Serve consistency...racking my brain could use some help

[dohng]

Hi, I'm new here and might have literally watched every youtube video on serves. I'm a strong 4.0 player but the thing that is holding me back is my serve consistency (and my net game but that is another can of worms for another time).

I have gone through various grips, stances (pinpoint vs platform), tosses and such. Sometimes my serve rocks but inevitably I start double faulting and it gets in my head. I have even double faulted entire games away right after hitting every first serve in the previous. Links to a couple of my serves are below...if you have any critiques please let me know. Thank you in advance.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1KtMa542YTAbUZZZnhfeFNib28

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1KtMa542YTAZWFJRWFvVVkxQXc

 

[LeeD]

First of all, do you have a different second serve from your first serve? Most player's second serves are between 15-30 mph slower than their first serves, and if they are just hitting spin serves, maybe 15 mph difference in ball speeds.
Then, you'd be much more consistent on any and all serves if you would bend your elbows to 90 degrees at the trophy position. While some pros do start out with a semi straight arm like you do, they always bend the elbow to 90 degrees when the ball is up at zenith.
Lots of practice and repetition. Try to hit 30 second serves IN, in a row. Try for 50 % first serve percentages.

 

[dohng]

I've tried difference variations on the second serve. The one that has been most successful was getting a bit more aggressive on my grip (knuckle almost on bezel 1) and throwing the ball more over my head. This causes a crazy loopy serve that I'm not happy with and lacks consistency as well.

I'll try the 90 degrees tonight when I go hit and report back. Thank you for that feedback.

Also, does my right foot position matter when I get into the pinpoint position? I've noticed that I point my right foot outwards rather than the same direction as my left foot. Would that make a difference? Might be grasping at straws but after serving hundreds of practice serves, i'm willing to try anything.

Thanks again.

 

[LeeD]

Consistency is the key, and lots of practice the tool needed to gain consistency.
Are you aware a second serve goes around 20 mph SLOWER than your fast first serves? And most player's swing as fast or faster to hit their second serves.

 

[DonDiego]

1) Leave you left (tossing) arm up longer, it drops too fast.

2) Maybe throw your toss a little further into the court? I'd like to see you end up inside the court more after your swing.

 

[shindemac]

What you've shown is a flat serve. That's mainly a first serve, and not that reliable if you want to prevent double-faults. Use it as a first serve and add a proper second serve using spin. It's a different serve, different motion, toss, etc. There's no way to get a flat in and use it as a second serve, so there's one big problem.

If u want to put less pressure on your second, then you need to be able to get 70% of your flat in during practice, and hopefully get 50% in during matches. Yes, that 70 is pretty high, but I consider this feat as hard as getting a high free throw percentage, maybe easier since you have the entire box to get it into. There's a video of someone on utube going from low 20% up to 70% in a month for free throw practicing everyday for a month. It's mainly practice, practice, practice.

Topspin adds a margin of error so you don't have any double-faults. Once you get the motion down, then it gets pretty easy to avoid double-faults. It can take a long time to develop this, but it's worth it. The high first serve percentage is just icing on the cake; This is what you should be aiming for, a good second serve.

Yes, it takes a lot of balls to develop a good serve. You start to wonder if it's gonna get any better and i've been in the same shoes for my serves. But it does come together. The serve was the worst part of my game, but now I have a good first serve (for my level) and a reliable second serve. At times it feels unreal, and I thought i'd never be in this position where my serve is the strongest part of my game now and wins me easy games.

In short, practice, practice, practice. Never give up!

 

[jm1980]

What you've shown is a flat serve. That's mainly a first serve, and not that reliable if you want to prevent double-faults. Use it as a first serve and add a proper second serve using spin. It's a different serve, different motion, toss, etc. There's no way to get a flat in and use it as a second serve, so there's one big problem.

If u want to put less pressure on your second, then you need to be able to get 70% of your flat in during practice, and hopefully get 50% in during matches. Yes, that 70 is pretty high, but I consider this feat as hard as getting a high free throw percentage, maybe easier since you have the entire box to get it into. There's a video of someone on utube going from low 20% up to 70% in a month for free throw practicing everyday for a month. It's mainly practice, practice, practice.

Topspin adds a margin of error so you don't have any double-faults. Once you get the motion down, then it gets pretty easy to avoid double-faults. It can take a long time to develop this, but it's worth it. The high first serve percentage is just icing on the cake; This is what you should be aiming for, a good second serve.

Yes, it takes a lot of balls to develop a good serve. You start to wonder if it's gonna get any better and i've been in the same shoes for my serves. But it does come together. The serve was the worst part of my game, but now I have a good first serve (for my level) and a reliable second serve. At times it feels unreal, and I thought i'd never be in this position where my serve is the strongest part of my game now and wins me easy games.

In short, practice, practice, practice. Never give up!

I can't see the video but I would highly advise against the use of flat serves period. No pro serves truly flat for a good reason (extremely low %) unless you're a giant and can hit straight down.

Sampras, for example, averaged well over 2500 rpm on his first serves which were hit at 120-130mph.

 

[Tight Lines]

I've tried difference variations on the second serve. The one that has been most successful was getting a bit more aggressive on my grip (knuckle almost on bezel 1) and throwing the ball more over my head. This causes a crazy loopy serve that I'm not happy with and lacks consistency as well.

This does not seem right to me. Whenever I have problems with my second serve, I change the grip all the way to backhand Eastern, i.e., index knuckle on bevel 1. That always works for me although the ball slows down a lot. How is it inconsistent for you when you do this?

 

[LeeD]

I"m with Tight Lines.
When my second serves wander a bit, I switch to full eastern backhand grip, throw the ball over my head, and swing absolutlely as fast as I can, hoping for a fast ball, but knowing it's a pure slow moving very high RPM spin ball, topspin, that I aim 4' above the net, make it around 3', and it goes in most every time. I constantly fight to increase net clearance, but it automatically get's lower and lower until my short second serves get crushed to my feet.

 

[shindemac]

I can't see the video but I would highly advise against the use of flat serves period. No pro serves truly flat for a good reason (extremely low %) unless you're a giant and can hit straight down.

Sampras, for example, averaged well over 2500 rpm on his first serves which were hit at 120-130mph.

I agree w you, but not whole-heartedly. It would be nice to sublime out of this (phase change from solid to gas), but it isn't possible. It's an awkward phase kinda like a tweener or the teenage years. Flat is easy to learn for beginners and a lot of fundamentals can be practiced on this serve type. But there isn't enough juice left on the flat to hit with some spin (aka flatten a topspin serve out and use it as a first). At this stage, there is no control, no power, not enough spin, no consistency etc. If he hits a flat-top for a first serve, then it won't be consistent enough, have even less power, etc. which negates the advantage of the first serve. It'll basically be a floater (or maybe medium paced ball) that sits up in the strike zone, and that's not what a first serve should be used for. At least with his current flat serve, he can get some free points with it which makes a big difference (since there's only 4 points to win a game). It'll be low percentage, but I feel there's no point in using 2 second serves. If he uses 2 second serves, that's even worse (even less power and less chance of winning points on first serve). There's no point in using 2 topspin serves aka two high percentage serves; You're just wasting one of the serves.

