Serve Analysis/feedback

[bandyman35]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmcGAgsToFc this is the most recent video of myself serving. Any comments would be appreciated

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A3ez9o_ksc&NR=1&feature=endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etQ5MtZjR-c

these are a little older

 

[Head Pegger]

what you need to work on is clearly self evident.
But if you must correct something I'd find that if you keep
your tossing arm up longer and in a steeper vertical angle
your serve would be easier on the eye.

 

[corbind]

Toss the ball farther into the court. After the serve you are landing still behind the service line. That makes me think a toss more into the court will make your body follow.

 

[bandyman35]

Thanks for the feedback! I've only been seriously playing for almost a year, and because my tennis team had been so dominant lately, (we had 9 seniors last year) we now have a very weak team and I'll have to play 1 seed doubles, 2 seed singles, so I'm getting any help I can

 

[LeeD]

Good swing.
Inconsistent leg work. On one of the 4 serves, you make the effort to actually land your right foot inside the court. The other 3 are lazy tentative serves.

 

[bandyman35]

Yeah, of course I have more leg explosion in a match situation, I had just finished 20-ball rally drills so I was a little tired there. Haha.

 

[corbind]

Thanks for the feedback! I've only been seriously playing for almost a year, and because my tennis team had been so dominant lately, (we had 9 seniors last year) we now have a very weak team and I'll have to play 1 seed doubles, 2 seed singles, so I'm getting any help I can

Well for playing a year you're fantastic. I was nowhere near your level after playing even 4 years.

 

[bandyman35]

Well for playing a year you're fantastic. I was nowhere near your level after playing even 4 years.

Thanks, I worked my butt off all summer and winter to get where I am, I regret not going with the 2h backhand though, I've hit a one hander rather inconsistently, (other than the slice, which is my go to shot) and Now it's just too close to the season to change. I'll just work on the one hander. The kind comments are much appreciated though.

 

[Cheetah]

You know that's a slice serve and not a kick serve, right?

 

[bandyman35]

You know that's a slice serve and not a kick serve, right?

. The app I use automatically names any video I record as kick serve for some reason though. I don't know why.

 

[LeeD]

You cannot answer a critique with.... "I am perfect, the vid I showed was me after I got shot and run over by a car".........

 

[LeeD]

We don't care about your excuses, unless you post them FIRST!.
We only see the vid.

 

[Govnor]

You cannot answer a critique with.... "I am perfect, the vid I showed was me after I got shot and run over by a car".........

haha!

I see a nice enough swing. As stated, you need to have some forward movement. You're basically just jumping there and not going anywhere, meaning there is a lot of arm and not a lot of legs/body momentum. Not what you want.

 

[bandyman35]

haha!

I see a nice enough swing. As stated, you need to have some forward movement. You're basically just jumping there and not going anywhere, meaning there is a lot of arm and not a lot of legs/body momentum. Not what you want.

Thanks everyone for the swing compliments and leg tips. Do most of you drag the back foot up next to the front foot or keep your legs stationary?

 

[LeeD]

Stationary feet is called platform. Federer.
Dragging feet is called pinpoint... about 70% of the ATP.
About 80% of WTA.
And me. Pinpoint loads you forwards so you move forwards on EVERY serve, regardless of tired, lazy, or just don't care.

 

[Overdrive]

Thanks for the feedback! I've only been seriously playing for almost a year, and because my tennis team had been so dominant lately, (we had 9 seniors last year) we now have a very weak team and I'll have to play 1 seed doubles, 2 seed singles, so I'm getting any help I can

This is what's happening to our team next year.

 

[bandyman35]

Stationary feet is called platform. Federer.
Dragging feet is called pinpoint... about 70% of the ATP.
About 80% of WTA.
And me. Pinpoint loads you forwards so you move forwards on EVERY serve, regardless of tired, lazy, or just don't care.

Thanks for that. Always nice to learn new terminology. The only thing about pinpoint is more moving parts, more room for error.

 

[bandyman35]

This is what's happening to our team next year.

Gotta tell you man, it sucks, no one new wants to try out because they know they won't get to play, and then everyone leaves and you have to start the program over.

 

[Nellie]

I agree with the above comments regarding more knee bend and tossing more into the court. I would also suggest turning more (more of your back to the back).

The way you would use the above-identified starting points, is getting your front hip far into the court while your feet stay behind the baseline (i.e., forming archers bow ) so that the toss into the court and the straightening of your legs pushes your front hip foward and into the court. Note that the contact point, relative to your body, and your arm motion stay the same, so you should not feel like you are falling forward or hitting the ball into the bottom of the net (common occurences when you swing the same, but toss further forward). The difference is that your whole body is moving forward into the serve.

