Serve and Volley

Smecz

Smecz

Professional
Is there a chance that serve and volley from 90s will come back or is there no chance?!.
One of the few that use most of serve and volley is Pierre Hugues Herbert.

Mainly it's single game, the double game doesn't count.

What do you think about serve and volley in modern tennis?and Do you know any tennis player who uses serve and volley?
 
At the pro level, no, I don't think it'll come back. You might see an occasional player be able to pull it off, but it won't ever be as common or dominant as it was. Racquet and string technology make it too easy to challenge the serve and volley-er.

At lower levels though, while it is still more difficult than it used to be, it's definitely not as difficult at it is at the pro level and can still be a very good strategy.
 
Smecz said:
Is there a chance that serve and volley from 90s will come back or is there no chance?!.
One of the few that use most of serve and volley is Pierre Hugues Herbert.

Mainly it's single game, the double game doesn't count.

What do you think about serve and volley in modern tennis?and Do you know any tennis player who uses serve and volley?
Click to expand...
for some reason people don't like watching serve and volley so no it won't come back. Its all about the money
 
Yeah I don’t think we’ll see it come back. I feel like this year people have been using it more. It’s a good tool and players have been catching opponents off guard or out of position. If maxime was a decent player from the baseline he would dominate.
 
Imagine starting tennis at age 7. All your peers play baseline tennis.
Then when you get to age 10, you start playing tournaments. All your peers and everyone who beats you play baseline tennis.
Everyone you see at every tournament plays baseline tennis.
You are too small and uncoordinated to cover court from net position for another 4 years.
Why would you embrace net play?
 
LuckyR said:
Nope, not about the money. It's about the coaching. If they don't encourage it, their pupils won't play it on the Tour.

Maxime Cressy is pretty much S&V. He's been ranked 31 in the world this year.
Click to expand...

For as much as I personally enjoy watching Cressy knife volleys, it’s worth noting that he’s 6’7”/8”.

That height combined with his wingspan is what allows him to pull off S&V as his dominant play style in the 2020s

By comparison, the great S&V players of the 80s/90s were all under 6’4”.

I don’t think a sub 6’4 player can reliably rush the net against contemporary baseliner because there’s just too much shape on the ball.

Generally speaking, cressy handles big flat bangers fairly well, but the players cressy losses to the most are the ones who get the most shape on the ball. (Assuming of course that he’s not double faulted in a tiebreak)

What keeps him in the game is advantages granted by height: a power serve, an at times total immunity to being lobbed, and long arms to snake any mediocre passes.

S&V isn’t extinct but It’s not going to make a massive comeback as players dominant style anytime soon
 
Lazuras_Long said:
For as much as I personally enjoy watching Cressy knife volleys, it’s worth noting that he’s 6’7”/8”.

That height combined with his wingspan is what allows him to pull off S&V as his dominant play style in the 2020s

By comparison, the great S&V players of the 80s/90s were all under 6’4”.

I don’t think a sub 6’4 player can reliably rush the net against contemporary baseliner because there’s just too much shape on the ball.

Generally speaking, cressy handles big flat bangers fairly well, but the players cressy losses to the most are the ones who get the most shape on the ball. (Assuming of course that he’s not double faulted in a tiebreak)

What keeps him in the game is advantages granted by height: a power serve, an at times inability to be lobbed, and long arms to snake any mediocre passes.

S&V isn’t extinct but It’s not going to make a massive comeback as players dominant style anytime soon
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Well, yes and no. I agree that it isn't going to come back as a stand alone game. But I do see a resurgence of the all court game with S&V being a part of most player's répertoire.

As to Cressy, sure he's taller than the S&V greats in the Golden Age of tennis, but since the average height in the ATP is equally taller, there would be plenty of players who could pull it off, but won't.
 
Nobody gets to the top of tennis as a serve and volley player any more. Federer is the classic example, he was a very capable serve and volleyer but became much better when he abandoned it for a more baseline-focused game

Conditions have only become more inhospitable to S&V since then - it is now exclusively the preserve of lanky servebots who are too big and slow to move and strike the ball effectively at the baseline

The recent mini-resurgence amongst top players is mostly down to the fact that the pendulum has swung so far in the opposite direction that there is an unfamiliarity value in incorporating some S&V in your game. But by definition that means it will always be limited to a niche role.