This may not make much sense now unless you've gone thru the various stages. So what to do about this conundrum? First thing is develop a consistent second serve (which i mentioned). Then develop a "good" flat serve. I consider it a milestone every player should hit, if they want to get better. If you have a 20% flat serve in practice, there's no way topspin will save even your second serve. So essentially, you want to attain a good enough consistency on your flat serve, then never use it again. At that point, hopefully, you have enough power and control to add some spin to your first serve, and still have it be a weapon.

So yes, you do want to add spin to your flat serve, but it isn't possible for the Op at this point in time. I mean, it sounds like he doesn't even have a second serve yet, and asking him to add some spin is out of the question. (Meaning can he flatten out his spin serve and leave enough power on it to use as a first serve) Basically, it's a progression and you need to get out of No Man's Land.

 

[steve s]

If you are nervous on your 2cd serve it shows that you care. If you care, you can improve your second serve.

Saying you are a strong 4.0. but can not hit a second serve, or volley, is not helping us.

We need to hear your approach for hitting your second serve.

I used to hit my first serve at 80%, my second at 70%, used this in college, and 75% in golf today, to keep it in the grass.

Now days, a second serves with spin, with no loss or increase in racquet head is used. I try to do this, yet still double.

 

[jm1980]

I agree w you, but not whole-heartedly. It would be nice to sublime out of this (phase change from solid to gas), but it isn't possible. It's an awkward phase kinda like a tweener or the teenage years. Flat is easy to learn for beginners and a lot of fundamentals can be practiced on this serve type. But there isn't enough juice left on the flat to hit with some spin (aka flatten a topspin serve out and use it as a first). At this stage, there is no control, no power, not enough spin, no consistency etc. If he hits a flat-top for a first serve, then it won't be consistent enough, have even less power, etc. which negates the advantage of the first serve. It'll basically be a floater (or maybe medium paced ball) that sits up in the strike zone, and that's not what a first serve should be used for. At least with his current flat serve, he can get some free points with it which makes a big difference (since there's only 4 points to win a game). It'll be low percentage, but I feel there's no point in using 2 second serves. If he uses 2 second serves, that's even worse (even less power and less chance of winning points on first serve). There's no point in using 2 topspin serves aka two high percentage serves; You're just wasting one of the serves.

This may not make much sense now unless you've gone thru the various stages. So what to do about this conundrum? First thing is develop a consistent second serve (which i mentioned). Then develop a "good" flat serve. I consider it a milestone every player should hit, if they want to get better. If you have a 20% flat serve in practice, there's no way topspin will save even your second serve. So essentially, you want to attain a good enough consistency on your flat serve, then never use it again. At that point, hopefully, you have enough power and control to add some spin to your first serve, and still have it be a weapon.

So yes, you do want to add spin to your flat serve, but it isn't possible for the Op at this point in time. I mean, it sounds like he doesn't even have a second serve yet, and asking him to add some spin is out of the question. (Meaning can he flatten out his spin serve and leave enough power on it to use as a first serve) Basically, it's a progression and you need to get out of No Man's Land.

I pretty much started out with a hard slice/topspin first serve, which I still use to this day. In the beginning I used a softer slice as my second serve, but shortly after I started using topspin/kick for a second serve. It used to not kick enough and kind of sit there, but I steadily improved it.

Looking back I wouldn't have done it any differently... Maybe I would started out trying to use topspin on all serves. I think there's data showing topspin serves are the most effective serves at the rec level, both as a first and second serve.

 

[WildVolley]

If you're double-faulting a lot, the first order of business should be to work on a consistent topspin serve. Topspin will give you much more margin on the serve even with the inconsistency you currently are demonstrating. From what I saw, you are going to need more of a vertical component of the swing at contact. You seem to be getting good brush on the serve, but focus a little more on the topspin component. You should move the toss a little more to the left and contact it slightly lower than in the video.

It seemed that your toss was not consistent in the two serves on the second video and your footwork pattern was not consistent. I would suggest dropping your toss height by at least a foot. This will affect the timing of the serve, but should help you place the ball with more accuracy.

It appears you foot-fault on the second serve in that video. Decide on a consistent footwork pattern and then stick with it for a while. If I were you, I might even consider sticking with a platform stance for your second serve rather than chasing the ball.

To analyze your serve, it would be better to have the camera fixed behind you so you can see the full toss and the contact point. Check the variation in toss height and contact point. You want to drill until you are hitting each serve in a fairly consistent fashion.

 

[tlm]

Agree with wild volley but I would suggest slice serve first then go to more of a topspin serve. The slice serve is pretty easy to learn and can be very effective for a second serve. Just focus on cutting accross the ball and once you learn the right amount of force and brush you can get a consistent 2 second serve.

 

[shindemac]

I've tried difference variations on the second serve. The one that has been most successful was getting a bit more aggressive on my grip (knuckle almost on bezel 1) and throwing the ball more over my head. This causes a crazy loopy serve that I'm not happy with and lacks consistency as well.

It's hard to tell what's in his toolbox of serves, so i had to make some educated guesses. I'm guessing he doesn't have a slice serve, and from the sounds of it, a pretty underdeveloped topspin serve. To be clear, my advice was geared more towards the Op's specific situation. Yes, for someone new, I'd start them off with slice first. So something like:
Flat
3.0 slice
3.5 topslice
4.0 topspin
then kick, twist, etc.

Op is already a high 4.0 according to him, so he is far behind on his second serve. Yes, he can still learn slice first and use that progression I listed; It's always an option. But I was in a similar situation to Op: decent flat and loopy, inconsistent second serve. I'm guessing he wants to keep his flat since it's a weapon for him and wins him free points. Yea, if his first serve is rubbish, then he could stick to 2 second serves, otherwise it would be too drastic a change and cause him to lose his advantage and games. Assuming his first serve is good, then he prolly should/wants to improve his second serve, and then improve his first serve until he has enough juice left over to add some topspin so that his serve is never vulnerable. Like i said, i don't know what the Op's exact intentions are, but maybe he's ok with rebuilding his serve and taking the losses and dropping his rating potentially. I dunno, but he's in a pickle and he needs to get out of the jar soon.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

I agree w you, but not whole-heartedly. It would be nice to sublime out of this (phase change from solid to gas), but it isn't possible. It's an awkward phase kinda like a tweener or the teenage years. Flat is easy to learn for beginners and a lot of fundamentals can be practiced on this serve type. But there isn't enough juice left on the flat to hit with some spin (aka flatten a topspin serve out and use it as a first). At this stage, there is no control, no power, not enough spin, no consistency etc. If he hits a flat-top for a first serve, then it won't be consistent enough, have even less power, etc. which negates the advantage of the first serve. It'll basically be a floater (or maybe medium paced ball) that sits up in the strike zone, and that's not what a first serve should be used for. At least with his current flat serve, he can get some free points with it which makes a big difference (since there's only 4 points to win a game). It'll be low percentage, but I feel there's no point in using 2 second serves. If he uses 2 second serves, that's even worse (even less power and less chance of winning points on first serve). There's no point in using 2 topspin serves aka two high percentage serves; You're just wasting one of the serves.

