Serena's ommision from female GOAT discussions in part due to racism?

[drakulie]

...you still avoid admitting Seles' fate had no bearing on Graf's post-stabbing victories against players not on Seles' level. If they are inferior to Seles, then cough it up, as the anti-Serena crowd are quick to do about her competition.

You are not very good at logic are you?

How does Graf winning slams in the absence of Seles, equate to Serena deserving having larger numbers than she already has???

Further, you need to address how others with as many slams are routinely considered among the all-time greatest, yet when SW is mentioned as sharing that status, such virulent rants against Serena occur often?

Apparently you were absent from school the day they taught math.

Graf has 22 grand slam titles, SW has 11. (22 is greater than 11)
Graf, 107 singles titles, SW 35 (107 is greater than 35)

Graf was # 1 for 377 weeks. Let me know when SW comes close.

 

[LDVTennis]

You are not very good at logic are you?

How does Graf winning slams in the absence of Seles, equate to Serena deserving having larger numbers than she already has???

BlunderVolley is also not very good at providing evidence for his claims.

In another thread, he claimed that Serena had better technique on her volleys than Graf. I provided visual evidence showing that Graf's volley technique was excellent.

When I asked him to provide evidence showing that Serena had better technique, he asserted that I was the one who should provide evidence that Serena didn't have great technique on her volley. To no one but BlunderVolley would that seem logical.

So, good luck trying to get him to understand reason.

 

[Chopin]

Only Court, Evert, Navratilova, and Graf are ahead of her in the Open Era.

I'd place Serena ahead of Court in the Open Era.

 

[NamRanger]

I'd place Serena ahead of Court in the Open Era.

I disagree, however I can see how you can come to that conclusion. No one disagrees that Serena Williams is one of the greatest players of her generation (if not the greatest), but she isn't at a legendary status of Evert, Graf, or Navratilova yet.

 

[Cup8489]

You are not very good at logic are you?

How does Graf winning slams in the absence of Seles, equate to Serena deserving having larger numbers than she already has???




Apparently you were absent from school the day they taught math.

Graf has 22 grand slam titles, SW has 11. (22 is greater than 11)
Graf, 107 singles titles, SW 35 (107 is greater than 35)

Graf was # 1 for 377 weeks. Let me know when SW comes close.

I think it's a losing effort to try to convince them with numbers and facts why SW isn't the GOAT, they seem to have lost touch with logic and reality.

Good evidence for your claim, though

 

[Deleted member 21996]

I think it's a losing effort to try to convince them with numbers and facts why SW isn't the GOAT, they seem to have lost touch with logic and reality.

Good evidence for your claim, though

i read something about him (thunder retentive). he said he thought having sand in the head and never being to school, but since im not a native english speaker, i didn't really understand...

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Do I know black people? Try growing up in the 3rd Ward of Houston, a neighborhood / area that is predominantly black and hispanic. You don't know anything about my background, so how bout you go and take a nice cup of STFU.

Take your own advice, Shirley-gal, and if you had a logical, fact-based point from the start, there would be no need for your 11th hour BS as seen above. Try a little harder next time.

All this fancy schmancy talk and you are still making the same claim which is false, that ghetto somehow only refers to black Americans. This is false, and any half respecting black person would be totally offended that you are making the claim that using the term "ghetto" is a racist remark and that it only refers to black people.

More BS which translates as: "I was called out on my ignorance (the 'fancy schmancy' line), and when called out on what the perceptions of many were on the subject, I cannot answer--other than resorting to the same nonsense shattered time and time again."

Must be painful to go that route so often.

In fact, I'm beginning to think the only racist person here is you. The term "ghetto" has been by Americans TODAY (read : TODAY) as a term to describe people who come from a lower economic status and have a certain set of behaviors and attitudes. Blacks do fit this category, as well as hispanics, whites, asians, middle easterns, etc.

Please refer to the "fancy schmancy" passage, because you are still drowning in the River Clueless.