I do think it is highly underrated at the recreational level however
 
LuckyR said:
Nope, not about the money. It's about the coaching. If they don't encourage it, their pupils won't play it on the Tour.

Maxime Cressy is pretty much S&V. He's been ranked 31 in the world this year.
Click to expand...
I meant the money for the tour. They think that people want 40 shot points and 8 hour matches so they changed the court to make it slow and less S&V friendly. People dont play it because its at a disadvantage on slow courts. So of course coaches dont teach it. If everything was fast more coaches would teach S&V
 
Well, there's Isner. Kyrgios does it a lot. And Cressy as mentioned. Somebody else will come along. But they'll be in the minority.
Sampras would be top 10 today.
 
Bill Lobsalot said:
Well, there's Isner. Kyrgios does it a lot. And Cressy as mentioned. Somebody else will come along. But they'll be in the minority.
Sampras would be top 10 today.
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That’s just nostalgia.

I’d place Tommy Paul as the closest to being Sampras-esque both in terms of physique and talent. While Paul’s had a decent career, he’s not seen anywhere near the same levels of success.
 
Bill Lobsalot said:
Well, there's Isner. Kyrgios does it a lot. And Cressy as mentioned. Somebody else will come along. But they'll be in the minority.
Sampras would be top 10 today.
Click to expand...

I don't recall Isner S&Ving a lot [although I've always thought he should do it more than he does].

Kyrgios: I wouldn't say "a lot" although he does use it as a change-up more often than his peers.

Dustin Brown: what an artist.

Misha Zverev: beat Murray at the AO a few years back; S&V the whole way. But I noticed in subsequent years he wasn't doing it as often.

Benoit Paire: probably looking for the highlight reel shot. But when he gets it...

 
Cashman said:
lol, hottest take I've seen for a while
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Its as much a statement on my belief that Sampras’s success was a direct product of his era than a statement about Tommy Paul’s talent.


I will note however, that I would also say the same about the Big Three if they were forced to go back in time and play with the tools of a bygone era.


Bill Lobsalot said:
Aren't we talking about S&V?
Click to expand...


Yes, as a viable choice for a players dominant strategic play style.


My point in referencing Paul was to indicate that if S&V declined simply because people stopped teaching it to juniors, then surely someone coached by Brad Stine would have been introduced too it as a possible option.

Yet we don’t see him embracing it, instead Paul plays closer to Courier who was also coached by Stine.
 
Maybe a very tall guy can win some big titles on fast courts like Cincinnati and the indoor tournaments if he has a huge serve and is very talented at the net. But, I still don’t see him winning much on the slow courts that predominate for most of the year. The players are able to bend the ball too much with spin and create unbelievable angles on passing shots with poly as long as they have the split second to set up properly for the shot - heck, they hit a lot of crazy passes when they don’t have time and are in the full run even. And so many tall players return so well even off 130mph serves.

What I notice in doubles increasingly on the ATP tour at Indian Wells is that return teams are playing 2-back a lot and are really going for huge returns so that the first volley by the serving team is not great. Then it seems that the two baseliners on the return team seem to have the advantage over the two net players in the rally as long as they have time to set up for their shots. Servers are starting to not come to net on 2nd serves and are playing 1-back. It is a huge change from how doubles looked like even 7-10 years ago when it was common to see many points with all four players at the net. The WTA still looks like more traditional doubles, but the ATP’s increasing power is making net play a bit of a hot seat.
 
Smecz said:
Is there a chance that serve and volley from 90s will come back or is there no chance?!.
One of the few that use most of serve and volley is Pierre Hugues Herbert.

Mainly it's single game, the double game doesn't count.

What do you think about serve and volley in modern tennis?and Do you know any tennis player who uses serve and volley?
Click to expand...
I was a pure serve and volley player as a kid because I learned at a club with grass courts, but I had to work hard at my baseline proficiency later on when I started playing mostly on hard courts. I've never had abilities that could have carried me to a pro level, but I've always had a keen appreciation for how the S&V style of play along with a healthy all-court attacking style are put to use among all sorts of players.

It's hard to believe that big-time S&V play will become really popular again, but I also DON'T think it will become completely extinct. I think that there will always be a few of those players who have the sort of athleticism, aggression, and wing span that make them much more troublesome for opponents when jumping on the net behind a serve compared with staying back and grinding from the baseline.