This may not make much sense now unless you've gone thru the various stages. So what to do about this conundrum? First thing is develop a consistent second serve (which i mentioned). Then develop a "good" flat serve. I consider it a milestone every player should hit, if they want to get better. If you have a 20% flat serve in practice, there's no way topspin will save even your second serve. So essentially, you want to attain a good enough consistency on your flat serve, then never use it again. At that point, hopefully, you have enough power and control to add some spin to your first serve, and still have it be a weapon.

So yes, you do want to add spin to your flat serve, but it isn't possible for the Op at this point in time. I mean, it sounds like he doesn't even have a second serve yet, and asking him to add some spin is out of the question. (Meaning can he flatten out his spin serve and leave enough power on it to use as a first serve) Basically, it's a progression and you need to get out of No Man's Land.

Okay, this guy says he's a strong 4.0 with a freebie of a service game. That means his other shots (returns and groundstrokes) are WAY above the 4.0 level to compensate, or he's a massive ****ing liar. Assuming he isn't lying his ass off, this means he can get away with (and will be MASSIVELY more successful with) just getting serves in. Why do you think Nadal was #2 in the world with a 100 mph first serve? Because he was godlike from the baseline and had very competent volleys. If you rallied with that guy, you were bound to lose the point. He doesn't NEED a first serve for a weapon yet, he's a "strong 4.0" and is managing that WITHOUT A SERVE. Give him a slice serve, have him use it on first and second serves, and he will probably get to 4.5 off of just that.


As for his serve.

1) The racket drops too early. Your leg drive should be what forces your racket to drop.
2) Left arm should either reach up more or stay up longer.
3) Why are you laying back the wrist so early? Your racket isn't even ready to drop, and you're already laying back your wrist to drop the racket.
4) Think of the toe issue like this: What are you looking to do in your service motion? You're looking to go up and then forward, right? So ask yourself, if you were looking to jump up or forward (technically sideways) into the court, how would you instinctively do it? Pretty damn sure your toe wouldn't be pointed out. It'd either be parallel to the baseline or pointed towards the court to some degree. Not the biggest deal, but something you could "optimize".
5) Are you trying to hit a volleyball serve? It looks like you're jumping then hitting.
6) Toss seems off.

Okay, here's what I want you to do:
1) Practice tosses. The 3rd serve you shuffled your feet to compensate for your toss being off. Either don't hit the ball or fix your toss. I also want the toss a little closer to your body. The arm and shoulder position at contact is good, but I want the ball a little more to the left. This lets your racket go up and across the back of the ball more easily, allowing for more consistency. Not a massive change, but since you gave us 3 serves and one of them turned up with a bad toss, I feel like you should at least practice your tosses a little bit.
2) Fix the toe thing. Makes it easier to use your leg drive to power your hip rotation. It's also resulting in that weird leg position you have in the air.
3) Look at Roddick's serve. Note the power position. Tossing arm stretched up, right hand still isn't raised high (more so at chest level than shoulder level), palm down, and racket face pointed to the ground. Note your power position. Racket at about hip level, racket face and palm up, and drooping tossing arm. Copy Roddick's power position. Or at the very least, I insist that you don't lay back the wrist until you've started the upward swing, which should be initiated by your legs, not done at the same time as your legs extend.
4) Alternatively to #3, you can start your racket arm in a proper power position (like Federer, Roddick, etc), toss up the ball, then go for your serve. And again, don't lay back your wrist before you explode upwards into the ball.

Once you mastered the basic motion, add slice. Remember how I asked you to move your toss closer in to allow for an easier time hitting up and across the back of the ball? Do a ton of that. You can still hit through the ball if you want, but also throw in times where you don't hit through the ball so the spin can add more action to the ball. Bottom line, your goal should be consistency, not power. After that should be placement. Once you mastered the spin serve and can eliminate faults, you can hit through them for a first serve.

After you've mastered the slice, move the toss even closer to your body (more to the left from the back perspective, roughly around over your head, give or take a few inches in whatever direction you prefer; I prefer to the right for the sake of my shoulder). Now, instead of hitting up and across the back, hit across the top of the back of the ball. It'd be like hitting 10 to 2 or 9 to 2 on the clock face. Also, aim forward when you do this. The result is good sideways action, decent pace, and good kick. As you get better and can swing faster (generate more energy through your service motion), it'll naturally get more pace.

Also, for the mental issue, ignore the concept of faulting. Think simply of your plan to win the point and execute. If you can't push it out of your mind, think of swinging as quickly as you can, but put all that action into spin. But the best advice I can give is to ignore the possibility of missing the serve, and focusing simply on what your plan is to win the point and what you need to do to execute (aim at the backhand with a ton of spin, etc).

 

[Chas Tennis]

Hi, I'm new here and might have literally watched every youtube video on serves. I'm a strong 4.0 player but the thing that is holding me back is my serve consistency (and my net game but that is another can of worms for another time).

I have gone through various grips, stances (pinpoint vs platform), tosses and such. Sometimes my serve rocks but inevitably I start double faulting and it gets in my head. I have even double faulted entire games away right after hitting every first serve in the previous. Links to a couple of my serves are below...if you have any critiques please let me know. Thank you in advance.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1KtMa542YTAbUZZZnhfeFNib28

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1KtMa542YTAZWFJRWFvVVkxQXc

Your serve is good enough so that high speed video would be needed for the faster parts.

Of three serves in your videos, two times your foot lands on the line and one time about a foot into the court. High level servers tend to land into the court a variable amount but not on the baseline. Inconsistency might be related to your toss consistency. Somersault is a forward bending into the court, compare yours to high level servers (they vary) or to your model server(s). Use side camera views. Also, players toss to where they want to impact the ball. Do you have a clear idea of that?

Investigate the - How far forward into the court? - issues. Toss, foot landing, impact, forward tilts of trunk & arm from Somersault, your ideas of where you want to impact the ball & why. Video your serves from the side - perpendicular to the ball's trajectory is good because ad and deuce sides look the same. The camera has to be moved for ad and deuce serves. Looking along the baseline is a little different. It is easier to find high level serve videos for comparisons. If viewing parallel to the baseline then compare your deuce court serves to deuce court high level serves and your ad court serves to high level ad court serves. There is considerable variation on how far forward high level players impact the ball and land.

Raonic moves forward more than most.

 

[dohng]

Wow thank you for all the replies and tips. I've read through all your comments thoroughly, wrote a lot of notes to study and incorporate each of them at my next practice.

