Seriously about Twist serve

LeeD

Bionic Poster
That is HIS twist serve. YOU try some.
For me, I have to hit the ball higher than my strikepoint, to get the higher than shoulder level bounce.
Maybe HE can do it without hitting up. I know both my buds hit higher than their original contact point, to get the heavy loop and downward path for the high bounce.
 

toly

Hall of Fame
That is HIS twist serve. YOU try some.
For me, I have to hit the ball higher than my strikepoint, to get the higher than shoulder level bounce.
Maybe HE can do it without hitting up. I know both my buds hit higher than their original contact point, to get the heavy loop and downward path for the high bounce.
If your racquet is slightly open you cannot hit twist serve, right?:confused:
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Depends....
How high a bounce are you looking for? How high a net clearance?
I used to play a FlimFlam man (flea marketeer) around 60 years old who hit his twists so it cleared the net by easily 5', maybe more, ball going slow at maybe 50 mph, but bounced well over 6' high or higher at the baseline. His twist is impacted with a slightly open face.
Mine might be vertical face. I hit up a bit, contact point around 8'6" or slightly lower, ball clears the net by 3' or so, goes maybe 60 mph, and bounces between 5'6" to 6' high, but hardly ever higher (in 60 degree weather, DunlopHDChampHardcourt balls). Worm cement courts.
The last vid might be closed face, barely top of shoulder bounce, but much more ball speed, probably closer to 80 or possibly more.
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Depends....
How high a bounce are you looking for? How high a net clearance?
I used to play a FlimFlam man (flea marketeer) around 60 years old who hit his twists so it cleared the net by easily 5', maybe more, ball going slow at maybe 50 mph, but bounced well over 6' high or higher at the baseline. His twist is impacted with a slightly open face.
Mine might be vertical face. I hit up a bit, contact point around 8'6" or slightly lower, ball clears the net by 3' or so, goes maybe 60 mph, and bounces between 5'6" to 6' high, but hardly ever higher (in 60 degree weather, DunlopHDChampHardcourt balls). Worm cement courts.
The last vid might be closed face, barely top of shoulder bounce, but much more ball speed, probably closer to 80 or possibly more.
You definitely didn’t read post #1. Twist serve (bounce to the right for righties) theoretically and practically impossible to hit with vertical or slightly open racquet!!! :shock:
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Don't believe everything you read!
I KNOW how to hit AmericanTwist serves. The first guy I ever hit with at GoldenGatePark had the best twist serve YOU"VE ever seen. ArtLarsen.
My twists bounce about eye heights to a 6' tall player. My slices around bellybutton high, as does my flats. My topslice second serves bounce about armpit high.
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Don't believe everything you read!
I KNOW how to hit AmericanTwist serves. The first guy I ever hit with at GoldenGatePark had the best twist serve YOU"VE ever seen. ArtLarsen.
My twists bounce about eye heights to a 6' tall player. My slices around bellybutton high, as does my flats. My topslice second serves bounce about armpit high.
You are talking about topspin, kick serve, or whatever.
You miss the main idea of twist serve. Does the ball bounce to the left (lefty serve)?:)
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I know what a twist serve is, having hit with ArtLarsen in 1976.
My lefty twist on duece court usually lands near the intersect, kicks out to the left so the returner has both feet beyond the doubles alley as he contacts the ball. Most opponent's just hit a topspin shot to my feet as I approach service line position, so I have to half or low volley it into the ad side court.
RollieZalameda, who beat PeanutLouie in SanFrancisco's high school tennis championships, had a great high twist serve. He was No.2 for MissionHigh, and ended up No.4 at CanadaCollege his freshman year. Pea WON the CanadianOpen the following year, so she was no slouch.
 

toly

Hall of Fame
I noticed that you ignored the original link that I provided that showed a rising ball on a kick serve. I know with absolute certainty that nearly every kick serve that I have hit for the past 20+ years has risen after contact. Many other serves that I have faced (4.0 to 5.5 level players) have a kick or twist serve that rises noticeably after contact. With a small % of these servers, it is not apparent if the ball rises or not.

