Serena's ommision from female GOAT discussions in part due to racism?

[Ronaldo]

According to the OP, having dark skin is worth AT LEAST 100 singles titles!

Or at least 65 HR in a season? http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/11/11/alg_sosa_sammy_sonia.jpg

 

[samster]

Serena is racist towards Asian line Umps.

That could be a possibility.

 

[Mick]

sure racism exists but it's not to the degree that the OP suggests (we elected Obama)

secondly, serena is already among the goat. the fact that people recognize her name by her first name, speaks volume.

 

[raiden031]

First of all I white, so how on earth would I be racist towards Serena. I just happen to give Serena her due and look past shallow things like the color of her skin which some are unable to do.

Here's why you are racist. You are making a meritless accusation that "people" are racially bias against Serena because she is not discussed as a GOAT contender. Here is what I can deduct from this statement. The majority of people involved in pro tennis, whether it be sports commentators, governing body members, former players, etc. are white. You are basically generalizing these people as a whole as being racist.

You are basically generalizing a group of people of a certain race (white) with having some negative attribute (being racist). Therefore you are exhibiting racism against these people, and hence are racist. Even if you are the same race as them, it doesn't matter.

 

[drakulie]

I just happen to give Serena her due and look past shallow things like the color of her skin which some are unable to do.

Serena shouldnt be banned. She was the one robbed of a possible U.S Open title by a racist little line judge.

Hmmm. Interesting.

 

[raiden031]

Hmmm. Interesting.

Wow I didn't catch that...even the line judge is racist?

 

[TMF]

The OP is just being insecure b/c there’s nothing about the unfairness to Serena. The fact is her achievement is vastly inferior to the past great players. If Serena ever wins 18GS, and all of her stats proximate them, but doesn’t get the same recognition as the other greats, then the OP has a point. However, there no way Serena can ever match them and that’s why the OP is quickly to make it as a racist excuse. It doesn’t matter if Serena is black or white, she is worthy to be consider a Tier II great, not up there with Martina, Graf, Chris or Court. Far from it.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

more biased than:
- discounting all of graf's grandslams post-seles stabbing?

Don't be obtuse; Seles effectively being taken out like a light at the height of her powers certainly helped the remainder of Graf's career. There is no real way to underestimate how much of a history-changer Seles' stabbing was for the women's game and Graf on a personal level at that time.

we should be talking about racism only if (and when) serena wins 18+ slams, and she still then is not part of the GOAT discussion. Her accomplishments, as they stand today, are not GOAT-worthy.

Cuddles may have called her a contender for overall GOAT, but i'm saying she is--without question--one of the greatest women ever to play the game, and part of a rare "club." Anyone else--male of female--with 11 slams is routinely considered one of the GOAT, so for all of the breathless attempts to rob SW of this oft-used distinction carries the (predicted) stench of bias, if not flat-out racism--especially with the history of racists posts on this board.

Until then all this "racism" talk is biased BS.

Only one with eyes shut would attempt to dismiss the glaring racism SW has faced over the years--which is omnipresent on the TT boards.

 

[Chadwixx]

Serena is the womens all time money leader, you gotta be pretty stupid to think there is racism.

 

[NamRanger]

Don't be obtuse; Seles effectively being taken out like a light at the height of her powers certainly helped the remainder of Graf's career. There is no real way to underestimate how much of a history-changer Seles' stabbing was for the women's game and Graf on a personal level at that time.




Cuddles may have called her a contender for overall GOAT, but i'm saying she is--without question--one of the greatest women ever to play the game, and part of a rare "club." Anyone else--male of female--with 11 slams is routinely considered one of the GOAT, so for all of the breathless attempts to rob SW of this oft-used distinction carries the (predicted) stench of bias, if not flat-out racism--especially with the history of racists posts on this board.





Only one with eyes shut would attempt to dismiss the glaring racism SW has faced over the years--which is omnipresent on the TT boards.

Prove that racism against Serena Williams exist on this forum (actual racism, not trolling).

 

[drakulie]

Don't be obtuse; Seles effectively being taken out like a light at the height of her powers certainly helped the remainder of Graf's career. There is no real way to underestimate how much of a history-changer Seles' stabbing was for the women's game and Graf on a personal level at that time.

so what?? Graf still had to win those slams. They weren't handed to her.