The worst part is it is very obvious that you actually have an education, but you are so blinded by your infatuation with Serena Williams that you can't even concede that the other side may actually be right. That only goes to show how pathetic you actually are.

I know double standards and/or racism when I see it..unlike your disturbed ass--with the need to desperately defend those with clear issues. After all, your apparent lack of moral clarity--under no circumstances--should be abated by truth..reasoning......

 

[grafselesfan]

I rate Serena as the 5th greatest women player of the Open Era behind only Graf, Navratilova, Court, and Evert. The power is within her to move even higher. The next few years will tell the tale though. I do think game and ability wise though she is probably already the greatest women player ever. I started a thread breaking down the games of the various greats in comparision to bear out why I thought that. Her already outstanding achievements need to be further increased to be the female GOAT, but ability wise she is right up there already.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

i read something about him (thunder retentive). he said he thought having sand in the head and never being to school, but since im not a native english speaker, i didn't really understand...

^ Mountains of evidence....

It should not be so easy....

 

[grafselesfan]

I'd place Serena ahead of Court in the Open Era.

I think Court is underrated by many people. Her slam tally is inflated by the Aussie Open status then (as is Graf's likely some by the Seles stabbing) but with home court advantage she still probably wins 5-7 instead of 11 and has 18-20 slams now. Still keeping up here up with Graf and Navratilova.

It is hard to compare players from that far back game wise to more recent players. However even a young Evert held her own vs a prime Court, a near prime Evert was dominated by Navratilova, a near prime Navratilova was dominated by a young Graf, and Serena game wise looks to be good enough to go up against Graf or Navratilova if all were at their best. So I suspect ability wise Serena could do well vs Court, though her achievements need to be further boosted as I said, which she is certainly capable of.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

I rate Serena as the 5th greatest women player of the Open Era behind only Graf, Navratilova, Court, and Evert. The power is within her to move even higher. The next few years will tell the tale though. I do think game and ability wise though she is probably already the greatest women player ever. I started a thread breaking down the games of the various greats in comparision to bear out why I thought that. Her already outstanding achievements need to be further increased to be the female GOAT, but ability wise she is right up there already.

I have said the much of the same thing: SW is one of the GOAT without question, but when it comes to ability--as seen in your thread--some will try to blast your assessment, no matter how structured and fact-based it happens to be.

 

[grafselesfan]

I have said the much of the same thing: SW is one of the GOAT without question, but when it comes to ability--as seen in your thread--some will try to blast your assessment, no matter how structured and fact-based it happens to be.

Yeah I was surprised to see some of the responses. I love Graf obviously but arguing a backhand that is only ever hit with slice (other than the very odd topspin backhand which those rare times she hit very well) is superior to a powerful explosive weapon of a backhand was kind of laughable. Or some of the other things people were trying to argue. I didnt expect everyone to complete agree with my breakdown, but some of the comments being made were almost unbelievable. It seems alot dont want to admit Serena's game and abilities are as extremely high as they are.

 

[grafselesfan]

LOL like past champions werent also arrogant. Navratilova publicly lowballs Graf and Evert and their games or competition in various ways. She trumpets herself publicly as the best ever many years after retiring by repeatedly stating it in exact words as it if were fact rather than arguable opinion. During her playing days she attributed any loss she had to her having a really off day, and always said her opponents played the match of their lives on a day they beat her, even if it were Chris or Hana. She whined about Graf being ranked #1 over her in 1987 even though both had won only 1 slam that year and she had won no other tournaments yet that year (Graf had won like 8 already at the time). Then in 88 when Graf had won 3 of the last 5 slams she still whined about not being ranked #1 and calling herself the real #1 regardless what the computer said.