Even Rod Cross talks about kick serves that rise (the "lob" kick serve he mentions is an example of this).
.
This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hGS03eFzi0&feature=relmfu shows the same kick serve from different angles.

qoztrp.jpg

Figure 13. Kick serve from different angles

Fig. 13.1 illustrates that the ball trajectory is near to horizontal, but in fig. 13.2 you can see trajectory of the steep rising ball. So, a photo camera can deceive us drastically.

Here is this player fist serve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYify796Nc0&feature=relmfu.

2u5qmo1.jpg

Figure 14. Fist serve

The ball has "steep" going down trajectory.

I think pros mostly hit twist serve slightly downward, because of high speed of the ball (more 100mph), otherwise ball flies out, but most recreational players can hit the ball upward with lower speed.
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Well DUH....
Pros are not us.
We cannot swing fast enough upwards and outward to get the twist effect, so we slow down the ball, needing MORE arch, eh?
Pros also hit the serves 140mph and upwards. We don't.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
This is just ONE example of a fast slice serve.
A slow slice serve, like used for second serves, are usually hit upwards first, and the slow speed allows gravity to take effect and bring the ball back down.
Slice serves are not twist serves.
You keep insisting of using top level players hitting fast serves. You need to look at top level players hitting normal speed balls.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
One more example, the same player hits slice serve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33IYBi7dw5c&feature=relmfu.

mwpf6g.jpg

Figure 15. Slice serve

The ball flies downward.
with all due respect I'm not sure what those pics are supposed to prove? You are not suggesting that one can hit a serve with downward angle about 45degrees as you seem to be implying here?? This pic, as well as the previous ones, are just optical illusions due to the position of the camera.
Sure, one can, and the pros do, hit the serve downward. But the angle is around 5degrees. if you are not a pro with high serve speed and high rpm topspin you just need to hit topspin serve up.
There's actually a pretty cool article by Broody (or Cross) about so-called acceptance angle of the serve. He evaluates how much up or down you can hit a serve depending on the speed and rpm. There's no much of a margin.
 

okaythen

New User
hi guys I can do a kick serve pretty good, I am going to try to do twist serve now but exactly what's the difference between them? toss is the same, you arch your back just like kick serve, grip is continental or backhand grip for more spin. the only difference is it only 8 to 2 oclock for twist? any other differences? thanks guys and you hit and follow through the same way as kick serve right?
 

okaythen

New User
also for twist serve you finish at the same side of your hitting arm? whereas slice and flat serve your hitting arm finishes at the opposite side of the hitting arm?
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
Hey Okaythen, I played a set last night and hit exclusively kicks and twists to really fortify a solid serve.

Anyway, all these diagrams and things in this thread are overkill. People here debate nuances that will only cause overthinking on the court.

What I would suggest is getting the toss right. The way to finish, or the way I finish my twist serve is with my racquet face facing in towards me. Jeff Salzenstines youtube video on the "dirty diaper" finish is great for this. Mainly focuses on the kick serve, but you will see that when you mess around with the toss and the angle of attack on the ball you will get a twist. He also shows the proper finish and motion, and a drill to get it locked in.

It's not worth all the diagrams and overthinking. don't worry about that stuff.
 
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toly

Hall of Fame
hi guys I can do a kick serve pretty good, I am going to try to do twist serve now but exactly what's the difference between them? toss is the same, you arch your back just like kick serve, grip is continental or backhand grip for more spin. the only difference is it only 8 to 2 oclock for twist? any other differences? thanks guys and you hit and follow through the same way as kick serve right?

IMO you can use kick serve routine but with different grip. When we hit kick serve with continental grip at contact the wrist (flexion/extension) is neutral and racquet string bed is vertical. If we use eastern continental grip the racquet string bed will be closed 45°. This would be too much, it should be around 15° - 30°.
So, turn the racquet handle 15° - 30° from continental grip in direction of eastern BH grip. :confused:
 

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
hi guys I can do a kick serve pretty good, I am going to try to do twist serve now but exactly what's the difference between them? toss is the same, you arch your back just like kick serve, grip is continental or backhand grip for more spin. the only difference is it only 8 to 2 oclock for twist? any other differences? thanks guys and you hit and follow through the same way as kick serve right?

