Serve and Volley Help

Dan R

Professional
I'd be interested in people's thoughts on serve and volley. I'm a 4.0 to 4.5 baseliner working hard at adding this to my game, and it's a challenge. So far what I have gleaned is that there's more to it than hitting a serve and rushing to the net for a volley. In fact, that's probably the wrong way to think about it.

I found out quickly that I need to master a number of things to my game like on the rise approach shots, half-volleys, overheads, and long deep volleys (it's not very often I get a put away volley near the net). It also puts pressure on your serve, you have to be able to place it so you can anticipate the return, and open up the court. Also, decision making is tough. There's a lot of assessment needed. Right now I'm having to think too much as it is not instinctive to my how to build the point (I'm assuming that will come over time).

I find that I'm better off transitioning to the net in 2 or 3 shots, rather than rushing through no man's land only to get a volley at my feet or have to ball go over my head and going to fast to turn around . What are your thoughts? What's worked and what hasn't?
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
How good are your volleys?

i.e. if your groundstrokes are 4.5 caliber, are your volleys also 4.5 caliber?

IMHO, if your volleys are 4.0 caliber, you're going to need a 5.0 caliber serve to S&V well at the 4.5 level :)

5.0 serve and 4.0 volleys = Sampras model (serve > volley)
4.0 serve and 5.0 volleys = Edberg model (volley > serve)
4.5 serve and 4.5 volleys = Rafter model (serve = volley)
 

Dan R

Professional
My ground strokes are really good - my instructor says my forehand is 5.0 and my crosscourt backhand is 5.0 (down the line and slice are not as good). My volleys are probably not as good maybe 4.0 (at best), and my overhead needs a lot of work but is coming along. So I"m working on those those big time. Serve is good. My decision making is not very good - I think too much.

I don't understand the difference between the various models?
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
My ground strokes are really good - my instructor says my forehand is 5.0 and my crosscourt backhand is 5.0 (down the line and slice are not as good). My volleys are probably not as good maybe 4.0 (at best), and my overhead needs a lot of work but is coming along. So I"m working on those those big time. Serve is good. My decision making is not very good - I think too much.

I don't understand the difference between the various models?

Those are just my interpretation of the various ways that S&V can be successful at 4.5 level :)

You can either have a great serve and decent volleys (a la Sampras, serve > volley), a decent serve but great volleys (a la Edberg, volley > serve), or good serve and good volleys (a la Rafter, serve = volley).

If you have a mediocre serve and mediocre volleys, you'll get beat down by guys that you would otherwise beat from the baseline...
 

Dan R

Professional
Those are just my interpretation of the various ways that S&V can be successful at 4.5 level :)

You can either have a great serve and decent volleys (a la Sampras, serve > volley), a decent serve but great volleys (a la Edberg, volley > serve), or good serve and good volleys (a la Rafter, serve = volley).

If you have a mediocre serve and mediocre volleys, you'll get beat down by guys that you would otherwise beat from the baseline...

Makes sense, right now I"m beating myself because I'm not assessing the situation quickly enough and I either commit too soon to moving forward or get caught between shots. For example, I'll hit serve that is not wide enough and I've already come in too fast and the return is over my head. Or, I hit a great wide serve and I don't recognize it and end up with a half volley instead of a volley because I didn't get in soon enough. I assume I'll get better at that as I practice.

I was surprised at first how many different shots you need to master to do this. It's not simple.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
Or, I hit a great wide serve and I don't recognize it and end up with a half volley instead of a volley because I didn't get in soon enough.

I would recommend knowing before you serve, whether you're going to S&V on that point...

You'll be able to close down on the net better if you commit to S&V before the serve toss.

Regardless, IME, the 1st volley when S&V is generally more difficult than the 1st volley with an approach shot, since with S&V the 1st volley will often be around the service line, while with a "short ball" approach shot you'll often be in your optimal volley position roughly halfway between the net and service line.

So, inherently S&V is more difficult skill to learn than just "short ball" approach shot and volley...
 

Dan R

Professional
I would recommend knowing before you serve, whether you're going to S&V on that point...

You'll be able to close down on the net better if you commit to S&V before the serve toss.

Regardless, IME, the 1st volley when S&V is generally more difficult than the 1st volley with an approach shot, since with S&V the 1st volley will often be around the service line, while with a "short ball" approach shot you'll often be in your optimal volley position roughly halfway between the net and service line.

