Serve: high elbow position after impact
- Thread starter gzhpcu
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J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Shocks me every time I do it, and no matter how many times I experience it, no matter how many times I say it.
I told a lesson, "Now watch this I am going to hit this ball with a loose arm and almost no effort." Just pitched the ball up in the air, and took a zero effort warmup swing at it. The gun read 112.
I said out loud "See what I am talking about?"
I thought to myself "It can't possibly be this easy!"
Stupid brain getting in the way of me playing tennis.
J
gzhpcu
Professional
The moment you think about doing something during any stroke, your brain will interfere with your movement. Little kids just ape what they see. IMHO, we need to do the same: look at videos of the serves we want to copy, then try and let it happen. This is a combination of Yandell's *visual tennis* concept and the "inner game" by Gallwey.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Your enthusiasm will certainly help you achieve your goals....
Hope so. I tried to dust off the flat ball tonite. Saw a couple glimmers but it will take a couple more weeks to get it out of hibernation.
Hopefully the video came out, I only served at the end of the session, and I don't know at what point the memory card ran out.
J
gzhpcu
Professional
do you think it might be can your body do it? rather than will it work for you.the common fundamentals or "core" positions work if you can train yourself to attain them if it does not come naturally.
gzhpcu
Professional
Right, there are biomechanical differences from person to person. You have to find out what you characteristics are biomechanically, and modify as need be your tennis technique to optimize performance and also to avoid injury. For example, I am more flexible on the right side of my body (lying on my back, bending my leg and pulling it towards my head, I can easily touch my right knee with my head. Am about 6 inches short of doing so with my left leg. I also see that my right hip bone is slightly higher than my left hip bone.) In biomechanics for the Range-of-Motion Principle there are number of static flexibility tests which can show the strengths and weaknesses in human movement. This could be mapped to tennis technique to see how theory can be best adapted to your body.
gzhpcu
Professional
Attempting to sum up this thread as well:
Initially, I thought that perhaps the high elbow postion was an indication of a generally applicable core fundamental on the serve.
Now, thanks to this discussion;
Will's site explains this nicely with his twist serve videos.
Initially, I thought that perhaps the high elbow postion was an indication of a generally applicable core fundamental on the serve.
Now, thanks to this discussion;
- I think if is simply a charateristic of a server hitting a kick serve.
- You turn your shoulders more for a kick serve.
- Pronation timing is also different, it is more delayed than on a flat serve, since you are hitting more up and across and need to position the racket face correctly for this altered trajectory (in respect to the flat serve).
- All this leads to a high elbow on the follow-through.
Will's site explains this nicely with his twist serve videos.
gzhpcu
Professional
I am reviving this thread, because of a related question. It is not only a question of the high elbow position after impact on the followthrough, but also the angle between upper arm and forearm. Some players have their upper arm and forearm close to straight. Others, like Sampras and Dent, for example, keep the elbow high longer and, consequently, the forearm bends in respect to the upper arm, in some cases up to 90 degrees.
Question: Why?
What I tend to think is it is due to the aiming point: if aim forward, this will tend not to keep the elbow in the high position and will extend the entire arm forward. If you aim up (to get topspin), you will tend to keep your elbow up longer, causing the forearm to bend downwards. I think the latter results in achieving more topspin.
Any other suggestions?
Question: Why?
What I tend to think is it is due to the aiming point: if aim forward, this will tend not to keep the elbow in the high position and will extend the entire arm forward. If you aim up (to get topspin), you will tend to keep your elbow up longer, causing the forearm to bend downwards. I think the latter results in achieving more topspin.
Any other suggestions?
Midlife crisis
Hall of Fame
Sorry, I haven't read through the entire thread but seeing your username wanted to ask you a question (I'll do that at the end). To hopefully add some on-thread content, I experimented with different biomechanics on my serve over the last year or so. I've never been a big server, topping out somewhere short of 115 MPH, which is about average for someone who can pitch a baseball near 80 MPH. I found I could generate more ball speed when my serve ended up with a higher elbow position, due to the swingpath I took to the contact point. By consciously trying to "throw" my arm straight up, I was told my racquet drop/backscratch was deeper and so I had a longer acceleration path to the contact point. Also, because the path is more directly upward, I found I had to consciously try to stop my upper arm to allow my forearm to pronate and thus also transferring momentum towards the racquet.