Cuddles may have called her a contender for overall GOAT, but i'm saying she is--without question--one of the greatest women ever to play the game, and part of a rare "club." Anyone else--male of female--with 11 slams is routinely considered one of the GOAT,

agreed.

so for all of the breathless attempts to rob SW of this oft-used distinction carries the (predicted) stench of bias, if not flat-out racism--especially with the history of racists posts on this board.

Hmmm, so anyone who says "fed isn't the GOAT", even though he has more slams than anyone in the History of the ATP is racist??

Nice. real nice. :roll:

Only one with eyes shut would attempt to dismiss the glaring racism SW has faced over the years--which is omnipresent on the TT boards.

I didn't realize facing racism, resulted in being a GOAT. In that case, Althea Gibson is the GOAT, and Serena is a spoiled little baby who has it way better than any of use white folks on the board, or any of the past great black champions (and non-champions) who paved the way for her sorry ass.

 

[fed_rulz]

Don't be obtuse; Seles effectively being taken out like a light at the height of her powers certainly helped the remainder of Graf's career. There is no real way to underestimate how much of a history-changer Seles' stabbing was for the women's game and Graf on a personal level at that time.

that's not a reason to discount her slam wins because they were not against Seles. Graf was still leading the h2h over seles when seles was taken out. suppose seles was not stabbed, and graf/seles ended up splitting the 11 GS graf won after the stabbign incident as 6-5, you still have graf with 16 and seles with 15. Wayyyy ahead of SW - so again, SW does not warrant a mention in the GOAT discussion AS THINGS STAND TODAY.

Cuddles may have called her a contender for overall GOAT, but i'm saying she is--without question--one of the greatest women ever to play the game, and part of a rare "club." Anyone else--male of female--with 11 slams is routinely considered one of the GOAT, so for all of the breathless attempts to rob SW of this oft-used distinction carries the (predicted) stench of bias, if not flat-out racism--especially with the history of racists posts on this board.

Only one with eyes shut would attempt to dismiss the glaring racism SW has faced over the years--which is omnipresent on the TT boards.

See, this is the problem I have with race-related discussions on this board. We are not debating if SW has ever faced racism or not; it's about whether SW has been excluded from the GOAT discussions due to her race. BIG DIFFERENCE. Please do not deviate from the original discussion.

SW might have been a victim of racism, but that has no bearing on the GOAT discussions. As of today, she does not deserve a place among the GOAT candidates.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Prove that racism against Serena Williams exist on this forum (actual racism, not trolling).

Don't try to erase racism by calling some of it "trolling." Anyone--no matter the motive--posting crap like posts seen from Chadwixx and others (paraphrasing overt comments from some about "you can take the person out of the ghetto, but not the ghetto out of the person," etc.) is racism, as no sane, moral person would post such crap. Do not play games.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

that's not a reason to discount her slam wins because they were not against Seles.

Oh, really? Because the last time I checked, many SW-hatrers on this board routinely try to lessen the value of many of SW's slams due to a selective criticism of her opponents. If it applies to one, it applies to all in this regard, so the absence of Seles opened a mile-wide door of opportunity for Graf, as the remainder of the competiton surely was not in Seles' class as a Graf-challenger/beater.

Graf was still leading the h2h over seles when seles was taken out. suppose seles was not stabbed, and graf/seles ended up splitting the 11 GS graf won after the stabbign incident as 6-5, you still have graf with 16 and seles with 15. Wayyyy ahead of SW - so again, SW does not warrant a mention in the GOAT discussion AS THINGS STAND TODAY.

"Wayyy ahead?" Hardly. She's at 11 right now, and I can see her winning slams at least for another 3 (or 4 years), which would close and pass that gap if she maintains current (2009) slam form. Who can bet against, since she's not as injury-wracked as (for one example) her sister.

See, this is the problem I have with race-related discussions on this board. We are not debating if SW has ever faced racism or not; it's about whether SW has been excluded from the GOAT discussions due to her race. BIG DIFFERENCE. Please do not deviate from the original discussion.

Race has been a part of that--as I pointed out yesterday.

SW might have been a victim of racism, but that has no bearing on the GOAT discussions.

...depending on the perosn you're thinking of.