So, inherently S&V is more difficult skill to learn than just "short ball" approach shot and volley...


Right now I S&V on every point, I know that's not a good idea long term, but I want to practice this as much as possible. Also, when I'm warming up or just hitting around I stand in no man's land so I can practice taking the ball on the rise, deep volleys, and half volleys - again to gain experience with those shots not as a long term strategy.

I completely agree that it's much harder than approach and volley.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I'd be interested in people's thoughts on serve and volley. I'm a 4.0 to 4.5 baseliner working hard at adding this to my game, and it's a challenge. So far what I have gleaned is that there's more to it than hitting a serve and rushing to the net for a volley. In fact, that's probably the wrong way to think about it.

I found out quickly that I need to master a number of things to my game like on the rise approach shots, half-volleys, overheads, and long deep volleys (it's not very often I get a put away volley near the net). It also puts pressure on your serve, you have to be able to place it so you can anticipate the return, and open up the court. Also, decision making is tough. There's a lot of assessment needed. Right now I'm having to think too much as it is not instinctive to my how to build the point (I'm assuming that will come over time).

I find that I'm better off transitioning to the net in 2 or 3 shots, rather than rushing through no man's land only to get a volley at my feet or have to ball go over my head and going to fast to turn around . What are your thoughts? What's worked and what hasn't?
Not sure I'm getting your point, but my thought is that you must understand that a good S&V serve is not always the same as just a good serve. To do a True S&V, you need an excellent serve, that is precisely for S&V.... OR, the returner must be weak enough to struggle on returning the serve you do have. For example, many good S&V players used more spin and kick than power because that gives a split second more time to head to net as well as the kick/spin can mess with the returner's ability to be precise when locating the return. These 2 very small tactical advantages can often be just enough of an advantage to make the S&V game work for you....especially if you keep them off balance by mixing things up.
 

Dan R

Professional
Not sure I'm getting your point, but my thought is that you must understand that a good S&V serve is not always the same as just a good serve. To do a True S&V, you need an excellent serve, that is precisely for S&V.... OR, the returner must be weak enough to struggle on returning the serve you do have. For example, many good S&V players used more spin and kick than power because that gives a split second more time to head to net as well as the kick/spin can mess with the returner's ability to be precise when locating the return. These 2 very small tactical advantages can often be just enough of an advantage to make the S&V game work for you....especially if you keep them off balance by mixing things up.

Good advice. My preferred serves at this point are a slice out wide on the deuce side, and a kick serve wide from the add side. Trying to open up the court and force a weak floating return. I get that you can't serve in the same spot all the time, but that's what seems to work best.
 

srv vlly

Semi-Pro
The serve is the most important thing when using s/v. Try to serve into the body to get a weak return to allow yourself to have a put-away volley on the first ball. If that is not possible, then use the first volley as a set up shot for the second volley. You really should not be hitting more than two volleys. The more volleys you hit the lower your chances at winning the point.
 

srv vlly

Semi-Pro
If you serve wide it has to be wide enough. If it is not, the returner has an excellent opportunity for either an angled return or down the line. If you create an angle, you give your opponent an angle to hit into.
 

Dan R

Professional
The serve is the most important thing when using s/v. Try to serve into the body to get a weak return to allow yourself to have a put-away volley on the first ball. If that is not possible, then use the first volley as a set up shot for the second volley. You really should not be hitting more than two volleys. The more volleys you hit the lower your chances at winning the point.

I'll mix in the body serve. You're right if the slice serve is not wide enough - it's right to your opponents forehand. That's the assessment part. I have to learn to assess the serve and if it's good come in quicker, if not I might just take a step or two forward and look to take a ball on the rise and then come in from there. Maybe it's because I'm so use to playing at the baseline where I kind of know automatically what options I have, but with s&V it seems like there's way more decision making and less time to make them.
 

srv vlly

Semi-Pro
From my experience, there is no time to make this assessment. You need to commit to coming to net before the serve is hit. This is the high risk high reward part of s/v. You have to be willing to get passed on the return and challenge the opponent to come up with that shot over and over again. If they can pull it off repetitively you need to either change strategy or go down in flames rushing the net.
 

Dan R

Professional
From my experience, there is no time to make this assessment. You need to commit to coming to net before the serve is hit. This is the high risk high reward part of s/v. You have to be willing to get passed on the return and challenge the opponent to come up with that shot over and over again. If they can pull it off repetitively you need to either change strategy or go down in flames rushing the net.