To hit a twist make sure you hit the part of the ball that's facing the left side fence (for righty). not the 'back' of the ball. the back of the ball faces the back fence. Throw your weight in the direction you want the twist to go. So if you are serving to ad court and you want it to kick wide then make your weight go in that direction, not in the direction of where it will hit on the court but in the direction of where you want it to kick. so for ex. aim your weight towards the net post. Swing almost directly towards the right side fence parallel to the baseline, not into the court or into the direction of the ball's flight path. That's why the arm ends up like this after a twist:
images

stosur-dartfish-150x150.jpg
 

gregor.b

Professional
Hey Okaythen, I played a set last night and hit exclusively kicks and twists to really fortify a solid serve.

Anyway, all these diagrams and things in this thread are overkill. People here debate nuances that will only cause overthinking on the court.

What I would suggest is getting the toss right. The way to finish, or the way I finish my twist serve is with my racquet face facing in towards me. Jeff Salzenstines youtube video on the "dirty diaper" finish is great for this. Mainly focuses on the kick serve, but you will see that when you mess around with the toss and the angle of attack on the ball you will get a twist. He also shows the proper finish and motion, and a drill to get it locked in.

It's not worth all the diagrams and overthinking. don't worry about that stuff.
Yeah. Apparently there is this thing called 'PRACTICE'. Not too sure if it has much to do with reading and interpreting diagrams though.

If you could learn to play tennis simply by theorising and reading a book athletes would not be the greatest tennis players. Try the 'monkey see monkey do' approach.

Sheesh.
 

okaythen

New User
dirty diaper is to make sure you snap your wrist right?

toss is the same as kick serve right? just over and a little behind your head. and you need to arch your back so you can see the ball. as you arch your back you bend your knees as well.

hmm the 15° - 30° I didn't know about that, I will pay attention to that the next time I play. I am not sure but I think naturally your racquet face will be vertical with continental and 15° - 30° with backhand grip?

So not just 8 to 2 o'clock, you also want to kinda hit the left side of the clock hence the left side of the ball? I will make a note for that too.

Man I googled twist serve, read several links. Found out the proper name is american twist serve, googled that again and read several links again. also watched youtube videos up to page 4 cause there ain't many for twist serves, mostly for kick serves. I picked up a thing or two from EACH place but it took a long time. I have a good knowledge of kick serve and took many tennis lessons when I was younger so I was able to tell which info was right and wrong. but it took awhile, now if later I want to learn a new thing what's the best and quickest way for all the correct and full info?

So guys I can do pretty good kick serve, how long until I can do a decent to good twist serve? like how many hours of practicing, or weeks etc. thanks
 

okaythen

New User
Is jumping for kick and twist serve a very important aspect for the serve? I don't jump for any of my serves, maybe very little bit when I am really focused and the opponent is tough. But most of the time I don't jump. Or transfer your weight forward by stepping your back foot toward your front foot as you are hitting the ball. When I was a teenager my coach never tell me to do those so I never learned those but my other forms are good for serve. So is it very imporant for twist serve? without it my kick serve is still very high


also the follow through and ending posture is similar to kick serve right? any difference?
 

morandi

Rookie
Is jumping for kick and twist serve a very important aspect for the serve? I don't jump for any of my serves, maybe very little bit when I am really focused and the opponent is tough. But most of the time I don't jump. Or transfer your weight forward by stepping your back foot toward your front foot as you are hitting the ball. When I was a teenager my coach never tell me to do those so I never learned those but my other forms are good for serve. So is it very imporant for twist serve? without it my kick serve is still very high


also the follow through and ending posture is similar to kick serve right? any difference?

It is not necessary, but I recently worked on incorporating more jump into my serve, and it improved my level of kick tremendously, it also improved my consistency, placement, and pace. It made a big difference to me.
 

okaythen

New User
some people during their serve they move their back feet toward front feet and jump right away. Some people just jump and hit the serve, what's the difference between the two? I guess the first one can generate more weight transfer? or it's just personal perference?

Once I tried to learn jump up and hit the serve, I find it hard to hit the ball cause you are in the air. Any tips?
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
dirty diaper is to make sure you snap your wrist right?

toss is the same as kick serve right? just over and a little behind your head. and you need to arch your back so you can see the ball. as you arch your back you bend your knees as well.

hmm the 15° - 30° I didn't know about that, I will pay attention to that the next time I play. I am not sure but I think naturally your racquet face will be vertical with continental and 15° - 30° with backhand grip?

