Serve diary

[santihaas]

Hello guys, I decided to start a serve diary, here is the footage i've got over time.


09/10/2013 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-QE1-wt0Ww

10/28/2013 (this is where I changed to a new very good coach and did some good changes to my serve, I hope you can notice it) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hCThhmwnwk&feature=youtu.be and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CSWauKdJUg&feature=youtu.be



I'll be updating this weekly if possible.



Any critique, advice, opinion and interessting comment is welcome, thank you

PS : Keep in mind that you can put slow motion in the videos on youtube on the same place where you change the resolution of the video.

 

[andrehanderson]

You have improved a lot! Congratulations!!!

 

[LeeD]

I see no improvement in technique whatsoever.
Your racket hand is waaaaay too high.
Your tossing had is too low.
Tilt of your shoulders is opposite what it should be. Your left shoulder is low, while your right shoulder is high at trophy. Look at the ATP logo. It's the OPPOSITE of yours.
You have rubber arms, no snap whatsoever.
BEND your right elbow. Reach up with your left hand. Archer's bow, low right shoulder, high left shoulder.
Swing at the ball like you mean it, not just going through the motions.
You look like a tall young man. No reason to serve like a girl.

 

[Lukhas]

Well the stuff I already told you still stands. You need a lower right elbow. And your left arm is not straight upwards enough. You also don't need to crouch as much. Stand straighter. You're lowering yourself too much. You don't need to bend your back that much. Really think the serve as an upward pitch, try to get that ball as high as (consistently) possible.

Some pictures to illustrate my point. In blue the line of the left arm, straight upwards, and the position of the right elbow compared to the shoulder line. Click to enlarge.


There is also that very interesting Sampras picture. It's really big so I just put the link.
http://www.top-tennis-training.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/sampras-serve.jpg

What is good is that you're really smooth and fluid, you can get some nice effortless action on your serve. To feel the serve you can try to warm-up with a basket of balls and pitch them really high. I'm putting that one video again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EFWB18kPWY

EDIT: The tricky stuff is that you need lots and lots of repetitions to change your muscle memory. Some improvements you can make on one training day can be lost the next. In fact, not "lots", but "very frequent". Because serving thousands of balls in one go put wear on the shoulder muscles.

 

[santihaas]

Well the stuff I already told you still stands. You need a lower right elbow. And your left arm is not straight upwards enough. You also don't need to crouch as much. Stand straighter. You're lowering yourself too much. You don't need to bend your back that much. Really think the serve as an upward pitch, try to get that ball as high as (consistently) possible.

Some pictures to illustrate my point. In blue the line of the left arm, straight upwards, and the position of the right elbow compared to the shoulder line. Click to enlarge.


There is also that very interesting Sampras picture. It's really big so I just put the link.
http://www.top-tennis-training.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/sampras-serve.jpg

What is good is that you're really smooth and fluid, you can get some nice effortless action on your serve. To feel the serve you can try to warm-up with a basket of balls and pitch them really high. I'm putting that one video again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EFWB18kPWY

EDIT: The tricky stuff is that you need lots and lots of repetitions to change your muscle memory. Some improvements you can make on one training day can be lost the next. In fact, not "lots", but "very frequent". Because serving thousands of balls in one go put wear on the shoulder muscles.

Thanks for the replies andres, leeD and lukhas.

Btw lukhas I was curious, are you a tennis coach? or a college player? or something I dunno haha just curious to know

 

[LeeD]

He's smooth and fluid because he's swinging at 65%, going for sub 85mph serves, and the bounce height shows it.
Court temps probably warmer than 80, player looks decent height, maybe 5'10", he's young and flexible, training at the 4.5 men's level, his serve is his weak point.

 

[Lukhas]

Nah, just a very, very curious guy. There's no really "college tennis" in France. At least, not in the US way. I think there is some kind of college tennis but I'm not familiar with it. However I know there are other college sports for sure, but it's far away from how it is in the USA, really far. I wasn't able to be in a tennis club this year for example, and currently my playing level is abysmal (especially on serve haha). I probably wouldn't be able to rally with you, not anymore.

I often joke that I'm Captain Obvious: I just watch your stuff and see where you can (IMO) improve.