I've always had this evolving serve issue since high school tennis which was almost 20 years ago! Not sure if it's a mental block these days or not but from the looks of it I have a lot to work on. I typically have compensated my service game by making sure my ground strokes and return game are strong and can win me points so I will typically choose to receive rather than serve if I win the toss/spin during my matches. I apologize for not giving any more information on my game but the reason I said strong 4.0 was because I go pretty deep into the tournaments I play in (twice a month) but inevitably get to a point in the last round where my serve is what fails me. From friends who watch, they always say I should have beat my opponent from every other aspect of my game besides my serve/net game and my opponents usually ask why I'm playing 4.0 rather than 4.5 with my ground strokes/return game.

I believe many of you are correct in that I put too much emphasis on my first serve and have skipped the 2nd serve practice. Going forward, I will be strictly doing 2nd serves for both my 1st and 2nd serve for awhile even during my matches to get adjusted to top spin and consistency. When I use to play 3.5 tennis, I did a dink serve to just get the ball into play and absolutely hated winning the points off of the opponents unforced error. I've told myself countless times I'd rather double fault than win the point off a super weak 2nd serve (stupid I know) but this has caused mental issues in that I put way too much focus on having my 2nd serve have a lot of pace and be a heavy ball.

Here are the written notes I am taking with me from your comments, please let me know if I interpreted them correctly.

• 2nd serve needs to be top spin or slice to grow consistency (as stated before I plan on hitting my 2nd serve strictly for a bit until I get it down)
• Work on footwork and my feet to point in same direction - if that doesn't work, switch to platform to get consistent stance
• Work on consistent toss - lower, more to the left, and a bit more into the court for 2nd serve
• Keep left arm up longer
• Work on my trophy position - get my arm in to correct position first
• Watched a few videos on Roddick's serve as suggested by xFullcourttenniSx and will work on my wrist issue to mimic his
• Work on leg drive to hit into ball rather than just jumping first
• Lastly, work on mental game. I believe this one will be the hardest to overcome but hopefully by working on a serve with more spin for both my 1st and 2nd serve it will grow my confidence level.

Thank you again for the help. My plan is to work on these key issues and follow up with you guys afterwards with more videos.

 

[Lance L]

My two cents.
I find your service motion choppy, not smooth. The result of that is that too much of your serve power comes from brute force, from working hard.
Our tennis racquets are amazing things, they provide a tremendous mechanical advantage and can impart a great deal of force to the ball. We don't have to work very hard to generate power on the ball. Was Indiana Jones grunting working real hard to work his whip? No, he wasn't, and we shouldn't either.
Our job is to hit the ball cleanly and smoothly time after time, and in order to do that our motion needs to be smooth and kind of effortless. If our upper body muscles are flexed and working hard, we can't get that kind of consistency.
I think you should work on making your serve motion more fluid and technically sound, let the racquet do the work.
The first thing that pops out at me, technically, is that your elbow stays too straight throughout. My first hit from the videos was that you looked like a cricket bowler.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we don't work hard on the tennis court. We do, but most of the hard work should come from getting to the ball and being in the correct place to hit well. The actual strokes should not normally be hard work.

 

[dohng]

My two cents.
I find your service motion choppy, not smooth. The result of that is that too much of your serve power comes from brute force, from working hard.
Our tennis racquets are amazing things, they provide a tremendous mechanical advantage and can impart a great deal of force to the ball. We don't have to work very hard to generate power on the ball. Was Indiana Jones grunting working real hard to work his whip? No, he wasn't, and we shouldn't either.
Our job is to hit the ball cleanly and smoothly time after time, and in order to do that our motion needs to be smooth and kind of effortless. If our upper body muscles are flexed and working hard, we can't get that kind of consistency.
I think you should work on making your serve motion more fluid and technically sound, let the racquet do the work.
The first thing that pops out at me, technically, is that your elbow stays too straight throughout. My first hit from the videos was that you looked like a cricket bowler.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we don't work hard on the tennis court. We do, but most of the hard work should come from getting to the ball and being in the correct place to hit well. The actual strokes should not normally be hard work.

Thank you and you are right. I have that exact same issue in my golf game. I swing too hard and it ends up being counter-productive whereas I swing easy and make good contact, the ball goes farther and in the direction I want it.

Will add that to my list of things to work on. Thanks.

 

[sureshs]

Hi, I'm new here and might have literally watched every youtube video on serves. I'm a strong 4.0 player but the thing that is holding me back is my serve consistency (and my net game but that is another can of worms for another time).

I have gone through various grips, stances (pinpoint vs platform), tosses and such. Sometimes my serve rocks but inevitably I start double faulting and it gets in my head. I have even double faulted entire games away right after hitting every first serve in the previous. Links to a couple of my serves are below...if you have any critiques please let me know. Thank you in advance.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1KtMa542YTAbUZZZnhfeFNib28

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1KtMa542YTAZWFJRWFvVVkxQXc

Second video second serve is a foot fault

 

[Nellie]

Personally, I would just focus on a couple of things for now and not go crazy with changes. You are getting decent spin on the ball in your videos. That leads me to suspect that your technique is not consistent and you are sometime pulling down and/or dropping your body/head. This is related to dropping the toss arm, but includes more things. You are not hitting a very 2nd hard serve, really focus on hitting up at the ball so you can get a lot spin.

When your serve starts missing, toss the ball higher, keep you left arm longer, keep your head up to look up at the ball longer, and really think of hitting up and through the ball. Your ball should be going way, way over the net (4 feet+). My goal is to never hit the net on a second serve. If you are hitting long, you are not brushing up at the ball enough.

 

[Digital Atheist]

You have a major pause at your trophy due to your excessively high ball toss, which makes it harder to time and might explain your inconsistent results. WildVolley said drop it by at least a foot - he's right, and given the time it's out of frame, I'd guestimate two feet might even be necessary.

Probably the reason you feel you need to swing so hard and end up muscling the ball, is due to your poor trophy position (as LeeD rightly pointed out, you need to get the arm at 90deg pointing straight up). To give you a visual, the following is not a good "power position":

What you're looking for is more like this:

Note the angle of the arm AND the racquet, including the face (it's much more closed than yours). Raonic is another good example:

I'll try the 90 degrees tonight when I go hit and report back

It's good you're open to feedback, but this isn't going to be easy to achieve and will take some work, so don't be discouraged if results don't occur overnight. You're going to need lots and lots of shadow swings as a beginning:

On the takeback, in order to stop your wrist from opening the racket face so early, keep the palm down and change your takeback. The girl in the following video has a similar takeback to yours, the first half is more relevant to your motion:

 

[dohng]

You have a major pause at your trophy due to your excessively high ball toss, which makes it harder to time and might explain your inconsistent results. WildVolley said drop it by at least a foot - he's right, and given the time it's out of frame, I'd guestimate two feet might even be necessary.