 

[NamRanger]

LOL like past champions werent also arrogant. Navratilova publicly lowballs Graf and Evert and their games or competition in various ways. She trumpets herself publicly as the best ever many years after retiring by repeatedly stating it in exact words as it if were fact rather than arguable opinion. During her playing days she attributed any loss she had to her having a really off day, and always said her opponents played the match of their lives on a day they beat her, even if it were Chris or Hana. She whined about Graf being ranked #1 over her in 1987 even though both had won only 1 slam that year and she had won no other tournaments yet that year (Graf had won like 8 already at the time). Then in 88 when Graf had won 3 of the last 5 slams she still whined about not being ranked #1 and calling herself the real #1 regardless what the computer said.

Yes but their arrogance cannot possibly be in the ball park of Serena Williams. She is at a totally different level.

 

[Joe Pike]

Yeah I was surprised to see some of the responses. I love Graf obviously but arguing a backhand that is only ever hit with slice (other than the very odd topspin backhand which those rare times she hit very well) is superior to a powerful explosive weapon of a backhand was kind of laughable. Or some of the other things people were trying to argue. I didnt expect everyone to complete agree with my breakdown, but some of the comments being made were almost unbelievable. It seems alot dont want to admit Serena's game and abilities are as extremely high as they are.

If you were to add up Graf's backhand winners AND her points won due to her opponent's "unforced" errors in response to a Graf backhand - and then do the same with Serena's backhands you would be in for a nice surprise ...

 

[LDVTennis]

I rate Serena as the 5th greatest women player of the Open Era behind only Graf, Navratilova, Court, and Evert. The power is within her to move even higher. The next few years will tell the tale though. I do think game and ability wise though she is probably already the greatest women player ever. I started a thread breaking down the games of the various greats in comparision to bear out why I thought that. Her already outstanding achievements need to be further increased to be the female GOAT, but ability wise she is right up there already.

You also DID NOT provide ANY EVIDENCE for this claim. Your thoughts on the subject consisted of a series of declarations.

When I asked you to provide evidence, you disappeared from the thread. I won't now call you what you call others when they refuse to provide you with evidence for their claims, but you know what we are all thinking.

I've yet to read a post from you that convinces me that you know anything about tennis technique or strategy. So, your declaration about Serena here and elsewhere means nothing.

 

[Chadwixx]

Yeah I was surprised to see some of the responses. I love Graf obviously but arguing a backhand that is only ever hit with slice (other than the very odd topspin backhand which those rare times she hit very well) is superior to a powerful explosive weapon of a backhand was kind of laughable.

Because serena handles low balls so well, LOL. If you actually played tennis you would know how effective the slice is, especially against a fat player with a 2handed backhand.

Serena cannot hit through the low ball, she rolls it back putting her on defense. At least now (since she lost the widebody racket) she can actually hit them in.

 

[Kegzz]

A GOAT is dedicated fully to the sport, giving their all throughout the year. Serena isn't that. Yes, Serena is one the best of this generation based on Grand Slams, but all round, there are better candidates.

 

[Ripper014]

I have said the much of the same thing: SW is one of the GOAT without question, but when it comes to ability--as seen in your thread--some will try to blast your assessment, no matter how structured and fact-based it happens to be.

I can't consider any of the current players GOATs, in order to be able to even be considered a GOAT you have to maintain a level of EXCELLENCE over an extended period of time. You need not only to win but dominate on a consistant basis and no one in the current womans game has been able to achieve that. Back in the golden days of tennis... the reason that either Evert, Navratilova or both were in a final was that it was seldom you could beat both these greats in back to back matches. Not only were they GREAT players... but they proved it every single time they stepped on the court. Beating one in a semi's was just the start... of a very difficult road.

GOATs should not be handed out lightly... GREATEST OF ALL TIME, if there are more than a handful of them... what would great mean anymore. Its like all these diluted Hall of Fames you do not need to have inductions every year, it has gotten to the point were it means less and less now.

