Serve critique (video included)

[ajjlaaks]

Hi all.

I was practicing my serve today and decided to make a little video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QV1tlgtc_8

My serve has always been the weakest part of my game. I've had some shoulder trouble which has prevented me from practicing it properly. During the winter i've been working on my shoulder support muscles, which I'm hoping will help with that. (This was the first time I got to practice my serve in a while so please, be gentle )

What I can gather from the video, my wind up and trophy pose seem pretty solid, but once I get to the actual swing, it's kind of all over the place. Any tips on that? Also my toss seems way too inconsistent so that'll require some work as well.

Any tips and/or comments are much appreciated.

 

[LeeD]

Nice and smooth, easy and little energy.
Maybe try for more conti or conti with ebh flavor, as opposed to your current conti towards eforehand flavor... to get more snap into the serve thru pronation.
Good setup, as you said, and slow swing....but you're recovering from shoulder problems, so prolly can't swing full speed.

 

[UCSF2012]

There are lots of minor things to fix, but the biggest thing to fix first is the swing path. As you're swinging your racket, you're not getting full extension and you're swinging to your side a bit. So swing up in a full arch/circle. After that, it's some minor tweaks to your motion.

If you paused your video while you're at the peak of the motion, you'll see that you lean your upper body extremely to your left (40 degrees or so), while you swing your arm to your side. What's supposed to happen is you leave 1) your body relatively straight (maybe 5-10 degrees angulation at most) while you swing your arms 2) upwards and 3) at full stretch.

Worry about everything else later. (trophy pose, weight distribution, etc.)

 

[ajjlaaks]

Nice and smooth, easy and little energy.
Maybe try for more conti or conti with ebh flavor, as opposed to your current conti towards eforehand flavor... to get more snap into the serve thru pronation.
Good setup, as you said, and slow swing....but you're recovering from shoulder problems, so prolly can't swing full speed.

Thanks, I've actually been experimenting with some different grips and going more towards ebh does seem like it has more potential, although it's more difficult. But i guess with time and practice it'll work out.

There are lots of minor things to fix, but the biggest thing to fix first is the swing path. As you're swinging your racket, you're not getting full extension and you're swinging to your side a bit. So swing up in a full arch/circle. After that, it's some minor tweaks to your motion.

If you paused your video while you're at the peak of the motion, you'll see that you lean your upper body extremely to your left (40 degrees or so), while you swing your arm to your side. What's supposed to happen is you leave 1) your body relatively straight (maybe 5-10 degrees angulation at most) while you swing your arms 2) upwards and 3) at full stretch.

Worry about everything else later. (trophy pose, weight distribution, etc.)

Interesting, swinging a bit to the side is actually deliberate. I've watched a lot of pro serves on youtube and most if not all of them make contact with their arm more or less to the side and their upper body at an angle. But youre right, the angle in my body seems way too extreme compared to the pros. This also has to do with the shoulder problems I mentioned earlier. If I try to stretch my arm out and up too far in the serve I feel like my shoulder is going to pop out of place. I guess i just have to find the optimal swingpath where i can get the most out of my serve with the shoulder that I have.

You also mentioned some other minor things? I am interested to hear what they might be so that I can work on them as well.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[heretoserve]

For more power keep your elbow higher. It drops and travels up as body uncoils horizontally, this breaks the kenetic chain. Tilt your shoulders upwards to get any upward trajectory. Don't drop the elbow then go straight up with the elbow. Also, your almost true palm down. Just try to keep that curl in the wrist a little bit longer, really feel like you gonna hit it with the wrong side of the racquet, then let the racquet pronate out on it's own. Here is a decent service motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zM5yRBjq1c

 

[Nellie]

To my eye, you are rotating around an axis (going through your body) and not hitting up and through the ball. In other words, you are not driving the hips through the serve zone. Note, for example, that your left foot doesn't move during the serve, letting you know that you hit with almost all arm and no weight shift. Personally, I (as a righty) like to land with my left leg forward (instead of kicking out with the right leg) so I feel like my hips are pushing through the serve area.

I understand what you mean by hitting a slice serve to protect your shoulder - you can get more zip by toss higher and more forward (1ft) and using your hips to move up and out to achieve a similar contact position (thereby protecting your shoulder) but with more weight behind the impact.