I'll keep that in mind. It's a process for sure. I have had some success with coming in slowly and taking the first ball in no man's land. That doesn't work if I do it all the time or stay there for more than a short. I think you're right that the goal is to come in strong.
 

srv vlly

Semi-Pro
Just like anything, it is a skill that takes work. The more you come in the more comfortable you will get with transition volleys. The more you come in the more you learn which shots simply will not work as an approach. Maybe your slice serve does not create the volley you want, but on the other hand maybe your kick serve sets up your volley perfectly. You will never know unless you try.
 

Dan R

Professional
Just like anything, it is a skill that takes work. The more you come in the more comfortable you will get with transition volleys. The more you come in the more you learn which shots simply will not work as an approach. Maybe your slice serve does not create the volley you want, but on the other hand maybe your kick serve sets up your volley perfectly. You will never know unless you try.

It's demanding, very tactical. Do you play that way all the time, or just against certain opponents? If the latter what kind of players to you think it works best with? I try and see what kind of return they hit before I start coming in just to see if they hit hard, float it, short. Then I have an idea what to expect.
 

srv vlly

Semi-Pro
I serve and volleyed exclusively a decade ago when competing in college. Since then I have lost a step and cannot close the net fast enough consistently. I serve and volley at least once a service game. I usually approach the first few points of my first service game. This does a few things. First, it establishes my intent to attack. This will subconsciously affect the returner in not wanting to float a return. Second, it will give me a feel for the return. I will know how the return comes back for different serves and I can look for tendencies. If I am getting passed early then I know that maybe my serve is not where I want it for the day and I need a different strategy. If I am getting easy volleys I will continue the attack.
 

srv vlly

Semi-Pro
With regards to what kind of player it works best against, it really is universal and depends on your serve and their return. It is such an aggressive tactic that the opponent can only really hurt you if they hit good returns. If you are getting consistent shoulder height first volleys, it won't matter how hard they hit or fast they run, they shouldn't really be winning many points.
 

dsb

Rookie
Provided you have enough command of your serve that you can place it with enough spin/pace to get a neutral or worse return, you might try this... First, you decide to come in behind your serve before you even toss the ball, commit to it. Deuce court, if you have an effective kick (right-hander), take it up the 'T'. Move forward directly towards where contact is going to be made (follow the ball), at or just before contact, split-step, then re-direct as necessary to cut off the ball for your first volley, or setup for the overhead if they popped it up. For your first volley, put it deep into the opposite corner from your opponent then follow the ball in a step or two, again, split-step at or just before contact. Move in for your second volley, or setup for the overhead if they popped it up. For your second volley, you should have some choices, open court, angles, wrong foot, or just drop it short. The ad court version would be done with a slice up the 'T'.

This is my 'cruise mode' S&V, it feels very simplistic to me, everything is happening right in front of me, and it's like being on autopilot.
 

Dan R

Professional
Provided you have enough command of your serve that you can place it with enough spin/pace to get a neutral or worse return, you might try this... First, you decide to come in behind your serve before you even toss the ball, commit to it. Deuce court, if you have an effective kick (right-hander), take it up the 'T'. Move forward directly towards where contact is going to be made (follow the ball), at or just before contact, split-step, then re-direct as necessary to cut off the ball for your first volley, or setup for the overhead if they popped it up. For your first volley, put it deep into the opposite corner from your opponent then follow the ball in a step or two, again, split-step at or just before contact. Move in for your second volley, or setup for the overhead if they popped it up. For your second volley, you should have some choices, open court, angles, wrong foot, or just drop it short. The ad court version would be done with a slice up the 'T'.

This is my 'cruise mode' S&V, it feels very simplistic to me, everything is happening right in front of me, and it's like being on autopilot.


When I go down the T, my plan is to then hit it behind them. So, if i hit down the T from the duece court I'd like to hit the next shot into the forehand corner since that's the opposite direction from the way they are moving to hit the return. Assuming I'm playing a righty. Is that what you mean?
 

Dan R

Professional
With regards to what kind of player it works best against, it really is universal and depends on your serve and their return. It is such an aggressive tactic that the opponent can only really hurt you if they hit good returns. If you are getting consistent shoulder height first volleys, it won't matter how hard they hit or fast they run, they shouldn't really be winning many points.