It seems that becoming a good S&V'er also requires a little luck early on. Coaches often shepherd players along the shortest path to some sort of competitive success where they teach a big serve, solid forehand, and not too much else. Building a player into a competent S&V'er requires a little bit of a leap of faith to reach some competitive success, but it also means that a player and a coach of a similar mind need to find each other.

Even if pure S&V play doesn't make a big comeback, I believe that the tennis world - primarily the WTA - is just begging for more all-court play. I see enough of this style with ATP matches to occasionally warm my heart, but I think the WTA is in a borderline pathetic state. Too much baseline batting practice where too many matches come down to who is going to land a few extra rips on that particular day.

Ash Barty recently retired after becoming the #1 player on the planet by a rather healthy margin. Whenever I'd watch her in action, she seemed to routinely outclass the competition because she clearly had more tools at her disposal, including solid skills for attacking short balls. Barty gave her peers the blueprint for winning, but we'll see whether anybody embraces a similar blueprint somewhere down the road.

S&V allows the server to put the returner under pressure right away. When facing an opponent who is at least as strong as you are from the baseline, it makes sense to have ways to get an edge on that sort of player - let's call it a Plan B. That makes S&V a great option, but it demands some time and effort to develop the style and trust it. Not everyone wants to make that investment.
 
Cressy does it all the time

Some players mix it in, off the top of my head, Seb Korda sometimes, I've seen Alcaraz, etc.
 
Connor35 said:
Cressy does it all the time

Some players mix it in, off the top of my head, Seb Korda sometimes, I've seen Alcaraz, etc.
Click to expand...

Cressy's the only one I know of that does it as Plan A; everyone else sprinkles it in occasionally [even Djokovic & Nadal].

S&V is almost non-existent on the women's side, probably because the returns are often stronger than the serves.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
I don't recall Isner S&Ving a lot [although I've always thought he should do it more than he does].

Kyrgios: I wouldn't say "a lot" although he does use it as a change-up more often than his peers.

Dustin Brown: what an artist.

Misha Zverev: beat Murray at the AO a few years back; S&V the whole way. But I noticed in subsequent years he wasn't doing it as often.

Benoit Paire: probably looking for the highlight reel shot. But when he gets it...

Click to expand...

I forget about these players, they have very good level of serve and volley.
Especially Mischa Zverev and Dustin Brown, a pleasure to watch.

I'd like this style to come back,it's very strange that it is not played not like that a wimbledon.

Here is power of serve and volley:

Such matches should come back!
 
Smecz said:
I forget about these players, they have very good level of serve and volley.
Especially Mischa Zverev and Dustin Brown, a pleasure to watch.

I'd like this style to come back,it's very strange that it is not played not like that a wimbledon.

Here is power of serve and volley:

Such matches should come back!
Click to expand...
Thats not strange, since they made the grass that much slower around 2001, and probably even slower later. Federer said one year it was slower than clay..
 
morten said:
Thats not strange, since they made the grass that much slower around 2001, and probably even slower later. Federer said one year it was slower than clay..
Click to expand...

I see, this is action is illogical, I don't understand.It's sure about money, let the match go on as long as possible.
You know money is important, but not at expense of tennis...
 
If the serve is really really good it is doable. Otherwise i love when someone does this foolish move against me.
 
For sure, we need more S&V players needs to return to Wimbledon or at least mix it up. Endless baseline rallies every game are not a turn on. Glad to see King Novak improved his game so much over the years that he does come to the net more on grass and hard courts.
 
Curious said:
@S&V-not_dead_yet
Would you get better faster on your volleys and hence s&v if you used slice only on your groundstrokes say for a few months?
Click to expand...

I already do a fair amount of slicing, particularly on my BH, so doing it exclusively wouldn't be as big of a change as for other people.

If you're talking about someone who rarely slices and also needs a lot of work on their volleys, I could see it potentially helping but a better use of time would be to actually volley.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
I already do a fair amount of slicing, particularly on my BH, so doing it exclusively wouldn't be as big of a change as for other people.

If you're talking about someone who rarely slices and also needs a lot of work on their volleys, I could see it potentially helping but a better use of time would be to actually volley.
Click to expand...
Would someone who exclusively slices both backhand and forehand groundstrokes have higher chance of hitting better volleys compared to someone who doesn’t?
 
