Serve: high elbow position after impact

[gzhpcu]

The serve motion is the shot where we see the most body segmenting. In tennis power comes from the ground up. The legs are the 1st in the kinetic chain. The legs bend, straighten, rotate and stop. The hips pick up the speed of the legs by rotating forward and then stop their rotation. The shoulders take that speed and continue to twist forward and then cartwheeling until they are stopped by the left arm (for right handers), which comes across the body. The elbow picks up the speed and extends until it stops, transferring all it’s momentum to the wrist. The wrist snaps forward and upward then stops to make the racquet head whip through the contact of the ball. You’ll see that many pro’s finish with their elbow up and the racquet arm on the same side of the body it started on.

This high elbow position after impact, with the forearm bending down and the racket head pointing down and facing outwards is particularly pronounced in the big servers like Sampras, Becker, Karlovic.

Seems to me that the high elbow position comes from the fact that the racket was properly aimed at the point of impact in order to get maximum acceleration there, resulting in the elbow remaining in a high position after impact. If the elbow is not high after impact, then the point of maximum acceleration is further beyond the impact point and less effective since it occurs too late.

Am I seeing this right?

 

[Solat]

yes pretty much

 

[5263]

The serve motion is the shot where we see the most body segmenting.
This high elbow position after impact, with the forearm bending down and the racket head pointing down and facing outwards is particularly pronounced in the big servers like Sampras, Becker, Karlovic.

Seems to me that the high elbow position comes from the fact that the racket was properly aimed at the point of impact in order to get maximum acceleration there, resulting in the elbow remaining in a high position after impact. If the elbow is not high after impact, then the point of maximum acceleration is further beyond the impact point and less effective since it occurs too late.

Am I seeing this right?

I think you are very much on the right track here, but the last sentence is not entirely accurate.
It would likely mean that the racket had taken a wider, slower arc, but may (or may not) still have max velocity for that arc at the right time. It would just have a slower Vmax.

 

[LeeD]

Since the server just accelerated his racket head thru the ball, the rackethead LEADS the elbow after the ball is hit, which makes the elbow appear to TRAIL the rackethead, causing the effect of high elbow.
The fastest moving part, the rackethead, always will make everything else appear to TRAIL it.

 

[gzhpcu]

Yes, but in addition, the servers I mentioned, not only have the high elbow, but it remains high, with the forearm bent down appreciably after impact, forming a pronounced arch. They keep the elbow high. Others like Agassi, don't, the forearm and upper arm form practically a straight line.

For example, watch Sampras who has this arch after impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fHO7dnt2eY&feature=related
whereas Molik does not:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-hV1iVOc0-eI/alicia_molik_slow_motion_topspin_serve/

 

[5263]

Yes, but in addition, the servers I mentioned, not only have the high elbow, but it remains high, with the forearm bent down appreciably after impact, forming a pronounced arch. They keep the elbow high. Others like Agassi, don't, the forearm and upper arm form practically a straight line.

For example, watch Sampras who has this arch after impact:
]

i see this to be related to elbow extension delay.
the delay causes the forearm and racket head to hinge over the top with acceleration.

 

[gzhpcu]

i see this to be related to elbow extension delay.
the delay causes the forearm and racket head to hinge over the top with acceleration.

Trying to understand this... why wouldn't just the whole arm straighten out? We have two breaks here: upper arm - forearm, forearm - racket.

 

[LeeD]

Personal style, that's all..
Comparing a girl's serve to a guys is just RIDICULOUS !
And Sampras is known to have the fastest topspin serve, so it has LESS spin than most servers, but more ball speed, hence the slowing of the upper arm to accelerate the lower.

 

[5263]

Trying to understand this... why wouldn't just the whole arm straighten out? We have two breaks here: upper arm - forearm, forearm - racket.

when the extension is delayed,
and the arm straightens in segments,
then the last part is a fast arc by wrist and racket.
pronation
This fast arc is tight, but
has enough pull to get the elbow to bend
to soften the follow thru
then last some shoulder rotation as well.
all part of the decel.
most of it is done by the time the elbow bends,
hence the seeming pause at that time.
It is not really a pause,
but just so much slower that it gives that effect.