 

[bandyman35]

I agree with the above comments regarding more knee bend and tossing more into the court. I would also suggest turning more (more of your back to the back).

The way you would use the above-identified starting points, is getting your front hip far into the court while your feet stay behind the baseline (i.e., forming archers bow ) so that the toss into the court and the straightening of your legs pushes your front hip foward and into the court. Note that the contact point, relative to your body, and your arm motion stay the same, so you should not feel like you are falling forward or hitting the ball into the bottom of the net (common occurences when you swing the same, but toss further forward). The difference is that your whole body is moving forward into the serve.

Thank you for the hip advice, I had never heard that, that helps a lot.

 

[bandyman35]

Well, here is some new video if you guys would take time to watch.
Serve-http://youtu.be/wIPKQAiucoo

 

[bandyman35]

Try that again
Serve- http://youtu.be/wIPKQAiucoo
Groundstrokes- http://youtu.be/adh0GIsZF74

I was hitting with my dad, who has pretty bad knees, and can't run around anymore, so the rallies didn't last long, but I thought I'd put some shots on here anyways. Some are definitely better than others.

 

[NLBwell]

Seems like you are now getting the pieces of the serve. However, it is a very jerky motion. Try to smooth everything out. Practicing with a rope instead of a racket will show you where you stop and start your motion.

 

[Bobby Jr]

Try that again

Thank god you healed yourself of vertical video syndrome.

 

[bandyman35]

Seems like you are now getting the pieces of the serve. However, it is a very jerky motion. Try to smooth everything out. Practicing with a rope instead of a racket will show you where you stop and start your motion.

Can you explain what you mean by jerky?

 

[NLBwell]

Abrupt changes in the direction the racket is moving. It goes back, behind, up, forward. Try to make it one continuous smooth motion. A curve more than a rectangle.

 

[LeeD]

Watch your feet in the vids.
Sometimes, you go well into court.
Other times, you barely move forwards.
If you're looking for advice, you should not change your feet motion for every different serve attempt.
Nice swing, try lower and higher tosses to get the timing down. One or the other should work for a smoother motion.

 

[tennisplayer1993]

Toss the fall farther into the court. After the serve you are landing still behind the service line. That makes me think a toss more into the court will make your body follow.

Exactly what I was going to say. This will make your serve have more MPH and spin.

 

[bandyman35]

Watch your feet in the vids.
Sometimes, you go well into court.
Other times, you barely move forwards.
If you're looking for advice, you should not change your feet motion for every different serve attempt.
Nice swing, try lower and higher tosses to get the timing down. One or the other should work for a smoother motion.

Okay, thanks, Lee.

 

[bandyman35]

http://youtu.be/FrW_Zop0y6U more new video! I've been playing for about 18 months now I guess.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

I actually liked your previous service video better. No idea why people were telling you to toss further in front, now you're chasing for the ball in front of you. Bring back your toss a bit and swing upwards more. You don't need to land way into the court for a powerful serve.

 

[bandyman35]

I've been having all kinds of trouble with my toss, I'd never had trouble with it until the past month or two, and now it's just been awful. I've just been trying throwing it all kinds of different places just to see if I can find a rhythm.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

I've been having similar issues, and I'm finding that getting back to a compact service motion, just focusing on staying loose and comfortable, without too much leg and core work, helps me find my groove again.

 

[ProgressoR]

i noticed where you begin your toss from just looks a bit odd to me, you start your motion with both arms looking to be around or above waist height.....to me that seems a little odd, but maybe it works for you. But it might be a factor in your toss not being reliable. Surely it would be more reliable if you started the tossing motion lower and then released the ball once the arm is already moving upwards. Moving it upwards from being still and letting the ball go at the same time looks jerky and not reliable in my view.

Second, the previous advice you had on the leaning/pushing the right hip to achieve the archers bow position is gold, that made a huge difference to my serve, power and consistency. I stopped the video at 18 seconds and see little bow shape, your right hip is not pushing into the court.

 

[ProgressoR]

linked to my comment above, because you have little bow, and toss the ball infront, you end up chasing and lunging at the ball, whereas the correct bow position gives you coil to launch up and out at the ball, even if it is tossed infront. My advice is to keep toss in front but get more bow and launch and uncoil at the ball, see if that works.

 

[bandyman35]

Okay, thanks a lot. I just seem to have trouble pushing myself into the court from the bow position.

 

[ProgressoR]

then first dont try tossing it too much into court, just get into bow and focus on hitting up and out into the ball, get that feeling then if you feel you need to, try tossing it out further into court.

