Serve Doc FH fundamentals

Curious

Legend
Recently posted video, hitting TT one of most discussed topics. How you like it guys?
Personally found the "hand over the back foot" cue interesting.


PS Was the latter @Serve Doc thread taken down by mods?
I found the part from 8:05 the most interesting. Hand going pretty much linearly forward while it’s the racket head that does the loop (swing)
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Recently posted video, hitting TT one of most discussed topics. How you like it guys?
Personally found the "hand over the back foot" cue interesting.


PS Was the latter @Serve Doc thread taken down by mods?
Yeah, apparently the @Serve Doc thread is gone. Mods probably perceived it as self-promotional. That's a shame. Had he posted the same vid that you did? Don't see any content from him since 2015. (No threads at all started by Pat D have survived).

Do recall posts & threads, mostly from 10+ years ago, from Will Hamilton that were no less self-promoting that were allowed. Content from J Yandell but mostly opinion, informational or (only) borderline self-promotional. Some content from @Kathy Krajco of Operation Doubles (RIP 2008). But more opinion & informational than promotional. Don't recall, have Jeff S, Ian W, Brady H, Clay B or others posted here?
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Yeah, apparently the @Serve Doc thread is gone. Mods probably perceived it as self-promotional. That's a shame. Had he posted the same vid that you did? Don't see any content from him since 2015. (No threads at all started by Pat D have survived).

Do recall posts & threads, mostly from 10+ years ago, from Will Hamilton that were no less self-promoting that were allowed. Content from J Yandell but mostly only borderline self-promotional. Some content from @Kathy of Operation Doubles (RIP 2008). But more informational than promotional. Don't recall, have Jeff S, Ian W, Brady H, Clay B or others posted here?
Well, at least he managed to give us a notice of his published content, and continues on his channel. So we can monitor and pick whatever we like for sharing and discussion...
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I found the part from 8:05 the most interesting. Hand going pretty much linearly forward while it’s the racket head that does the loop (swing)
The strokes are often described in short, easy to remember, phrases such as 'hand going linearly forward'.

Can anyone also show the 'hand going linearly forward' in a video of an ATP or WTA player?
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
The strokes are often described in short, easy to remember, phrases such as 'hand going linearly forward'.

Can anyone also show the 'hand going linearly forward' in a video of an ATP or WTA player?
It's a myth. A unicorn. You won't find it anywhere.
 

Fintft

Legend
Recently posted video, hitting TT one of most discussed topics. How you like it guys?
Personally found the "hand over the back foot" cue interesting.


PS Was the latter @Serve Doc thread taken down by mods?
I liked it but "hand over the back foot" happens naturally.
 

cortado

Semi-Pro
I really can't deal with this weaponised-autism level of analysis of strokes. 90% of the stuff you can see if you slow a stroke down is unconscious. The player is not deliberately doing it, it just happens.
For example, somebody filmed me recently and it turns out I have wrist lag on the forehand, with the buttcap briefly pointing at the ball. However, I am totally unaware of this, I can't feel it when it happens, and it I deliberately try to do it it will negatively affect my shot.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
I really can't deal with this weaponised-autism level of analysis of strokes. 90% of the stuff you can see if you slow a stroke down is unconscious. The player is not deliberately doing it, it just happens.
For example, somebody filmed me recently and it turns out I have wrist lag on the forehand, with the buttcap briefly pointing at the ball. However, I am totally unaware of this, I can't feel it when it happens, and it I deliberately try to do it it will negatively affect my shot.
Well you are good having it. The point is not to deliberately do it, but to check that you do, and if not - try to figure out what needs to be changed.
From my experience and observations, there are players who lack that brief position, which puts extra duty on the wrist and overall slows down the swing, making attempts to accelerate unreliable.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I really can't deal with this weaponised-autism level of analysis of strokes. 90% of the stuff you can see if you slow a stroke down is unconscious. The player is not deliberately doing it, it just happens.
For example, somebody filmed me recently and it turns out I have wrist lag on the forehand, with the buttcap briefly pointing at the ball. However, I am totally unaware of this, I can't feel it when it happens, and it I deliberately try to do it it will negatively affect my shot.
The issue is - Can you describe and communicate to readers a complex 3D tennis stroke using words that do not correspond to anything that can be observed in high speed videos?