In addition, you should try get more extension up, but continue to protect you shoulder by moving your head to the left (imagine you make a Y with your arms, now bend at the back to keep the separation between head and serving arm, while achieving full vertical extension with your right arm.)

Also, keep your left arm up long, again to encourage your body to move up and through the ball instead of falling to the side

 

[charliefedererer]

Interesting, swinging a bit to the side is actually deliberate. I've watched a lot of pro serves on youtube and most if not all of them make contact with their arm more or less to the side and their upper body at an angle. But youre right, the angle in my body seems way too extreme compared to the pros. This also has to do with the shoulder problems I mentioned earlier. If I try to stretch my arm out and up too far in the serve I feel like my shoulder is going to pop out of place. I guess i just have to find the optimal swingpath where i can get the most out of my serve with the shoulder that I have.

You seem to be echoing what Jim McLennan is saying in this video:
Preventing Rotator Cuff Injury http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s&feature=related

Any chance of submitting a side view to analyze your toss, weight transfer and pronation better?

By the way, pretty good serve already!

 

[LeeD]

Basically, we're saying your shoulder is keeping you from swinging out fully, and you seem to be very aware of your shoulder, swinging easy and stunted to protect if from further injury.
You are smart. Your shoulder will heal with time. Don't hurt it showing off to a bunch of internet lurkers.

 

[zapvor]

Hi all.

I was practicing my serve today and decided to make a little video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QV1tlgtc_8

My serve has always been the weakest part of my game. I've had some shoulder trouble which has prevented me from practicing it properly. During the winter i've been working on my shoulder support muscles, which I'm hoping will help with that. (This was the first time I got to practice my serve in a while so please, be gentle )

What I can gather from the video, my wind up and trophy pose seem pretty solid, but once I get to the actual swing, it's kind of all over the place. Any tips on that? Also my toss seems way too inconsistent so that'll require some work as well.

Any tips and/or comments are much appreciated.

not bad. is that grass courts???

 

[UCSF2012]

Thanks, I've actually been experimenting with some different grips and going more towards ebh does seem like it has more potential, although it's more difficult. But i guess with time and practice it'll work out.



Interesting, swinging a bit to the side is actually deliberate. I've watched a lot of pro serves on youtube and most if not all of them make contact with their arm more or less to the side and their upper body at an angle. But youre right, the angle in my body seems way too extreme compared to the pros. This also has to do with the shoulder problems I mentioned earlier. If I try to stretch my arm out and up too far in the serve I feel like my shoulder is going to pop out of place. I guess i just have to find the optimal swingpath where i can get the most out of my serve with the shoulder that I have.

You also mentioned some other minor things? I am interested to hear what they might be so that I can work on them as well.

Thanks for the comments.

Let your shoulder heal first, and do rotator cuff exercise to strengthen it.

You should not be swinging way to your side on the serve. The musculature of the human isn't oriented to swing to the side for a serve. Partly because you can't use your back and abs muscles in the serve. You lose major power, at the very least. It's like doing a forehand for a serve.

 

[Djokovicfan4life]

not bad. is that grass courts???

Uh, that looks like a hard court to me. Not even close to the color of grass.

 

[zapvor]

hmm...so i am blind

 

[SuperDuy]

looks like clay to me , listen to the shuffle of feet

 

[ajjlaaks]

To my eye, you are rotating around an axis (going through your body) and not hitting up and through the ball. In other words, you are not driving the hips through the serve zone. Note, for example, that your left foot doesn't move during the serve, letting you know that you hit with almost all arm and no weight shift. Personally, I (as a righty) like to land with my left leg forward (instead of kicking out with the right leg) so I feel like my hips are pushing through the serve area.

I understand what you mean by hitting a slice serve to protect your shoulder - you can get more zip by toss higher and more forward (1ft) and using your hips to move up and out to achieve a similar contact position (thereby protecting your shoulder) but with more weight behind the impact.

In addition, you should try get more extension up, but continue to protect you shoulder by moving your head to the left (imagine you make a Y with your arms, now bend at the back to keep the separation between head and serving arm, while achieving full vertical extension with your right arm.)