Serena Williams
35 Titles
Record of 442-96 or 82.7%

Chris Evert
157 Titles
Record of 1309-146 or 90.0%

Martina Navratilova
167 Titles
Record of 1442-219 or 86.8%

Stefi Graf
107 Titles
Record of 900-115 or 88.7%

As you can see Serena's numbers are are low compared too these three and that does not include the fact that these three were more consistant winners over a much longer period of time.

Serena and Venus may be a blip on the tennis time-line but in no way would I consider them GOATs.

 

[Ripper014]

Race has nothing to do with how Serena Williams is talked about on these forums. It has to do with her poor sportsmanship, her lack of dedication, and her arrogance.

Hmmm... I wish I could have said this... but I was afraid I would be banned from the forums. It is nice to see that I am not alone it how I feel about certain people in the world.

I do not see why the tennis is catering to her... I personally feel that she should have been suspended from at least one if not for a year of Grand Slam events. There needs to be enough incentive to prevent this sort of behaviour.

I understand how they feel she is a drawing card... but someone always seems to step into the spotlight when someone steps out. As we lost the Billie Jean Kings and Margaret Courts... we had Evonne Goolagong and Chris Evert... then Stefi Graf and Gabby... no one player is bigger than the game.

Not even Michael Jordan... or Tiger Woods...

 

[Camilio Pascual]

It is clear to me racism has alot to do with her constant ommision from the greatest female player ever discussions.

She was certainly treated horribly at Indian Wells years ago, people who were there tell me there was a racist component to it and I don't doubt it.
But, no, I don't agree.
She is quite a few GS titles away from Graf, Navratilova, Evert, and Court. These things don't happen automatically. I think there will be an argument for Serena if/when she has ~14 GS titles. Then, there will be a good argument that the depth in women's tennis was deeper than from the 60-s - 90's, making 14 about equivalent to 18 or so.
Another good argument that can be made for her is that she now has 10 GS doubles titles. How many does Steffi Graf have?
In baseball, there are plenty of dubious Hall of Fame players who were clearly not as good as many who were left out. For somebody to be a GOAT or Hall of Famer, there has to be publicity and people pushing for them. That's where you can help.
As far as racism goes, keep fighting the good fight!

 

[lambielspins]

These things don't happen automatically. I think there will be an argument for Serena if/when she has ~14 GS titles. Then, there will be a good argument that the depth in women's tennis was deeper than from the 60-s - 90's, making 14 about equivalent to 18 or so.

LOL NO! The competition Serena faces is crap, this is currently the worst womens field in history. Serena wont even be in the conversation for female GOAT unless she were to win atleast 25 slams to compensate for the horrible competition today. Of course she wont ever even come close to that.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

The competition Serena faces is crap, this is currently the worst womens field in history.

You should have read my post more carefully, I said the depth is deeper, NOT that the quality of the field is better.
It is very easy to prove that depth was not much in the past because the standard deviation of results was much higher then. For example, if there are x number of women players and one of them wins all of the tournaments, then there is little depth. If 12 of them win all of the tournaments, then the standard deviation and the depth is smaller.
Anyway, I'd like to hear your arguments that the competition is worse now than during the time of Navratilova, Graf, Court, and Evert. I would guess that the quality improved because of the money of the Open Era, but I could be wrong. It just seems that most everybody can travel and compete at Oz nowadays, whereas in the past, somebody in the men's or women's game who could afford to get there faced considerably less competition than at the other Slams.

 

[lambielspins]

You should have read my post more carefully, I said the depth is deeper, NOT that the quality of the field is better.
It is very easy to prove that depth was not much in the past because the standard deviation of results was much higher then. For example, if there are x number of women players and one of them wins all of the tournaments, then there is little depth. If 12 of them win all of the tournaments, then the standard deviation and the depth is smaller.
Anyway, I'd like to hear your arguments that the competition is worse now than during the time of Navratilova, Graf, Court, and Evert. I would guess that the quality improved because of the money of the Open Era, but I could be wrong. It just seems that most everybody can travel and compete at Oz nowadays, whereas in the past, somebody in the men's or women's game who could afford to get there faced considerably less competition than at the other Slams.