Curious said:
Would someone who exclusively slices both backhand and forehand groundstrokes have higher chance of hitting better volleys compared to someone who doesn’t?
Click to expand...

I'd think yes, insofar as there are similarities between the slice GS and volley. How much is up for debate. The worse someone is with slices and volleys, the more they have to potentially gain from your idea. However, the same could be said about more traditional practice drills.

And there are a lot of other factors that go into good volleys like the footwork, the approach, recognizing when to attack [you don't typically hit slice winners from the BL], dealing with the half volley, and the fact that you're maybe 65-70' closer to the net and your reaction time will be tested.

Again, I see other ways of improving volley skill that will yield more benefit, IMO.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
I'd think yes, insofar as there are similarities between the slice GS and volley. How much is up for debate. The worse someone is with slices and volleys, the more they have to potentially gain from your idea. However, the same could be said about more traditional practice drills.

And there are a lot of other factors that go into good volleys like the footwork, the approach, recognizing when to attack [you don't typically hit slice winners from the BL], dealing with the half volley, and the fact that you're maybe 65-70' closer to the net and your reaction time will be tested.

Again, I see other ways of improving volley skill that will yield more benefit, IMO.
Click to expand...
Didn’t really mean to do that to improve volleys, was just wondering if it could be a side benefit if you’re already slicing everything? Just curious :)
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
I'd think yes, insofar as there are similarities between the slice GS and volley. How much is up for debate. The worse someone is with slices and volleys, the more they have to potentially gain from your idea. However, the same could be said about more traditional practice drills.
Click to expand...
yes, ditto.

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Again, I see other ways of improving volley skill that will yield more benefit, IMO.
Click to expand...
For me it was paddle tennis (now called paddel ball) played on a short court which pickelball is trying to claim. We were first.
Anyway court locations are near SoCal beaches, St Augustine FL, and NY.
We use a paddle and use a pin to take the air out of the tennis ball. You get one underhand or groundstroke serve.
All other tennis rules and scoring remains.
One of 3 things will happen to you.
1. Your volleys will improve and start to gain better feel, execute touch drop volleys, bend very low, and have faster reflexes.
2. You'll be hit with the tennis ball a lot
3. not have a partner to play with if u don't progress.
Very simple.
 
Curious said:
Didn’t really mean to do that to improve volleys, was just wondering if it could be a side benefit if you’re already slicing everything? Just curious :)
Click to expand...

I try to play some mini tennis slice games whenever I can (few people like to do it). And I usually spend some time on the ball machine trying to dial in the slice approach. I don't think it helps with the volleys, but helps with the half volleys and slice approach shots when the opponent hits a low or unusual return.

The better my touch and feel, the more points I win from unexpected positions.
 
Most coaches who do group drills will do some kind of ‘liveball’ drill where they feed from the baseline at a quick pace to a baseline player and net player alternately who are playing two opponents on the other side in 1-back doubles formation. Players rotate in and out of the court when they make errors in a ‘king of the hill’ format. It promotes a lot of quick play at net and I’ve found that players improve their volleying fast - even faster if their volley fundamentals are sound.

Usually coaches will not give tips during liveball practice, but it is good cardio and the repetition is good for net play. You might get charged $20-30 for a 90-min session. It might be worthwhile to see if local tennis clubs have this and if they allow non-members to join when you are focusing on improving volleys.
 
LuckyR said:
Nope, not about the money. It's about the coaching. If they don't encourage it, their pupils won't play it on the Tour.

Maxime Cressy is pretty much S&V. He's been ranked 31 in the world this year.
Click to expand...

@Shroud is correct. It is about the money. It won’t come back. If it comes back then the ATP will try to kill it again

S&V was a great game to watch until the servers started overpowering . There were still fantastic servers before the 80s but there was finesse and touch also and a lot of rallies . Becker and later Sampras made the serve so dominant and rallies so short that watchability for the general public and for the TV audience started getting affected. I say this even though I am a huge Sampras fanboy.

That’s why doubles is a tough sport for the casual TV audience even though tennis fanatics love it. The ball is just moving too fast. Also in singles imagine a Isner vs Raonic or Karlovic match. It is just one big serve after the other with nothing else.