So not just 8 to 2 o'clock, you also want to kinda hit the left side of the clock hence the left side of the ball? I will make a note for that too.

Man I googled twist serve, read several links. Found out the proper name is american twist serve, googled that again and read several links again. also watched youtube videos up to page 4 cause there ain't many for twist serves, mostly for kick serves. I picked up a thing or two from EACH place but it took a long time. I have a good knowledge of kick serve and took many tennis lessons when I was younger so I was able to tell which info was right and wrong. but it took awhile, now if later I want to learn a new thing what's the best and quickest way for all the correct and full info?

So guys I can do pretty good kick serve, how long until I can do a decent to good twist serve? like how many hours of practicing, or weeks etc. thanks

Did you watch the video on youtube? A ton of questions can be answered by watching video on youtube.
 

morandi

Rookie
some people during their serve they move their back feet toward front feet and jump right away. Some people just jump and hit the serve, what's the difference between the two? I guess the first one can generate more weight transfer? or it's just personal perference?

Once I tried to learn jump up and hit the serve, I find it hard to hit the ball cause you are in the air. Any tips?

I dont move my feet. I stay in a relatively narrow platform stance. It is really a load and explode up movement. If you start thinking about the serve as less of a linear stroke, where your arm is hitting at the ball, and more about trying to get up and over on the ball that helped me. Like your trying to push the ball over the net using your whole body, like a jump shot in basketball. The racquet is just an extension of your hand.
 
Reviving this: could the forward racket tilt (theta) simply be achieved by hitting the kick serve while the shoulders are closed?... that puts your head between the ball and shoulders and thus the racket would need forward tilt to reach over your head from a sideways position? If the shoulders are squared to the target, the forward tilt would be difficult.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Reviving this: could the forward racket tilt (theta) simply be achieved by hitting the kick serve while the shoulders are closed?... that puts your head between the ball and shoulders and thus the racket would need forward tilt to reach over your head from a sideways position? If the shoulders are squared to the target, the forward tilt would be difficult.

The way a plane (racket head) meets a sphere (tennis ball) is completely determined by the angle of the plane to the vertical. Look for how closed the racket shaft is to the vertical looking at the edge of the racket. The words to explain this are not enough.

To do stop action on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

The above video is believed to be a kick serve based on the rise of the racket from before to after impact. The racket tilt can be shown in clear high speed video IF the camera is viewing along the edge of the racket as in the Stosur serve and some background reference for the vertical is in the picture. The front edge should block the back edge.

Your question is a very interesting point - Stosur's forearm and racket from this camera observation angle are in line at impact. Normally, for a flat or slice serve taken from the side, the racket appears vertical and the forearm is at quite an angle to the racket. Stosur's upper body appears on its side, maybe more than most. ? Stosur may be more acrobatic than many other ATP or WTA servers. ?

The other orientation of the racket as seen from behind shows how the racket rises during impact to give the required top spin component.
Kick-Serve-Contact-Wrist-Ulnar-Deviation.gif


For comparison, slice serve. The racket does not rise much before to after impact.
Slice-Serve-Contact-Ulnar-Deviation-CIMG0532---Copy-GIF.gif


One problem in studying serve videos is to get verified kick serves, verified top spin serves, etc.

Glad that you posted. Toly has many other threads with his excellent composite pictures. He made the gifs above from my videos.
 
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This is a video from a former great player from the 1970s with an excellent twist serve. I filmed this a couple months ago. See if you can freeze frame at impact !

 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
This is a video from a former great player from the 1970s with an excellent twist serve. I filmed this a couple months ago. See if you can freeze frame at impact !


To do stop action single frame on Youtube use the "." and "," keys.

The racket goes up at an angle to impact the ball and goes by the ball. Not much ISR with that technique. ISR or pronation - well after impact - turns racket face to 'fully pronated' position.


Kick serve with ISR. Look in the magnified box at the elbow shadows to see ISR and its timing. This is the kick serve in post #77.
To do stop action on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.
 