More people winning does not mean improved quality. It just could mean there is no strong enough form at the top. Like right now since Henin's retirement we have been left with a half commited Serena who is clearly not in shape and tanks nearly all events outside the slams, Venus who is no longer a threat on any surface except grass, and a bunch of women incapable of winning when it matters.

I would say a certain order suggest better strength of competition as it means atleast certain players are good enough to uphold their positions and keep some order. The way it is now is not showing more depth, it is simply a collection of women not worthy to even mantain the number of positions available, not atleast 3 legit top 3 worthy women, not atleast 5 legit top 5 worthy, not a single clay courter worthy of winning the French since Henin retired, etc.....As for why the competition was better then, well you would never see Jankovic or Safina anywhere near #1 in the World, so that alone says enough.

Serena would have to win atleast 25 slams to even be in the discussion with Graf or Navratilova given that she plays in the worst womens field in history.

 

[Joe Pike]

You should have read my post more carefully, I said the depth is deeper, NOT that the quality of the field is better.
It is very easy to prove that depth was not much in the past because the standard deviation of results was much higher then. ...

So if Serena had denied Sharapova, Kuznetsova, Ivanovic and Clijsters some more slams the field would have been less deep?

 

[Camilio Pascual]

So if Serena had denied Sharapova, Kuznetsova, Ivanovic and Clijsters some more slams the field would have been less deep?

That is correct.
Which was exactly the case during the Evert-Navratilova Era. Check out the results for the top 16 seeds during the years they won Slams and compare it to afterwards, many more upsets since then.
Once again, more depth doesn't necessarily indicate better or less "quality" in the field.
As far as Serena not being considered as the GOAT, she does not compare well even to Evert, though she has time to improve on that:
GS titles Evert 18 Serena 11
GS finals Evert 34 Serena 14
GS SF's Evert 52 Serena 17 (this is the mismatch)
GS entry Evert 56 Serena 40
The huge semifinals appearances difference shows how "thin" Serena's results are compared to Evert's. It also indicates more depth (competetiveness as Bill James would call it) in the women's field than before.

 

[lambielspins]

Serena's less regular results have absolutely nothing to do with depth, they are all to do with her. If she trained and commited like she did in 2002-2003 she would be in the semis or better of every single slam the last 8 years combined probably, and win 2+ slams every year. She is that good talent wise, and this era in womens tennis other than Henin, Venus on fast surfaces only, and occasionaly Sharapova and Clijsters is that bad. Likewise Graf or Navratilova facing the same field Serena has in 2008 and 2009 for example would be even more dominant than ever, probably each losing 0 or 1matches both years combined (possibly a loss to Venus at Wimbledon). Serena of 2002-2003 herself would probably have lost 0 or 1 matches in 2008-2009 combined vs the thrash womens field of the last 2 years.

Serena simply doesnt have the work ethic or commitment of other all time greats, and that is why her results are far more irregular, and her achievements sum and period of dominance far less. She has the raw talent, which she showed in 2002-2003 when she actually trained the way such a great champoin should, but she didnt carry it through.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

More people winning does not mean improved quality.

Exactly.
Many people will argue that it does, but it only indicates the level of the competitiveness, not the quality.
I would agree with people who say more depth is more likely than not to indicate higher quality, but it is not necessarily so.

 

[lambielspins]

Exactly.
Many people will argue that it does, but it only indicates the level of the competitiveness, not the quality.
I would agree with people who say more depth is more likely than not to indicate higher quality, but it is not necessarily so.

So based on what would Serena need only 14 slams to be in womens GOAT discussions according to you? That is far less than say Graf's 22, and Navratilova and Evert's 18 is really more than that considering the additional slams they lost out in the 70s due to the status of the Australian and French Opens at the time. You are conceding there is nothing that indicates Serena faced a better "quality" field regardless of its depth criteria.