 

[larry10s]

looks to me andy does not have that sampras idiosyncratic high elbow yet i would consider him a big server. btw what was your final thoughts on the extent of racquet drop and your serve? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T__9ZuSID4w&feature=related

 

[larry10s]

at some point as you decelerate the elbow will be higher as the reverse of the chain relaxes wrist fore arm upper arm. i also read somewhere if you are hitting relatively more straight ahead your elbow bend will not be as great as when you go more right to left. the extreme is the kick serve where you have an arch along the right side of your body made by your trunk upper arm forearm and racquet.

 

[tennisdad65]

For example, watch Sampras who has this arch after impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fHO7dnt2eY&feature=related
whereas Molik does not:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-hV1iVOc0-eI/alicia_molik_slow_motion_topspin_serve/

It is difficult to compare the two videos.
1) in this video, Sampras is hitting a flat serve and Molik is hitting a topspin serve.
2) sampras is hitting a relaxed warm up serve...

 

[gzhpcu]

Personal style, that's all..
And Sampras is known to have the fastest topspin serve, so it has LESS spin than most servers, but more ball speed, hence the slowing of the upper arm to accelerate the lower.

Sorry, not true. Sampras combines speed and spin, by his extreme lean into the court.

Look at stats on his rpm on the serve:
http://www.advancedtennis.com/results/servemen.htm

and read this:

Research based on quantitative filming in actual match play reveals that Sampras achieves phenomenal spin rates. This is what sets his serve apart. It’s probably best understood as a high-velocity kick.

http://www.tennis.com/yourgame/instructionarticles/visuals/visuals.aspx?id=109012

 

[gzhpcu]

at some point as you decelerate the elbow will be higher as the reverse of the chain relaxes wrist fore arm upper arm. i also read somewhere if you are hitting relatively more straight ahead your elbow bend will not be as great as when you go more right to left. the extreme is the kick serve where you have an arch along the right side of your body made by your trunk upper arm forearm and racquet.

Thanks. That is it, since Sampras always had lots topspin on his serve, explains his racket trajectory.

 

[gzhpcu]

It is difficult to compare the two videos.
1) in this video, Sampras is hitting a flat serve and Molik is hitting a topspin serve.
2) sampras is hitting a relaxed warm up serve...

OK, look at Federer's serve. He does not have the high elbow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcjZ5r_YHV0

 

[larry10s]

you still did not answer my question . just curious with all the repsonces what have come to as far as your understanding?

 

[gzhpcu]

looks to me andy does not have that sampras idiosyncratic high elbow yet i would consider him a big server. btw what was your final thoughts on the extent of racquet drop and your serve? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T__9ZuSID4w&feature=related

In the article on the Sampras serve I posted above, it states that Roddick's serve is easier to return than Sampras's, because even if Sampras's is slower, it is a lot heavier due to element of heavy topspin his serve has.

Federer has made a habit of neutralizing Andy Roddick’s 140-mph serve with his phenomenal returns. But against Sampras, Federer struggled to put the ball in play and many of his returns appeared uncharacteristically weak. Sampras’ ball somehow just looked different—it appeared much “heavier” than the top servers in the current pro game. Was that an illusion?

.....

Research based on quantitative filming in actual match play reveals that Sampras achieves phenomenal spin rates. This is what sets his serve apart. It’s probably best understood as a high-velocity kick.

My understanding now is that the extreme high elbow postion and bent forearm after impact is evidence of lots of spin on the serve (as evidenced by Sampras). Whether or not a core fundamental or just something typical of Sampras, I do not know...

 

[gzhpcu]

P.S. Think FYB explains it well here:
http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/videos/index.php/view/992/280/Tennis_Kick_Serve_Progressions_Step_2_Follow_Through

 

[gzhpcu]

at some point as you decelerate the elbow will be higher as the reverse of the chain relaxes wrist fore arm upper arm. i also read somewhere if you are hitting relatively more straight ahead your elbow bend will not be as great as when you go more right to left. the extreme is the kick serve where you have an arch along the right side of your body made by your trunk upper arm forearm and racquet.

Just reread this and need a clarification to be clear: you state going more right to left.

At impact for the kick serve, the ball is struck inside - out, going across the ball from left to right.

What are you alluding to with your statement? Racket head or arm?