Probably the reason you feel you need to swing so hard and end up muscling the ball, is due to your poor trophy position (as LeeD rightly pointed out, you need to get the arm at 90deg pointing straight up). To give you a visual, the following is not a good "power position":

What you're looking for is more like this:

Note the angle of the arm AND the racquet, including the face (it's much more closed than yours). Raonic is another good example:

It's good you're open to feedback, but this isn't going to be easy to achieve and will take some work, so don't be discouraged if results don't occur overnight. You're going to need lots and lots of shadow swings as a beginning:

On the takeback, in order to stop your wrist from opening the racket face so early, keep the palm down and change your takeback. The girl in the following video has a similar takeback to yours, the first half is more relevant to your motion:

The video links you provided are great and can't believe how relevant it is to my serve. I practiced the 90 degree arm the other night but only took it as getting my elbow 90 degrees but did not pay any attention to how open and closed my racquet face was.

The "butt in" suggestion makes a lot of sense as well since I tend to have lower back pain after throwing my toss more over my head which causes me to throw more towards my right flattening out my serve. Really appreciate the thorough response and video suggestions.

 

[dohng]

Personally, I would just focus on a couple of things for now and not go crazy with changes. You are getting decent spin on the ball in your videos. That leads me to suspect that your technique is not consistent and you are sometime pulling down and/or dropping your body/head. This is related to dropping the toss arm, but includes more things. You are not hitting a very 2nd hard serve, really focus on hitting up at the ball so you can get a lot spin.

When your serve starts missing, toss the ball higher, keep you left arm longer, keep your head up to look up at the ball longer, and really think of hitting up and through the ball. Your ball should be going way, way over the net (4 feet+). My goal is to never hit the net on a second serve. If you are hitting long, you are not brushing up at the ball enough.

Thank you, yes I agree that too much change is sometimes counterproductive. I will focus on my left arm and my trophy position for now and keep logging changes/results as it goes.

 

[mbm0912]

You lift bro?

 

[dohng]

You lift bro?

Strictly curls in the squat rack 5 days a week.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Here are the written notes I am taking with me from your comments, please let me know if I interpreted them correctly.

• 2nd serve needs to be top spin or slice to grow consistency (as stated before I plan on hitting my 2nd serve strictly for a bit until I get it down)
• Work on footwork and my feet to point in same direction - if that doesn't work, switch to platform to get consistent stance
• Work on consistent toss - lower, more to the left, and a bit more into the court for 2nd serve
• Keep left arm up longer
• Work on my trophy position - get my arm in to correct position first
• Watched a few videos on Roddick's serve as suggested by xFullcourttenniSx and will work on my wrist issue to mimic his
• Work on leg drive to hit into ball rather than just jumping first
• Lastly, work on mental game. I believe this one will be the hardest to overcome but hopefully by working on a serve with more spin for both my 1st and 2nd serve it will grow my confidence level.

Thank you again for the help. My plan is to work on these key issues and follow up with you guys afterwards with more videos.

1) Yes. Anything to get the ball in consistently with a confident swing (confident, not excessive).
2) Don't need to point in the same direction, just not back. Anything BUT back. Straight to the side or any degree between straight to the side and 45 degree angle to the court. That's a general guideline. Again, bottom line is anything but backwards.
3) Doesn't have to be lower. All that really matters is getting the point of contact correct. Don't know where your serve is now with relation to depth into the court. Over the baseline or a little bit inside is good.
4) Yes. In baseball (according to what one pro? put on Youtube), the nondominant elbow points to the target, and their body follows through into the arm in that direction as they throw. Think of it being the same in a serve. Your body goes up towards your left arm, then when your shoulders do the cartwheel, your left shoulder goes down and the arm follows. Another way of looking at it is you have your arm up, pulling the left shoulder up, and as you go up, your right shoulder climbs over the left one. Big for swinging up into the ball, which adds more upward component to your side spin (all serves are actually just slice serves), and makes it less likely for you to miss the ball into the net.
5) Yeah. Whoever you wish to emulate, just make sure they're a good clutch server with a good second serve (which removes Murray and Venus). Isner, Querrey, Roddick. All good. Something more traditional would be Federer. The problem I have with you and a more traditional trophy pose is you might drop your racket early. If you have your racket in front of your chest like Isner, Querrey, and Roddick do, you're less likely to drop the head early, and you're more likely to keep the palm down. But if you can manage to not drop the racket early and keep the palm down until you go into your upward swing, any trophy position is fine to emulate or create.
6) Yeah, again, it's mostly about keeping palm down or neutral. If you open early it doesn't really whip into contact as well.
7) Yes. You can also think of quickly reaching up to the ball. The legs need to lead the motion. Don't think of them as 2 separate parts.
8) Yes, yes, yes. Think of it this way, what are the 2 most critical things to winning service games? 1) First serve percentages. 2) Second serve winning percentages. Usually, first serve winning percentages will be well above 50%. You start off with an aggressive shot to dictate the point and can easily continue your advantage. On second serves though, you usually aim to start out neutral, so you have to work for the point. Really good servers with strong second serves can start the point at an advantage, but there are some returners that will always make second serves a disadvantage for you. If you grow your service game around being able to generically outplay people on 2nd serve points, you literally have nothing to worry about when you actually do get a first serve, because you know if you have to hit a second serve, you know you'll win well over 50% of the points anyway, because you've played for months with nothing but a second serve. Then when you add in an aggressive first serve, you have a first serve that gets you a bunch of free points (either outright or by setting up an essentially free point), or you play with your second serve knowing you can outplay your opponent. The result is this confidence in service games where you know you will keep. Even in the worst serving days, if the serve goes in, you're winning more than you lose. This means you can go for more on the return because you know you have your service game to fall back on. And when the opponent realizes he's struggling to hold and you're holding cleanly (even if you have to go through some grinding rallies), he'll feel more pressure to keep. He might go for a bit more on first serves to sneak a few more free points. If it works, good for him, he can't do it all day. The instant it fails, his first serve percentage drops like a rock and you feast on his second serve. From there, the game is yours, you go through an easy keep, then the pressure is back on your opponent to hold just to catch up. You have no obligation to do anything but make him work and sweat for his games. Think of Nadal and Federer in their primes. Imagine how disgusting it was to be broken by them, because you knew you weren't breaking back. Their first serves put you on defense and their baseline games were so good that them having to hit a second serve is nothing but false hope.

The best servers aren't the one's with the best serves. They're the ones with the games to back up their serves. As great returners like Federer, Djokovic, Agassi, and Murray have proven, getting the return in is the easy part. The hard part is taking that and turning the point in your favor, which Agassi and Djokovic are really good at doing off of the return alone. And even with a returner as great as Agassi, it was tough to deal with Sampras because even if you got his serve back hard and low, Sampras was ready to hurt you with the next shot.

 

[Curiosity]

"Everybody has an opinion..."

You have the parts of a very good serve. However, a few things strike me as negatives holding you back:

You keep a lot of flexed tension in your back and shoulder muscles, even using them to power the hit through contact. This should change. You want the muscles used for rotation and initial lift to go loose once they've done their job. The extensors take over. Everything goes loose up to the final instant of contact with one exception:

The pronators: It seems to me you pronate too early before contact in what I assume is your first serve. The entire serve motion should be set, the angle your racquet path crosses the ball, etc. Keep the knife edge going up at the ball until you absolutely must pronate. At the last instant pronate that last little bit for aim to correctly align the string-bed relative to the swing path....to hit the target you want.