 

[DRII]

November 11, 2009


September 21, 2009




September 20 about the greatest female Belgium player of all time


Great posts/threads!!!

BTW, Serena is not a GOAT contender because of her ranking history (spends overall only 2 years in the top 2 on the WTA ranking), because she didn't win enough titles yet and because of all those awful loss against non top 10 players. Graf spends 10 years and 3 months STRAIGHT in the top 2 , Navi and Evert are close to 10 years overall too. It doesn't matter if she is black or white. I don't care anyway.

This is the same thing I posted for you in an another thread. I hope you understand this time :

Chris Evert :
18 Grand Slam singles titles
7 Roland Garros
158 titles
34 Grand Slam finals
52 Grand Slam semifinals
125 consecutive wins on clay

Martina Navratilova
18 Grand Slam singles titles
9 Wimbledon
167 titles
Won 74 consecutive matches
19 consecutive Grand Slam semifinals
6 consecutive Grand Slam titles

Steffi Graf
22 Grand Slam singles titles
The most Hardcourt Slams
8 Year-end at #1 and most weeks at #1
13 consecutive Grand Slam finals
Won every Grand Slam title 4 times each
Golden Slam

Serena Williams
11 Grand Slam titles
4 Australian Open titles (Tie with Court, Goolagong, Graf and Seles)
Unseeded Grand Slam Winner (Australian Open 2007) (Tie with O'Neil)
Highest Career earning
Highest Single Year Earning
Highest streak of consecutive initial Grand Slam finals won (Doubles) (10)

Great post Steffi-forever (not that I necessarily agree, but you disproved cuddles quite well).

Don't worry, when you prove cuddles wrong (or atleast present an argument he/she can't plausibly refute) he/she calls you a troll! Its happened to me as well.

Who else feels cuddles and jamesblakefan are a little too similar...

Coincidental? I doubt it!

 

[DRII]

Yes I do, a reverant who held a great speech at MJ:s tribute in Staples Center.

Ghettos were present at lots of places before it was even recognized in USA.

USA has no history compared to some places in Europe and the Middle east etc

And your point? How is the historical lineage of the word ghetto really relevant?

Obviously, in the context it is being discussed in this thread, it refers to the modern day 'American' context of what ghetto is or means.

Which BTW, I feel can refer to any color of people, yet is mostly associated with black Americans. White, Latinos, Native Americans have 'their' own pejoratives most commonly linked to them: Trailer park, Vato, Reservation, etc...

 

[DRII]

There's nothing wrong with beeing a young nation, but when I hear some americans talk (mostly politicians) you almost get the feeling that they think that the states are as old as the Roman Republic, when in fact it was mostly Buffalos at a time when other nations already had a national identidy.

Jealous?

I would expect most politicians to cater to their constituents, including in Europe. How or why that bothers you is quite bewildering.

And as we all know; age and influence are not always linked. Please do not begrudge Americans because of the 'power' of America.

Although, I do sometimes wish more Americans realized the influence America, and our policies, have on the rest of the world!

 

[DRII]

Yeah I was surprised to see some of the responses. I love Graf obviously but arguing a backhand that is only ever hit with slice (other than the very odd topspin backhand which those rare times she hit very well) is superior to a powerful explosive weapon of a backhand was kind of laughable. Or some of the other things people were trying to argue. I didnt expect everyone to complete agree with my breakdown, but some of the comments being made were almost unbelievable. It seems alot dont want to admit Serena's game and abilities are as extremely high as they are.

How about many, including myself, disagreed with you. And I seem to remember you being very dismissive of my and others opinion.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

I can't consider any of the current players GOATs, in order to be able to even be considered a GOAT you have to maintain a level of EXCELLENCE over an extended period of time. You need not only to win but dominate on a consistant basis and no one in the current womans game has been able to achieve that.