Also, keep your left arm up long, again to encourage your body to move up and through the ball instead of falling to the side

Great post! What you described is exactly what I'm trying to achieve: since I don't have the best shoulder in the world (which is a shame since i used to be a pretty good thrower before I injured it) im going to do the best i can to get power from other elements of the serve. Pronation, legs, hips, core muscles etc. Shoulder is just one part of the kinetic chain and i think if I can max out the other elements i think i can develop a pretty good serve and prevent my arm from falling off

And thanks for the tip, I'm definetly going to work on my weight transfer as well.

You seem to be echoing what Jim McLennan is saying in this video:
Preventing Rotator Cuff Injury http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s&feature=related

Any chance of submitting a side view to analyze your toss, weight transfer and pronation better?

By the way, pretty good serve already!

Thanks for the link. Jim does a good job of explaining what I've noticed from experience: the higher my arm is, the weaker my shoulder feels (although I didn't know the reason before so thanks again).

I don't have a side view video at the moment but I could make one the next time I'm out practicing.

Basically, we're saying your shoulder is keeping you from swinging out fully, and you seem to be very aware of your shoulder, swinging easy and stunted to protect if from further injury.
You are smart. Your shoulder will heal with time. Don't hurt it showing off to a bunch of internet lurkers.

Yeah that's exactly my point. My first objective is to develop a service motion that I can execute without any pain or other symptoms. After that come consistency, power, spin and whatever else a good serve consists of.

Let your shoulder heal first, and do rotator cuff exercise to strengthen it.

You should not be swinging way to your side on the serve. The musculature of the human isn't oriented to swing to the side for a serve. Partly because you can't use your back and abs muscles in the serve. You lose major power, at the very least. It's like doing a forehand for a serve.

I doubt my shoulder is ever going to heal completely. Check out the link from charliefederer and you'll understande what I meant by "swinging to the side".


And the court is a kind of synthetic grass. Not sure if there is a proper name for it. It's actually not a very good court as you can probably see from the ridiculously low bounces in my video. It's a public court so the low quality is understandable. But it's nearby and best of all it's free so it's great for serve practice and occasional hitting.

 

[charliefedererer]

Thanks for the link. Jim does a good job of explaining what I've noticed from experience: the higher my arm is, the weaker my shoulder feels (although I didn't know the reason before so thanks again).

It sounds like you have been under medical care and doing your shoulder exercises.

There just isn't a lot of extra room in the area of your shoulder, and as the arm is increasingly elevated, the head of the humerus (upper arm bone) swings in and occupies even more space, causing an impingement:

http://www.augustaortho.com/images/shoulder2D.jpg

The problem with serving is well summarized here:
"Rotator Cuff and Shoulder Blade Stabilization

In this article we want to focus on the shoulder and muscles that stabilize that joint. When you talk about tennis and the shoulder the first thing that likely comes to mind is the rotator cuff. The rotator cuff is important in tennis, but often times strength imbalances exist within the rotator cuff that can lead to injury. Most notably, tennis players tend to be weak in the muscles that externally rotate the shoulder. External rotation is an outward rotation and is the opposite of the shoulder motion players make when they serve or hit a forehand. To improve strength of the external rotators you can perform the exercises described in this section of the web page. This exercise should be performed with the dominant arm, but should really be performed with both arms if time permits.

Not many people think of the upper back when considering how to strengthen and protect the shoulder. But try this simple drill. Place your hand on the shoulder blades of a player and ask him to raise his arms. Can you feel the shoulder blades move? Shoulder movement is very complex and involves movement of the shoulder blade as well as the actual shoulder joint itself. Weakness in the upper back muscles that stabilize the shoulder blades can cause the shoulder to function improperly and may actually contribute to shoulder pain. Exercises that train the stabilizers of the shoulder blade can help tennis players optimize performance and avoid shoulder injury.

Exercise: Standing External Rotation with Elastic Band
Exercise: Straight Arm Rowing"
-http://www.playerdevelopment.usta.com/content/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=114707&itype=7418

That is, as you serve the forward motion pulls the head of the humerus even further forward, especially if the muscles in back of the shoulder are not strong enough to oppose the forward motion.

I assume you are doing exercises similar to the following: www.asmi.org/SportsMed/media/thrower10.swf

 

[ajjlaaks]

It sounds like you have been under medical care and doing your shoulder exercises...

