Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by luvforty, Feb 27, 2013.
are you seriously pancaking the ball?
no, I should not have used the term pancake.I thought it meant strings facing the ball.... I certainly did not mean the housewife pancake serve.
arche3 is not paying attention.... he is on xanax.
Maybe learn some common tennis terms before you offer anymore breakthroughs?
I'm pretty sure its the same guy too.
There you go. Now you are making sense. I had no idea what you are talking about with the pancake talk, but get that elbow away from the body and in line with the shoulders and you're on the right track to a big serve.
Hitting a big serve isn't necessarily about a bigger motion - watch Roddick. It is about getting into the proper position and then getting the chain flowing. It is interesting to hit bigger out of trophy than people with a huge looping windup because despite all the movement they aren't getting into the proper power positions. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with a bigger windup, just that the form still needs to be there during the crucial power phases of the serve.
Every big serve has a trophy position...which can be a wandering trophy, AND a big loop.
what i really meant to say was, from the trophy position, what the hand does feels like a 'pie in the face', instead of 'chop and hi five'.
pie, pancake - seemed close enough.
so you don't do a racquet drop? the butt cap never points at the ball?
4 pages of threads, no vid.
Can we settle for a continental grip?
at what point is he dropping racket...
if 'racket drop' means 'scratching the back'.... then I don't think he ever did.
but if 'racket drop' means opening that pie, and the racket head goes lower because his spine is tilted, then he did.
also - i don't think about butt cap to the ball... maybe at some point it does, probably when the shoulder over shoulder rotation is in progress
Pause at 31 seconds. Right there is racket drop.
@ fuji -
how do you scratch your back if it itches? you take a contraption to your back and move it up and down right? but that's not what Fed is doing here.
that's why I said - yes the racket head goes lower, but the drop is not a vertical drop like you scratch your back...
it's a 'rotational drop' as the ESR and supination is happening there.
and let me say this -
having been a victim of this misconception, and having how realized what a real serve should feel like -
i think the 'back scratch' concept is likely the biggest power leak in amateurs.
That's why most people use the term racket drop rather than "back scratch" these days.
Racket drop is still meaningful because if you look at some of these "help with my serve" threads, you'll see players who don't let the racket drop. It is sort of amazing. the racket head with these players will never drop or lag behind the hand much and they'll just go from trophy to slapping the ball without developing racket head speed.
@ fuji -
at 0.31 he has reached the extreme of the 'drop', right? as it looked like that was the lowest point it reached.
but, the REAL end of the back happened at 0.32, where ESR and supination reached it's extreme..
0.32 is where the powerful forward swing, ISR and pronation, starts.
what are you talking about? can you please use normal tennis terminology? I have no idea what you're describing in terms of your swing.
you can stop using the term 'back scratch'. nobody uses that anymore.
And also Roger is also known for not having a deep drop.
I see your point.
imo the name 'drop' is not that much better than 'scratch'... as usually when we think 'drop'.... it's a vertical drop in daily life sense.
I don't know. We're talking about the same thing with different terms.
For example, here's my serve, which doesn't have a huge "racket drop" but I do manage to get a decent amount of pop off my serve. This was before my shoulder got injured.
All this talk between guys using different terminology.
Just post a vid.
Or tell us you're using a version of continental grip.
Its cslled a drop because if you do it correctly then the racquet drops
@cheetah - not sure 'nobody is using back scratch' any more.
just saying the drop is the result of a rotation move (ESR + supination).
the racquet drops because the arm and wrist is LOOSE and the body goes up. you shouldn't be doing that stuff intentionally a la Toly. if you're doing it intentionally then you will have a weak serve. or at least much weaker than if done correctly.
@fuji - yes, we are talking about the same thing.
what is Toly?
Drop is a fine term. Just look at those pictures. You need to - at least on slow motion video - be able to see the racket head tip point at the ground and the handle butt pointing up in the air.
Drop is superior to "back scratch" because as you noted, the racket is behind the back, but definitely not close enough to scratch it when it is dropping.
The drop is just a natural element of using the racket efficiently as part of the throwing like motion. The hand lags the elbow much like a pitcher throwing, and the racket lags the hand.