Work to eliminate the big leftward lean of your back as you approach contact. It seems to be both part of the excess tension and also an unpredictable element as to degree and timing. Instead, work to attain greater shoulder pivot (hitting should goes up, etc.) and less total UB rotation. To the extent your UB goes with it when your non-hitting shoulder tilts down...you want that tilt to be more forward, less leftward. Just one opinion. Have fun.

 

[Chas Tennis]

.....................................
The pronators: It seems to me you pronate too early before contact in what I assume is your first serve. The entire serve motion should be set, the angle your racquet path crosses the ball, etc. Keep the knife edge going up at the ball until you absolutely must pronate. At the last instant pronate that last little bit for aim to correctly align the string-bed relative to the swing path....to hit the target you want.
..................................................

I don't see "At the last instant..." in these Toly composite pictures. Racket 'edge on' to 'face on' at impact looks more gradual, most is produced by ISR.

These pictures were selected from Fuzzy Yellow Balls overhead videos of Frank Salazar serves. Overhead videos of serves are very rare.

Here are some Toly composite pictures of rare Fuzzy Yellow Balls videos of Frank Salazar serves. I can't vouch for how typical they are of the high level ATP techniques being used.

The racket is rotating clockwise from ISR, upper arm rotation at the shoulder. The racket is also swung forward and is rising by wrist joint motions and maybe some final elbow extension. More than one axis for the swings.

Note -
1) the paths of the hand and racket relative to the baseline.
2) the positions of impacts relative to the head and hand.
3) the angles of the shoulder girdle and chest relative to the baseline. The shoulder girdle and chest of the kick serve face more to the right. (Is the instruction to 'face to the side for the kick serve' true?)
4) the apparent length of the racket from the hand to the ball at impact. What does that length indicate when viewed from above? How does that length for the kick serve compare?

Unfortunately, the ball trajectories were not covered in the videos.

How do you measure the "lack of ISR into the court on the kick serves"? By the length over which the ISR has occurred, an obvious observation? Or, by the racket head speed, have to measure and consider 2D video of 3D space. Or other?

You would need some well thought camera work to see the difference in 'amount' of ISR. But the strings have to rise for the kick serve and the strings are near as high as they go for the slice and flat serves - that gives the kick serve signature. It is very clear in high speed video with small motion blur over a period of about 8 milliseconds at 240 fps. It is impossible to see impact followed by the racket rise with 30 fps video that takes only one frame every 33 milliseconds.

 

[Doc Hollidae]

Hi, I'm new here and might have literally watched every youtube video on serves. I'm a strong 4.0 player but the thing that is holding me back is my serve consistency (and my net game but that is another can of worms for another time).

I have gone through various grips, stances (pinpoint vs platform), tosses and such. Sometimes my serve rocks but inevitably I start double faulting and it gets in my head. I have even double faulted entire games away right after hitting every first serve in the previous. Links to a couple of my serves are below...if you have any critiques please let me know. Thank you in advance.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1KtMa542YTAbUZZZnhfeFNib28

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1KtMa542YTAZWFJRWFvVVkxQXc

You need to learn how to hit a kicker.

 

[Curiosity]

I don't see "At the last instant..." in these Toly composite pictures. Racket 'edge on' to 'face on' at impact looks more gradual, most is produced by ISR.

These pictures were selected from Fuzzy Yellow Balls overhead videos of Frank Salazar serves. Overhead videos of serves are very rare.

Chas, it's all relative, isn't it? In relation to what he's doing now it appears to me (with imperfect video) that he should above all fix the "lean to the left" bit, and that he should more fully extend and unwind more of the ulnar deviation before applying the ISR for power and final (for aim) pronation. I believe he'd reach a more consistent contact angle and get more power from the unwind into contact...if he held it a bit more.

And what do you think of the tight back, lean to the left, and ISR well before contact?

As for Salazar's early unwinding, I wouldn't recommend it to someone with consistency problems. I note that Salazar rotates the racquet head much earlier than others, e.g. Sampras. I'm curious as to what happened to Salazar in 1976. He was a star junior (#1 on some ranking), #1 at Clemson....but came on the tour in 1975 at 373, peaked within a year at 326, and then disappeared. Did his serve let him down, or did he suffer a major injury/illness?

 

[Chas Tennis]

I just copy cat the strong servers of the ATP as models with high speed video for information. I have a hard time figuring out what they are doing and only have made some progress on a few of the more important things. Figuring out one of a kind techniques for lower level players is very tough and there is no good information to rely on.

I don't think that a high speed video will be found to support using ISR, approaching the ball edge on and going face on just in time for impact.

Bugsey Moran. #2 is edge on, #3 is after some ISR rotation. #5 - last ball position before impact.

This is a good camera angle for showing the racket path and head rotation.

Where is Toly when you need him?

Frank Salazar's history is interesting.

 

[Chas Tennis]

..............................
And what do you think of the tight back, lean to the left, and ISR well before contact?
......................................................

For ISR, one of the bones in his elbow showed a white spot so that you could see some indication of ISR for two frames before impact. I don't think the second frame reached impact and the white spot could be seen to have rotated, that's ISR. I thought the angle rotation before impact might have been small guessing 40 d. instead of 70 d. ? I'm not even sure that 70d applies to the high level server..........

Then I decided, why guess what is happening during the fastest part of the serve using 30 fps? He probably is doing ISR and simply needs high speed video.

I think he is going up too much and not forward enough and should take a video from the side next.

I'll look at the tight back and left tilt.

 

[shindemac]

Wow thank you for all the replies and tips. I've read through all your comments thoroughly, wrote a lot of notes to study and incorporate each of them at my next practice.

I've always had this evolving serve issue since high school tennis which was almost 20 years ago! Not sure if it's a mental block these days or not but from the looks of it I have a lot to work on. I typically have compensated my service game by making sure my ground strokes and return game are strong and can win me points so I will typically choose to receive rather than serve if I win the toss/spin during my matches. I apologize for not giving any more information on my game but the reason I said strong 4.0 was because I go pretty deep into the tournaments I play in (twice a month) but inevitably get to a point in the last round where my serve is what fails me. From friends who watch, they always say I should have beat my opponent from every other aspect of my game besides my serve/net game and my opponents usually ask why I'm playing 4.0 rather than 4.5 with my ground strokes/return game.

I believe many of you are correct in that I put too much emphasis on my first serve and have skipped the 2nd serve practice. Going forward, I will be strictly doing 2nd serves for both my 1st and 2nd serve for awhile even during my matches to get adjusted to top spin and consistency. When I use to play 3.5 tennis, I did a dink serve to just get the ball into play and absolutely hated winning the points off of the opponents unforced error. I've told myself countless times I'd rather double fault than win the point off a super weak 2nd serve (stupid I know) but this has caused mental issues in that I put way too much focus on having my 2nd serve have a lot of pace and be a heavy ball.

Here are the written notes I am taking with me from your comments, please let me know if I interpreted them correctly.