I do both, sometimes I toss not that much into the court, and to be honest if you get a good bow, you can still launch into the ball. Other times I toss it more forward, and just launch more, that is a more aggressive serve, and probably not as reliable as tossing it only a little into court. But if you have a good reliable second serve you can try the aggressive serve for your first serve without stressing about double faults.

Get the bow right first, then focus on tossing it further and see how far forward feels comfortable.

 

[bandyman35]

New vid. http://youtu.be/R_XUDFsFNO0

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

That looks very sweet, mate. How do you feel about it? Is it effective in matches?

 

[rajah84]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmcGAgsToFc this is the most recent video of myself serving. Any comments would be appreciated

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A3ez9o_ksc&NR=1&feature=endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etQ5MtZjR-c

these are a little older

You're very close to having a pro-style serve. Your'e closer than you think. I like that you haven't been playing that long and that you take it seriously and yet your mechanics are still simple. That's a very good thing.

 

[bandyman35]

That looks very sweet, mate. How do you feel about it? Is it effective in matches?

It's really effective when I'm consistent, when I'm serving well I'll sometimes hit 6-6.5 ft kicks, and my flat is 100-105 mph when I hit my best ones.

 

[bandyman35]

You're very close to having a pro-style serve. Your'e closer than you think. I like that you haven't been playing that long and that you take it seriously and yet your mechanics are still simple. That's a very good thing.

Thanks a lot!

 

[Chas Tennis]

Here is a thread that discusses internal shoulder rotation, the main contributor to racket head speed leading directly to impact.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=478319&highlight=internal+shoulder+rotation+serve

There are many clear illustrations of what you might look for in videos of your serve.

Here are the frames that show the quality of the serves:

17 milliseconds before impact. Federer has stretched his ISR muscles using the various phases of the kinetic chain. Here he lets these muscles rapidly shorten, rotating his entire arm to accelerate the racket to just before impact. Probably about 70° arm rotation in 4 frames at 240 fps, the internal shoulder rotation rate is about 2800°/sec. Muscle shortening using pre-stretch is 'passive' and probably does not give the feeling of much effort. Impact was on the next frame, not shown.

The rapid wrist flexion may be a result of the ISR or earlier elbow extension and not wrist flexor muscles. ?

The racket 'edge-on' to the ball to the racket strings on the ball results mostly from the ISR turning the racket face as shown in these frames.

On the last frame just before impact, the angle between the forearm and racket is about 40° as viewed. (Probably a kick or slice serve.)

The angle between his shoulders and the upper arm is 145° (arm 35° up from shoulder line extended) as viewed in this frame. That is a little more than most, 10-20°(?) up. See Ellenbecker video on the shoulder, serve and orientation to avoid impingement.

This is what determines the pace and quality of the serve. How can you see it without high speed video?

Unfortunately, the frame rate of your video is too slow to catch any more than one blurry frame randomly placed during each of your serves, never the complete motion.

High Speed Video Camera. Reply discussing a high speed video camera that will show you the details of your serve and any other tennis stroke. Cost well under $200 with tripod and 32GB SD card.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=7741038&postcount=47

 

[Chas Tennis]

Video Quality

New vid. http://youtu.be/R_XUDFsFNO0

Here is a frame from the video to compare to the frames above.

You can get better video with many cameras by

1) shooting from behind looking along the ball's trajectory, camera held high. Larger image of the server. Since the faster things are moving away from the camera instead of across the frame, there is much less motion blur. Also, this view point shows some important arm and racket angles as shown in the Federer frames.

2) shooting in direct sunlight - the camera's automatic exposure control will almost certainly select a fast shutter and there will be much less motion blur.

Still, if you really want to improve your serve with video you will need a camera with high speed video mode.

 

[Nellie]

It's really effective when I'm consistent, when I'm serving well I'll sometimes hit 6-6.5 ft kicks, and my flat is 100-105 mph when I hit my best ones.

It looks to me like your toss position changes a lot. I like the third serve because your toss more forward and caused you to explode forward and into the court instead of just up.

 

[Lukhas]

New vid. http://youtu.be/R_XUDFsFNO0

Looks great. You should practice landing on your left foot with your right leg kicking behind you. Sometimes it looks a bit like you're not totally using your body and compensate by trying harder.

Oh, and please, avoid VVS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt9zSfinwFA
Oh², and BTW, YT videos are all at 30FPS. So unless you're able to show us a slow-motion video, don't sweat too much on it. But a slow-motion video would be a nice addition.

 

[bandyman35]

Thanks for all the kind comments guys! I'll call up my friend who has a new iPhone 5s and try out the slow-mo feature on there.

 

[bandyman35]

Well, my doubles partner and I won our regional finals 6-4 6-1 on Wednesday, my serve was great, held at love all but one game, here is some vid if you want to check it out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fPZv_O0hTKY