EDIT: Depending on placement and spin, 85mph at 16/17yo is respectable at club level. But as I said, depending on placement and spin. Flat 85mph in the middle of the box ain't gonna cut past a certain level. However, kick or slice with very good placement is often very good. The spin forces your opponent to move and provide their own power, and added to great placement it can pull him off the court or force a weak return. For example, Rafter was a very good S&V player with a deadly serve. However, many players could serve faster than he used to. The key? Excellent kick and placement that made his opponent uncomfortable with the ball.

 

[Ballinbob]

You have the same problem as me in terms of having too high of a hitting arm.

keep working on it man. Work on one thing at a time and don't overwhelm yourself

You have good looking ground strokes and you'll be one heck of a player once your serve catches up to them

Nice looking courts btw, would love to visit Brazil sometime

 

[cjs]

Please, please, please...

land on your front foot only.

Fix this before anything else.

 

[NLBwell]

For practice, point your arm and racket straight up. Then drop the racket to touch the middle of your back with your shoulder staying in the same position (elbow and wrist bend). Practice serving with your arm starting in this position to get the idea of a good racket-head drop/backscratch position.

 

[Mr.Lob]

I don't see how you can focus... serving into that volcano.

 

[Chas Tennis]

..............................http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hCThhmwnwk&feature=youtu.be .....................................................

The issues in the above video are

1) your shoulder orientation vs the proper one as recommended in the Ellenbecker video and described many times in some of the threads below.

2) Your hitting arm goes too high for trophy position as discussed also in the threads.

3) The video could be improved for observing these by videoing from behind - in line with the ball's trajectory- and in bright sunlight where the camera is likely to select a very fast shutter speed and reduce motion blur. Recommend a high speed video camera for the serve otherwise you cannot possibly see the fastest part of the motion leading to ball impact.

There have been many recent threads on the serve.
Search (above) this forum, select "show posts": Chas Tennis serve behind
Search/"show posts": Ellenbecker shoulder impingement

Stop experimenting with your serve right away if you get any pain or discomfort.

 

[The Vitamin L]

Pat Rafter also has a high elbow at the beginning of his serve, the difference though is that he eventually loads into a pitching position soon afterwards. Check out this video to see the difference between your serves. Hope it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsY5uRqTOEI

 

[Chas Tennis]

Pat Rafter also has a high elbow at the beginning of his serve, the difference though is that he eventually loads into a pitching position soon afterwards. Check out this video to see the difference between your serves. Hope it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsY5uRqTOEI

In that video Rafter keeps his upper arm bone where Ellenbecker says that it should be to minimize the risk of impingement. It is most important during shoulder externally rotation and especially during the forceful internal shoulder rotation that gives the most racket head speed leading to impact.
Example
https://vimeo.com/63688134

Google: pictures internal shoulder rotation tennis serve

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=478319&highlight=internal+shoulder+rotation+serve

 

[cjs]

Delete Post

 

[santihaas]

Here are some two 2nd serves at the end of my class : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcl40oehJvU&feature=youtu.be


Sorry I didn't have time to film more 2nd serves and also film 1st serves, another student had to start his class

 

[LeeD]

Better, but the goal is to have the elbow in line with the shoulders, with your hand at the middle of your head, with left shoulder about 6" higher than right shoulder.

 

[santihaas]

By the way, how would you rate that 2nd serve, do you feel any top spin on it, or just slice, I started working on it very recently since i've focused more on the first.

 

[LeeD]

You can check yourself.
You are about 5'10", aren't you?
You hit in warm weather....warmer than my 55 degree average air temps.
A topspin first serve, something you get IN at least 70% of the time, should bounce INside the service court, and land about thigh high at the backwall, 21' behind the baseline. That is an average topspin first serve, maybe 85mph.
A topspin second serve, one that goes in EVERY time, at least 48 out of 50 attempts, should bounce IN, jump up around shoulder high to your opponent at his baseline, and drop possibly to bounce twice before it hits the backwall, if it's hit slow and very safe.
Your first serves should bounce INside the service box, and at least waist high on the backwall, in air temps over 75 degrees. That equates to around 110 mph.