So far I have not played anyone that can consistently put the return deep in the corner - I think you give up that part of the court with S&V, or that can hit it at my feet (which is the other vulnerability). Right now I'm making mistakes on that first shot after the serve. I'm not anticipating the ball well. It's not instinctive yet. Hopefully, that will come with time. I also need to develop my skills as well.
 

dsb

Rookie
When I go down the T, my plan is to then hit it behind them. So, if i hit down the T from the duece court I'd like to hit the next shot into the forehand corner since that's the opposite direction from the way they are moving to hit the return. Assuming I'm playing a righty. Is that what you mean?

Yes, provided your serve is good enough to have him moving past the center... The cool thing is that even if you choose 'wrong' he's still going to have to hustle to get to your first volley.
 

Dan R

Professional
Yes, provided your serve is good enough to have him moving past the center... The cool thing is that even if you choose 'wrong' he's still going to have to hustle to get to your first volley.

The other thing I learned very quickly, is that you want to keep what ever shot you hit to them low. If I can hit it crisply into the corner or angle it off it doesn't matter they aren't going to get it. But, if I can't do that at least hit a ball that stays low and will be at their feet. If I hit something that sits up at all the points over and I lose.
 

dsb

Rookie
The other thing I learned very quickly, is that you want to keep what ever shot you hit to them low. If I can hit it crisply into the corner or angle it off it doesn't matter they aren't going to get it. But, if I can't do that at least hit a ball that stays low and will be at their feet. If I hit something that sits up at all the points over and I lose.

Just don't try for a winner on the first volley (if it goes, so much the better)... it's used to set you up for an easy(er) second volley. Yes, the quality of your volley counts, like what IowaGuy said, the better your volleys the less perfect the rest has to be. A plan 'B' from the corner scenario is to just hit the first volley deep right back at them, if it's even got just a little mustard on it, you'll have little trouble with anything they send back.
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
You need to hit a good serve and good 2nd one because if people are teeing off it doesn't matter how good your half volleys, volleys and overhead are. Also it's a very different type of split step, different than groundstroke split, and you'll need a good overhead because that's the default bailout shot for the baseliner if he gets in trouble, it's also a big momentum change if go from supposed to win a point to losing it with an overhead.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
I'd be interested in people's thoughts on serve and volley. I'm a 4.0 to 4.5 baseliner working hard at adding this to my game, and it's a challenge. So far what I have gleaned is that there's more to it than hitting a serve and rushing to the net for a volley. In fact, that's probably the wrong way to think about it.

I don't know: it's a simple approach and simple can be good. There's a lot more nuance to it but if you can hit a decent serve, move fluidly, and split step in balance, you stand a decent chance of controlling the point. And some of those returns won't even come back.

I found out quickly that I need to master a number of things to my game like on the rise approach shots, half-volleys, overheads, and long deep volleys (it's not very often I get a put away volley near the net).

Well, it certainly is nice to have those shots but I wouldn't wait to master them before I attempted to use S&V; learn them WHILE you're using S&V [and on the practice court, of course].

It also puts pressure on your serve

Double-edged sword: it also puts pressure on his return. I've been the beneficiary many times of a returner over-hitting and donating a point. I don't rely on them to win but they sure are a nice fringe benefit.

, you have to be able to place it so you can anticipate the return, and open up the court.

Again, nice to have but not so critical that the lack of it should stop you from trying.

Placing the serve will give you an idea of the highest % location of the return but it's no guarantee. So you have to be able to react if he does something lower %.

Also, a successful volley doesn't always go into the open court: you can go behind, straight at them, or short too.

Also, decision making is tough. There's a lot of assessment needed. Right now I'm having to think too much as it is not instinctive to my how to build the point (I'm assuming that will come over time).

Very true. And the closer you are to the net, the less time you have. Since you're relatively new at it, you must think about it because you're not experienced enough yet. But the more you do it, the more you will start to recognize patterns and react on experience without having to think consciously.

I find that I'm better off transitioning to the net in 2 or 3 shots, rather than rushing through no man's land only to get a volley at my feet or have to ball go over my head and going to fast to turn around . What are your thoughts? What's worked and what hasn't?

Transitioning to the net and S&V are two different things: a transition is a choice you make after you've seen how good your shot is or how weak your opponent reply is. S&V involves committing to rush the net before the serve. If you wait to see the result of the serve, you've lost precious court [the tradeoff being that you won't approach on a weak serve/great return]. Whatever the tradeoffs, it's not S&V.