I got huge serves this way but it destroyed my arm. The violent upward motion sometimes felt like it was hyperextending my upper arm out of the shoulder socket as my elbow straightened, and the shock loading from decelerating my racquet after the contact point was very tough on the muscles in the back of my shoulder.
Being well past the age and clearly without the talent for significantly high level tennis, I gave this motion up for a more arm-friendly motion. Consequently, I probably top out at 110 MPH or less, and my kick serve bounces maybe 8-12 inches lower, but I end up being able to serve every other day or so. I can still pull this out a few times a match, but any more and the labrum complains.
Those who are biomechanically and genetically gifted to be able to do this over the long haul have been truly blessed. My son has been trying a technique pretty similar to this for a few weeks and he's added an easy 10-15 MPH on his serve, but when he goes at it hard this way even he has shoulder soreness and he's only 15 1/2 (but 6' tall and 190 pounds of muscle too).
Okay, so time for the off-topic question that I really wanted to ask. Are you the same gzhpcu as on BAUT?
gzhpcu
Professional
Yup, I am. Great to see another BAUTer playing tennis...
gzhpcu
Professional
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
At the end of the fall, I experimented with creating a little more lag in my delivery, by launching my right shoulder up, and letting my arm follow.
Of course my timing was off, and when I missed it was hell on my arm.
But I hit this one serve, and the ball made a sound, a sound that I have never heard a tennis ball make before. And I knew I was on to something. This coming from a guy who isn't exactly a stranger to hitting hard.
I said I would revisit this in the spring, and I will.
Will keep you guys updated.
J
Midlife crisis
Hall of Fame
Yup, I am. Great to see another BAUTer playing tennis...
Very cool. After I posted, I saw some other of your messages and it was pretty clear that you are one and the same. I've been honored to have access to and to learn from the accomplished people on BAUT such as yourself.
stormholloway
Legend
While I think the percentages are pretty much nonsense, does anyone think there is any advantage to where Roddick's racquet is? He seems to hold it a bit differently in the above position than more traditional servers like Federer, who, at this point, would have his racquet further over the shoulder. My theory is that from Roddick's racquet position, the racquet has longer to travel and therefore more momentum to generate after the legs explode. The opposite extreme would be the players who immediately throw the racquet behind their backs and kind of let it sit there.
Is there something to this or am I talking out of my ass?
Midlife crisis
Hall of Fame
Yeah, that's pretty much the same thing I think. When I use this technique, I deliberately create more shoulder tilt to get my right (hitting) shoulder well below the contact point, so the only way to get the racquet up to the contact point is straight up. Mis-hitting is the thing I'm most scared of when doing this. One bad one and my shoulder is done for the week though.
You're right in that when this works, it seems like it's obviously the way it should be done. Good luck to you in keeping every part of your arm and shoulder together.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Don't know if you have seen the pics of my motion, but I have very steep shoulder tilt, and exceptional racquet drop to begin with, so it isn't as big of a change for me as it sounds like for you.
I felt like I was *very* close to having everything clicking at the end of the summer.
Just looking for that last 5-10% that is going to make my serve take that jump from big, to devastating.
Going to hit now, and will video. Not sure if I will be able to serve since I had to do a head job at work yesterday, and my back is in a state of revolt.
I was hurting friday and in tough shape since this morning, just that staying bent over all day kills me.
But once the blood gets pumping who knows how I will feel.
J
Midlife crisis
Hall of Fame
Sounds like it is a bigger difference from my normal technique than for you, but even as it is, my serve rarely is effectively attacked even when I play up, and my game is going to improve due to better court coverage, faster and better footwork patterns, and learning how to hit more touch shots like those used in effective high level doubles. For me, the risk isn't worth the reward, but for you, I think there's both less risk and more reward. Good luck!
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Worked on my "Serve and Get Passed" game tonite. Ran out of memory card so I am not sure how much I got. One thing I can tell you is that my back is NOT happy with me
.Sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what you need to work on, and a good way to implement it. So best of luck to you.
I have been playing a lot of dubs this winter, and having fun doing it. My game is built for singles, but I do the best I can in dubs, and have been putting up some pretty representitive efforts.
J
charliefedererer
Legend
I think the main reason for the forearm bend in relation to the upper arm is that it allows for one more last second rotation of the forearm around the upper arm, thereby increasing racquet head speed in a more complete kinetic chain. Indeed, the ball toss/aiming point is set up to take advantage of this aspect. The high elbow at the end is a result of this rotation of the forearm on the upper arm. As pointed out before, this motion results in not only more rapid pace, but more topsin as well, thus leading to higher serve percentage going in and a more penetrating shot.