You have associated the issue with conscious vs unconscious and "deliberately" doing it. Since a tennis stroke has many, many more nerve instructions than the one thought that you can consciously be aware of, of course you must do them mostly unconsciously and not totally deliberately. The consciously/unconsciously issue becomes a strawman argument since no one else said anything about consciously and deliberately but you.

You used high speed video to see what you were doing. Why not show high speed video to communicate what you mean. Most of the word descriptions do not hold up when compared to high speed video.

Words descriptions vs high speed videos.......

(I have believed tennis word descriptions in the past.)
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Well you are good having it. The point is not to deliberately do it, but to check that you do, and if not - try to figure out what needs to be changed.
From my experience and observations, there are players who lack that brief position, which puts extra duty on the wrist and overall slows down the swing, making attempts to accelerate unreliable.
Could you show "that brief position". You can count frame before impact using the period & comma keys to single frame.

Does "that brief position" appear better from the above camera view?
Frank Salazar Inside Out forehand.

Same inside-out video with Toly composite analysis for hand path. See hand path at end.

Too bad we don't have a few overhead videos of the current forehands.
 
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RiverRat

Semi-Pro
I've enjoyed his simple videos about tactics but have to disagree with the entire focus of this video: the butt end. The butt end points as a consequence of what's really important. Making it the focus destroys its value. The butt end points because of the initiation of the stroke through the kinetic chain, which terminates in the hand and racquet. It's why a whip breaks the speed of sound with a crack in effortless power. Concentrating on the hinge creates a clumsy swinging door. This idea of "bracing" with the wrist only worsens it.
 
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cortado

Semi-Pro
I've enjoyed his simple videos about tactics but have to disagree with the entire focus of this video: the butt end. The butt end points as a consequence of what's really important. Making it the focus destroys its value. The butt end points because of the initiation of the stroke through the kinetic chain, which terminates in the hand and racquet. It's why a whip breaks the speed of sound with a crack in effortless power. Concentrating on the hinge creates a clumsy swinging door. This idea of "bracing" with the wrist only worsens it.
Exactly. If you start the stroke with both hands on racquet, turn shoulders to the forehand side, take racquet back with 2 hands and then let go with non-hitting hand, it is extremely difficult to then bring the racquet to the ball without some amount of wrist lag and 'buttcap-pointing-at-ball'. If the racquet head was to instead lead the hand rather than following it, the ball is not going to go where you want (and so this problem will correct itself quite quickly or you will quit tennis).
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
(and so this problem will correct itself quite quickly or you will quit tennis).
Unfortunately, problems don’t correct themselves for everyone. I get how it’s hard to accept something seemingly working for a person doesn’t help everyone of tennis population, but it happens. We need personal approach and address particular issues in particular state. Heck, even pros have inefficiencies here and there, which haven’t corrected themselves!
Quitting tennis is also not an option for stubborn ones like we are :X3:
 

Curious

Legend
I've enjoyed his simple videos about tactics but have to disagree with the entire focus of this video: the butt end. The butt end points as a consequence of what's really important. Making it the focus destroys its value. The butt end points because of the initiation of the stroke through the kinetic chain, which terminates in the hand and racquet. It's why a whip breaks the speed of sound with a crack in effortless power. Concentrating on the hinge creates a clumsy swinging door. This idea of "bracing" with the wrist only worsens it.
Buttcap pointing at the ball is possible without a whipping motion, too.


 

RiverRat

Semi-Pro
You’re hitting harder than Halep?
I watch her hit a couple of times pretty close up. Nothing like the impression you get in videos!
Whether or not I hit harder isn't relevant. She doesn't have a powerful forehand for the women's tour. It's funny that you point out the video aspect. I had given you some feedback on your serve. You asked to see my serve. I posted it, reminding you that I'm coming off of shoulder surgery. You told me to take it easy and then pointed out you didn't think my serve was more powerful than yours. Again, not really relevant for a number of reasons.
 