 

[drakulie]

"Wayyy ahead?" Hardly. She's at 11 right now,

OK, so she is not even close. Come back in 3-4 years and if she is closer or ahead, then you have a claim she is GOAT.

 

[fed_rulz]

Oh, really? Because the last time I checked, many SW-hatrers on this board routinely try to lessen the value of many of SW's slams due to a selective criticism of her opponents. If it applies to one, it applies to all in this regard, so the absence of Seles opened a mile-wide door of opportunity for Graf, as the remainder of the competiton surely was not in Seles' class as a Graf-challenger/beater.

show me posts which discounts SW's slam wins

"Wayyy ahead?" Hardly. She's at 11 right now, and I can see her winning slams at least for another 3 (or 4 years), which would close and pass that gap if she maintains current (2009) slam form. Who can bet against, since she's not as injury-wracked as (for one example) her sister.

5 or 6 slams is "wayy ahead". And if (& when) she wins slams for the next few years, then we can have this discussion. until then she does not deserve to be in the GOAT mix. racism has nothing to do with her exclusion.

Race has been a part of that--as I pointed out yesterday.

...depending on the perosn you're thinking of.

no in this case it does NOT.

 

[NamRanger]

Don't try to erase racism by calling some of it "trolling." Anyone--no matter the motive--posting crap like posts seen from Chadwixx and others (paraphrasing overt comments from some about "you can take the person out of the ghetto, but not the ghetto out of the person," etc.) is racism, as no sane, moral person would post such crap. Do not play games.

So you stereotype this whole forum by the posts of a few, who are in the minority? Sounds like a hypocrite to me.



A. You don't even know what racism is as evidence to the example you just used.

B. Serena Williams may have faced discrimination, but I highly doubt she has received full blown racism that you seem to think she receives. You want racism? Try looking through a history book sometime.

C. Serena Williams is not a contender for the title of the greatest of all time because her career is not over yet. It has nothing to do with race, discrimination, etc.



By the way, what you just posted from Chad is just stereotyping and at worst discrimination, not racism. In no way did Chad make any direct reference to Serena's race. You just inferred that "ghetto" is linked to Serena's race. Ghetto does not have to refer to race; it can be used as a reference towards attitude and behaviors of a person. At worst Chad was discriminating against "ghetto" people (which can include Blacks, Whites, Asians, Hispanics, Middle Eastern, etc). Examples of non-black "ghetto" people include Johnny Dang, Paul Wall, and Eminem.



Before you start trying to accuse people on this forum of racism, why don't you actually learn what racism is before you start trying to go on an Al Sharpton crusade on these forums.

 

[r2473]

The Boy Who Cried Wolf, also known as The Shepherd Boy and the Wolf, is a fable attributed to Aesop (210 in Perry's numbering system.[1]) The protagonist of the fable is a bored shepherd boy who entertained himself by calling out "Wolf!" Nearby villagers who came to his rescue found that the alarms were false and that they had wasted their time. When the boy was actually confronted by a wolf, the villagers did not believe his cries for help and the wolf ate the flock (and in some versions the boy). The moral is stated at the end of the fable as:

Even when liars tell the truth, they are never believed. The liar will lie once, twice, and then perish when he tells the truth.

 

[grafselesfan]

and graf/seles ended up splitting the 11 GS graf won after the stabbign incident as 6-5, you still have graf with 16 and seles with 15.

This is a dumb way to look at it since there were a few slams that other players won after the Seles stabbing. These were even bigger certainties for Seles than the ones Graf won. Or another way of looking at it would anyone win a slam other than Graf or Seles with both playing from 93-96? Probably not, or 1 for someone at most. So if you want to split then give each of them 7 (leaving 1 for Sanchez or Pierce maybe) and at the end of 96 Graf would have 18 and Seles 15. Graf though contended for slams again in 99 and Seles would have for another few years so most likely both end up with around 18-19 as opposed to 15-16.

 

[drakulie]

show me posts which discounts SW's slam wins



5 or 6 slams is "wayy ahead". And if (& when) she wins slams for the next few years, then we can have this discussion. until then she does not deserve to be in the GOAT mix. racism has nothing to do with her exclusion.



no in this case it does NOT.

actually, Myskina is the GOAT. She is young, and may come back to tennis, so she could possibly catch up. Therefore, she is GOAT, and anyone who disagrees is being racist.