Well, guy in my video is over 60 yrs lol and does not have that kind of racket speed anymore, but he still creates a great deal of twist spin with his technique. From the receiver's perspective, ball kicks up with a unexpected leftwardness about 5' at the baseline. I was going to say 6' but did not want to get challenged, lol, but I think he gets it up that high still sometimes.

Also, open up on youtube and use the "," and "." to toggle back and forth and you will see him hitting above the equator and the ball goes up. This has to be an illusion!
 
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Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
Looking at these two kick serves, the first the racquet comes up more from the back left of the server. The second is more straight behind the back and needs to take a quick right turn, also the server is less "side on" at impact. It seems the second might be able to disguise the serve more. Both look effective .
To do stop action single frame on Youtube use the "." and "," keys.

The racket goes up at an angle to impact the ball and goes by the ball. Not much ISR with that technique. ISR or pronation - well after impact - turns racket face to 'fully pronated' position.


Kick serve with ISR. Look in the magnified box at the elbow shadows to see ISR and its timing. This is the kick serve in post #77.
To do stop action on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

This is a video from a former great player from the 1970s with an excellent twist serve. I filmed this a couple months ago. See if you can freeze frame at impact !

 
Hey HMGraphite1, the ordered was flipped in your response, or I just got confused. You mean the old guy with the hat is the first video?
 
Older dude in my video clearly has forward racket tilt applied to northwest hemisphere of the ball in achieving twist action. Would have never noticed unless I read this thread about theta.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Older dude in my video clearly has forward racket tilt applied to northwest hemisphere of the ball in achieving twist action. Would have never noticed unless I read this thread about theta.

Many serving techniques may be effective at the 'rec' level and above. I look to better ATP players for technique. There is next to no information available for miscellaneous rec level techniques. To see what is available try finding some information on 'rec' techniques that = 70-80% of the performance level of high level serves.

That serve might be good but the video is slow, 60 fps?, so it is not suitable for analyzing the serve. I tend to think that your are right, the racket is tilted so that the top half of the ball is or would be contacted first. But you need better video. Unknown & undescribed technique.

There is an article in Tennis Warehouse University by Rod Cross, Physics of the Kick Serve. Cross says that there is something called a 'lob kick serve' (or similar). See Appendix. He says that it does not exist in the higher levels of tennis because it is too slow. He gives a 80-100 MPH range for a high level kick serve. Later, I believe I read an interview where Cross said that maybe 100 MPH was a little high - to be determined. ??
 
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Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
He played #1 for Texas all four years, ahead of Kevin Curren and played dubs with him lol.
I have of feeling his technique is more the norm on the atp tour, need to watch more video though. Using the isr technique seems more awkward to me visually and trying it
 
In the interest of research I had another friend of mine let me video his serve. The first above had a good twist serve in the 1970s this guy had a really good twist serve in the 1980s .


Again, striking above equator with theta tilt.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
At impact I can't tell from the behind camera view angle how open or closed the racket face is. Could it be open?

Do you know how to capture a frame or part of a frame and post the picture on the forum?

Go to left side line (ad court) and take two steps into the court on the doubles side line. You want to capture the racket so that the closest edge of the frame blocks the farthest edge. (As in the Stosur video posted above.) It may help aligning the camera if the server first poses in what he thinks is his impact position with racket up. Align camera and move in or out for near edge blocking back edge. Start recording serves. When you happen to catch the racket very close approaching the ball look at the close and far racket edges. Move in or out along the sideline to improve the alignment so that the edge closest to the camera blocks the edge farthest away. That will show how closed the racket face is just before impact. A 30 fps camera with small motion blur in bright sunlight can capture this racket tilt at 1" from ball but it takes several serves. A high speed video camera will capture the racket close to the ball much more often. Have a vertical line visible in the video.

Everybody with a kick serve available can video this.

My definition of closed is that the highest part of the frame in closer to a vertical line through the ball than the lowest part of the frame.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I don't use my phone to post pictures or Tapatalk, a Smartphone, app.

I would email it to myself and then handle it on my computer.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
The gyrospin only causes the ball to jump to the right. For explanation see SystemicAnomaly posts in thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=405281 :confused:
That old link no longer is valid. The posts that @toly refers to are in this thread:

 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
That old link no longer is valid. The posts that @toly refers to are in this thread:

I miss old @toly
 
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