• 2nd serve needs to be top spin or slice to grow consistency (as stated before I plan on hitting my 2nd serve strictly for a bit until I get it down)
• Work on footwork and my feet to point in same direction - if that doesn't work, switch to platform to get consistent stance
• Work on consistent toss - lower, more to the left, and a bit more into the court for 2nd serve
• Keep left arm up longer
• Work on my trophy position - get my arm in to correct position first
• Watched a few videos on Roddick's serve as suggested by xFullcourttenniSx and will work on my wrist issue to mimic his
• Work on leg drive to hit into ball rather than just jumping first
• Lastly, work on mental game. I believe this one will be the hardest to overcome but hopefully by working on a serve with more spin for both my 1st and 2nd serve it will grow my confidence level.

Thank you again for the help. My plan is to work on these key issues and follow up with you guys afterwards with more videos.

I would throw that list out and focus solely on a topspin serve. Here's what would be on my paper:

Goal: Develop a consistent second serve.

To do:
0. Practice toss.
1. Practice topspin serve.
2. Fix foot fault.

Breakdown of 1.
1. Get on knees.
2. Start at trophy or backscratch.
3. Optional, choke up on handle.
4. Toss ball over head.
5. Swing up!

I think you are underestimating how much time it will take to accomplish this task (develop topspin serve). Maybe it takes you a day like some, but most have said it takes at least a few good months of practice.

I also do not recommend to practice more than one serve type. Even though you know it's diff'rent serves, I find that my brain confuses the two (or more) and so everything takes a lot longer. You prolly need to hit 10,000 serves before the brain has figured out, Oh!, this is a topspin serve; This is a topslice; This is a slice.

 

[Chas Tennis]

..............................
And what do you think of the tight back, lean to the left, and ISR well before contact?
.......................................................

Now I see what you mean with the "tight back" and "lean to the left".

This serve is the only one in the OP where his foot lands in the court.

The OP hardly tilts his shoulder girdle relative to his spine. That might also cause his left body tilt.

There is a frame counter in the video.
Frame 2 - Blue line shows spine. Yellow line shows line between his shoulders.
Frame 3 - Green circle shows white spot indicating bone location at the elbow. This spot indicates ISR motion.
Frame 4 - Near impact. Blue line shows spine. Yellow line shows line between his shoulders. White spot at elbow has moved indicating ISR. Did it move enough before impact?
Frame 5 - After impact. It looks as if the ISR continued. My impression is that maybe too much ISR occurs too close to impact and not enough earlier = late. ? Needs high speed video.

Video showing only the 4 frames above, each displayed for 4 seconds. Click "Vimeo" and display full screen size.

Video of serve with 4 second pause on each key frames.

For stop-action single-frame on Vimeo hold down SHIFT KEY & use ARROW KEYS.

The OP should compare his shoulder tilt through out the service motion to those of high level servers. High speed video is necessary to see the timing of ISR.

 

[r2473]

You have a major pause at your trophy

This is one of you problems, and a pretty big one. You "dip into a knee bend". This video explains it well:

 

[mbm0912]

This is one of you problems, and a pretty big one. You "dip into a knee bend". This video explains it well:

You'll know you are doing it correctly when you hear the sounding of the drums.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This is one of you problems, and a pretty big one. You "dip into a knee bend". This video explains it well:

Sonic Serve is a great video on the serve, especially insightful for some of the complex body motions. The full Sonic Serve video is maybe 20 minutes long.

However, the video was made about 2000 and does not discuss internal shoulder rotation. The research on ISR was first published about 1995. I believe that recognition of the significance of the research was still spreading around 2000.

 

[Curiosity]

Now I see what you mean with the "tight back" and "lean to the left".

This serve is the only one in the OP where his foot lands in the court.

The OP hardly tilts his shoulder girdle relative to his spine. That might also cause his left body tilt.

There is a frame counter in the video.
Frame 2 - Blue line shows spine. Yellow line shows line between his shoulders.
Frame 3 - Green circle shows white spot indicating bone location at the elbow. This spot indicates ISR motion.
Frame 4 - Near impact. Blue line shows spine. Yellow line shows line between his shoulders. White spot at elbow has moved indicating ISR. Did it move enough before impact?
Frame 5 - After impact. It looks as if the ISR continued. My impression is that maybe too much ISR occurs too close to impact and not enough earlier = late. ? Needs high speed video.

Video showing only the 4 frames above, each displayed for 4 seconds. Click "Vimeo" and display full screen size.

Video of serve with 4 second pause on each key frames.

For stop-action single-frame on Vimeo hold down SHIFT KEY & use ARROW KEYS.

The OP should compare his shoulder tilt through out the service motion to those of high level servers. High speed video is necessary to see the timing of ISR.

Chas, thanks for taking a good close look. Naturally some high-speed video would help! I suppose my surprise is how far left, rather than into the court, his shoulders/torso lean into contact. That yields a difficult-to-decipher power application. Perhaps we'll get some HSV eventually?

 

[r2473]

Sonic Serve is a great video on the serve, especially insightful for some of the complex body motions. The full Sonic Serve video is maybe 20 minutes long.

However, the video was made about 2000 and does not discuss internal shoulder rotation. The research on ISR was first published about 1995. I believe that recognition of the significance of the research was still spreading around 2000.

I still refer to my Sonic Serve DVD from time to time. If I'm "going off the rails" on my serve, I always find the reason why in this video. It's amazing how sloppy you can get over time. Forgetting things and picking up bad habits.

I can't say for sure, but it seems to me that, if you have "Sonic Serve" mechanics, you will automatically have ISR. I always think of ISR as an "effect" of proper mechanics, not the cause of proper mechanics. Correct me if I'm wrong Chas. That's just my belief.

And thanks for the tip last year on the Casio EXILIM EX-FH100 camera. I use all the time to look at tennis, golf, and some exercise stuff I do. The frame-by-frame really lets you see mechanical flaws.

 

[GuyClinch]

Serve not bad - got some pop..
So with that in mind..two drills.


1) start hitting numerous servers out of a trophy position type of 'start' You never get that nice 90 degree arm bend (It's a throwing motion remember..).

aka nadal/todd martin drill.

2) As suggested hit a ton of second serves.. A good drill for this is..

Normally I would suggest slice first but I think your serve is good enough to learn a kicker. It's kinda unheard of to even try playing at 4.0 with no spin serve..

Lots more you could do - like better use of legs and so on.. But you want real 'action' steps that you can do to improve your serve. I personally don't think just thinking about proper technique does a lot. You need to make obvious exaggerated changes to really improve technique imho. You also need practice outside of match play - which probably is the #1 reason people don't really improve their serve.

 

[Curious]

This is the solution to your main problem:

 

[nabrug]

Hi, I'm new here and might have literally watched every youtube video on serves. I'm a strong 4.0 player but the thing that is holding me back is my serve consistency (and my net game but that is another can of worms for another time).