 

[fed_rulz]

actually, Myskina is the GOAT. She is young, and may come back to tennis, so she could possibly catch up. Therefore, she is GOAT, and anyone who disagrees is being racist.

LOL.. agreed

 

[Dave M]

Grass is Court's best surface. Hard courts is Serena's. Yet Serena has already matched the # of Wimbledon titles that Court won in her career with more to come.


With Henin and Clijsters back, and Maria getting healthy again, it will be hard for anyone to bring up the weak era argument anymore, and Serena will just infuriate the haters that much more if she keeps winning vs those 3 back on tour and as her main competition.

Grass and hard courts were very diferent back then,(to each other) you had to have a different skill set to win on them.

It'll be good to see 3 more ex champs back as so far she played one returning not match fit champ and lost.(no don't bring up the foot fault it was a single point penalty she was loosing anyway)I honestly hope that for the sake of the WTA all 4 get fit healthy and playing.We'll see at the end of their careers who is judged to be the best of this generation then irrespective of race/colour etc.
I met SW at Wimbledon this year, spoke briefly she was polite friendly to my family and I,only a couple of hours before the womens final too. seemed somehow different to what i expected "in the flesh" as it were.

Serena is the womens all time money leader, you gotta be pretty stupid to think there is racism.

I do find myself wondering if Graf and Navratalova had won their titles in equal prize money era how they'd compare to current stars in that respect.

 

[Serendipitous]

Omission, not ommision...

 

[Steffi-forever]

November 11, 2009

Actually before the horrific Seles stabbing Graf had 11 slams, same as Serena now. So no you dont know if Graf would still have more, let alone if she would have been able to get more than Serena might end up with.
It is obviously sad a player who had GOAT potential...

September 21, 2009

Seles is one of the most overrated players of all time. She got super lucky to peak during a bigtime Graf slump, that Sanchez Vicario has a mental block vs her and plays to about 20% of her potential when they play, that Sabatini always choked in the slams vs Monica, that Capriati was a baby back then, that Martina was ancient by then, that Conchita Martinez sucks, and that Novotna and Pierce werent in her primes and seriously contending yet. Venus, Serena, Hingis, (and even turtle slow Davenport) all exposed her limited and mediocre skill set for what it really was upon her return. Seles actually was hitting the ball much harder and had a much better serve after the stabbing than before. She was a bit more out of shape but overall was better but the others were just alot better by then.

Serena Williams is really a better clay courter than Henin. Serena right now should have 4 French Opens and Henin only 1. Lets break it down:

2002 French- Serena won

2003 French- Justine won only by cheating. Serena is the real French Open winner of 2003.

2005 French- Kuznetsova choked away a match point in the 4th round. Henin should have been gone and 1 of Kuznetsova, Sharapova, or Petrova winning that years French over choking Pierce in final.

2006- Justine legitimately won

2007 French- Justine only won since Serena had an off day in the quarters. Serena and Justine both playing their best Serena would always win even on clay.

2009 French- Serena should have won. She choked in the 3rd set vs Kuznetsova

September 20 about the greatest female Belgium player of all time

Like I said most accomplished does not have to equal the greatest. If it does to many that is fine and I understand it. However there are many factors that go into achievements- level of competition, matchups, the conditions at the time suited to your style, and the vagarities of time, place, and chance.

I have watched all 4 play and I rate them as far as actual playing ability:

1. Van Roost
2. Henin
3. Appelmans
4. Clijsters

Great posts/threads!!!

BTW, Serena is not a GOAT contender because of her ranking history (spends overall only 2 years in the top 2 on the WTA ranking), because she didn't win enough titles yet and because of all those awful loss against non top 10 players. Graf spends 10 years and 3 months STRAIGHT in the top 2 , Navi and Evert are close to 10 years overall too. It doesn't matter if she is black or white. I don't care anyway.