 

[Lukhas]

Please, avoid the VVS syndrome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt9zSfinwFA

More seriously, the slice action is good, especially given your motion. Not really fast though, but if it can pull your opponent off the court and open it for you to use your FH it's good. Even if I really think some pop wouldn't hurt, even at the cost of lowering the slice action. In short, a safe 2nd serve. I can't feel topspin action on it personally.
You might even want to mix it with your 1st serve if you see your opponent is standing too far back to return. For example, you could use it like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNUBeTCyfpc

If you fear your opponent might guess what you do, don't worry. Because there's still this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGo8oQfp4y0

 

[Ballinbob]

Looks like a slice serve to me, don't see too much topspin. Considering the warmer weather I think a topspin serve should bounce a lot higher than that. It's not a bad slice though

Really focus on what people have told you so fat about your technique. You still land on both feet and your hitting elbow is too high. Work on these things one at a time

 

[santihaas]

Here is some raw footage of some serves during class yesterday, it is 3 short videos, please take a look :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMlFSUFI9kw&feature=youtu.be (the guy in white at the beggining is my hitting partner)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB1bTaAeCNw&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9jRSo9_biY&feature=youtu.be


And here is a video of my hitting partner serving haha if you are interested in seeing it : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx9yuEgAmVk

PS : The short guy with the hat is my coach, he coached his son alexandre almeida who was number 1 in brasil for 3 consecutive years in junior, and who had got an atp ranking, his son trained with fernando meligeni in the exact court where I am in this video haha.

 

[WildVolley]

Here is some raw footage of some serves during class yesterday, it is 3 short videos, please take a look :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMlFSUFI9kw&feature=youtu.be (the guy in white at the beggining is my hitting partner)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB1bTaAeCNw&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9jRSo9_biY&feature=youtu.be


And here is a video of my hitting partner serving haha if you are interested in seeing it : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx9yuEgAmVk

PS : The short guy with the hat is my coach, he coached his son alexandre almeida who was number 1 in brasil for 3 consecutive years in junior, and who had got an atp ranking, his son trained with fernando meligeni in the exact court where I am in this video haha.

It is still the exact same problem.:-|

Your hitting elbow is way too high which means that you don't have any low to high motion and your shoulders are too level, and potentially you could injure your shoulder joint.

Drop the elbow at the start of the motion instead of shrugging it up. This will allow you to have a low to high swing path, it will make the path to the ball longer as the elbow moves up, it will improve your toss and it will get the proper shoulder stroke.

The problem with your serve is that you've already grooved a bad technique. You're going to have to work to break your bad habit.

 

[LeeD]

Both of you have serving technique issues.
Your partner's is less glaring, because he has more power.

 

[santihaas]

Do you guy think the serve gained some power? I feel like it's going considerably faster but I'm not sure if it's just an impression or something hehe.

How many mph would you say my fastes serves on the video are going? Is it fast for my age? Please keep in mind that the ball used by my coach aren't the best balls, since balls are very expensive in brazil, coaches have to buy cheaper balls that last longer, they are like very furry and pretty heavy, and they bounce a lot less than normal balls.

Thanks

 

[slowfox]

Just remember to serve "up the mountain" ...

 

[shindemac]

Your serve looks ok for a tennis player of your age. Id say it looks better than the avg poster on this forum though. Your friend needs to loosen up and stop arming it. He can hurt his shoulder.

 

[Lukhas]

Technically speaking, your hitting partner's serve looks much more sound than yours. However he could have his left arm higher, pointing towards the ball, hitting more "up the mountain"... and could stop arming it. He may hurt himself. Ironically he has the form you haven't, and you have the fluidity he hasn't.
If he hits a bit more "up the mountain" and get his contact point as high as possible, he won't need to try as hard to compensate. He has to swing, throw his racquet towards the ball. Not towards the point he wants to hit to. His balls tend to go long, much means that his contact point is too low and that he hasn't a lot of net clearance. So he tries harder to compensate, but since he has low margin due to very flat trajectory and low contact point AND hits harder, his serves tend to go long.
You could show him the "Up the Mountain" video. So you don't have to search it again, here it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs

You didn't change much IMO. Yes you gained a bit more pop. But you have to get rid of your old muscle memory. If you have a garden or a balcony you could try this drill for example. Or even warm up your shoulder using it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVh7tsa2R6I

 

[Graphiteking]

Santihaas, the fact that you have a coach and asking for advice from others raises a red flag. Your elbow is too high and your tossing arm needs to fully extend to the sky. If you don't correct this now your serve will have a serious flaw. You have a live and loose motion, that's a good thing. You are landing in court, that's a good thing. I know you want power, when I was younger I rip the cover off the ball and they returned it. Now I place it, and they can't return it. Do you wanna win or hit the serve 100 mph? Get your elbow down and tossing arm up..