Serve Doc

New User
Yes, the moderators nixed the thread. The significance of the Butt end focus as a key fundamental to all great offensive forehands...As a coach, if you stand behind a student and have them take the racquet into backswing position....then hold the end of the racquet head and ask them to begin the forward swing, you often will feel their first move is from the wrist trying to bring the racquet face around in efforts to flatten it for contact but you likely may not feel any forward pull of the racquet out of your hand straight forward driving the butt towards contact point. Common problem in younger players who are still trying to figure out power principles.

As far as much of technique...it is all a natural process but the process can be triggering a natural footwork process that ends up naturally the wrong way...closed stances for example are following a natural process of racquet preparation influencing footwork that sets up less than ideal hitting stances...hopefully this clarifies a little bit.
 

Curious

Legend
Whether or not I hit harder isn't relevant. She doesn't have a powerful forehand for the women's tour. It's funny that you point out the video aspect. I had given you some feedback on your serve. You asked to see my serve. I posted it, reminding you that I'm coming off of shoulder surgery. You told me to take it easy and then pointed out you didn't think my serve was more powerful than yours. Again, not really relevant for a number of reasons.
I think it’s quite relevant if you think about the fact that she’s a world class player with that forehand while you and I are rec players.
 

RiverRat

Semi-Pro
I think it’s quite relevant if you think about the fact that she’s a world class player with that forehand while you and I are rec players.
How is your ad hominem argument relevant? I made a comment about the inefficiency of her technique. If you think she generates more power because of her hinged forehand ,as opposed to one that employs the full power of the kinetic chain, than make an argument. With your logic, none of us should be saying anything about the technique of players better than us. Wouldn't be much of a forum.
 

Curious

Legend
As a coach, if you stand behind a student and have them take the racquet into backswing position....then hold the end of the racquet head and ask them to begin the forward swing, you often will feel their first move is from the wrist trying to bring the racquet face around in efforts to flatten it for contact but you likely may not feel any forward pull of the racquet out of your hand straight forward driving the butt towards contact point.
Absolutely correct observation. My tendency as a low level player is to pivot the racket at the handle as I find the optimal way ( pulling as you describe it) quite unintuitive. I can do it on shadow swings though and it’s the most effortless least resistance ( from inertia) way to swing the racket forward.
 

Serve Doc

New User
Tennis IQ Challenge- Try hitting forehands where with every few strokes... eliminate a finger off the grip starting with the pinky until you are able to hit successfully with just the index finger and thumb holding onto the racquet! If you don't pull the butt end straight forward towards contact and have decent stroke to ball alignment it won't work....old school drill- to experience the same thing was trying to hit balls with a racquet head cover on the racquet. Unless you do the stroke cleanly it doesn't work well at all....try either!
 
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Curious

Legend
How is your ad hominem argument relevant? I made a comment about the inefficiency of her technique. If you think she generates more power because of her hinged forehand as opposed to one that employs the full power of the kinetic chain than make an argument. With your logic, none of us should be saying anything about the technique of players better than us. Wouldn't be much of a forum.
You know there are quite a few guys even on the tour with Halep style forehands, right??
 

RiverRat

Semi-Pro
You know there are quite a few guys even on the tour with Halep style forehands, right??
Probably not the most powerful on tour. Right? I explained her forehand was geared toward consistency. I'm giving her her due, although it's certainly not incumbent upon me. I don't know why your undergarments are so rumpled over my observation. But I really don't care what a "low level player" thinks of my observation. If you have something constructive to contribute, that's something else.
 

Curious

Legend
Probably not the most powerful on tour. Right? I explained her forehand was geared toward consistency. I'm giving her her due, although it's certainly not incumbent upon me. I don't know why your undergarments are so rumpled over my observation. But I really don't care what a "low level player" thinks of my observation. If you have something constructive to contribute, that's something else.
the point is simple , Halep fh is great for you, me and millions of others as well. You thinking it’s not good enough for you is just arrogance.
 

RiverRat

Semi-Pro
the point is simple , Halep fh is great for you, me and millions of others as well. You thinking it’s not good enough for you is just arrogance.
More ad hominem nonsense. Were I to use Halep's technique, my forehand would have less power. Whether she can hit her forehand with more power than I is, once again, irrelevant.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
More ad hominem nonsense. Were I to use Halep's technique, my forehand would have less power. Whether she can hit her forehand with more power than I is, once again, irrelevant.
As a (likely) stronger male, you should be able to hit the Halep FH even harder than she does as you likely have more muscular power and longer arms providing added leverage.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Recently posted video, hitting TT one of most discussed topics. How you like it guys?
Personally found the "hand over the back foot" cue interesting.