This is the same thing I posted for you in an another thread. I hope you understand this time :

Chris Evert :
18 Grand Slam singles titles
7 Roland Garros
158 titles
34 Grand Slam finals
52 Grand Slam semifinals
125 consecutive wins on clay

Martina Navratilova
18 Grand Slam singles titles
9 Wimbledon
167 titles
Won 74 consecutive matches
19 consecutive Grand Slam semifinals
6 consecutive Grand Slam titles

Steffi Graf
22 Grand Slam singles titles
The most Hardcourt Slams
8 Year-end at #1 and most weeks at #1
13 consecutive Grand Slam finals
Won every Grand Slam title 4 times each
Golden Slam

Serena Williams
11 Grand Slam titles
4 Australian Open titles (Tie with Court, Goolagong, Graf and Seles)
Unseeded Grand Slam Winner (Australian Open 2007) (Tie with O'Neil)
Highest Career earning
Highest Single Year Earning
Highest streak of consecutive initial Grand Slam finals won (Doubles) (10)

 

[cuddles26]

Steffi-forever is a worthless troll and should be banned.

 

[LDVTennis]

Speaking of Graf here is something interesting to peak at, particularly in a thread about Serena:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE6a...2669164A&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=27

While it was a very close win for Serena, Graf often looked like a rag doll vs all of Serena's power...

Graf's timing was perfect. She came into her prime just around the same point Navratilova and Evert were aging out of theirs...

Navratilova likewise also had great timing. She came into her own and won nearly all her slams after Court and King were already retired, well in King's case playing at nearly 40 on butchered knees, and when Goolagong and Evert were already past her prime, and when Graf and Sabatini were pre pubescent teenagers not close to their primes yet.

Please make it stop. It is hurting my head. Can anyone be this stupid?

By the way, I was at the 1999 IW Final. Steffi did not play well. She was so tentative and yet in a testament to her greatness she won the second set and was up a break in the third. I really thought she was going to serve it out, but then her confidence dipped again and the rest is history.

I do have a funny story about the tournament. It is a bit off-topic, but seeing as it has something to do with Serena not by much.

The first time I saw Serena she was practicing with her sister and her father at the primary practice court at the Hyatt Grand Champions. That was the site of the tournament before it moved down the road. Those who remember the old tournament site will remember that the practice court was across the main pathway from the stadium, adjacent to the main snack bar. I miss the intimacy of that venue.

But, back to the story. I sat down in the metal bleachers on the side of the court. Serena was wearing these black stretch, form-fitting shorts. I remember thinking to myself--- That's one big (fat) girl, with quite a behind.

About 10 minutes later, this man in his 20's shows up with a buddy of his and sits down above me. He's there for about 2 minutes before he exclaims at a volume we could all here. "Man, she has an enormous butt." Everyone in the stands started to laugh. Obviously, we had all been thinking the same thing.

Serena must have heard him too because she stared with this sneer on her face over at where I was sitting. Today, I guess I feel quite fortunate that she didn't come over to where we were sitting and threaten to shove a ball down our throats.

 

[JankovicFan]

<> It is clear to me racism has alot to do with her constant ommision from the greatest female player ever discussions.

False conclusion. You stated no evidence whatsoever, only your conclusion. You told us what you already think but not why. One could reasonably assume you have a racial bias for even bringing it up. The issue is spurious anyway, because we obviously will not be allowed to discuss it candidly, everyone needing to dance around the real issues and be politically correct. We can't even use the formal names of races on this website. I politely tried, and my post went poof!

 

[LDVTennis]

Steffi-forever is a worthless troll and should be banned.

Seems to me like Steffi-forever proved you were the troll. So do us all a favor and ban yourself.

 

[TMF]

Steffi-forever is a worthless troll and should be banned.

Steffi-lover gave you a nice outline of each player’s career numbers. Why don’t you counter his argument instead of just calling him a troll.

 

[Kenny022593]

Hey Kenny, I know I said your thread was the worst this year. I was wrong

This means so much to me lol

 

[Kenny022593]

If you like this thread check out this one

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=297079

 

[raiden031]

False conclusion. You stated no evidence whatsoever, only your conclusion. You told us what you already think but not why. One could reasonably assume you have a racial bias for even bringing it up. The issue is spurious anyway, because we obviously will not be allowed to discuss it candidly, everyone needing to dance around the real issues and be politically correct. We can't even use the formal names of races on this website. I politely tried, and my post went poof!

I guess the reasoning provided is that all 6 players who have won more singles slam titles than Serena deserve an asterisk next to their achievements, unlike Serena who is has the 'real' achievements.