The ATP made a conscious decision with the court and the game to slow it down so that rallies could be extended and the overall skill and athleticism of their stars could be displayed. It has worked very well for them. Even Federer one of the greatest talents who could easily play S&V had to adjust. Now just imagine the challenges a lesser talented player will have to face to impose himself as a pure S&V player and break into the top 3. It will be very difficult when the league itself is against that.
 
Last edited:
mcs1970 said:
@Shroud is correct. It is about the money. It won’t come back. If it comes back then the ATP will try to kill it again

S&V was a great game to watch until the servers started overpowering . There were still fantastic servers before the 80s but there was finesse and touch also and a lot of rallies . Becker and later Sampras made the serve so dominant and rallies so short that watchability for the general public and for the TV audience started getting affected. I say this even though I am a huge Sampras fanboy.

That’s why doubles is a tough sport for the casual TV audience even though tennis fanatics love it. The ball is just moving too fast. Also in singles imagine a Isner vs Raonic or Karlovic match. It is just one big serve after the other with nothing else.

The ATP made a conscious decision with the court and the game to slow it down so that rallies could be extended and the overall skill and athleticism of their stars could be displayed. It has worked very well for them. Even Federer one of the greatest talents who could easily play S&V had to adjust. Now just imagine the challenges a lesser talented player will have to face to impose himself as a pure S&V player and break into the top 3. It will be very difficult when the league itself is against that.
Click to expand...
Except for the 1st sentence this was a great post.
 
I think the issue with serve and volley is that rackets no longer come off the shelf with the needed stability, and it's too easy to pass people.... Also naturally makes sense to learn serving and baseline play first.

Serve and volley is very cool, but usually have to be tall with a good serve to be effective.
 
mcs1970 said:
@Shroud is correct. It is about the money. It won’t come back. If it comes back then the ATP will try to kill it again

S&V was a great game to watch until the servers started overpowering . There were still fantastic servers before the 80s but there was finesse and touch also and a lot of rallies . Becker and later Sampras made the serve so dominant and rallies so short that watchability for the general public and for the TV audience started getting affected. I say this even though I am a huge Sampras fanboy.

That’s why doubles is a tough sport for the casual TV audience even though tennis fanatics love it. The ball is just moving too fast. Also in singles imagine a Isner vs Raonic or Karlovic match. It is just one big serve after the other with nothing else.

The ATP made a conscious decision with the court and the game to slow it down so that rallies could be extended and the overall skill and athleticism of their stars could be displayed. It has worked very well for them. Even Federer one of the greatest talents who could easily play S&V had to adjust. Now just imagine the challenges a lesser talented player will have to face to impose himself as a pure S&V player and break into the top 3. It will be very difficult when the league itself is against that.
Click to expand...

Well according to your (and Shrouds) theory there shouldn't be any Isners, Raonics and Karlovics since the ATP slowed the courts and balls so much.
 
I think it can. Fairly recently I saw a match between Shapavolov and a qualifier who was serve and volleying all the time ( sorry, I can't remember his name) and Shapavolov won about 6-4 6-4. I noticed that when he had a high first volley he had to make it pay, which he didn't always do. If it was a low volley, even if he punched the ball deep, with good spin, he was still easill passed. So it would have to be someone with a great serve, that elicits a lot of high volleys and either puts them away or something close to it.

For low volleys, possibly a drop volley would be effective.

I think it is possible, but it would have to be someone very very talented.
 
Equipment leads technique in that it affords advantages to certain ways of playing.

As a kid watching tennis I liked the contrast between styles of play and surfaces. It's what I think of as tennis, I think what we have now is baseline bash and its here to stay.

Slower courts, slower balls, poly, bigger rackets... in no particular order have led to one basic style of play dominating on all surfaces. If your the best on one surface your basic game is pretty much right at the top on any other (they're slight nuances).
As long as equipment stays similar baseline bash and domination by a few players is here to stay.

Alcaraz is as close to the next style of play that may allow him to pull himself apart once novak leaves us. His serve could be improved but baseline bash is ready to move to people following up a strong forehand (or shot) with a move forward to shorten points rather than give up the advantage in allowing a neutralising shot and another long boring same same rally to continue.

Basically gr8 movement, a 2 handed solid holding backhand as a minimum, strong forehand that can be followed up on a serve that warrants a plus 1, 3 or plus 5 will work unless technology either advances or is rolled back intentionally.
 
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