 

[gzhpcu]

Firefox posted this picture of Fernando Lopez on another thread, which shows the start of the high elbow and elbow bend position nicely...

 

[larry10s]

Just reread this and need a clarification to be clear: you state going more right to left.

At impact for the kick serve, the ball is struck inside - out, going across the ball from left to right.

What are you alluding to with your statement? Racket head or arm?

meant left to right sorry

 

[larry10s]

at some point every one has to bend the arm during deceleration so the elbow will be higher than the hand. i still think you zone into idiosyncarcies and see them as the key to unlock the your serve .imho not meant to be derigatory. why dont you just perfectly copy roddick and his peculiarities ie wind up style unique stance etc as the way to a 150mph serve?

 

[gzhpcu]

at some point every one has to bend the arm during deceleration so the elbow will be higher than the hand. i still think you zone into idiosyncarcies and see them as the key to unlock the your serve .imho not meant to be derigatory. why dont you just perfectly copy roddick and his peculiarities ie wind up style unique stance etc as the way to a 150mph serve?

Because I am looking for additional core fundamentals. The stance is not a core fundamental, neither is the abbreviated pickup. Core fundamentals are: shoulder turn, knee bend, shoulder turn, shoulder over shoulder cartwheeling, racket drop (and on the right side of the body - away from the body), pronation, keeping loose, moving the left hip forward when placing the ball up, continental or eastern backhand grip.

 

[larry10s]

your quest for understanding is commendable. is it for your own game and/or are you a teaching pro? i guess i may never be an inventor because since i have a day job i cant research all issues in tennis (or practice as much as i would like and need to) i leave the research to professionals. i subscribe to various websites (instructional) and try to read as much as i can. if the elbow bend look of sampras( similar to his high elbow takeback on his forehand) was a core fundamental by now 15 or so years since he was considered great it would be emphasized more in the instructional articles.imho i do not have the knowledge to always come up with an explanation that makes you happy although i try to be as accurate and logical as possible. i am enjoying these posts because they make you think and most posters are adding useful comments as opposed to some threads where i cant beleive some of the off topic ,sarcastic, or really stupid things posted.keep coming up with issues to ponder but again i think WE (tenniswarehouse posters) are probably not going to invent a better wheel. but we can help each other understand accepted principles better.

 

[gzhpcu]

your quest for understanding is commendable. is it for your own game and/or are you a teaching pro?

It is for my game. Being an engineer, I like to understand how things work...

i think WE (tenniswarehouse posters) are probably not going to invent a better wheel. but we can help each other understand accepted principles better.

Absolutely. And going beyond the theoretical, by trying some of the theories out, to the best of our abilities. The internet is good for this. I have found you can pick things up here and there, but have yet to find one source which tells it all. Sometimes I wonder as to how much we have really progressed in our understanding of tennis technique. I found some old books, like The Fundamentals of Tennis by Stanley Plagenhoef, that tells much of what is discussed today. Plagenhoef was a real pioneer...

 

[larry10s]

It is for my game. Being an engineer, I like to understand how things work...

Absolutely. And going beyond the theoretical, by trying some of the theories out, to the best of our abilities. The internet is good for this. I have found you can pick things up here and there, but have yet to find one source which tells it all. Sometimes I wonder as to how much we have really progressed in our understanding of tennis technique. I found some old books, like The Fundamentals of Tennis by Stanley Plagenhoef, that tells much of what is discussed today. Plagenhoef was a real pioneer...

dont you find the "core "
of engineering has not changed much. old concepts evolve intto newer transformations but we stand on the shoulders of those that come before us.

 

[larry10s]

whats your comment on if it has not been emphasized by now by the "experts" its proably not fundamental?

 

[gzhpcu]

dont you find the "core "
of engineering has not changed much. old concepts evolve intto newer transformations but we stand on the shoulders of those that come before us.

True, applies to software engineering as well.

 

[gzhpcu]

whats your comment on if it has not been emphasized by now by the "experts" its proably not fundamental?

Mostly true I guess, though there are some differences of opinions even today among the "experts" on some aspects of the game.
Before high speed photography came along, the experts spoke of "wrist snap", now they speak of forearm pronation, wrist ulnar deviation and flexion. So, some evolutionary progress has been made.