 

[nereis]

Arthur Ashe isn't mentioned as a GOAT because his achievements on-court do not warrant it. Michael Chang likewise isn't mentioned because his career is overshadowed by others better than him. Williams:11, Graf:22, 22>11. The Grand Slam: Williams=0, Graf=1, 1>0. Year end no.1, don't even get me started. Williams is the best player of this decade, but not of all time.

 

[AndrewD]

Navratilova or Graf the greatest ever? Navratilova won half her slams at one slam, and Graf won half of them after her main rival was stabbed.

and, out of Serena's total of 11 majors, 4 were won before Justin Henin emerged on the scene and 3 were won after she retired. When Henin was at her best, Williams just picked up the scraps.

 

[jamesblakefan#1]

and, out of Serena's total of 11 majors, 4 were won before Justin Henin emerged on the scene and 3 were won after she retired. When Henin was at her best, Williams just picked up the scraps.

True, but let's not be mistaken. Serena's best >>>>> Henin's best.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Navratilova (18 slams)- Well for starters even though Wimbledon is the greatest event in the World, that she won half of her 18 slams at Wimbledon is a mark against her versatility and worthiness to be the greatest ever if we are talking beyond just grass. It doesnt reflect well on her completeness to have managed only the same # of slams at 3 combined slams played on red clay, green clay/mostly fast hard courts, and slow grass/slow hard courts as just 1 slam played on fast grass. Relativel speaking her abilities to win across all surfaces look rather limited for someone who would be the greatest ever.

Navratilova won 9 slams outside of Wimbledon. Serena thus far has 8 slams outside of Wimbledon. Pretty simple. Navratilova dominated at Wimbledon and was a force at the other slams. Serena is a force at all slams but hasn't dominated any one slam.

By your logic, Navratilova would've been better had she won less Wimbledons: she still would have been on par with Serena slam-wise even if she only won three of them, but would also have 5x the amount of singles titles, and would have been just as 'versatile.'

Oh and you're delusional if you think Graf would have ended up with 11 slams.

 

[LafayetteHitter]

When people talk about the greatest female tennis player of all time they mention Navratilova or Graf mostly. On occasion you hear the names Evert, Court, Wills, Lenglen, and Connolly brought up. And for those whiny "what if" babies only Seles on occasion. While many acknowledge Serena as a top 10 player all time nobody discusses her as even a candidate for the greatest female tennis player ever. To me this is simply ridiculous. I dont expect everyone to agree she is the greatest ever, but she should atleast be in the discussion and considered for that title. It is clear to me racism has alot to do with her constant ommision from the greatest female player ever discussions.

Navratilova or Graf the greatest ever? Navratilova won half her slams at one slam, and Graf won half of them after her main rival was stabbed.

Nah we just don't like her because she is disgusting and a sad excuse for a role model unless poor sportsmanship is the goal.

 

[soyizgood]

In 2004-2008, Serena's ideal prime years, she only won 3 majors. For a supposed GOAT contender, that's not impressive. Not only that, that's the same number of slams Venus won in that time frame. Adding insult to injury, Henin's 5 slams in that period further proves Serena couldn't dominate during her ideal years. Being eliminated in the QFs of 3 consecutive majors by Henin in 2007 is just icing.

Serena won 2 slams in 2009 in a field where Safina/Kuznetsova/Dementieva were her biggest threats with Venus for Wimbledon only. Considering the H2H she has over them and the resumes of those three Russians (all with <=.500 records in finals), that's not much for quality competition. Venus has not made the finals of a non-Wimby slam since AO 2003, so she's not bringing up the competition level much.

Sad thing is, Serena doesn't give a damn about anything other than 4 or 5 events a year. TRUE GOATS carry themselves as the best and back it up from beginning to end. Federer/Sampras/Borg/Laver/etc. would be mocked to no end if they walked over/forefited, tanked, skipped out, and was out-of-shape as much as Serena has been.

 

[ZhengJieisagoddess]

There is NO ONE who is even a contender for the GOAT who acted like Serena did...
"You don't know me..."
But yes, we do. Unfortunately, all too well...

 

[Chopin]

Serena is certainly an all-time great. If you don't think so, you don't really know tennis.

For the record, I dislike Serena's behavior and post-match comments and am no fan.

 

[Chopin]

There is NO ONE who is even a contender for the GOAT who acted like Serena did...
"You don't know me..."
But yes, we do. Unfortunately, all too well...