I have gone through various grips, stances (pinpoint vs platform), tosses and such. Sometimes my serve rocks but inevitably I start double faulting and it gets in my head. I have even double faulted entire games away right after hitting every first serve in the previous. Links to a couple of my serves are below...if you have any critiques please let me know. Thank you in advance.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1KtMa542YTAbUZZZnhfeFNib28

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1KtMa542YTAZWFJRWFvVVkxQXc

Improving the service is among other things about
1. a very creative process; in which you have to be very open and find the answer to the question if your service meets up with the required standards of your level.
In this stage your service need not to go in, although the shape of the ball trajectory must comply to a few demands.

Consistency in the service is about
1. a non creative, very dumb process; in which you totally have to leave the creative process. Elite players don't re-invent their services every time they start a new service. No, they just repeat the, approved service, as dumb as possible.

So these phases need to be trained separately. If at one point the service needs improvement you have to open up the service again but you also have to close it again.

So the bottom line is that consistency is not about technical improvement. And so all the instruction in here is well meant but it will bring you further from consistency.

 

[Chas Tennis]

.............................

I can't say for sure, but it seems to me that, if you have "Sonic Serve" mechanics, you will automatically have ISR. I always think of ISR as an "effect" of proper mechanics, not the cause of proper mechanics. Correct me if I'm wrong Chas. That's just my belief.

And thanks for the tip last year on the Casio EXILIM EX-FH100 camera. I use all the time to look at tennis, golf, and some exercise stuff I do. The frame-by-frame really lets you see mechanical flaws.

My approach is that you collect reliable information and see where it leads.

Tennis complicates things over, for example, studying how animals run, because we can use our own athletic thoughts and those of others as they describe them.

The body has 600 muscles with separate nerve control of very large numbers of individual muscle cells in each of those 600 muscles. For movement, the body somehow controls all those muscle cells. ?? Obviously, this many nerve signals can't be sent to the muscle cells consciously.

The sarcomere is the most basic structure of muscle in the body. It can supply forces in the direction of sarcomere shortening. Some of the sarcomere's modes of operation are:
1) maximum force,
2) partial force,
3) force from Actin and Myosin,
4) force from Titin.
5) others

These forces cannot be seen in high speed videos or 3D motion capture systems. What can be measured hardly scratches the surface.

Words like "naturally", "automatically", "relaxed", etc seem to recognize and acknowledge that something is going with body movement but these words don't provide additional information.

Examples of my beliefs:
My belief is that in tennis usage 'completely relaxed' means that no #3) force from Actin & Myosin is being used. As a practical result, maybe the ISR muscles should be 'completely relaxed' for their Titin to be stretched during the service motion.

When the stretch shorten cycle is being used, #4) force from Titin is involved. As a practical result, Titin is supplying some forces for the racket head acceleration to the ball (and the external shoulder rotation (ESR) muscles are probably 'completely relaxed').

I believe that when players try to perform a stroke by simply going to 'checkpoints' they are using #3) force from Actin & Myosin. But it is necessary to use #4) Titin to perform the stroke. So going to checkpoints does not work.

I can't confirm these beliefs because there is no way to measure what is happening in a sarcomere during a tennis stroke.

But hypotheses like these seem reasonable and tell us some clear things.

I find that these details might be very useful and easy to try. (Use the stretch shorten cycle, #3) force from Titin, in your tennis strokes....)

 

[r2473]

My approach is that you collect reliable information and see where it leads.....

You make a good point, we all learn in different ways. The types of information you use ("force from Actin & Myosin") are not useful to me in improving my serve. Not because they aren't right/true, but because I can't process this information into serve improvement.

I actually learn pretty well from the old "Sybervision" approach (and I actually have the 30 year old Stan Smith VHS tape and find it useful).

Words like "naturally", "automatically", "relaxed", etc seem to recognize and acknowledge that something is going with body movement but these words don't provide additional information.

For me, understanding why being "relaxed" helps me execute swings/shots isn't important. I just know from experience / positive feedback that it works.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Ask yourself whether the most basic characteristics - of the only thing that makes muscles move, the sarcomere - might possibly be important for a tennis stroke?

Are the ingredients of a soup important?

Do you think that Actin & Myosin forces have the same force characteristics as Titin forces?

Do you think that 1000 men pulling on a rope have the same force characteristics as a boy shooting a Whamo sling shot?

What force characteristic is different?

Maybe in basic biomechanics they have learned to deal with issues like these?

 

[mbm0912]

I still refer to my Sonic Serve DVD from time to time. If I'm "going off the rails" on my serve, I always find the reason why in this video. It's amazing how sloppy you can get over time. Forgetting things and picking up bad habits.

I can't say for sure, but it seems to me that, if you have "Sonic Serve" mechanics, you will automatically have ISR. I always think of ISR as an "effect" of proper mechanics, not the cause of proper mechanics. Correct me if I'm wrong Chas. That's just my belief.

And thanks for the tip last year on the Casio EXILIM EX-FH100 camera. I use all the time to look at tennis, golf, and some exercise stuff I do. The frame-by-frame really lets you see mechanical flaws.

Yes. This.

 

[dohng]

Hey guys, wanted to provide a quick update while I have a minute. I'll post some more videos later when I get home. To all the guys that have been analyzing and providing help it is definitely very appreciated and hopefully I can implement much of what ya'll have said.

I had a couple of service practice sessions and a match with a 4.5 player the last couple of days. I unfortunately lost the match 5 and 4 but it wasn't due to my serve thankfully.

So on to my serve, I tried to work on my pinpoint footwork, left shoulder staying up, lower toss and more forward and to the left, and finally my trophy position. Safe to say it was way too much to work on at one time. I shanked the ball more than anything because I was concentrating on so many different things. So as another user, Nellie, suggested, I started to work on just 2 things. My trophy position and keeping my left arm up longer and trying to hit over it.

Results were varied but from the 2 practice sessions so far, I have seen a more consistent serve. Footwork still needs work and so does my trophy position but keeping my racquet face more closed and concentrating on the 90 degree elbow seemed to be the biggest difference maker so far.

This is the solution to your main problem:

This video is really helpful so thank you for posting it "Curious" and that is absolutely what I'm doing. I can't wait to go out and work on throwing my right elbow forward and seeing if that will help.

In regards to my ISR and body tilt, I will be working on that next after watching the sonic serve in more depth. Thanks again I will post videos later on but after watching them on my phone I don't see much difference in form but results have been good so far.

 

[TupeloDanger]

I always think of ISR as an "effect" of proper mechanics, not the cause of proper mechanics.

This is 100% correct, and always has been. There's nothing new or recent about ISR, it just happens that sometime in the last 25 years or so, a bunch of biomechanics ninnies started going, "But guuuuuuuyyyys...what you're calling pronaaaaation isn't really pronaaaaation..."

Even in the 70's we were schooled to stop worrying about pronating, because once we were serving right, pronation happened on its own. It's an effect, not a cause. And once you internalize proper throwing (and thus serving) mechanics, this becomes self evident. That Jill and Joey PhD started calling it ISR instead has changed nothing.