The essential problem with your theory is that--to reiterate--other players (female or male) are considered as part of the GOAT group based almost exclusively on slam wins (since it is beyond argument that winning the sport's defining prize is the ultimate goal of a professional tennis player). Then, we have the case of a person such as Agassi: we already have some claiming he is among the GOAT, yet he could hardly be considered consistent in his slam wins, and never dominated any slam in his pockmarked career, other than an strained argument made for the Australian Open. Yet from his slam results alone, some consider him one of the greats.

See the double-standard? If 8 elevates one to this catagory, certainly 11 can without so much as a subconscious moment of hesitation, so the reasons for the typical fiery anti-SW rants seen around here (not referring to you), they are anything except legitimate.

GOATs should not be handed out lightly... GREATEST OF ALL TIME, if there are more than a handful of them... what would great mean anymore. Its like all these diluted Hall of Fames you do not need to have inductions every year, it has gotten to the point were it means less and less now.

I posed this HoF question the other day, but the nominating board sees fit to elevate 1-slam winners to the level of the greatest of all time....so what does that mean for the serious slam winners such as Serena?

 

[Joe Pike]

The essential problem with your theory is that--to reiterate--other players (female or male) are considered as part of the GOAT group based almost exclusively on slam wins (since it is beyond argument that winning the sport's defining prize is the ultimate goal of a professional tennis player). Then, we have the case of a person such as Agassi: we already have some claiming he is among the GOAT, ...

I have never heard someone claim that Agassi might be the GOAT.
Laver, Borg, Sampras and Federer are discussed - on no one else.
Most certainly not Agassi.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

Serena's less regular results have absolutely nothing to do with depth,...

And they might have everything to do with depth.
Cutting down the number of tournaments and concentrating more on the Slams could be a smarter strategy in a field with more depth as opposed to one with less depth. Especially if one is frequently injured.
As far as 14 Slams go, I think the depth and quality arguments would convince me to place her above Court who has 24, but certainly not past Evert, Navratilova, and Graf.
Amongst players since WWII, I rate Serena no higher than 6th, just above Seles and below Connolly. She has had a more successful career than Venus, Henin, and Clijsters, but quality wise, I would rate these players as pretty much equal when each is playing her best.

 

[Anaconda]

When people talk about the greatest female tennis player of all time they mention Navratilova or Graf mostly. On occasion you hear the names Evert, Court, Wills, Lenglen, and Connolly brought up. And for those whiny "what if" babies only Seles on occasion. While many acknowledge Serena as a top 10 player all time nobody discusses her as even a candidate for the greatest female tennis player ever. To me this is simply ridiculous. I dont expect everyone to agree she is the greatest ever, but she should atleast be in the discussion and considered for that title. It is clear to me racism has alot to do with her constant ommision from the greatest female player ever discussions.

Navratilova or Graf the greatest ever? Navratilova won half her slams at one slam, and Graf won half of them after her main rival was stabbed.

I actually dispise people like you. Firstly........

have you got proof that people you are talking about are racial towards serena williams and other black people. You should be careful out in the real world or you could get in trouble for slander.

It's only fanboys like you who play the racist card. Even serena doesn't go that low on herself.......

I expect that you have nothing to prove that serena is the GOAT and come up with inexplicable reasoning for this.

 

[TMF]

I have never heard someone claim that Agassi might be the GOAT.
Laver, Borg, Sampras and Federer are discussed - on no one else.
Most certainly not Agassi.

I'm with you on this one. Like Serena, Andre would be placed in tier 2 great at best. They are vastly behind the others players and not even close to be in goat discussion.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

I have never heard someone claim that Agassi might be the GOAT.

This was discussed before your time.
The major argument for Agassi at the time was that he had a career Slam, Sampras doesn't. Sampras winning his last US Open slammed the door shut for good on Agassi GOAT talk, imo.

 

[fruitytennis1]

Honestly i dont think she really cares about being number one. She went away to do fashion as such nonsense and now all she plays is GS.