Yeah, I have talked to a few doctors about my shoulder but none of them could really pinpoint the problem. It seems that the shoulder joint is so complicated that it's impossible to tell exactly what's wrong without extensive (=expensive ) testing and research. But every one of them said pretty much the same thing: exercise the rotator cuff and avoid any movements that feel unpleasant.

Thanks for the links and pictures. I've tried to look into the problem online but as I said, the shoulder is so complicated it really is impossible to tell exactly what's wrong.

But I have done shoulder exercises similar to those described in the "throwers ten" program linked above. And i have to say they have helped a lot. Earlier i couldn't practice serves for 10 minutes without having to stop because of the pain. But now I haven't felt almost any pain or discomfort in my shoulder despite having gone out playing or serving almost every day for the past week.

As to my serve, I've been practicing a lot the past week and focused on trying to get more pronation and moving my weight up and into the court more. And I think my serve has improved a bit. I've noticed more pace and spin, even my accuracy seems better than before. I'll probably make a new video in a couple of days. (Don't know if anyone cares but at least i'll be able to monitor my own progress. So I might just as well post it here).

 

[NLBwell]

Depending upon what is wrong with your shoulder, you might want to try a McEnroe-like service motion. Although you would rotate the shoulder with the arm somewhat behind you, it probably would allow you to move your arm forward into the swing much more naturally. You wouldn't have to move your body out of the way (your leaning over) in order to get to the ball. It would allow you to leave the toss on the right side of your body (vs. it arcing over your head as it does now). The racket path can be somewhat parallel to the baseline, hitting the back of the ball, or more forward, hitting the right side of the ball and getting a lot of slice. I went to it because of a torn elbow tendon, but it is definitely much easier on my shoulder than my old Rafter-like motion which pinches my shoulder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRd-Z8Ao-Kk

 

[chico9166]

Pause your video at the point of maximum knee flexion. (at the end of the windup) Take note of the angle formed between the upper arm and torso. According to Brian Gordon (Tennisplayer), this angle should be in the neighborhood of 80 degrees. You're way off. Which forces you to lift, or abduct your arm before you drop into the downswing. A very difficult proposition, when coordinating arm movement/leg drive.

In the windup, keep your palm down, and keep your arm moving or progressing (lifting/abducting) in the windup, until you stand the racquet shaft up in the trophy pose.

 

[ajjlaaks]

Pause your video at the point of maximum knee flexion. (at the end of the windup) Take note of the angle formed between the upper arm and torso. According to Brian Gordon (Tennisplayer), this angle should be in the neighborhood of 80 degrees. You're way off. Which forces you to lift, or abduct your arm before you drop into the downswing. A very difficult proposition, when coordinating arm movement/leg drive.

In the windup, keep your palm down, and keep your arm moving or progressing (lifting/abducting) in the windup, until you stand the racquet shaft up in the trophy pose.

Very interesting. I went through many youtube clips to try and find some pros serving like me, with their elbow low in the trophy pose. I thought I'd post them here and prove you wrong. But turns out the only pro I could find doing this is Verdasco and even he's motion is less extreme than mine. So I guess that proves me wrong instead

So I gave it some thought and I think youre right. I originally thought I'd leave my elbow low in the trophy pose to minimize the risk of accidentally leaving my racket too far to the right of my body in the racket drop phase, and thus resulting in huge stress on my shoulder. But now that I think about it, it makes sense to raise my elbow higher and closer to the point where I want it in the racket drop. This would result in larger margin for error (less movement=smaller probability of something going wrong, right? I hope someone understood what I mean :??? Anyway, I'm definetly going to try this the next time I'm on a tennis court.

Thanks a lot chico

 

[gindyo]

What I see here is you let the ball drop too far
here is you compared to federer http://s796.photobucket.com/albums/yy247/gindyo/?action=view&current=compare.jpg look at the way you tilt your body so that you can accommodate the ball that has dropped too low. A way to correct this is to try and get your two arms go up together, toss the ball just few inches above the highest point you can reach and not 3 or more feet as you do right now. It is much easier to hit the ball when it has stopped and just started dropping then to let it gain speed while it has been dropping for 3-4 feet. Here is what I am talking about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGWdoNobnCM&feature=related -watch his arms go up together .