A quote from a modern book Biomechanical Principles of Tennis Technique by Duane Knudson regarding the serve (page 60):

Biomechanics uses the idea of "degrees of freedom" to describe the number of motions that must be controlled in a linked segment system... the serving arm can be said to have 7 degrees of freedom. The timing of these seven joint motions is what makes a serve so complex.

Coaches and players would love easy, simple answers to the question of what is the best sequence and what is the most important joint movement in a flat serve. Unfortunately, the complexity of the body and individual differences make this very unlikely..."

 

[bhupaes]

The photographs don't show which is the cause and which is the effect. To me (and I could be wrong, of course) the high elbow finish looks like the after effect of a strong serve with heavy pronation. Also, these servers (Sampras, Lopez) seem to have extremely flexible joints which accentuates the high elbow. If one intentionally tries to create a high elbow finish, I suspect it will be more of a biomechanical impediment than a help. IMHO, it is not a core fundamental.

 

[gzhpcu]

The photographs don't show which is the cause and which is the effect. To me (and I could be wrong, of course) the high elbow finish looks like the after effect of a strong serve with heavy pronation. Also, these servers (Sampras, Lopez) seem to have extremely flexible joints which accentuates the high elbow. If one intentionally tries to create a high elbow finish, I suspect it will be more of a biomechanical impediment than a help. IMHO, it is not a core fundamental.

Tend to think you are right. Sampras, Becker, Edberg do it and all had very heavy pronation.

While most probably not being a core fundamental, I wonder if it is in the category of "fine tuning", i.e. just an extra little tweak for a great serve with lots of spin.

Biomechanically, to avoid injury on a fast serve, the movement must be loose and as natural and non-stressful as possible.

If you go through the serving motion slowly with a relaxed arm, the pronation of the arm occurs naturally and is the consequence of a non-stress movement. The arm extends at impact.

It seems to me, that when, still doing the movement in slow motion, and in addition, going for heavy pronation so that the racket shaft is practically perpendicular to the ground at the end, the high elbow and arm bend at the elbow joint occurs naturally. The accentuation of pronation seems to me to be aided by not moving the racket head away from the body after impact, but rather bending the elbow and pulling the racket head somewhat closer to the body again. Try it. What do you think?

Here is an interesting article the biomechanics of the serve:
http://neon.byu.edu/~seeleym/exsc365(seeley)/Term_project/tennis_example.pdf

 

[gzhpcu]

Hey, even the great Pancho Gonzales used to do it!

 

[larry10s]

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/83935278/Getty-Images-Sport?axd=DetailPaging.Generic|1&axs=0|83935929%2c83935853%2c83935842%2c83935639%2c83935594%2c83935560%2c83935543%2c83935538%2c83935509%2c83935468%2c83935409%2c83935288%2c83935285%2c83935283%2c83935278%2c83935275%2c83935175%2c83935172%2c83935168%2c83935136%2c83925019%2c83925009%2c83924992%2c83924984%2c83924979%2c83924933%2c83924821%2c83904194%2c83904112%2c83904062%2c83903665%2c83903658%2c83903654%2c83903644%2c83903631%2c83903626%2c83903605%2c83903599%2c83903579%2c83903554%2c83903549%2c83903529%2c83903265%2c83902901%2c83902810%2c83902807%2c83901318%2c83901302%2c83901101%2c83901071%2c83901066%2c83883939%2c83883904%2c83883849%2c83883787%2c83883632%2c83883598%2c83883592%2c83883510%2c83862006|0

 

[larry10s]

trying to post a picture of petes high elbow position.(from getty images) the difference beteen him and panco and most of us is his high elbow is VERY early after contact. i think most people get to the racquet perpendicular and elbow high position as they relax agter contact. they gey there much later than pete. can you help me and post the pic and yours together?

 

[larry10s]

The key to the topspin is the placement of Sampras’ toss. Compared to most other top servers, his toss is further to his left and closer to the edge of his head at contact. His motion to the ball, then, is more radically upward with his hand and racquet. This explains the “high” elbow position in his motion as well. The arm releases and bends sooner than in a motion that is moving more from left to right.

 

[larry10s]

^^^^^^ came from this article . i think you will like it http://tennis.com/yourgame/instructionarticles/visuals/visuals.aspx?id=109012

 

[larry10s]

How does Sampras produce this unique ball? For starters, look at the depth of his racquet drop. depth of racquet drop. does the six inches matter?