You have to accept that you'll get passed, have to hit shoelace-height volleys, and lobs. That's the price of admission. You can reduce them insofar as you can improve your serve but a great returner will still give you problems. Don't think about them as things you have to eliminate; think about them as things you have to be able to handle.

I think you're on the right path and asking the right questions. Continued practice will build up your library of experiences. You just have to get comfortable with the possibility of being passed, along with developing the shots you mentioned.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Makes sense, right now I"m beating myself because I'm not assessing the situation quickly enough and I either commit too soon to moving forward or get caught between shots. For example, I'll hit serve that is not wide enough and I've already come in too fast and the return is over my head.

The problem is not that you didn't hit the serve wide enough: it's that you didn't arrest your forward momentum and thus weren't balanced when the lob came. If you were balanced, you could have reacted more quickly.

IMO, being balanced is more important than being close to the net.

Or, I hit a great wide serve and I don't recognize it and end up with a half volley instead of a volley because I didn't get in soon enough. I assume I'll get better at that as I practice.

Hitting a half-volley is not necessarily an indication you did anything wrong: a good enough return will force you hit a HV. Just accept it.

Also, being forced to hit a HV doesn't mean you've automatically lost the point [I'm getting the sense that is how you feel]. Someone with decent hands can hit it deep and make the opponent try to pass.

The problem seems to be that you hesitated moving forward until you saw it was a great serve and THAT is what caused you hit a HV. The remedy is to just approach the net after your serve rather than hesitating.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Right now I S&V on every point, I know that's not a good idea long term, but I want to practice this as much as possible. Also, when I'm warming up or just hitting around I stand in no man's land so I can practice taking the ball on the rise, deep volleys, and half volleys - again to gain experience with those shots not as a long term strategy.

I think these are great tools to gain experience. Hardly anyone practices volleying from NML but if you S&V, you will frequently have to do so.

I'm not thinking about short- vs long-term; I just think they are helpful exercises.
 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame
If I had high level groundstrokes, I might serve and hang back and then look for a short ball to approach on and go from there.

I distinctly remember watching an old Vic Braden VHS on approach shots and court positioning that really helped me gain experience without having to think too much.

Basically, he said if you can put your approach shot in the backhand corner within a 4 foot square and get yourself 3 feet inside the service line and 3 feet inside the center service line, you can cover about 95% of all possible replies. Then you just have to focus on recognizing the difference between a lob and a drive and move accordingly. Remember the 3 feet inside the service box is just a waypoint, you are not meant to plant yourself there and stay there. Split step there and go intercept any drives or get back for a lob.

Learn to read what your opponent is likely to do based on the quality of your approach shot. If you can pick up whether your opponent is going to get there late or early that will clue you into which directions they can hit. If they are late, they are extremely unlikely to go back crosscourt.
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
The other thing I learned very quickly, is that you want to keep what ever shot you hit to them low. If I can hit it crisply into the corner or angle it off it doesn't matter they aren't going to get it. But, if I can't do that at least hit a ball that stays low and will be at their feet. If I hit something that sits up at all the points over and I lose.

From what I'm gathering in your posts, it sounds like you're well on your way toward S&V proficiency. I grew up playing on grass courts, so I was playing S&V all summer as a kid. I used to do it exclusively, but now when I play on hard courts, it's often practical for me to play more points starting from the back court with a baseline rally. But I'm always looking for that short ball that I can attack and I also S&V once or twice per service game.

This instinct you're finding for keeping the ball low is solid gold for this style of play. Leave the ball up in a baseline sniper's strike zone and that sort of opponent will have much better looks at passing shots. The slice is sometimes "poo-poo'ed" as an old-school relic, but if we hit it correctly it skids low, stays under a big hitter's strike zone, and it also flies more slowly to the far end of the court, so it gives us time for an extra step forward.

A slice approach generally turns tragic when the attacker hits a slice with improper technique or is simply not patient. When we make contact too far out ahead of us (toward the net), the racquet face will tend to open up, slide under the ball, and pop up a floating slice instead of driving it and producing that nice low skidder. It's important to understand this key transition shot - it will make S&V life wonderful for you if your slice is decent.

The other low shot to keep in mind is the semi short sort of "soft slice" that also skids and stays low, but lands shorter in the court and forces an opponent to almost lunge forward and scoop the ball up - it forces the other guy to hit what I like to call a snow-shovel shot. Impossible for the opponent to drive a ball from there, but the only trouble they might make is to hit a decent lob off their shoelaces. Not entirely routine for attacking the net in a singles setting, but this shot can be lots of trouble when playing doubles.