PS Was the latter @Serve Doc thread taken down by mods?
I don't know any of the fundamentals that this coach is showing. At least I'm not aware that I'm doing them or not in the way he describes.

Same goes for a lot of the stuff posted in this thread.

But here's a question for anyone,

If a player can consistently rip shots -- quality shots that are consistent and powerful enough to win his level -- does that mean he's already doing all the fundamentals?
 

RiverRat

Semi-Pro
I don't know any of the fundamentals that this coach is showing. At least I'm not aware that I'm doing them or not in the way he describes.

Same goes for a lot of the stuff posted in this thread.

But here's a question for anyone,

If a player can consistently rip shots -- quality shots that are consistent and powerful enough to win his level -- does that mean he's already doing all the fundamentals?
Yes
 

diddyac

Rookie
Probably not the most powerful on tour. Right? I explained her forehand was geared toward consistency. I'm giving her her due, although it's certainly not incumbent upon me. I don't know why your undergarments are so rumpled over my observation. But I really don't care what a "low level player" thinks of my observation. If you have something constructive to contribute, that's something else.
Not sure what you're on about - the result of her power is nothing to do with her technique, and everything to do with her stature

She is tiny person for a tennis player of today's game and when she plays aggressive, she can hit balls that fairly high pace even for her build - fairly short for the top players and seems like no advantages in arm and leg length either, so her reach and leverage are low

She's basically a Nishikori equivalent height vs all the 6ft 2+ players on the ATP tour, where it's not quite Diego Schwartzman of the WTA but definitely a disadvantage, and yet she accomplished so much more than others in her career

Our national women's / girls in our country ranked between 100-500, have plenty of players that are my near my height or taller at 12-17 years old, I'm 5ft 10, Simona is 5ft 5

You do realize the 'WTA' style forehand is made for more power and flatter balls right? if her forehand technique doesn't generate power, than I guess Anisimova, Madison Keys and Yastremska all have underpowered forehands

If Simona was Osaka's height, she would have alot more titles under her belt
 
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Curious

Legend
Watch from 1:07 to have a better idea about her forehands. I feel like these people ( both ATP and WTA) have so immaculate technique and timing and hit the ball so cleanly that rec people can only dream of hitting. The power that comes from that is more than enough for good pace.


 

soft_manatee

New User
i skimmed this conversation and have summarized below:

guy: "hey i think player doing x would be better served doing y"
other guy: "are you JOKING you absolute buffoon, do u even realize just who u r talking about?? ur pathetic 3.5 brain could not even COMPREHEND the level of speed and power this player deals with on a daily basis. i have viewed over 3 years of slow motion video (counting frame before impact using the period & comma keys to single frame) and incorporated every technical intricacy into my game. after all, pro players only use the most O P T I M A L of techniques at all times SO if a pro player did it it must be perfect also you suck at tennis lol :)
 

Fintft

Legend
How is your ad hominem argument relevant? I made a comment about the inefficiency of her technique. If you think she generates more power because of her hinged forehand ,as opposed to one that employs the full power of the kinetic chain, than make an argument. With your logic, none of us should be saying anything about the technique of players better than us. Wouldn't be much of a forum.
I'm Romanian so I root for Halep (#2 WTA), but her FH doesn't have as much power as #10 WTA Sabalenka who distroyed everyone this week with an ATP FH with lag, despite her weight and poorer movement on the court.
Sure Halep might be more consistent, but I prefer the power Sabalenka has on her ATP like FH with lag. Halep wins with her legs more often than not.
BTW Sabalenka is one of the few players Halep lost to, last year.
 
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Fintft

Legend
Watch from 1:07 to have a better idea about her forehands. I feel like these people ( both ATP and WTA) have so immaculate technique and timing and hit the ball so cleanly that rec people can only dream of hitting. The power that comes from that is more than enough for good pace.