 

[larry10s]

if the stuff in this article was cited in prior threads sorry to duplicate

 

[gzhpcu]

Here are the Sampras and Pancho pictures...

 

[JediMindTrick]

Yes, but in addition, the servers I mentioned, not only have the high elbow, but it remains high, with the forearm bent down appreciably after impact, forming a pronounced arch. They keep the elbow high. Others like Agassi, don't, the forearm and upper arm form practically a straight line.

For example, watch Sampras who has this arch after impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fHO7dnt2eY&feature=related
whereas Molik does not:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-hV1iVOc0-eI/alicia_molik_slow_motion_topspin_serve/

This is great stuff, you can clearly see the flaw in Molik's serve.

Regarding you're description of the serve, it is pretty much spot on IMO, but you have to be carefull when you seek advice on these boards because there are many non-experts who are doing things wrong but think they are doing them right and they offer them as advice, like the notorious "hit down on the ball and snap your wrist" or "supinate on the slice serve".

Scratch that, there is no flaw in Molik's serve, in fact I think I've just learned something from her.

 

[gzhpcu]

Taylor Dent's serve after impact...

 

[J011yroger]

Tremendous picture.

Just wanted to say thanks for starting these couple of threads you did, I find the discussion friendly and interesting.

J

 

[larry10s]

very thought provoking and causing me to reexplore my understanding of the concepts. refreshing to have monomalto none sarcastic or innappropriate comments. great job to all and kudos to gzhpcu

 

[bhupaes]

Man, Dent looks like the hulkster gone crazy... great picture!

I tried some serve motions that result in the high elbow position, and I don't feel very comfortable doing it - lack of flexibility in the shoulder, probably. I still think that it is a side effect, resulting from the tremendous racquet head speeds these guys generate when they pronate, which simply pulls the elbow into that high position.

But it is great discussion, neverthless - thanks!

 

[gzhpcu]

Thanks Larry...

bhupaes, another "hulkster gone crazy" picture for you of Dent. He serves practically as fast as Roddick, but I have always found his style lacking elegance...

and look here:
http://www.jamd.com/image/g/1176189

 

[bhupaes]

^^^ Man, if I could make a face like that, I would win all my service games through sheer intimidation!

 

[larry10s]

another peculiarity of dent is he brings his RIGHT foot into the court first

 

[gzhpcu]

another peculiarity of dent is he brings his RIGHT foot into the court first

Which is what Gonzales, et al, had to do before the tennis rules where changed to allow jumping in the sixties, since at least one foot had to remain in contact with the court...

 

[larry10s]

Man, Dent looks like the hulkster gone crazy... great picture!

I tried some serve motions that result in the high elbow position, and I don't feel very comfortable doing it - lack of flexibility in the shoulder, probably. I still think that it is a side effect, resulting from the tremendous racquet head speeds these guys generate when they pronate, which simply pulls the elbow into that high position.

But it is great discussion, neverthless - thanks!

i also think it a result of what came before. difficult to force the position. just like you dont really "snap"your wrist.

 

[Kevo]

In my effort to teach new players to serve, I often have them start from just before contact and have them reach up and pronate through the ball and simply relax after contact. This is basically the critical part of the serve and is totally focused on contact.

Most people after they understand what they are trying to do end up with a high elbow position after contact with the racquet pointing down. Of course, some people can pick this up fairly quickly and are shocked to learn that they can hit the ball in with basically the same speed as their "old" serve with so much less effort.

I had one girl who started jumping up and down after about 5 hits when she just lazily hit what was probably her best serve ever. Most of what happens before that critical point of contact just serves to mess people up. I know this from personal experience.

I can hit a serve with a relaxed motion with almost no knee bend and no lean into the court about 95mph. It takes a lot of effort for me to hit a serve over 110mph with about 115mph being the fastest I've hit. The problem is that all the other elements can rob your serve of power if they are not timed properly.

I think understanding the shoulder, arm, and wrist part of the service motion is absolutely the most critical, and just getting that part right can get you very far.

Getting that last 20% or so out of your serve requires a lot of practice and excellent timing with all the other elements.