I'll echo the sentiment that some of our pals already offered above. When you're going to attack the net, that decision happens before you hit the ball that you follow forward. That means that you're going in immediately behind your serve or after hitting a short ball where your forward momentum carries you through the shot (with footwork including the carioca step). As you go to the net more and more, you'll develop the instincts for what to do and when to do it.

There's no one set formula to this style of play. One key to effective S&V play is to think like a baseball pitcher and be unpredictable. That could mean occasionally staying back after a first serve, but then following a second serve to the net. Even managing your serving like a baseball pitcher might keep a returner guessing more often and that can force some weak returns that you can jump on, too.

One general guideline that is rather close to pure gospel is worth noting - more for attacking a short ball than when following a serve to the net. When you hit an approach shot off a short ball and follow that shot to the net, it's smart to hit your approach shot straight ahead or down-the-line and NOT cross-court. That keeps at least part of the court closed off to your opponent as you cross no man's land.

If we approach behind an angled shot, that gives the opponent a chance at a down-the-line pass and sometimes even the opportunity to hit a passing shot at an angle back behind us. Cracking open the court with a wide serve is a little different when using a S&V attack, but remember that it's good to put an opponent in a box so that we can then volley toward daylight.
 

Dan R

Professional
Holy Dang... sorry for the brain dump, hope there are at least one or two useful nuggets in there.

No apology, it's great stuff. I'm not sure how close to proficiency I am but I really like this style of play, it's a great contrast to the baseline game, and I like creating a scramble but you have to be in control.
 

Dan R

Professional
Holy Dang... sorry for the brain dump, hope there are at least one or two useful nuggets in there.

No apology, it's great stuff. I'm not sure how close to proficiency I am but I really like this style of play, it's a great contrast to the baseline game, and I like creating a scramble but you have to be in control.
 

Dan R

Professional
If I had high level groundstrokes, I might serve and hang back and then look for a short ball to approach on and go from there.

I distinctly remember watching an old Vic Braden VHS on approach shots and court positioning that really helped me gain experience without having to think too much.

Basically, he said if you can put your approach shot in the backhand corner within a 4 foot square and get yourself 3 feet inside the service line and 3 feet inside the center service line, you can cover about 95% of all possible replies. Then you just have to focus on recognizing the difference between a lob and a drive and move accordingly. Remember the 3 feet inside the service box is just a waypoint, you are not meant to plant yourself there and stay there. Split step there and go intercept any drives or get back for a lob.

Learn to read what your opponent is likely to do based on the quality of your approach shot. If you can pick up whether your opponent is going to get there late or early that will clue you into which directions they can hit. If they are late, they are extremely unlikely to go back crosscourt.

Great stuff, my instructor always says it's not enough to read the racket face (open or closed) you have to read the point of contact as well (early or late). That's what you are talking about.
 

Dan R

Professional
If I had high level groundstrokes, I might serve and hang back and then look for a short ball to approach on and go from there.

I distinctly remember watching an old Vic Braden VHS on approach shots and court positioning that really helped me gain experience without having to think too much.

Basically, he said if you can put your approach shot in the backhand corner within a 4 foot square and get yourself 3 feet inside the service line and 3 feet inside the center service line, you can cover about 95% of all possible replies. Then you just have to focus on recognizing the difference between a lob and a drive and move accordingly. Remember the 3 feet inside the service box is just a waypoint, you are not meant to plant yourself there and stay there. Split step there and go intercept any drives or get back for a lob.

Learn to read what your opponent is likely to do based on the quality of your approach shot. If you can pick up whether your opponent is going to get there late or early that will clue you into which directions they can hit. If they are late, they are extremely unlikely to go back crosscourt.

Great stuff, my instructor always says it's not enough to read the racket face (open or closed) you have to read the point of contact as well (early or late). That's what you are talking about.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
How good are your volleys?

i.e. if your groundstrokes are 4.5 caliber, are your volleys also 4.5 caliber?