 

[ajjlaaks]

What I see here is you let the ball drop too far
here is you compared to federer http://s796.photobucket.com/albums/yy247/gindyo/?action=view&current=compare.jpg look at the way you tilt your body so that you can accommodate the ball that has dropped too low. A way to correct this is to try and get your two arms go up together, toss the ball just few inches above the highest point you can reach and not 3 or more feet as you do right now. It is much easier to hit the ball when it has stopped and just started dropping then to let it gain speed while it has been dropping for 3-4 feet. Here is what I am talking about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGWdoNobnCM&feature=related -watch his arms go up together .

Great post, sir. And nice pic too, thank you

Youre making some solid points. Now that I think about it, the reason my toss is so high is that I like to concentrate on the toss separately before going to the trophy pose and my arms arent going up together like you said. Being able to hit a good serve with a lower toss would definetly have its advantages. A lower toss would be more consistent and less affected by wind. So that's another thing I'll have to focus on in the future.

Another thing that I can see from the picture is that my weight is going too much to the left whereas Roger is leaning in to the court when he makes contact.

 

[chico9166]

Very interesting. I went through many youtube clips to try and find some pros serving like me, with their elbow low in the trophy pose. I thought I'd post them here and prove you wrong. But turns out the only pro I could find doing this is Verdasco and even he's motion is less extreme than mine. So I guess that proves me wrong instead

So I gave it some thought and I think youre right. I originally thought I'd leave my elbow low in the trophy pose to minimize the risk of accidentally leaving my racket too far to the right of my body in the racket drop phase, and thus resulting in huge stress on my shoulder. But now that I think about it, it makes sense to raise my elbow higher and closer to the point where I want it in the racket drop. This would result in larger margin for error (less movement=smaller probability of something going wrong, right? I hope someone understood what I mean :??? Anyway, I'm definetly going to try this the next time I'm on a tennis court.

Thanks a lot chico

But of course I agree with you. In regards to the trophy pose, at first glance, it would appear to most, (i think) that the elbow rides low. This "look", however, is just a result of the shoulder tilt. (up the mountain) As you mentioned, this 80 degree angle formed between upper arm/torso, is found in almost all high level servers. And in fact, something I look for in players. (A generous tilt of the shoulders, but with the elbow elevated enough to transition easily into the downswing)

Coordinating the leg drive, and the backswing (downswing) is one of the more important/difficult aspects of the serve. Elevating the elbow a bit, should help (in your case) better manage, or sync, these two moves.

 

[ajjlaaks]

Finally I got around to making a new video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etQnBHBuHzM

I'm doing a couple of shadow swings before serving to show myself (and you guys) the difference compared to when I actually toss the ball and serve. And from that I can tell that my biggest problem at the moment is the toss and the timing of my swing. I still toss the ball too high and make contact too low.

But on the upside, I think the serves in the newer video look a bit smoother and my weight is going in to the court more.

One intersting thing is that I'm using a platform stance in the shadow swings and when I actually serve, I go to pinpoint. I didn't even notice this before watching the video. Now I'm thinking if i should make a conscious switch to pinpoint as that seems to come naturally. On the other hand it could just be that my toss is a bit off and I'm adjusting to it by taking the little step with my right foot.

Any thoughts?

 

[jackson vile]

Hi all.

I was practicing my serve today and decided to make a little video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QV1tlgtc_8

My serve has always been the weakest part of my game. I've had some shoulder trouble which has prevented me from practicing it properly. During the winter i've been working on my shoulder support muscles, which I'm hoping will help with that. (This was the first time I got to practice my serve in a while so please, be gentle )

What I can gather from the video, my wind up and trophy pose seem pretty solid, but once I get to the actual swing, it's kind of all over the place. Any tips on that? Also my toss seems way too inconsistent so that'll require some work as well.

Any tips and/or comments are much appreciated.

Peronally I noticed you did not have full extension and you were hitting way too low and out in front of you.

Keep the ball above you and make the contact point where your arm is full extened above you.

Finally you are opening the face of your racket up, this should only happen right before the moment of contact.

Everything else looks good.

Just start with hitting lighter, and spining the balls in so that the racket face is staying closed. Once you master that you can start opening the racket face ie pronate for first serves.