledon, had knee surgery
2004-didn't comeback till miami, lost wimbeldon to maria, her ranking dropped out of the top 10, missed the olympics,lost to maria at yec due to an ab injury.
2005- won aussie open, only played 2 tournaments before the french,missed french due to ankle injury,lost to jil craybas of all ppl at wimbledon,then her sister at the us.
2006-was depressed, missed 6 months and her ranking dropped to 139,missing french and wimbledon, mauresmo beat her at the us.
2007-a better season.

so again where was this goat play from serena?

You really think I'm going to waste my time answering such a ridiculous question?

 

[TERRASTAR18]

Read this article:http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/05/serena-williams-victoria-azarenka-second-set-line-call-argument

I've even saved you the trouble of copying and pasting the relevant excerpt for you:

"Just after Serena had hit the ball, a call of “out” rang out from one of the linesmen. Chair umpire Kader Nouni came down from his perch and confirmed the ball was good. Because Serena had hit the ball before the call, it should have been Azarenka’s point and another deuce. But Nouni called it differently, believing Serena’s shot was hindered by the call (replay proved otherwise) and calling for a replay of the point."

It's perfectly understandable if this doesn't convince you. You won't be the first or the last fan to be blinded by loyalty on this forum, or even in the world.

an article is not video of the event...the only biased person is yourself to use 1 correct call to try to coverup vika's mental weakness.

 

[TERRASTAR18]

Looool. You're a joke!!!

insults because you are biased?

 

[TERRASTAR18]

You really think I'm going to waste my time answering such a ridiculous question?

because you can't.....

 

[Man of steel]

You really think I'm going to waste my time answering such a ridiculous question?

How is it a ridiculous question when those were the events that happened.
He also forgot to mention the death of yetunde which it took serena a long time to come to terms with as it was one of the reasons for serena's lack of motivation in those years which lead to depression and binge eating in those years

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

insults because you are biased?

LOOOOOOOL. How am I biased? Just because I don't have my head stuck up so far up Serena's ass as you clearly do?

FYI, I'm a huge Serena fan. AngieB and Pirates (the guy or girl who is always starting a thread on Serena every other day) can confirm.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

How is it a ridiculous question when those were the events that happened.
He also forgot to mention the death of yetunde which it took serena a long time to come to terms with as it was one of the reasons for serena's lack of motivation in those years which lead to depression and binge eating in those years

Hey! Stop piggy-backing another person's posts just to get some acknowledgement. Wait your turn. I'll get to you if and when I see fit.

 

[TERRASTAR18]

LOOOOOOOL. How am I biased? Just because I don't have my head stuck up so far up Serena's ass as you clearly do?

FYI, I'm a huge Serena fan. AngieB and Pirates (the guy or girl who is always starting a thread on Serena every other day) can confirm.

biased because you can't see facts.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

biased because you can't see facts.

Ookay.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

How is it a ridiculous question when those were the events that happened.
He also forgot to mention the death of yetunde which it took serena a long time to come to terms with as it was one of the reasons for serena's lack of motivation in those years which lead to depression and binge eating in those years

Her sister's murder shattered Serena, so as noted above, that cannot be forgotten or underestimated in its effect on her life and career.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

Her sister's murder shattered Serena, so as noted above, that cannot be forgotten or underestimated in its effect on her life and career.

Sigh. How did we get here? How is this relevant to the discussion I was having with Terra of whether Henin beat Serena in the latter's prime and whether Serena should have conceded the point at the FO to Azarenka.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

The answer is no, Henin did not beat Serena in her prime. The timeline posted here illustrates the "when and how." Regarding the FO/Vika match, that video is pretty clear, and there's no official intervention that concluded Serena did anything wrong. I'm not sure why you are trying to place so much weight on her shoulders as though she willfully committed an act of wrongdoing.

 

[tennis_pro]

The h2h between Serena and Elena Dementieva in 2007-2010 is 6-3 for Dementieva (should've been 7-2, really).

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

The answer is no, Henin did not beat Serena in her prime. The timeline posted here illustrates the "when and how." Regarding the FO/Vika match, that video is pretty clear, and there's no official intervention that concluded Serena did anything wrong. I'm not sure why you are trying to place so much weight on her shoulders as though she willfully committed an act of wrongdoing.

Really? Serena was 25 in 2007. Henin beat her three times in a row and not just in some minor tournaments. She beat her in three consecutive quarter finals, played in three consecutive grand slams (RG, Wimbledon and USO), played on three different surfaces (clay, grass and hard court).