IMHO, if your volleys are 4.0 caliber, you're going to need a 5.0 caliber serve to S&V well at the 4.5 level :)

5.0 serve and 4.0 volleys = Sampras model (serve > volley)
4.0 serve and 5.0 volleys = Edberg model (volley > serve)
4.5 serve and 4.5 volleys = Rafter model (serve = volley)
hehe, never of thought of it that way...
would mac be 4.5 serve & 5.0 volleys?
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
From what I'm gathering in your posts, it sounds like you're well on your way toward S&V proficiency. I grew up playing on grass courts, so I was playing S&V all summer as a kid. I used to do it exclusively, but now when I play on hard courts, it's often practical for me to play more points starting from the back court with a baseline rally. But I'm always looking for that short ball that I can attack and I also S&V once or twice per service game.

This instinct you're finding for keeping the ball low is solid gold for this style of play. Leave the ball up in a baseline sniper's strike zone and that sort of opponent will have much better looks at passing shots. The slice is sometimes "poo-poo'ed" as an old-school relic, but if we hit it correctly it skids low, stays under a big hitter's strike zone, and it also flies more slowly to the far end of the court, so it gives us time for an extra step forward.

A slice approach generally turns tragic when the attacker hits a slice with improper technique or is simply not patient. When we make contact too far out ahead of us (toward the net), the racquet face will tend to open up, slide under the ball, and pop up a floating slice instead of driving it and producing that nice low skidder. It's important to understand this key transition shot - it will make S&V life wonderful for you if your slice is decent.

The other low shot to keep in mind is the semi short sort of "soft slice" that also skids and stays low, but lands shorter in the court and forces an opponent to almost lunge forward and scoop the ball up - it forces the other guy to hit what I like to call a snow-shovel shot. Impossible for the opponent to drive a ball from there, but the only trouble they might make is to hit a decent lob off their shoelaces. Not entirely routine for attacking the net in a singles setting, but this shot can be lots of trouble when playing doubles.

I'll echo the sentiment that some of our pals already offered above. When you're going to attack the net, that decision happens before you hit the ball that you follow forward. That means that you're going in immediately behind your serve or after hitting a short ball where your forward momentum carries you through the shot (with footwork including the carioca step). As you go to the net more and more, you'll develop the instincts for what to do and when to do it.

There's no one set formula to this style of play. One key to effective S&V play is to think like a baseball pitcher and be unpredictable. That could mean occasionally staying back after a first serve, but then following a second serve to the net. Even managing your serving like a baseball pitcher might keep a returner guessing more often and that can force some weak returns that you can jump on, too.

One general guideline that is rather close to pure gospel is worth noting - more for attacking a short ball than when following a serve to the net. When you hit an approach shot off a short ball and follow that shot to the net, it's smart to hit your approach shot straight ahead or down-the-line and NOT cross-court. That keeps at least part of the court closed off to your opponent as you cross no man's land.

If we approach behind an angled shot, that gives the opponent a chance at a down-the-line pass and sometimes even the opportunity to hit a passing shot at an angle back behind us. Cracking open the court with a wide serve is a little different when using a S&V attack, but remember that it's good to put an opponent in a box so that we can then volley toward daylight.
my issue/challenge is being able to hit that short slow slice... my tendency is to volley back deep on neutral balls, but after a while, they just stand back, and wait for it...
being able to attack the short court will force them to stand in closer to the baseline, making the deep volley much more effective
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
If I had high level groundstrokes, I might serve and hang back and then look for a short ball to approach on and go from there.

I distinctly remember watching an old Vic Braden VHS on approach shots and court positioning that really helped me gain experience without having to think too much.

Basically, he said if you can put your approach shot in the backhand corner within a 4 foot square and get yourself 3 feet inside the service line and 3 feet inside the center service line, you can cover about 95% of all possible replies. Then you just have to focus on recognizing the difference between a lob and a drive and move accordingly. Remember the 3 feet inside the service box is just a waypoint, you are not meant to plant yourself there and stay there. Split step there and go intercept any drives or get back for a lob.

Learn to read what your opponent is likely to do based on the quality of your approach shot. If you can pick up whether your opponent is going to get there late or early that will clue you into which directions they can hit. If they are late, they are extremely unlikely to go back crosscourt.
definitley an area i struggle with, recognizing what they are going to do, earlier.
 

Dan R

Professional
The problem is not that you didn't hit the serve wide enough: it's that you didn't arrest your forward momentum and thus weren't balanced when the lob came. If you were balanced, you could have reacted more quickly.

IMO, being balanced is more important than being close to the net.



Hitting a half-volley is not necessarily an indication you did anything wrong: a good enough return will force you hit a HV. Just accept it.

Also, being forced to hit a HV doesn't mean you've automatically lost the point [I'm getting the sense that is how you feel]. Someone with decent hands can hit it deep and make the opponent try to pass.