Toly is a poster here. He advocates not using pronation in a serve and using intentional supination in the windup etc etc...
loose loose loose. everything is loose and relaxed. like a fh. like just about all motions in all sports at a high level. correct setup before moving forward will dictate all the proper movements. with exceptions for the extremes like a twist or kick or extreme top on a fh etc
ok... another question with the 'drop'.... does this imply that the lowest point that the racket tip reaches, is the end of the back swing?
Oh, I understand your position a little better.
Even the term "drop" could confuse someone who thinks they need to force the racket into that position.
When I'm teaching, I use the term "lag." I tell my students to relax enough to allow the hand and racket to lag. I do see some beginners try to force the racket down into the drop.
This is when LeeD's talk about throwing comes into play. Someone who throws a ball well allows the arm to externally rotate from the shoulder and let the hand lag. They are not trying to force the external rotation but allow it to happen as the body and elbow drive forward.
Allowing it to happen makes a big difference. This is why some of the biggest serves I've ever hit seem relatively "relaxed" in terms of muscular tension.
lag - I like.
During a high level serve. The racket drops or "lags" as the legs drive the shoulders and elbows up. So the "drop" is actually happening while the rear shoulder is moving up and the elbow is moving forward.
In my mind, the "drop" is actually a lagging part of the forward motion of the swing, so it occurs AFTER the backswing. In other words, the hand is already driving toward the target during the "drop." As you've mentioned, that's why the term "drop" may be sort of misleading and why I often use the term "lag."
Again, the terminology isn't that important. I prefer to shoot video and then show people what they are doing wrong.
say you hit a forehand with no loop, straight back (backswing), straigh forward (forward swing)...the end of the backswing would be the point that the racket tip reached furthest away from the ball.
at what point does the 'backswing' ends for the serve? I am saying it is not the lowest point of the 'drop', which is why i think it's misleading.... I like 'lag' better.
What high speed video camera might you be buying or borrowing to see what is really going on with your new serving motions? Check any golfer friends as golfers have many more high speed video cameras than any other group.
only hit about 50 of them today during a 2-hour hit... working on getting the elbow inline with the shoulders, but afterwards I realized that the hand position was too low... gotta correct next time.
1st serve percentage was about 50%.
balls only bounced a few inches up the fence today... 32F, no sun... I think the sun makes a difference... it heats up the cement and causes thermos to lift the ball.
Ha ha, dozu can't serve because he is too concerned with the terminology. Take my advice and get a few lessons. Your posts show so much ignorance. Its like your arguing that the wheel is round.
arche3 you missed your medication again.... why are you having this fixation that I am somebody else.
tennis lessons are for spoiled kids. real men figure out stuff on their own!
OK luv40. Sorry about calling you dozu.
But it is obvious you need some lessons. Or some help on court from someone who can actually play and teach tennis.
on lessons -
1. it would ruin all the fun of figuring out stuff; I have figured out pretty much everything... tennis is not easy, but not rocket science either for the analytic mind.
2. a few people i know have taken lessons and they aint getting any better... matter of fact they improved more from the tips I gave them than from the lessons.
3. this is quite similar to going to a doctor - in many cases, a person who can actually think maybe better off figuring it on his own than going to a doctor.... personal experience I had a few injuries in the past that ended better as a result of NOT taking the doctor's advice..... and I have seen plenty of instances of such on other people.... it all depends.
If you break your leg, I recommend that
you not try to reset it yourself...
Intense pain in kidneys or gall bladder
area? Same thing. Go see a doc.
I know you won't admit it because you don't want the reban but nonetheless it's clear...
Compare this post:
with this post:
You and dozu have a son that is the same age (6 in 2011, 8 now).
Also, compare this:
Use of "wonna" for "want to" (not very common), one-sentence paragraphs that start with lower case letters... your posts look identical.
Here's luvforty teaching how to hit a slice backhand:
Here's dozu teaching how to hit the slice backhand:
wow. great work Alves.
You're right. luv40 is Dozu.
hahahaha busted! It all makes sense now.
Busted. Admit it or I will report you. :sly:
Looks like it's time to set the dozu/luvforty vs arche3 match!
My match strategy advice for luvforty and arche3 remains the same.
more progress last night with proper use of shoulder over shoulder rotation, and the position of the elbow.
both slice and kick feels quite secure now....
used dead balls in 32 F weather, no sun, didn't get much juice on the ball..... curious to see what happens with fresh balls on a warmer day.
Separate names with a comma.