"We" (me and other posters and also my coach who is a girl), understand the above, yet a male, especially a strong one is better served by an ATP FH with a compact takeback and more power.
After all, on the tour, most of the active pros use ATP FH right?
For us, rec players it is even more important, as we are not such great movers.
You might even have a longer career if you play attacking tennis like Federer as opposed to defending like Nadal.
 

Fintft

Legend
Could you point out the times of a few of the forehands with this "hand over the back foot"?
Uhm, without looking too closely, all of them, or at least the first couple of FHs, beloning to Nadal and Roger?

Anyhow, like you, I had some doubts for the neutral/closed stances (like I use), I believe the Doc meant it primarely for open stance.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Uhm, without looking too closely, all of them, or at least the first couple of FHs, beloning to Nadal and Roger?

Anyhow, like you, I had some doubts for the neutral/closed stances (like I use), I believe the Doc meant it primarely for open stance.
If one object is 'over' another, then a vertical line, as shown by a plumb bob, from one object would go to the lower object.

1) First, when during the hand's path does it appear over the left foot?
2) Is it when the hand reaches its farthest backward point and turns around to come forward? For the hands at their farthest points back, I see the hand as well back from the left foot, sometimes by 2 feet/0.6 meter.
3) Is "over the left foot" at some unspecified time, only an instant, during the hand path? When?
4) Do we ignore how it would appear from an above camera view?

An image is two dimensional: 1) the dimension up-down in the frame and the dimension side-to-side in the frame are well shown. But the 3rd dimension toward-away from the camera is shrunken or even hidden.

For a camera at ground level, a hand can appear over a foot from one camera angle. But as you move the camera around the player, from other camera angles the hand would not appear over the foot. Only if the hand were truly over the foot, and a plumb bob showed that, would the hand appear over the foot as the camera was moved around the player.

If the main take away of a reader is that I should have my hand over my left foot, then tennis terms have misled again. You can literally place your hand, at its farthest take back, over your left foot. But what was intended?

What is seen in videos from different camera viewing angles?
 
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Fintft

Legend
If one object is 'over' another, then a vertical line, as shown by a plumb bob, from one object would go to the lower object.

1) First, when during the hand's path does it appear over the left foot?
2) Is it when the hand reaches its farthest backward point and turns around to come forward? For the hands at their farthest points back, I see the hand as well back from the left foot, sometimes by 2 feet/0.6 meter.
3) Is "over the left foot" at some unspecified time, only an instant, during the hand path? When?
4) Do we ignore how it would appear from an above camera view?

An image is two dimensional: 1) the dimension up-down in the frame and the dimension side-to-side in the frame are well shown. But the 3rd dimension toward-away from the camera is shrunken or even hidden.

For a camera at ground level, a hand can appear over a foot from one camera angle. But as you move the camera around the player, from other camera angles the hand would not appear over the foot. Only if the hand were truly over the foot, and a plumb bob showed that, would the hand appear over the foot as the camera was moved around the player.

If the main take away of a reader is that I should have my hand over my left foot, then tennis terms have misled again. You can literally place your hand over your left foot at its farthest take back.

What is seen in videos from different camera viewing angles?
Probably seen from the front, so yes to your 4th question.
Anyhow it didn't seem such an important check point to me.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm Romanian so I root for Halep (#2 WTA), but her FH doesn't have as much power as #10 WTA Sabalenka who distroyed everyone this week with an ATP FH with lag, despite her weight and poorer movement on the court.
Sure Halep might be more consistent, but I prefer the power Sabalenka has on her ATP like FH with lag. Halep wins with her legs more often than not.
BTW Sabalenka is one of the few players Halep lost to, last year.
OTOH Simona prevailed over Aryna in their last meeting -- QF at Dubai. And is still ahead, 3-1, in their h2h.

The Halep Fh really isn't as weak as some would have you believe. Not as big as Aryna, Serena, Maddy Keys and some others but nonetheless effective. It was a lot more than just effective against Serena on the Wimbledon grass. (And Simona's Bh is not too shabby either. Perhaps one of the better ones on the WTA tour now).
 
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Dragy

Hall of Fame
OTOH Simona prevailed over Aryna in their last meeting -- QF at Dubai. And is still ahead, 3-1, in their h2h.