The problem seems to be that you hesitated moving forward until you saw it was a great serve and THAT is what caused you hit a HV. The remedy is to just approach the net after your serve rather than hesitating.


I can tell (generally) at the point I hit a serve if it's good or not. I don't wait to see, it's just a feel, and that's what I'm assessing. I kind of know before I hit it - if the toss is good if I feel balanced, and then I can feel the impact. If it's clean I'm moving ahead pretty quick. If not I will just take a step or two in and see what I get back. That's what I'm referring to. You're 100% right that I need to develop the instincts and trust the instincts, but that will come with experience. I don't think I'm a natural at this but I'm pretty determined to learn it because I think it's fun.
 

Dan R

Professional
my issue/challenge is being able to hit that short slow slice... my tendency is to volley back deep on neutral balls, but after a while, they just stand back, and wait for it...
being able to attack the short court will force them to stand in closer to the baseline, making the deep volley much more effective

My tendency is to hit these too hard. My instructor always says hit those slow and keep them low, and that I hit approach shots with too much pace and spin and the ball sits up and can be chased down.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I serve and move towards the net nicely, return is average, not really forcing me to lunge much, net guy is around the service line returner is just inside the baseline Tell me about my options here re my first volley. Why am I asking? Coz I’ve been in this position a hundred times last night. I noticed I keep volleying to either guy’s perfect hitting zone for some weird reason, like a magnet effect:p. When they try to pass me I usually do well and finish the point or my partner does somehow. Now the clever bstard lobs me and point is over. So the question is if your first volley is not good enough to force the opponent you pretty much lost the point, right? (Well, I’m sort of moving forward after the first volley, so I feel there’s not much I can do for the lob) I tried my best to avoid ‘it depends’ replies!:D
 
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S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
I serve and move towards the net nicely, return is average, not really forcing me to lunge much, net guy is around the service line returner is just inside the baseline Tell me about my options here re my first volley.

Critical variable: height of the ball. if it's at your shoelaces, about the best you can do is block it back deep and keep moving forward. Also have to watch for the net man poaching.

If it's shoulder-high, you have a sitter and should attack the net man. if he's standing very close to the center, I'll go DTL into the alley.

If it's neutral [ie slightly below net height], I'll occasionally go DTL just to see if I can catch the net man sleeping. Otherwise, I'll usually go deep. Sometimes I'll angle it short to make him move forward and hit up and rarely I'll drop volley.


Why am I asking? Coz I’ve been in this position a hundred times last night. I noticed I keep volleying to either guy’s perfect hitting zone for some weird reason, like a magnet effect:p.

This is not a problem if you had to hit a defensive volley [I'd prefer to hit it at the BL guy because that gives me more time to get to the net].

If you have an offensive chance, you should not be hitting it back to the BL guy because he has the most time/space to set up.


When they try to pass me I usually do well and finish the point or my partner does somehow. Now the clever bstard lobs me and point is over. So the question is if your first volley is not good enough to force the opponent you pretty much lost the point, right?

What a pessimist you are! ;)

Have some faith in your volley capability!

Yes, if you volley a sitter it gives the BL guy a chance to wind up. But that doesn't mean they're always going to win the point. They still have to pass you somehow or force an error.

If a mere lob [not a great TS lob] wins them the point, you are:
- too aggressive in your net positioning
- not reading the shot quickly enough
- not using good footwork to move backwards

You need to work on these skills to the point where you *welcome* a lob.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
I serve and move towards the net nicely, return is average, not really forcing me to lunge much, net guy is around the service line returner is just inside the baseline Tell me about my options here re my first volley. Why am I asking? Coz I’ve been in this position a hundred times last night. I noticed I keep volleying to either guy’s perfect hitting zone for some weird reason, like a magnet effect:p. When they try to pass me I usually do well and finish the point or my partner does somehow. Now the clever bstard lobs me and point is over. So the question is if your first volley is not good enough to force the opponent you pretty much lost the point, right? (Well, I’m sort of moving forward after the first volley, so I feel there’s not much I can do for the lob) I tried my best to avoid ‘it depends’ replies!:D

You might want to study some videos to get a feel for general S&V doubles strategy.

Find a good S&V doubles team, at a realistic level that you would like to play at (i.e. strategy for Pros or D1 college probably not applicable to your level), and watch how they handle a similar situation. For example:



 
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