 

[fruitytennis1]

Hmm originally i thought goat stood for god of all tennis.

 

[Joe Pike]

This was discussed before your time.
The major argument for Agassi at the time was that he had a career Slam ...

Laver has TWO REAL grand slams.

Federer has a "career grand slam" as well, BTW.
And 15 slams.

 

[cbegap]

Racism is a convenient crutch that is played all too often. Why can't Serena just be disliked because she's kind of a jerk? Her talent is undeniable, but her mouth just gets in the way. People are so afraid of calling it like it is because everything is so PC these days. There's no money in equality or taking personal responsibility for one's own actions. It's never Serena's fault is it? Racism claims will never go away.

 

[DRII]

Racism is a convenient crutch that is played all too often. Why can't Serena just be disliked because she's kind of a jerk? Her talent is undeniable, but her mouth just gets in the way. People are so afraid of calling it like it is because everything is so PC these days. There's no money in equality or taking personal responsibility for one's own actions. It's never Serena's fault is it? Racism claims will never go away.

Uhm... is P.C. the new conservative mantra now? Ever since the Ft Hood killings, this is all I hear of late.

Perhaps some just have opinions that others disagree with. No need to blame all misguided (as you see it) views on Political Correctness!

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

I have never heard someone claim that Agassi might be the GOAT.
Laver, Borg, Sampras and Federer are discussed - on no one else.
Most certainly not Agassi.

Are you serious?

 

[halalula1234]

if she has a few more slams then this might happend but on my llist shes already up there

 

[schap02]

cuddles, before the hooded types off-road their way into this thread, you should know that the Serena=GOAT conversation takes may turns depending on the person talking; some think she's easily on the GOAT list, while others do not, so there is no sweeping rejection of her likely status.

But let's be honest: racial hatred has followed the Williams (independent of Richard's behavior or comments) since they emerged on the pro circuit (you will soon read some of the racially based comments in this thread), however, there are others who simply judged SW for her abilities, competition and effects on the overall sport.

In any case, more than anyone since Graf's generation, no one is more deserving of being in the GOAT discussions and HoF entry than Serena.

Just wanted to chime in here for a second - first off I never get involved in the GOAAT discussions for male or female but this one was worth just a few words from me - I don't feel like Serena really embraces the game - she comes to the slams, mostly wins them and that's about it, she doesn't travel a rigorous schedule, she doesn't play many tournaments, I don't see her as an ambassador to the game, yet.

That being said - I do think she is one of the best, if not the best (see: GRAF) ever to play the game - I just think she gets left out sometimes bc she acts like tennis doesn't matter to her.

 

[Ripper014]

I have never heard someone claim that Agassi might be the GOAT.
Laver, Borg, Sampras and Federer are discussed - on no one else.
Most certainly not Agassi.

I would never consider Agassi a GOAT... I thought early in his career he was all about image and flash... it was not till later he started winning majors and even then I feel he is over-rated by the media. Unlike his wife who I feel has a lot more humility and has stayed out of the lime light... something some athletes find difficult to do.

 

[Ripper014]

There are many gifted players to have played the game of tennis as well as other sports. Just because you are the most gifted player does not instantly make you a GOAT... It is about being able to win... to win in Majors, to be able to win anytime you walk on the court.

If you cannot bring your game to a non-major tourney should you be considered a GOAT? Maybe you just deal with the pressure better than your opponents... in majors.

This is not a race issue... if you want to be a GOAT... then "Just Win Baby........"

I guess I would have to consider her if you changed it to... "Grand Slam GOATs", but even then... I would have her on a second tier, and at 28 I would expect she is on the downward side of her career.

And as deep as the womens field is... there does not seem to be a young heir apparent (yes that would be sarcasim). The best women players in the world are going to be mothers or retiree's.

 

[Joe Pike]

if she has a few more slams then this might happend but on my llist shes already up there

That's OK.
Sharapova fans feel the same about Maria.