RG 2007 QF: Henin v Williams - winner: Henin
Wimbledon 2007 QF: Henin v Williams - winner: Henin
US Open 2007 QF: Henin v Williams - winner: Henin

That's almost as good as Djokovic pummelling Nadal from Wimbledon 2011 to Australian Open 2012.


The h2h is 8-6 for crying out loud!!! You know what? I don't even know why I'm still talking to you. I don't need to convince you of anything (and I'm not trying to). Besides, the majority of the people who have voted on the poll above, "Serena's greatest rival", elected Henin. So, it's a moot point really.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

The answer is no, Henin did not beat Serena in her prime. The timeline posted here illustrates the "when and how." Regarding the FO/Vika match, that video is pretty clear, and there's no official intervention that concluded Serena did anything wrong. I'm not sure why you are trying to place so much weight on her shoulders as though she willfully committed an act of wrongdoing.

I'm neither doing nor trying to do that. I'm just saying the right thing, the sporting thing, to do would have been to concede the point. Smyczek didn't have to give Rafa another first serve. But he did. Djokovic concedes many points on replay. These are classy acts of true champions. Serena should have followed suit. I mean, I don't blame her for not conceding the point. One, she didn't have to and two, she was on the edge. Vika had put her to the edge. Serena wasn't about to help Vika win, now was she?

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

Ookay.

Sarcasm obviously missed.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

For the rest of Henin's career, Serena begrudged her the hand incident. I wonder if Vika will do the same.

 

[Man of steel]

I'm neither doing nor trying to do that. I'm just saying the right thing, the sporting thing, to do would have been to concede the point. Smyczek didn't have to give Rafa another first serve. But he did. Djokovic concedes many points on replay. These are classy acts of true champions. Serena should have followed suit. I mean, I don't blame her for not conceding the point. One, she didn't have to and two, she was on the edge. Vika had put her to the edge. Serena wasn't about to help Vika win, now was she?

Yeah and the majority of players don't give the point. The same thing happened to Fed at RG.
The umpire made the decision. Replaying the point put the point back at a level playing field where both players were unsure. Vika lost that match because she was too mentally weak. She let a 4-2 lead slip and a 2-0 lead in the third set slip again. So the point didn't affect her in the third set did it when she came storming right out of the box in the 3rd set. That point affect serena more than anyhting in the beginning of the 3rd set. But as usual serena raised her level and vika mentally folded.

 

[mattosgrant]

What I don't get is why Capriati has almost no votes on this poll. She and Serena had many memorable battles, and she was Serena's nemesis for quite awhile.

 

[TERRASTAR18]

Really? Serena was 25 in 2007. Henin beat her three times in a row and not just in some minor tournaments. She beat her in three consecutive quarter finals, played in three consecutive grand slams (RG, Wimbledon and USO), played on three different surfaces (clay, grass and hard court).

RG 2007 QF: Henin v Williams - winner: Henin
Wimbledon 2007 QF: Henin v Williams - winner: Henin
US Open 2007 QF: Henin v Williams - winner: Henin

That's almost as good as Djokovic pummelling Nadal from Wimbledon 2011 to Australian Open 2012.


The h2h is 8-6 for crying out loud!!! You know what? I don't even know why I'm still talking to you. I don't need to convince you of anything (and I'm not trying to). Besides, the majority of the people who have voted on the poll above, "Serena's greatest rival", elected Henin. So, it's a moot point really.

we are talking about level of play.....was djoker in his early 20's as good as he is now?

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Yeah and the majority of players don't give the point. The same thing happened to Fed at RG.
The umpire made the decision. Replaying the point put the point back at a level playing field where both players were unsure.

I do not understand why he argues that--this is no "honor" situation, and was settled as it should have been--by the official. Again, I think its trying to find anything to criticise SW, when--as you point out...

She let a 4-2 lead slip and a 2-0 lead in the third set slip again. So the point didn't affect her in the third set did it when she came storming right out of the box in the 3rd set.

Vika was at no disadvantage in that match. That one act of the umpire clearly did not stop Vika's momentum.

 

[mattosgrant]

Henin vs Serena talks always get almost as ugly as Graf vs Seles ones.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

Deleted post.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

Yeah and the majority of players don't give the point.

By that logic, I could say it was absurd for Serena to hold the "hand incident" against Henin because the fact is, most players would not have owned up to it.

 

[Levi_Ackerman]

we are talking about level of play.....was djoker in his early 20's as good as he is now?

Are we? I thought we were talking about Serena conceding that point that should have been Vika's.