 

[shindemac]

Injury is a very serious issue and any bad technique that leads to it or causes pain needs to be corrected right away! It's even worse to praise it just because it is faster than his friend's serve! Arming it is a short term solution that will lead to a deadend. He might have a faster serve today, but is it worth it for a bad shoulder down the down? Have you ever seen anyone arm it and reach speeds of 90+ mph. No, because it's just bad technique.

By definition, arming it means you are only using your arm to generate your power. That means his legs and torso do not contribute to power. That means any deep knee bends and other proper looking "form" in someone arming it is just a mirage. So maybe someone can hit the perfect trophy pose, but if he doesn't know how to generate power from his body, then it won't matter how he looks.

 

[rufus_smith]

With that lanky body shape and long flexible limbs, OP should eventually have a great serve.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Ellenbecker video

Shoulder, serve and minimizing the risk of impingement.

I believe that serving with ISR is never forced and could cause injury if practiced incorrectly. Here are some known issues. With forceful and rapid ISR the small external shoulder rotator cuff muscles have to be conditioned to keep the ball of the humerus in place and to stop the arm rotation in the follow through. See recommended shoulder conditioning exercises. Easy, light exercises.

There are also the important safety issues related to technique such as the shoulder high orientation for the serve to minimize impingement risk. Just one very bad motion can cause injury.

1) Jim McLennan short video on the rotator cuff, impingement and serving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s

2) Todd Ellenbecker video on shoulder anatomy, impingement, and serving. At about minute 8 he describes the same issue as McLennan but in more detail.
http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&ATT=&reso=lo

If you are concerned because you are having pain, how can you determine that the technique that you use is OK? You have to study and know the proper technique and verify that you are doing it with high speed video or find a well qualified instructor. Keep in mind that the more rapid motions during the serve cannot be seen by eye or even 60 fps video so an instructor who uses HSV is a plus.

 

[jussumman]

You have the same problem as me in terms of having too high of a hitting arm.

keep working on it man. Work on one thing at a time and don't overwhelm yourself

You have good looking ground strokes and you'll be one heck of a player once your serve catches up to them

Nice looking courts btw, would love to visit Brazil sometime

Ballingbob, you say your hitting arm elbow is too high, but nonetheless I've seen video of your serve and it's very effective isn't it? I watch the pros and not two of them have the same exact serving motion. There are many ways to generate power and be effective with serve, OP's motion reminds me of some pro servers who lean back a lot flexing their body and they all have very effective serves.

Agree this is some cool looking courts and scene, how often can you practice the "up the mountain" technique and literally be staring at a volcano mountain right in front of you lol

 

[LeeD]

NO two pros have the exact same serving motion.
However, the majority of pros with good serves end up at trophy position with the left shoulder high, the right shoulder low, the upper arm in line with the tilted shoulders, meaning a low racket hand.
They get there thru different paths, but they all get there.

 

[santihaas]

I tried working on lowering my elbow a little bit, I think it looks better, what do you guys think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwez4ijR1Us&feature=youtu.be


I don't want to keep training this technique if it's not well structured.

 

[Chas Tennis]

How does it compare to the pro videos?

Frame the video to cover your whole serve.

 

[santihaas]

Hey how do I do a fast frame by frame of my serve? last time I took like screenshots and it took ages.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Smartphone or camera? Not sure what can be done on a smartphone itself.

Load video on computer. Usually involves simply connecting smartphone or camera to computer with supplied USB cable(cable may be used in charger) computer sees smartphone or camera when connected as an external drive. Find, select (double mouse click) & view videos. (To get free user's manual for smartphones and cameras, search with smartphone model number and download the full smartphone user's manual from the manufacturer's website, Samsung, etc. on the internet.) If you have a camera it is often convenient to simply take the SD card out of the camera and put it in the SD slot of a laptop computer.

My PC with Windows 7 has Windows Media Player, probably already on your computer when new. It is usually the default video viewer. It can advance single frame by fast clicking on the play-pause button. Maybe there are other ways to single frame ?? but I don't use WMP very often.

I open & view videos that are on my computer with free Quicktime (downloaded from the Apple site). QT uses the > & < keys to advance or go back one video frame. http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/

If you right click a video on your computer it will have an "Open With...." option. I use that to select the video viewer, Quicktime. I have set my default viewer to Quicktime instead of Windows Media Player.