I don't want to open a can of worms here, but being a GOAT candidate and being a great person don't go hand in hand.

Personally I think Court's repulsive comments on homosexuality are just as bad as anything Serena ever said.

"Homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord!"--Court

 

[Steffi-forever]

Serena is certainly an all-time great. If you don't think so, you don't really know tennis.

For the record, I dislike Serena's behavior and post-match comments and am no fan.

Only Court, Evert, Navratilova, and Graf are ahead of her in the Open Era.

 

[flying24]

True, but let's not be mistaken. Serena's best >>>>> Henin's best.

That is your opinion. Actually if that were true why was Serena only picking up scraps during Henin's prime playing period as AndrewD mentioned? Did she just mysteriously never reach her best when prime Henin was around, but always find it when she wasnt. At their best IMO:

Henin's best >>> Serena's best on clay (despite the declaration of the two bimbo Marys to the contrary)

Serena's best >>> Henin's best on grass (but actually less of a difference than on clay)

On various hard courts or even indoors it could go either way if both were at their best. They only played 2 times on hard courts since after 2002 and both won once easily, and it is not like both were at their best in either. Serena though was actually much closer to her best in their 07 U.S Open match, than Henin in the 08 Miami match. Serena actually played decently in the U.S Open match, not her best, but she was also completely outplayed by Henin that day. The Miami match was Henin playing completely awful, Serena won most of her points just by Henin's mistakees that day.

Henin though actually plays a lower risk game and it is much easier for her to play closer to her best than it is for Serena to boot.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

so what?? Graf still had to win those slams. They weren't handed to her.

Serena still had to win hers, yet when she's the subject, in comes the questions of competition value, when the very same criteria has to be used for Graf's post-Seles stabbing.

See how it works?

Hmmm, so anyone who says "fed isn't the GOAT", even though he has more slams than anyone in the History of the ATP is racist??

Are you thick? SW is the issue, and how there is a clear double-standard applied when she is the person up for consideration. ...and considering the torrential flood of morally bankrupt comments posted about her for some time at TT, the rational mind concludes the motive centers on one thing.

I didn't realize facing racism, resulted in being a GOAT. In that case, Althea Gibson is the GOAT

What the hell are you babbling about? No one said "facing racism makes one a GOAT." The point is that racism where SW is concerned does exist, and it is both intellectually and morally bankrupt to deny it.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

show me posts which discounts SW's slam wins

Nice try, but active threads still exist where every cooked-up nonsense in the world is used (Chadwixx, et al) to imply SW is either no great player, or that her competition was of some poor quality--enough to reduce the impact of her wins. Then there's the equally routine attempts to blast her actual ability (see grafselesfan's recent thread and LDV's endless rants), thus in any conceivable manner, some will try to kick SW to the level of someone like Martinez, Clijsters, or worse.

5 or 6 slams is "wayy ahead". And if (& when) she wins slams for the next few years, then we can have this discussion. until then she does not deserve to be in the GOAT mix. racism has nothing to do with her exclusion.

Sorry, but that is not "wayyy ahead." Considering her ability to win at least 2 slams a year, and her skills appears to eclipse that of most of her opponents when she's at her best, can you doubt she will close that gap (removing threats of injury, retirement, etc.)?

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

So you stereotype this whole forum by the posts of a few, who are in the minority?

Clearly, no one said the "entire" forum, but make no mistake: TT is home to many with race issues in this forum, Rants and Raves, etc.

Try to deny this.

You don't even know what racism is as evidence to the example you just used.

Learn your history, then get back to me, because your failing to get the racism of the paraphrases quote screams, "I have no idea what racism is when I see it." The state of the nation, if not the world: denial or ignorance.

Oh, and for the record, racism comes in more than one form, chuckles. I should not even have to explain this.....

Serena Williams is not a contender for the title of the greatest of all time because her career is not over yet. It has nothing to do with race, discrimination, etc.

Go back and read....I say and will always say she's easily one of the greatest players of all time. You are referring to cuddles' stand. Get that straight, already.

By the way, what you just posted from Chad is just stereotyping and at worst discrimination, not racism. In no way did Chad make any direct reference to Serena's race.