Midlife crisis
Hall of Fame
Worked on my "Serve and Get Passed" game tonite. Ran out of memory card so I am not sure how much I got. One thing I can tell you is that my back is NOT happy with me
Sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what you need to work on, and a good way to implement it. So best of luck to you.
I have been playing a lot of dubs this winter, and having fun doing it. My game is built for singles, but I do the best I can in dubs, and have been putting up some pretty representitive efforts.
J
I'm trying to play more dubs too. My shots just don't have the right length. I'm pretty consistently able to hit groundies 10 feet from the baseline, but if I had to hit a series of groundies that land inside the service line, that's difficult for me. My approach shots don't work for that because they have the wrong trajectory, where I'm trying to get the ball up quickly and then deep into the court whereas I need something that stays higher longer, clears the net, then drops into the court.
It's a tough transition for me since I have rarely ever played dubs, but I realize that after coming back to the game a few years back, that adding this aspect to a singles game is really effective at the level I play.
I'm sure it's posted somewhere, but do you have any vids of your serving and general play? I'm especially interested in the serving. BTW, here's a video I shot when I was doing string testing for TW about a year ago. I have enough variety in the way I can hit my groundies, but the shots themself have little variety in terms of length. My forehand is significantly different now than in the video and my regular shot is now in between the flatter and the spinny swingpaths that I take, but at the time of that video, I had only come back to the game for two or three years after nearly two decades away, and it's still an evolving thing for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KglEDUO9nGQ
Midlife crisis
Hall of Fame
I took a quick look and I have some 50 MB avi files of slow motion action from the 2006 australian open. There's a few that capture people serving, but it doesn't show them at the top of the swing much above the elbow. I've got clips of Roddick, Ljubicic, Bags, and Sharapova (one Sharapova clip is full length). Let me make sure these are okay to distribute and I'll get them posted. It shows what I was trying to say earlier about how when I swing upward, my upper arm basically comes to a full stop at the moment of contact, with the resulting high elbow position after contact.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Let me look, I have a ton of video up.
I will have tonites up later, but it takes me forever to edit it.
J
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
If there is something you are specifically looking for, let me know and I will try to post up a vid of it. But this should give you the general idea. Quoted from another thread where a poster asked to see vids of my serves.
J
Midlife crisis
Hall of Fame
Thanks, J011y!
gzhpcu
Professional
Hey, you are making me blush....
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Midlife crisis
Hall of Fame
Hey, you are making me blush....
It is seriously intended as a sincere compliment. I'd like to think I'm successful in my field and know the work I've put into it to get there. When I see others who are extremely knowledgeable in their fields and are willing to share that knowledge, that in my mind, is a "Really Good Thing".
Especially when I benefit from it!
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Here is tonites video.
http://vimeo.com/4009120
Don't laugh. The S&V thing is a work in progress (That is the P.C. term for things you suck at right?). If it were a downloading file, I think the counter would be at around 3% lol.
J
salsainglesa
Semi-Pro
i dont knowif anyone said this, but i have found that themajority of the controlable force is generated not from the forearm pronation, or wirst snap or anything, that just seems a product of the speed generated from the momentum of teh kynethic chain onto the rotator cuff of the shoulder. Also, the high elbow responds to a quieting of the motion on the arm, like in a whip... the arm stops moving alltogether, and all the force goes to the next hinge. inthis case, pronation.
that is also why the angle of the arm iin correspondence to the body isalmost 90 degrees in the best servers...
as a matter of fact, edberg had the same kind of movement of sampras but, his arm was more behind his body when he stroke the ball... but the movement was athe same... his body was facing the direction he intended to hit at the momentof conttact while sampras' was 45 degrees.
all the forces coincide in the point of contact for sampras... i think it is posible to do this in many diferent configuratins and relation ofthe articulations...
that is also why the angle of the arm iin correspondence to the body isalmost 90 degrees in the best servers...
as a matter of fact, edberg had the same kind of movement of sampras but, his arm was more behind his body when he stroke the ball... but the movement was athe same... his body was facing the direction he intended to hit at the momentof conttact while sampras' was 45 degrees.
all the forces coincide in the point of contact for sampras... i think it is posible to do this in many diferent configuratins and relation ofthe articulations...
salsainglesa
Semi-Pro
onemore thing... if you stop the elbow you generate more angular momentum in thearch of the raquet, hence more spin
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