To move fast through a video - Place the mouse indicator on the slide bar at the bottom of the video & click and drag the indicator across the screen.

If viewing Youtube videos, mouse click the play-pause button as fast as possible and, usually, you can advance just one frame. Similar for Vimeo. On a few YT videos the < & > keys even will work to advance or go back one frame.

High speed video cameras, like some Canon Powershot cameras, can usually do single frames on the camera. 240 fps works well for the serve to show everything.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=7741038&postcount=47

Google: tennis serve trophy position pictures
https://www.google.com/search?q=goo...zBOOi-sQSA4oKoBQ&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=995&bih=606

Search the internet for any questions. Example Search: Samsung Galaxy S2 download computer
OR Quicktime video viewer OR Youtube Raonic serve slow motion

 

[Lukhas]

Already better. Not quite there yet but compared to your previous videos we are stepping forward; even if your motion hasn't much changed. Now stop arching your back. Agassi and Federer will thank you.

 

[santihaas]

what does arching my back mean?

 

[Lukhas]

It means that you're bending your back so that it produces an arc. You have the tendency to twist your upper body during your back swing. Keep your upper body straight as much as possible. I mentioned Federer and Agassi because they are two players who had back problems. If you check videos of Federer 2005 and before, you'll realize he was bending his back much more. He always had back problems, but to avoid to aggravate it, he stopped doing so later in his career. So unless you want bad back, keep your upper body and especially your back as straight as possible.

 

[tennis_ocd]

what does arching my back mean?

Ideally you want your hips forward into the court and your chest pointing up into the sky. Many refer to it as getting your body in a bow similar to firing an arrow.

Recently heard one coach say to not even think about the knee bend; just concentrate on arch and let the knee bend come as a natural by-product.

 

[Fintft]

Ideally you want your hips forward into the court and your chest pointing up into the sky. Many refer to it as getting your body in a bow similar to firing an arrow.

Recently heard one coach say to not even think about the knee bend; just concentrate on arch and let the knee bend come as a natural by-product.

True but (and I'm contradicting Lee a bit here), but in order to turn(another component) easier, one is better off bending the knees (even starting the motion that way, just after the tossing arm starts to move)...

That's the latest thing I've learned from coach on the serve, a couple of weeks ago, his point being that it's easier to turn with some degree of knee bend, as oposed to very little or no knee bend.

It looks that I get more pace on the ball that way...

 

[LeeD]

I agree, knee bend, facing your BACK to your opponent, using twist, AND stomach crunch muscles (Roddick), fast swing, very straight not locked elbow at impact, and high contact point with regards to your physique.

 

[dknotty]

It means that you're bending your back so that it produces an arc. You have the tendency to twist your upper body during your back swing. Keep your upper body straight as much as possible. I mentioned Federer and Agassi because they are two players who had back problems. If you check videos of Federer 2005 and before, you'll realize he was bending his back much more. He always had back problems, but to avoid to aggravate it, he stopped doing so later in his career. So unless you want bad back, keep your upper body and especially your back as straight as possible.

Isn't some degree of back arching required on a kick serve?

 

[Topspin Shot]

Isn't some degree of back arching required on a kick serve?

Simply put: leaning backwards, yes; back arching, no. A strong trophy position has a knee bend, archer's bow, shoulder turn, and backward lean. But the back itself must remain straight.

 

[LeeD]

Some players hit kick serves with an arched back.
Are you saying they are wrong?
Or are you saying an arched back is not a necessity, but it's not forbidden, either.

 

[Lukhas]

I am saying that it can cause back pain. Or for the shoulder to compensate. Federer got the former and stopped arching his back as he used to in his younger years. Rafter got the latter and stopped tossing way behind his head... And undergone rotator cuff surgery. Yet he has/had an excellent kick serve.

 

[Fintft]

I agree, knee bend, facing your BACK to your opponent, using twist, AND stomach crunch muscles (Roddick), fast swing, very straight not locked elbow at impact, and high contact point with regards to your physique.

All very good points, thanks! I'm still working on the last few in that sequence and on the flow (something that I've only achieved on a couple of serves last night and it made a nice difference).

 

[santihaas]

Early January 2014 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJ_H4O1QQc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0F8cK4HRHo