Ahh. ignorance reigns supreme. The "stereotype" (as you label it) is born of racism, as blacks--more than anyone else--have been associated with living in, and having some racially & socially negative state of being deemed to be "ghetto," despite the original use of the term. The only minds attempting to spin this are those who wish to take the disgusting yoke of racism off of the idiots who have clear motives for that which they say or write.

PLEASE learn basic sociological development in relation to race, race relations and etymology of this slur in North Amercia before you spout off a defense of something that cannot be defended.

 

[raiden031]

Are you thick? SW is the issue, and how there is a clear double-standard applied when she is the person up for consideration. ...and considering the torrential flood of morally bankrupt comments posted about her for some time at TT, the rational mind concludes the motive centers on one thing.


What the hell are you babbling about? No one said "facing racism makes one a GOAT." The point is that racism where SW is concerned does exist, and it is both intellectually and morally bankrupt to deny it.

Did Serena not threaten to shove a ball down a line judge's throat?

Did Serena not self-proclaim herself as the real #1 even though Safina was in the rankings?

Does Serena ever give her opponents credit for a win against her?

You really think people don't like simply because of her race? You are a fool and the only evidence of racism you've shown is maybe a handful of TT posters, which still doesn't account for the facts that 1) Serena is not a very nice person, and 2) that she has not lived up to the achievements of others before her.

 

[cuddles26]

Serena still had to win hers, yet when she's the subject, in comes the questions of competition value, when the very same criteria has to be used for Graf's post-Seles stabbing.

See how it works?

Exacty. Regardless what Graf would have or wouldnt have won without the Seles stabbing, the fact is the overall field she won 10 of her 22 slams from 93-96 completely sucked. Seles taken out by stabbing, Navratilova who still blossomed in all age falling badly off in her final couple years, Sabatini a shadow of herself from 93 onwards. So that left Sanchez Vicario and on occasion Pierce and Novotna as her only legitimate competition, nobody else. Conchita Martinez was on average ranked #3 in the World from 93-96, ROTFL!!!

Now lets say we concede the field Serena has won 3 or 4 of her last slams against has also been extremely weak, which in fairness it has been. That is still a lower ratio of her 11 thus far than the 93-96 field is of Graf's. So if one brings up the weak competition argument for Serena, it applies to Graf atleast as much.

Navratilova also faced a weak field from 82-87 where she won 15 of her 18 slams. Evert was her biggest competition by far but was already a bit past her prime by then. Mandlikova was some competition. That is it. Austin was done by injuries by then, Goolagong was completely washed up, King was nearly 40 playing her final years on grandma knees, Graf and Sabatini were pre pubescent teenagers who hadnt even physically matured yet, Jaeger was an overrated clown even before she burnt out. Pam Shriver was the World #4 almost that whole time period, a clumsy player with no ground game, no athletic ability, no movement other than at the net a bit. Wendy Turnbull an aging player in her early 30s who way back in her prime didnt win a single slam was the World #5 most of that period. So that would apply to Martina also, yet you hardly hear it brought up for her like you do Serena.

 

[fed_rulz]

Nice try, but active threads still exist where every cooked-up nonsense in the world is used (Chadwixx, et al) to imply SW is either no great player, or that her competition was of some poor quality--enough to reduce the impact of her wins. Then there's the equally routine attempts to blast her actual ability (see grafselesfan's recent thread and LDV's endless rants), thus in any conceivable manner, some will try to kick SW to the level of someone like Martinez, Clijsters, or worse

Sorry, but that is not "wayyy ahead." Considering her ability to win at least 2 slams a year, and her skills appears to eclipse that of most of her opponents when she's at her best, can you doubt she will close that gap (removing threats of injury, retirement, etc.)?

Sorry, but it is "wayyy ahead" - 5-6 slams is 50% of her total wins. Do you have reading comprehension problems? I think you do. What part of "she does not belong in the GOAT discussion CURRENTLY; we'll have this discussion when she freaking wins the slams and closes the gap" do you not get? "ability to win" does not hand you slams. actually winning it does.

could she? of course she could.. would she? we don't know that yet.

 

[flying24]

Where does the 5-6 slams away figure come from anyway. Serena has 7-11 slams less than Graf, Navratilova, and Evert, not 5-6. As for how many slams Serena will likely end up with, if one were being extremely generous maybe an estimate of 14-15, still clearly behind the greatest players of all time.