The Halep Fh really isn't as weak as some would have you believe. Not as big as Aryna, Serena, Maddy Keys and some others but nonetheless effective. It was a lot more than just effective against Serena on the Wimbledon grass. (And Simona's Bh is not too shabby either. Perhaps one of the better ones on the WTA tour now).
Great thing about Aryna is she sends monster balls seemingly out of nowhere at times, like rushed or semi-prepared. Unless familiar with TT wisdom on advantages of ATP techniques one may wonder how she does this! :laughing:
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm Romanian so I root for Halep (#2 WTA), but her FH doesn't have as much power as #10 WTA Sabalenka who distroyed everyone this week with an ATP FH with lag, despite her weight and poorer movement on the court.
Sure Halep might be more consistent, but I prefer the power Sabalenka has on her ATP like FH with lag. Halep wins with her legs more often than not.
BTW Sabalenka is one of the few players Halep lost to, last year.
As mentioned previously, Simona's Fh can be pretty effective even tho it's not quite as big as some of the most powerful FHs in the WTA. I came across an interesting match charting project from last year on Tennis Abstract for some data for the past decade or so.

In particular, I found some enlightning match charting for WTA players with the best chances of winning the point after hitting a Fh from the Bh corner. (The popular run-around inside Fh).

Halep shows a very respectable 63+% in this table. This puts her just a a little bit lower than the bigger forehands of Cibulkova, Sharapova & Ivanovic. But, and this respect, she is noticeably higher than Madison Keys (59%) who has one of the biggest forehands on the WTA tour today.

I'll have to dig a bit more to see if more of this data has been published.
 

Fintft

Legend
OTOH Simona prevailed over Aryna in their last meeting -- QF at Dubai. And is still ahead, 3-1, in their h2h.

The Halep Fh really isn't as weak as some would have you believe. Not as big as Aryna, Serena, Maddy Keys and some others but nonetheless effective. It was a lot more than just effective against Serena on the Wimbledon grass. (And Simona's Bh is not too shabby either. Perhaps one of the better ones on the WTA tour now).
I agree that Simona can hit her FH very well, especially I like her depth and topspin, often in the corners.
Her BH is effective mostly when she can hit the DTL ones as well. Serena was totally out of shape at Wimbledon.
Simona has probably the best legs in WTA though.

But we are not discussing Halep, my point being that males (and even some WTA players, especially heavy ones) are better served by the ATP FH.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I found the part from 8:05 the most interesting. Hand going pretty much linearly forward while it’s the racket head that does the loop (swing)
I agree this was the best part of the video and don't think he dealt with the butt cap use that well though.
yes, this is much the same as Dr Gordon confirmed in his study yrs ago which supported the modern swing fundamentals stated yrs before that...... although it isn't so much forward as it is "towards the contact point".
By the way, Hello Pat if you are checking out this thread. I've been told you read some of the threads on here. (I wrote that before seeing that he had posted on here....cool)
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
It's a myth. A unicorn. You won't find it anywhere.
So you think Dr Gordon study about this is debunked or are you just kidding around? While not perfectly linear, Imo there is a very nearly linear phase of the swing once in the slot towards contact, and especially pronounced when using the ATP backswing.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I really can't deal with this weaponised-autism level of analysis of strokes. 90% of the stuff you can see if you slow a stroke down is unconscious. The player is not deliberately doing it, it just happens.
For example, somebody filmed me recently and it turns out I have wrist lag on the forehand, with the buttcap briefly pointing at the ball. However, I am totally unaware of this, I can't feel it when it happens, and it I deliberately try to do it it will negatively affect my shot.
I agree with Dragy's point and there is also the idea of the 4 phases of becoming a "conscious" competent for aspects of your game. From my point of view, this view was just the opposite level and such a low res view that it is hardly worth watching. I like Pat and his effort to keep it simple, but Imo this was so basic that it doesn't do justice to him or IMG.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Sure is, but I don't want that low power forehand. I believe the WTA forehand was created to produce a low-power but consistent shot.
Interesting because one of the WTA women (Keys) had a higher avg Fh speed than the men by over 5 mph. Nobody has been able to show that a WTA takeback results in slower shots than the ATP takeback to my knowledge. I know some like you throw out that claim, but I think it lacks support. Soderling and Hewitt hit strong with the WTA takeback as well.
 
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